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Photography beginner
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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So I'm thinking of taking up photography as a hobby but I really don't know what camera to go for. I don't mind spending money if the camera gets really good, clear pics. Are there any photographers out there who can recommend a decent camera? I've done a little research and there's so much choice out there; DSLRs, bridge cameras, mirrorless etc. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Have an old Canon. Think it's an eos 50D. You can probably pick up similar for less than £200.
Haven't touched it for over a year. Only reason I hang on to it is for using a big optical zoom for wildlife. For everything else I use my phone nowadays. |
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By *dd_soxMan
over a year ago
Suffolk |
Buy cheap but decent camera - all brands have tbeir pros and cons (you might not take to it ... it can get expensive).
Go to a camera shop/outlet and try them in your hand, see which feels part of your body.
Canon, Nikon, Sony... you can take decent photos with any of them.
I'd done film before so SLR was an easy choice to make. I tried a bridge csmera and apart from the massive zoom, didnt get on with it... shutter lag etc.
I've moved on to mirrorless - but beware, it can get v expensive... and require TBs of storage
Phone cameras are much better these days - but are limited for small things far away... all depends what you intend to photograph
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I went from semi pro level DSLR with a shit tonne of pro lenses to a mirrorless with two lenses and it transformed my shots.
I spent less time swapping lenses and fiddling with settings and just focus on what i can do with two of them- and the in built focus assist in the camera (Sony L6400) is brilliant and quick to set focus- so you can concentrate on the subject.
Still cost me about £3k for everything, so far from cheap- but you can get the Sony two lens kit for under £2k (i just kept my rather delicious Canon 28-70mm f2.8 lens as my main lens and got a converter- hence the extra wedge)
If you want something a fair bit cheaper in DSLR world, the Canon 700D and its newer brothers are great- or the mk1 6D is a full frame body at a decent price (almost as good as the 5Dmk2 which was a favourite of many pro togs for years) or just check the Nikon alternatives for those, not much difference in quality, more down to preference of control system.
You'll find that a half decent used camera body is quite cheap but a very good used lens can be silly money unless you drop lucky |
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Sony a7rii is a good camera but new will cost 1200 odd without lenses but second hand was around 800 but price should drop soon as they just released a newer one last week.
That's pro level camera but at the lower end of price range and the A7RV is 4k for comparison |
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By *eavenNhellCouple
over a year ago
carrbrook stalybridge |
Dont worry about kit descent cheap dslr and a couple of kit lenses from second hand shop will do you fine .then just go out and practice learn the light triangle and what each alteration affects .i took same shot of an apple on the table lit by window light altered shutter speed then iso then fstops to see what changes they produced learned a lot from that exercise use auto as a guide at first then experiment on manual settings .good luck and have fun what ever you shoot and remember the camera doesent take good pictures you do wether using a topspec dslr or a box brownie . |
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By *edheadjMan
over a year ago
High Wycombe |
Good glass is more important than the camera.
I had a Canon DSLR but downsized to a Fuji with one prime lens. Love it.
If you're just starting out tho, I'd say maybe go for an older canon DSLR and the 50mm 1.8 (nifty fifty) and learn to master that focal range. |
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the camera needs to suit what your taking pictures of , research what you target is and what pros use , also dont forget insurance hiscocks is good and have walk off cover meaning if it gets taken by someone walking off with it while you work it is covered , also your laptop could be added as part of the kit you download it to hope this helps |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"So I'm thinking of taking up photography as a hobby but I really don't know what camera to go for. I don't mind spending money if the camera gets really good, clear pics. Are there any photographers out there who can recommend a decent camera? I've done a little research and there's so much choice out there; DSLRs, bridge cameras, mirrorless etc. "
Hey great ti hear you have an interest in photography , for me it’s been a life passion and in the last 10 years really had time for photoshoots and learning more.
So last year I needed a camera to take to the desert and up mount Siinai that would likely be destroyed by sand and me falling over etc so doesn’t want to pay much. I needed it light and easy to use , and cheap but good quality sensor and option for a range of cheap lens.
I got a Panasonic GX7 for £100 off Gumtree. I haven’t used anything since.
You can’t go wrong with this , it’s so simple to use and good spec, you won’t ever need anything else
I have maybe 15 lens for it now from Street, 12-32 versatile pancake for just £50 , wide angle, zoom 75-150, 150-300, ( all numbers are 4/3 btw) and high end portrait prime lens (was over £1000) .
Get the pancake lens above, tripod for long exposures ( I use Manfretto carbon with different heads ) and spare batteries and you’re set then get out and shoot !  |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"Dont worry about kit descent cheap dslr and a couple of kit lenses from second hand shop will do you fine .then just go out and practice learn the light triangle and what each alteration affects .i took same shot of an apple on the table lit by window light altered shutter speed then iso then fstops to see what changes they produced learned a lot from that exercise use auto as a guide at first then experiment on manual settings .good luck and have fun what ever you shoot and remember the camera doesent take good pictures you do wether using a topspec dslr or a box brownie ."
I think as a beginner the big mistake I made was auto mode , once in its hard to get out. Just learn ISO and exposure compensation from day 1 and put in AP mode.
Then learn S
Then look at histograms
I think that’s all there is to learn
Then stop worrying about tech and learn composition, it’s much more important than tech |
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Firstly you don't mention what type of photography you're interested in, I mean is it modeling ? Landscape ? Nature ? Sports & action ? Different cameras are better suited to different genre of topic, photography can get expensive, but it doesn't have to be that way, my personal view is bodies with traditional type controls are better ( only my opinion though) bodies such as the Fuji XT range, I use an XT4 myself though the XT5 has just been launched *evil laugh* but there's nothing wrong with the older models which when used correctly are very capable devises, Fuji lenses come in 2 price ranges, the XF being more expensive, especially the red badge versions, you may want to consider a brand called viltrox, they are a comparatively new company but are fast gaining a devoted following, as for learning, search YouTube for a series called "photography online" the older episodes from 2020 to mid 22 are informative & educational, though on my view they're starting to run out of ideas now, also look for channels by
Chris Hands
Gary Gough
Atillio Ruffo
Ralph Goldsmith
There are others, Paul Compton & Steve Stains are well known, though both get on my nerves a little, I'm often found wandering around the peak district at weekends with a stone of canera gear strapped to my back, I also enjoy Wales, in particular snowdonia national park & of course coastal areas, anyway I'm rambling on now, enjoy & try not to get sucked off..... sorry I mean sucked in by very expensive flashy gear. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Really good advice everyone, thank you.
I should have mentioned that I plan to take photos of landscapes as I like to take walks at all times of the year but I also enjoy watching sport live so a camera which could work for both would be ideal. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Really good advice everyone, thank you.
I should have mentioned that I plan to take photos of landscapes as I like to take walks at all times of the year but I also enjoy watching sport live so a camera which could work for both would be ideal. "
You'll be wanting two different lenses for those so choose a camera body with interchangeable lenses. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Go for a mirrorless as it is the future. As for the size of the CMOS it reallY doesn’t matter unless you want do portraits or print large
The brand doesn’t matter as any brands will offer great cameras.
What is your budget so I can narrow it down
Pm me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So I'm thinking of taking up photography as a hobby but I really don't know what camera to go for. I don't mind spending money if the camera gets really good, clear pics. Are there any photographers out there who can recommend a decent camera? I've done a little research and there's so much choice out there; DSLRs, bridge cameras, mirrorless etc. "
Depends what you'd like to shoot
I've a full frame DSLR for landscapes and portraits (but wish I went for mirrorless like the fuji xt4)
For wildlife, bridge cameras are great for their powerful zooms, but if you want to be more serious a crop sensor camera with a long lens might be better |
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My advice is to see if your local college has night classes in photography. Or there is an online thingy, called skill share which can help. You would be amazed at the results you can get with a modern mobile phone, and after gaining a little experience with that you should have a good idea of what to step up too.
It is my understanding that Nikon and canon are moving away from dslr to mirrorless so to future proof yourself it would be wise to consider an entry level one of those.
I use a Nikon dslr (mid range) with a number of different lens types, but I’m more of a hobbyist  |
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By *bi HaiveMan
over a year ago
Forum Mod Cheeseville, Somerset |
"Go for a mirrorless as it is the future. As for the size of the CMOS it reallY doesn’t matter unless you want do portraits or print large
The brand doesn’t matter as any brands will offer great cameras.
What is your budget so I can narrow it down
Pm me. "
Mirrorless isn't always the best option for sport. Generally great for portraits and landscapes. Also much more user friendly for the beginner because what you see in the EVF is what you get - every adjustment to shutter speed, aperture and ISO is seen immediately so it's far easier to get the correct exposure. Mastering manual settings on a DSLR is far harder and takes much more practice.
Full frame gives you more scope to crop without losing detail and will work much better in low light due to larger pixels. The difference between a 24MP crop sensor camera and a full frame is huge.
No need to enter the megapixel war and go for the highest number. A D5 or 1DXiii has 20MP. Less than the most common option of 24MP yet both awesome bits of kit. Sure, a 61Mp A7Riv produces beautifully detailed, super sharp photos but can be less impressive than a 12MP A7s when shooting in the dark.
Most people will seldom change brand once they start buying decent lenses as it's the glass that lasts rather than the body and changing systems completely can be bloody expensive. And it's rarely worth upgrading to a new model til you've well and truly battered what you have. All older cameras suited pros on release and were the 'latest and greatest' and they'll still take good images decades later. Technological advances these days are minimal and relate mostly to frame rates, autofocus and video capability, rather than anything necessary to take a decent still image.
My top tip? Never buy new and if you do hit the grey market. They all come off the same production line and will be significantly cheaper.
A |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Go for a mirrorless as it is the future. As for the size of the CMOS it reallY doesn’t matter unless you want do portraits or print large
The brand doesn’t matter as any brands will offer great cameras.
What is your budget so I can narrow it down
Pm me.
Mirrorless isn't always the best option for sport. Generally great for portraits and landscapes. Also much more user friendly for the beginner because what you see in the EVF is what you get - every adjustment to shutter speed, aperture and ISO is seen immediately so it's far easier to get the correct exposure. Mastering manual settings on a DSLR is far harder and takes much more practice.
Full frame gives you more scope to crop without losing detail and will work much better in low light due to larger pixels. The difference between a 24MP crop sensor camera and a full frame is huge.
No need to enter the megapixel war and go for the highest number. A D5 or 1DXiii has 20MP. Less than the most common option of 24MP yet both awesome bits of kit. Sure, a 61Mp A7Riv produces beautifully detailed, super sharp photos but can be less impressive than a 12MP A7s when shooting in the dark.
Most people will seldom change brand once they start buying decent lenses as it's the glass that lasts rather than the body and changing systems completely can be bloody expensive. And it's rarely worth upgrading to a new model til you've well and truly battered what you have. All older cameras suited pros on release and were the 'latest and greatest' and they'll still take good images decades later. Technological advances these days are minimal and relate mostly to frame rates, autofocus and video capability, rather than anything necessary to take a decent still image.
My top tip? Never buy new and if you do hit the grey market. They all come off the same production line and will be significantly cheaper.
A"
Oh yes mirrorless weren’t the best option for sport a few years ago maybe but now with the Sony A1, Canon R3 and Nikon Z9 the game has changed. Plus all brands announced that they won’t make any more DSLR anymore. But you could find decent one as the one you mentioned in second hand and canon has sold more lenses than any brands so Canon would be a great option.
I agree full frame and crop CMOS aren’t on the same level but if you don’t know how to use it in the first place even if you get a medium format, a guy with an iPhone (1 inche sensor) can still do better picture (to some extent).
Yes you should buy them to a trusted retailer. |
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By *bi HaiveMan
over a year ago
Forum Mod Cheeseville, Somerset |
"Go for a mirrorless as it is the future. As for the size of the CMOS it reallY doesn’t matter unless you want do portraits or print large
The brand doesn’t matter as any brands will offer great cameras.
What is your budget so I can narrow it down
Pm me.
Mirrorless isn't always the best option for sport. Generally great for portraits and landscapes. Also much more user friendly for the beginner because what you see in the EVF is what you get - every adjustment to shutter speed, aperture and ISO is seen immediately so it's far easier to get the correct exposure. Mastering manual settings on a DSLR is far harder and takes much more practice.
Full frame gives you more scope to crop without losing detail and will work much better in low light due to larger pixels. The difference between a 24MP crop sensor camera and a full frame is huge.
No need to enter the megapixel war and go for the highest number. A D5 or 1DXiii has 20MP. Less than the most common option of 24MP yet both awesome bits of kit. Sure, a 61Mp A7Riv produces beautifully detailed, super sharp photos but can be less impressive than a 12MP A7s when shooting in the dark.
Most people will seldom change brand once they start buying decent lenses as it's the glass that lasts rather than the body and changing systems completely can be bloody expensive. And it's rarely worth upgrading to a new model til you've well and truly battered what you have. All older cameras suited pros on release and were the 'latest and greatest' and they'll still take good images decades later. Technological advances these days are minimal and relate mostly to frame rates, autofocus and video capability, rather than anything necessary to take a decent still image.
My top tip? Never buy new and if you do hit the grey market. They all come off the same production line and will be significantly cheaper.
A
Oh yes mirrorless weren’t the best option for sport a few years ago maybe but now with the Sony A1, Canon R3 and Nikon Z9 the game has changed. Plus all brands announced that they won’t make any more DSLR anymore. But you could find decent one as the one you mentioned in second hand and canon has sold more lenses than any brands so Canon would be a great option.
I agree full frame and crop CMOS aren’t on the same level but if you don’t know how to use it in the first place even if you get a medium format, a guy with an iPhone (1 inche sensor) can still do better picture (to some extent).
Yes you should buy them to a trusted retailer. "
Great bits of kit but few have got the funds to blow £5k+ on any of those three. And the autofocus isn't five times better than cameras a fifth of the price.
Great if you need to spray and pray with high frame rates but with the file sizes those beasts chuck out you're giving yourself a major headache sifting through a couple of hundred frames from a few seconds of burst to find 'that' image.
May as well just shoot a 4K video and pull an 8MP still frame from that if you can't get your timing right. 
A |
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By *orny PTMan
over a year ago
Peterborough |
Grab your self a cheap second hand compact camera, use a big name, Sony, Fuiji, Cannon etc. Keep this one in your glove box, good for car crashes too.
Then spend about £20-£50 on a bridge camera, again a big brand, Get used to holding it and make sure that you get one with a view finder as sunny days are easier with one, otherwise you could be looking at a 3'5 screen that's gone black in the sun.
I've got a few compacts and bridges, I seem to gravitate to Fuiji. Each to their own.
You'll need to visit a camera shop and see the camera that's right for you the camera that has a menu system you like and buttons in the right places WILL get your results is the one to go for.
Stick to a budget and tell the sales staff what you want to do and most importantly what you don't like.
A good tripod or two, again second hand will be useful.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Go for a mirrorless as it is the future. As for the size of the CMOS it reallY doesn’t matter unless you want do portraits or print large
The brand doesn’t matter as any brands will offer great cameras.
What is your budget so I can narrow it down
Pm me.
Mirrorless isn't always the best option for sport. Generally great for portraits and landscapes. Also much more user friendly for the beginner because what you see in the EVF is what you get - every adjustment to shutter speed, aperture and ISO is seen immediately so it's far easier to get the correct exposure. Mastering manual settings on a DSLR is far harder and takes much more practice.
Full frame gives you more scope to crop without losing detail and will work much better in low light due to larger pixels. The difference between a 24MP crop sensor camera and a full frame is huge.
No need to enter the megapixel war and go for the highest number. A D5 or 1DXiii has 20MP. Less than the most common option of 24MP yet both awesome bits of kit. Sure, a 61Mp A7Riv produces beautifully detailed, super sharp photos but can be less impressive than a 12MP A7s when shooting in the dark.
Most people will seldom change brand once they start buying decent lenses as it's the glass that lasts rather than the body and changing systems completely can be bloody expensive. And it's rarely worth upgrading to a new model til you've well and truly battered what you have. All older cameras suited pros on release and were the 'latest and greatest' and they'll still take good images decades later. Technological advances these days are minimal and relate mostly to frame rates, autofocus and video capability, rather than anything necessary to take a decent still image.
My top tip? Never buy new and if you do hit the grey market. They all come off the same production line and will be significantly cheaper.
A
Oh yes mirrorless weren’t the best option for sport a few years ago maybe but now with the Sony A1, Canon R3 and Nikon Z9 the game has changed. Plus all brands announced that they won’t make any more DSLR anymore. But you could find decent one as the one you mentioned in second hand and canon has sold more lenses than any brands so Canon would be a great option.
I agree full frame and crop CMOS aren’t on the same level but if you don’t know how to use it in the first place even if you get a medium format, a guy with an iPhone (1 inche sensor) can still do better picture (to some extent).
Yes you should buy them to a trusted retailer.
Great bits of kit but few have got the funds to blow £5k+ on any of those three. And the autofocus isn't five times better than cameras a fifth of the price.
Great if you need to spray and pray with high frame rates but with the file sizes those beasts chuck out you're giving yourself a major headache sifting through a couple of hundred frames from a few seconds of burst to find 'that' image.
May as well just shoot a 4K video and pull an 8MP still frame from that if you can't get your timing right.
A"
Oh yes they are very expensive but yes the autofocus is outstanding. Honestly you can’t compare. I have been testing them all and compare to DSLR you definitely can feel the difference. Especially Sony. The fastest and the most accurate autofocus on the market right now. Followed by Nikon I’d say and canon.
You’d have 19 on 20 pictures that are perfectly focused.
But totally pointless to spend that much of money if it is to use a third of the potential of the camera.
I’d personally go for an older fujifilm mirrorless. Cheap X-T20 or XE3 (what I currently use) with a prime. To start with. At least it suits what I do. It wouldn’t be the best option for sport.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It doesn't matter how good the camera is. It's the artist behind it that creates the shots. "
Couldn’t agree more with you.
But if you are creative, good gear will let your take that creativeness to another levels.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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A decent lens is what you need. For a starter I would recommend a canon body & a nifty fifty.. will elevate your game from day one. Also get a subscription to lightroom for post processing. |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"Really good advice everyone, thank you.
I should have mentioned that I plan to take photos of landscapes as I like to take walks at all times of the year but I also enjoy watching sport live so a camera which could work for both would be ideal. "
It doesn’t matter what you shoot. As a beginner you need to ignore most of the advice here. Get a camera that feels right, the mirrorless / four thirds advice is the right advice. Personally I would avoid the Olympus & Sony , too geeky and horrible menus like using a computer instead of a camera. Get a GX7 , you won’t regret it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The first 'proper' camera I got was a Canon EOS 10D. Got it after we'd invited a photographer round (from off Fab funnily enough) to get some shots of Ellen and he showed off all his kit. That was over ten years ago so mirrorless wasn't really a thing then.
My early lenses were mostly old Olympus for which I used adaptors. They weighed a ton but were a cheap way to get started.
I guess it depends on whether you're happy to splash the cash or just want to dip your toe and see how it goes. The advice used to be either Canon or Nikon and you'd basically stick with whichever you chose but I don't know if that's still relevant today.
I still have a DSLR but it hasn't come out of the bag in over a year. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Point is.. if you’re just testing the water, buy a dslr as many more serious folk are selling to go mirrorless, so you can get some decent kit at a good price & see how much you use it.
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The camera doesn’t make the picture, the photographer does. So it doesn’t really matter what you buy. But the advice to buy 2nd hand is sound advice. Spend more on lenses than your camera, cheap lenses are just that. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Great advice and info from all. Thank you. I'm going to go for a mirrorless, as most have suggested already but it sounds like the future too. I'll read up a bit more and then look to treat myself in the next week or so. Any further advice or opinions would be great. |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"Great advice and info from all. Thank you. I'm going to go for a mirrorless, as most have suggested already but it sounds like the future too. I'll read up a bit more and then look to treat myself in the next week or so. Any further advice or opinions would be great. "
Good choice.
Look at lens prices on mpb and don’t get confused with four thirds and micro four thirds , they are different
My lenses for the GX7 will also fit Olympus cameras and vice Versa but I wouldn’t touch Olympus.
Some lens might be compatible on the body but won’t drive the autofocus or AP, not a problem if you want to manually operate that lens.
The good thing on Mpb is you can sell your lens back to them easily. Second hand lens in good condition are great , some will be ranked very good or excellent but with dust particles in chamber , I’ve never had an issue with this.
If buying second had body ask to see a screenshot of the shutter count it’s more important than the age
Get a decent tripod ,and tripod head. I prefer carbon for travel and 4-section for packing in a day bag. My mamfrotto pro geared head weighs a ton but essential for fine adjustments - architecture , landscape. For wind/waves you want a very sturdy tripod.
Think about if you really need waterproof or not - it costs a lot more.
Cable release is useful for long exposure so you don’t nudge the camera.
Silent shutter is good for nervous models |
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It depends on what kind of photography you want to do. The lighting is far more important than the camera or lens. If you want to do landscape or street photography then the lighting is dictated by time of day, weather and your position relative to the light source. Sun, street light or whatever. If this is the case then your whole budget can go on the camera.
If you want to do studio or portrait photography then you'll need lights. You'll need to factor that into your budget, studio photography is about your lighting knowledge far more than camera knowledge.
Start with a second hand entry level DSLR and kit lens, learn how to use it and the 'why' behind the how. Once you understand the fundamentals of photography then you'll be in a more informed position to upgrade if it's something you wish to continue pursuing.
Tip to start with lighting and photography. Big and Soft is best. |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
" If you want to do landscape or street photography then the lighting is dictated by time of day, weather and your position relative to the light source. Sun, street light or whatever. If this is the case then your whole budget can go on the camera.
"
I do a lot of street in African cities and for most of my shots , opportunity & composition is way more important than a bit of noise or over/under exposure.
The way I was taught , by a street pro , if you are moving around a lot in and out of different light settings is put it in AP mode then switch onnauto ISO.
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" If you want to do landscape or street photography then the lighting is dictated by time of day, weather and your position relative to the light source. Sun, street light or whatever. If this is the case then your whole budget can go on the camera.
I do a lot of street in African cities and for most of my shots , opportunity & composition is way more important than a bit of noise or over/under exposure.
The way I was taught , by a street pro , if you are moving around a lot in and out of different light settings is put it in AP mode then switch onnauto ISO.
"
Lighting in photography is so much more than having enough level for exposure. |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
" If you want to do landscape or street photography then the lighting is dictated by time of day, weather and your position relative to the light source. Sun, street light or whatever. If this is the case then your whole budget can go on the camera.
I do a lot of street in African cities and for most of my shots , opportunity & composition is way more important than a bit of noise or over/under exposure.
The way I was taught , by a street pro , if you are moving around a lot in and out of different light settings is put it in AP mode then switch onnauto ISO.
Lighting in photography is so much more than having enough level for exposure. "
Lighting in photography is whatever you want it to be. My photography is art so I make the rules myself |
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" If you want to do landscape or street photography then the lighting is dictated by time of day, weather and your position relative to the light source. Sun, street light or whatever. If this is the case then your whole budget can go on the camera.
I do a lot of street in African cities and for most of my shots , opportunity & composition is way more important than a bit of noise or over/under exposure.
The way I was taught , by a street pro , if you are moving around a lot in and out of different light settings is put it in AP mode then switch onnauto ISO.
Lighting in photography is so much more than having enough level for exposure.
Lighting in photography is whatever you want it to be. My photography is art so I make the rules myself "
You would be well advised to do yourself a favour and learn about lighting. Expression through art is great but you should learn the technical skills of your chosen medium.
Less deflection and more development.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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A little tip.. There are many decent camera body's to choose from, even quality second hand, so my tip is to invest in top quality lenses, obviously as much as your budget can stretch to. After 20 years in the game its a tip i always pass on. Hope that's some help. |
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"A little tip.. There are many decent camera body's to choose from, even quality second hand, so my tip is to invest in top quality lenses, obviously as much as your budget can stretch to. After 20 years in the game its a tip i always pass on. Hope that's some help. "
this |
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