FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Chris Kaba’s death

Chris Kaba’s death

By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

This may be the dumbest thread I ever do considering my views and how people usually get on these threads but I’m really interested in thoughts on this. In terms of how it looks? What wider consequences it has? I know there’s been protests, are those voices even being heard? I feel deflated, am I just being a woke snowflake?(I’m not even joking I feel that deflated).

Please keep it classy. Keep it kind. But please share your thoughts. I feel like I’m living in a bubble and think there may be Justice so have come here to get a reality check.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

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By *hil most chillMan over a year ago

South East & Europe

You're not being a woke snowflake. What happened was terrible, and it looks very bad for the Met, as usual.

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By *atnip make me purrWoman over a year ago

Reading

I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

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By *sBlueWoman over a year ago

Up North

I will wait for the investigation till I pass judgement on this. We don’t know what happened exactly yet

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Definitely not being a snowflake. It very much looks like another case of institutional racism in the Met.

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By *rhugesMan over a year ago

Cardiff

I don't know all the facts. The car was recognized by the police, I think for a fire arm offence. Why was he in the car in the first place?

Did he stop when asked?

How was the shot fired?

It's really easy to point blame when you don't know the facts

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Don't no much about it I'll wait till official evidence comes out but doubt the met either way will win

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By *hil most chillMan over a year ago

South East & Europe

It's also pretty easy to say unarmed people shouldn't be executed by police. What crime had he committed that warranted being shot?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't know all the facts. The car was recognized by the police, I think for a fire arm offence. Why was he in the car in the first place?

Did he stop when asked?

How was the shot fired?

It's really easy to point blame when you don't know the facts"

The car was first rammed and then boxed in when he was shot!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Also shameful that they didn’t inform his family for 11 HOURS!

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

Not sure there is enough detail yet to form any intelligent opinion. It wasn't his car and the car was used in a firearms incident. No firearm was found and Chris was killed by a single shot.policeman suspended. Investigation started. Lots of gaps. And as emotive as it is, probably better to wait until more is known.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 13/09/22 18:34:17]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

With being away on holiday and all the other events going on in the news recently, I’m going to put my hand up and say I haven’t been able to research this properly and don’t know the facts so, accordingly, can’t comment from a position of authority on this.

That doesn’t usually stop me from stepping head first in and making ignorant comments on Fab, but given the obvious sensitive nature of this I’ll withhold for now.

In general terms, and not specifically about this case, where there are two polar points of view on a situation, the reality is usually *somewhere* in the middle of the two, sometimes nearer one view than the other, sometimes plum in the middle.

I’ll watch the thread though and also try and get myself more acquainted with the case and what happened.

Either way it’s another tragic loss of life at a very young age

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Conviction for firearms offence.

Driving car linked to firearms.

Would not stop for police.

Rammed police car with police in it when boxed in.

I'm pleased the police were not hurt doing their job. Let the investigation take its course.

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By *o new WinksMan over a year ago

BSE

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now. "

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

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By *o new WinksMan over a year ago

BSE

"Also shameful that they didn’t inform his family for 11 HOURS! "

There are no excuses for this.

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By *wisted999Man over a year ago

North Bucks

Wait for the investigation. A car can be a deadly weapon and we don’t know what exactly happened at the scene.

I get the anger I get the distrust whether justice will be done.

I was disgusted at Sky saying that perhaps the March were on their way to pay the queen respect. A few minutes on air wouldn’t have gone amiss.

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By *hil most chillMan over a year ago

South East & Europe

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

She can say that and she did. We know it's just her opinion, no one is under any illusion that anything being said in this thread is undisputable fact

It definitely looks like a product of institutional racism though, especially given the Met's murky at best record in this area

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Wait for the investigation. A car can be a deadly weapon and we don’t know what exactly happened at the scene.

I get the anger I get the distrust whether justice will be done.

I was disgusted at Sky saying that perhaps the March were on their way to pay the queen respect. A few minutes on air wouldn’t have gone amiss. "

Protesting the death of a Black man following contact with the police is literally the last thing the news really want to be covering right now. And that’s that on that I guess.

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By *ananaman41Man over a year ago

Dublin

Far too early to offer any educated opinions in what happened.

Do police have bodycams in the UK? Do they have dashcams?

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By *o new WinksMan over a year ago

BSE

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

She can say that and she did. We know it's just her opinion, no one is under any illusion that anything being said in this thread is undisputable fact

It definitely looks like a product of institutional racism though, especially given the Met's murky at best record in this area"

Can you tell me how you have drawn that conclusion ?

What evidence do you have ?

Or is it an assumption based on a perception of the Met ?

I am not saying they are innocent...or at least this one officer isn't...but I'd rather assume so until proven guilty.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Conviction for firearms offence.

Driving car linked to firearms.

Would not stop for police.

Rammed police car with police in it when boxed in.

I'm pleased the police were not hurt doing their job. Let the investigation take its course."

This for me, no one knows the facts at all so leave it to the people to do their jobs and take it where it needs to be a court of law usually.

Truths always come out in the end

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By *hil most chillMan over a year ago

South East & Europe

"Wait for the investigation. A car can be a deadly weapon and we don’t know what exactly happened at the scene.

I get the anger I get the distrust whether justice will be done.

I was disgusted at Sky saying that perhaps the March were on their way to pay the queen respect. A few minutes on air wouldn’t have gone amiss.

Protesting the death of a Black man following contact with the police is literally the last thing the news really want to be covering right now. And that’s that on that I guess. "

It's frustrating how the news makes it look like nothing has happened in the world the last few days, other than a privileged pensioner dying

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I am seriously not holding out hope that the investigation concludes anything but a lawful killing because in all honesty I think in my lifetime, of all the Black men I’ve heard about that died following contact with the police in the UK, not a single officer has been charged.

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

I just can’t help but notice the way that interactions with the police go for Black men in comparison to men of all other races. That feels… alarming? Well unless you suggest or believe that Black men are more this or that I guess…

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By *hil most chillMan over a year ago

South East & Europe

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

She can say that and she did. We know it's just her opinion, no one is under any illusion that anything being said in this thread is undisputable fact

It definitely looks like a product of institutional racism though, especially given the Met's murky at best record in this area

Can you tell me how you have drawn that conclusion ?

What evidence do you have ?

Or is it an assumption based on a perception of the Met ?

I am not saying they are innocent...or at least this one officer isn't...but I'd rather assume so until proven guilty.

But you're not willing to assume the unarmed victim was innocent, ok

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Conviction for firearms offence.

Driving car linked to firearms.

Would not stop for police.

Rammed police car with police in it when boxed in.

I'm pleased the police were not hurt doing their job. Let the investigation take its course.

This for me, no one knows the facts at all so leave it to the people to do their jobs and take it where it needs to be a court of law usually.

Truths always come out in the end "

The truth does not always come out in court at least. As Black communities know from previous police cover ups.

Maybe in 15 years we’ll get an apology if they did wrong though.

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By *ananaman41Man over a year ago

Dublin

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

She can say that and she did. We know it's just her opinion, no one is under any illusion that anything being said in this thread is undisputable fact

It definitely looks like a product of institutional racism though, especially given the Met's murky at best record in this area

Can you tell me how you have drawn that conclusion ?

What evidence do you have ?

Or is it an assumption based on a perception of the Met ?

I am not saying they are innocent...or at least this one officer isn't...but I'd rather assume so until proven guilty.

But you're not willing to assume the unarmed victim was innocent, ok

Well technically the victim isnt subject to any investigation, hence does not require any presumption of innocence

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

By the way this is not a police bashing thread. It’s a thread that comes from being truly deflated at seeing Black men die or be brutalised after interaction with the police and there *always* being a justification.

That’s some rotten luck that Black people seem to have.

I hope I never have a son.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

She can say that and she did. We know it's just her opinion, no one is under any illusion that anything being said in this thread is undisputable fact

It definitely looks like a product of institutional racism though, especially given the Met's murky at best record in this area

Can you tell me how you have drawn that conclusion ?

What evidence do you have ?

Or is it an assumption based on a perception of the Met ?

I am not saying they are innocent...or at least this one officer isn't...but I'd rather assume so until proven guilty.

But you're not willing to assume the unarmed victim was innocent, ok

He may have been. Let's investigate and save uninformed guesses that just inflame the situation.

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By *inger_SnapWoman over a year ago

Hampshire/Dorset

"I don't know all the facts. The car was recognized by the police, I think for a fire arm offence. Why was he in the car in the first place?

Did he stop when asked?

How was the shot fired?

It's really easy to point blame when you don't know the facts"

I'd want to know all this.

Also the Met are dodgy AF, like they're a whole separate entity from the rest of the police.

Also why don't they taser or shoot to incapacitate/wound, instead of kill?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"Conviction for firearms offence.

Driving car linked to firearms.

Would not stop for police.

Rammed police car with police in it when boxed in.

I'm pleased the police were not hurt doing their job. Let the investigation take its course."

My Dad received an official letter from a UK Police force (not his local force), saying a car that he was insured on had been involved in a crime and further action would be taken. My Dad, 82 at the time and with dementia, had not driven for a couple of years and had no vehicle. The vehicle he is alleged to have insured was a vehicle he'd never, ever owned and the region the police force represented is somewhere he's not visited for decades.

Turns out someone had stolen my Dad's identity and had insured vans, cars etc in his name. These vehicles were used to commit crime then dumped.

The point being that it's perfectly possible for an innocent person to become unwittingly embroiled in vehicles or ANPR tags for alleged illegal activity.

My Dad is white and elderly, so maybe they'd have spoken to him before shooting? Who knows?

The person in the car is not always the owner and just because someone's name is associated with a vehicle does not mean they actually have anything to do with it.

I shall reserve further judgment/comment beyond this.

And for the person asking about body worn cameras, yes, the family are asking for this to be released and also footage from a Police helicopter involved.

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By *o new WinksMan over a year ago

BSE

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

She can say that and she did. We know it's just her opinion, no one is under any illusion that anything being said in this thread is undisputable fact

It definitely looks like a product of institutional racism though, especially given the Met's murky at best record in this area

Can you tell me how you have drawn that conclusion ?

What evidence do you have ?

Or is it an assumption based on a perception of the Met ?

I am not saying they are innocent...or at least this one officer isn't...but I'd rather assume so until proven guilty.

But you're not willing to assume the unarmed victim was innocent, ok

I am not assuming anything.

I know the victim did not have a gun.

I know he was shot.

Another wasted life. Which is sad.

Did his actions lead to his being shot ?

Did the officer make a terrible error of judgement?

Or did he want to kill the victim?

I don't know, but I am assuming that the law abiding Police don't go round shooting people unjustifiably.

I will adjust my assumptions as the facts come out.

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By *unkym34Man over a year ago

London

Would there be the same questions if the person shot was white?

What colour was the officer who took the shot?

Was the car being used as a weapon?

Was the driver known to the police?

These are all the questions that will need to be gone through. What happens is people automatically jump to conclusions and form and opinion. I imagine dash cam and bod can and witness statements will help to solve the issue of why this man was shot and wether it was legal or not.

Unfortunately what ever the out come it will probably not change the opinion of those who have already made judgments against the police or against the driver.

We need to get to a point where everyone has more respect for the police and stop when asked and to a point where the right people are working within the force.

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By *unkym34Man over a year ago

London

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

She can say that and she did. We know it's just her opinion, no one is under any illusion that anything being said in this thread is undisputable fact

It definitely looks like a product of institutional racism though, especially given the Met's murky at best record in this area

Can you tell me how you have drawn that conclusion ?

What evidence do you have ?

Or is it an assumption based on a perception of the Met ?

I am not saying they are innocent...or at least this one officer isn't...but I'd rather assume so until proven guilty.

But you're not willing to assume the unarmed victim was innocent, ok

I am not assuming anything.

I know the victim did not have a gun.

I know he was shot.

Another wasted life. Which is sad.

Did his actions lead to his being shot ?

Did the officer make a terrible error of judgement?

Or did he want to kill the victim?

I don't know, but I am assuming that the law abiding Police don't go round shooting people unjustifiably.

I will adjust my assumptions as the facts come out. "
the facts is what everyone should make sure they focus on such as the car was known for recent fire arms offences and did not stop when it was requested too and the driver was subsequently shot and died. They are all the facts we know right now. I think claiming it was a racist killing is not a fact and those comments should be withheld until it is known that is the case.

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By *atnip make me purrWoman over a year ago

Reading

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now.

You can't say that. You may have an opinion but that is all.

An armed cop responding to an incident with a car known to have been involved in firearms offence recently...has all sorts of things going through his head.

I would imagine the race of the driver matters little in this situation.

All the facts aren't known but the family aren't helping by blaming racism.

Hence I think. But thank you for allowing me an opinion. Very gracious.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I am not assuming anything.

I know the victim did not have a gun.

I know he was shot.

Another wasted life. Which is sad.

Did his actions lead to his being shot ?

Did the officer make a terrible error of judgement?

Or did he want to kill the victim?

I don't know, but I am assuming that the law abiding Police don't go round shooting people unjustifiably.

I will adjust my assumptions as the facts come out. the facts is what everyone should make sure they focus on such as the car was known for recent fire arms offences and did not stop when it was requested too and the driver was subsequently shot and died. They are all the facts we know right now. I think claiming it was a racist killing is not a fact and those comments should be withheld until it is known that is the case. "

I can’t speak for everyone here but I can say that acknowledging the way that race seems to impact the use of force (be it by taser or other) does not mean that every murder of a Black man is racist or that officers maliciously go out to harm Black people (unless Liam Neeson works for them). It’s interesting, actually that’s not the word but it’s something, that race seems to impact your interactions with the police he it how much more likely you are to interact with them willingly or unwillingly and also the outcomes of those interactions.

We don’t know that this case was racist, no. But it does force us to remember the way that the met interact with Black people today and how they have historically as well as the fact that in almost All cases over say, the last seven decades, never resulting in any kind of ‘Justice’ that grieving families would be happy with (officers in prison for the fact a family have lost a life).

Possibly an emotive response here but I do think that’s what is often meant when considering race in these incidents. Not that the officer was Liam Neeeson.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Conviction for firearms offence.

Driving car linked to firearms.

Would not stop for police.

Rammed police car with police in it when boxed in.

I'm pleased the police were not hurt doing their job. Let the investigation take its course.

Turns out someone had stolen my Dad's identity and had insured vans, cars etc in his name. These vehicles were used to commit crime then dumped.

The point being that it's perfectly possible for an innocent person to become unwittingly embroiled in vehicles or ANPR tags for alleged illegal activity.

My Dad is white and elderly, so maybe they'd have spoken to him before shooting? Who knows?

The person in the car is not always the owner and just because someone's name is associated with a vehicle does not mean they actually have anything to do with it.

I shall reserve further judgment/comment beyond this.

And for the person asking about body worn cameras, yes, the family are asking for this to be released and also footage from a Police helicopter involved. "

If your Dad had stopped when asked rather than drive off at high speed then rammed a police car, of course he would not have been shot! Thousands of people of every age and race are stopped every day by the police. Police fatal shootings average 2 a year.

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By *ananaman41Man over a year ago

Dublin

"I am not assuming anything.

I know the victim did not have a gun.

I know he was shot.

Another wasted life. Which is sad.

Did his actions lead to his being shot ?

Did the officer make a terrible error of judgement?

Or did he want to kill the victim?

I don't know, but I am assuming that the law abiding Police don't go round shooting people unjustifiably.

Possibly an emotive response here but I do think that’s what is often meant when considering race in these incidents. Not that the officer was Liam Neeeson. "

Im not sure why you need to drag liam neesons name through the mud to be honest. We're all familiar with that interview and i dont think anybody seriously thinks the man has a racist bone in his body. Unnecessary to bring him into this i think

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By *tooveMan over a year ago

belfast

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now. "

The police have shot plenty of white men.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"Conviction for firearms offence.

Driving car linked to firearms.

Would not stop for police.

Rammed police car with police in it when boxed in.

I'm pleased the police were not hurt doing their job. Let the investigation take its course.

Turns out someone had stolen my Dad's identity and had insured vans, cars etc in his name. These vehicles were used to commit crime then dumped.

The point being that it's perfectly possible for an innocent person to become unwittingly embroiled in vehicles or ANPR tags for alleged illegal activity.

My Dad is white and elderly, so maybe they'd have spoken to him before shooting? Who knows?

The person in the car is not always the owner and just because someone's name is associated with a vehicle does not mean they actually have anything to do with it.

I shall reserve further judgment/comment beyond this.

And for the person asking about body worn cameras, yes, the family are asking for this to be released and also footage from a Police helicopter involved.

Honestly, if a police officer had somehow ID'd my Dad and tried to stop him or speak to him in his current state, I can't guarantee he'd cooperate. He's deaf, he has dementia, he can't follow a sequence of instructions and he would always assume he's done nothing wrong (because that's true) and so likely to think that the sirens/shouting or whatever, related to someone else.

My Dad currently struggles to understand the rules of queuing in a shop or that you can't just decide to turn up somewhere and expect an appointment immediately, so it's actually possible he'd initially get himself into trouble if police told him to do XYZ.

He probably wouldn't have been driving a vehicle because we confiscated his car but actually, his license still exists (I don't have the power to revoke it) so he could theoretically still hire a car, if someone is daft enough to do that for him.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

‘Anybody’, as in any single person, feels like a stretch. But without derailing the thread further than you chose to, I’ll just clarify that my use of him was in the context of- no, I don’t think many officers go out looking for a Black man to start violence with as Neeson was that night. I thought it a good example actually.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"I think the family are totally correct that if their son had been white he wouldn't be dead now. "

I think it’s probably an assessment that could even be supported by statistics on use of force against Black men.

But I feel pain at the thought of what they are going through right now. And the way they’ve been dealt with by the police. At least I feel that if their son was White, that they’d have known about his death sooner. But of course that’s just my opinion before anyone jumps on me.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Also shameful that they didn’t inform his family for 11 HOURS! "

Feels very Mark Duggan does that part. There’s at least some consistency from them there.

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By *coobyBoobyDooWoman over a year ago

Markfield

Under what circumstances is a met officer allowed to fire shots? Were those circumstances in effect during this incident? If not, then it’s potentially murder imo. I don’t care who was ramming who in what vehicle nor what any person driving had been charged with previously.

If there was not just cause to fire shots then shots should not have been fired.

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By *tooveMan over a year ago

belfast

"I am seriously not holding out hope that the investigation concludes anything but a lawful killing because in all honesty I think in my lifetime, of all the Black men I’ve heard about that died following contact with the police in the UK, not a single officer has been charged.

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death.

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By *inaTitzTV/TS over a year ago

Titz Towers, North Notts

It's a total mess and I feel sorry for his family.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death. "

As someone that’s never been in a gang, went to school, got good grades, went to uni and now works full time but has also been stopped by the police I can truly say that even not acting like a gangster is little help tbh.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"Under what circumstances is a met officer allowed to fire shots? Were those circumstances in effect during this incident? If not, then it’s potentially murder imo. I don’t care who was ramming who in what vehicle nor what any person driving had been charged with previously.

If there was not just cause to fire shots then shots should not have been fired. "

Hence... Wait for the investigation. Then someone will know. At the moment it's mostly guesswork and some of it is very unhelpful and inflammatory

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By *unkym34Man over a year ago

London

If there was not just cause to fire shots then shots should not have been fired. "
if a vehicle is being used as a weapon is that just cause to protect yourself and fire a shot or should you leave yourself open to be murdered? This is the choice a officer may have to make

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

Wasn’t the car known to of been involved in a firearms incident days before ?

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death. "

There's a massive gang culture up north too, with lots of recent firearms incidents in Liverpool recently, for example. The protagonists appear to be white in these cases. We don't seem to have to same sort of rate of police-initiated shootings (of people of any race or colour). I don't know whether that means anything or not, but northern white gangs seem to be going on the offensive again, in Salford, Liverpool and other places. We've had a spell with much less gang related violence up here. Or at least that's what it feels like.

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By *unkym34Man over a year ago

London

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death.

Plus, the overpolicing of Black communities is not done with view of helping or protecting those communities. It also is a hostile relationship particularly in places like Tottenham for example and other heavily Black populated areas in London given the historical relationship the police have created themselves through murder and other racist behaviours. "
I did all of those and over the years have been stopped by the police on many occasions many occasions I’ve been searched. Guess what I just got on and cooperated

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By *tooveMan over a year ago

belfast

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death.

I know that but the decent ones don't get the attention. They're just normal if you get me.

I've been stop and searched loads over the years, had to fill in forms when travelling to the mainland. Just because of where I was from and who I grew up with.

Even TV programs made by black people just show the bad aspects and shite music*.

This isn't something that will change soon, if ever. Unfortunately.

*By shite music I mean rap and soul and funky.

Not trying to be offensive just how I see it.

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By *tooveMan over a year ago

belfast

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death.

Really? The main gangs up north shooting people aren't white.

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death.

Really? The main gangs up north shooting people aren't white. "

The people suspected of the recent spate of shootings in Liverpool are white and this has also been the case in historic shootings too. The gangs that still run semi riot in parts of Salford and who committed several very well publicised shootings are and were white. Check out Paul Massey and the Noonan family, for starters.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death.

Plus, the overpolicing of Black communities is not done with view of helping or protecting those communities. It also is a hostile relationship particularly in places like Tottenham for example and other heavily Black populated areas in London given the historical relationship the police have created themselves through murder and other racist behaviours. I did all of those and over the years have been stopped by the police on many occasions many occasions I’ve been searched. Guess what I just got on and cooperated "

Where did I say I didn’t co-operate? Or is this at those that resist this form of policing? Tbh I think for many, when it’s bordering on harassment, being stopped multiple times a day and or week and it affects your life, it’s fair to grow frustrated and fed up. Particularly because this form of policing is targeted at specific racial groups more than others. Particularly because these stops of those discussed racial groups are more likely to include the use of force and also because young people from those communities are extremely aware of what interactions with police officers tend to lead to.

Wonderful that it didn’t bother you but given that this policing has been criticised by so many people and even a former (Tory lol) PM, I do actually think criticism of it it at least its implementation is fair and valid.

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By *tooveMan over a year ago

belfast

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death.

Really? The main gangs up north shooting people aren't white.

The noonans were absolute scum. Rapists and murderers.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Conviction for firearms offence.

Driving car linked to firearms.

Would not stop for police.

Rammed police car with police in it when boxed in.

I'm pleased the police were not hurt doing their job. Let the investigation take its course.

This for me, no one knows the facts at all so leave it to the people to do their jobs and take it where it needs to be a court of law usually.

Truths always come out in the end "

Well said , don’t get bogged down with the scum of the press

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

It seems the car wasn’t his I wonder if he had insurance and a license why haven’t these details been released yet

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I know that but the decent ones don't get the attention. They're just normal if you get me.

I've been stop and searched loads over the years, had to fill in forms when travelling to the mainland. Just because of where I was from and who I grew up with.

Even TV programs made by black people just show the bad aspects and shite music*.

This isn't something that will change soon, if ever. Unfortunately.

*By shite music I mean rap and soul and funky.

Not trying to be offensive just how I see it. "
I think this discussion has been good. I respectfully disagree with some of the points made and whose responsibility it is to change the relationship between police and community for the better. I know you don’t mean to offend and thank you, honestly, for that.

We’re off topic quite a bit now and I’ve participated in that tbf but I am pretty keen to get back to the OP

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"It seems the car wasn’t his I wonder if he had insurance and a license why haven’t these details been released yet "

Are they relevant to his subsequent death?

That’s a genuine question by the way- I’m aware when typed things come off differently.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Conviction for firearms offence.

Driving car linked to firearms.

Would not stop for police.

Rammed police car with police in it when boxed in.

I'm pleased the police were not hurt doing their job. Let the investigation take its course.

This for me, no one knows the facts at all so leave it to the people to do their jobs and take it where it needs to be a court of law usually.

Truths always come out in the end

Well said , don’t get bogged down with the scum of the press "

Ah. Fancy seeing you guys here

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

But I can’t help but feel like one has to be more hopeful and ultimately more trusting in the police than I am.

In London there seems to be a big gang culture among young black youths. Therefore you act like a gangster you get treated like one.

Though I would say it is a small minority are in gangs but they're the "interesting" ones killing each other and singing and rapping about killing each other.

The gangs tend to hate the policy, probably with reason, so policing in areas with a lot of black people will be difficult.

It's shite and should not be happening but until something changes this will not be the last death.

Really? The main gangs up north shooting people aren't white.

The noonans were absolute scum. Rapists and murderers. "

From the Liverpool Echo newspaper about the relatively recent actions of gangs in the North, linked to Massey and Noonans et.al. This is almost certainly ongoing and involves many NW towns/cities.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/gangs-behind-murders-john-kinsella-19273984.amp

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By *arlomaleMan over a year ago

darlington

"It seems the car wasn’t his I wonder if he had insurance and a license why haven’t these details been released yet

Are they relevant to his subsequent death?

That’s a genuine question by the way- I’m aware when typed things come off differently. "
I’m sure it’s relevant to the investigation and why not release the details in regards to insurance license etc etc

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

If there was not just cause to fire shots then shots should not have been fired.

Hence... Wait for the investigation. Then someone will know. At the moment it's mostly guesswork and some of it is very unhelpful and inflammatory"

I just want to stress that the point of this thread was not to solve the murder. Even if it has become that. It was more a ‘am I going mad?’ Because it’s obviously been lost in the news (understandable I guess). And also I wanted to gain the perspectives of people of whether protestors are being heard? What kinds of feelings has this incident brought up for people?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"It seems the car wasn’t his I wonder if he had insurance and a license why haven’t these details been released yet

Are they relevant to his subsequent death?

That’s a genuine question by the way- I’m aware when typed things come off differently. I’m sure it’s relevant to the investigation and why not release the details in regards to insurance license etc etc "

Relevant I guess to the stop. Though I don’t think relevant to whether or not lethal force should or shouldn’t have been applied. And I don’t think releasing it does any good to finding out whether he was killed lawfully or not, maybe just about whether he was breaking the law that is not punishable by death.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If there was not just cause to fire shots then shots should not have been fired.

Hence... Wait for the investigation. Then someone will know. At the moment it's mostly guesswork and some of it is very unhelpful and inflammatory

I had heard nothing about the case here. Whilst not every murder in the UK would make it on the news here. A price shooting sparking protests usually would. As a disclaimer I haven't actually consumed much media news this week so it may have been reported but certainly not to the degree previous incidents would have been.

I've no idea about the specifics of the case but it's shot you feel so deflated as I'm sure so many of your peers do. Regardless of the specifics and outcome of this case there is clear justified mistrust of the authorities which is a viscous cycle on both sides.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

I do always appreciate your comments in threads, Cork!

Thank you

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By *ealitybitesMan over a year ago

Belfast

If there was not just cause to fire shots then shots should not have been fired.

Hence... Wait for the investigation. Then someone will know. At the moment it's mostly guesswork and some of it is very unhelpful and inflammatory

This is the first I've heard of this case so I can't comment on anything bar the fact this story has not been doing the rounds here at all. I wasn't aware of the shooting or the protests until reading this thread.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

Without all the facts its hard. But I wonder what folks expect police to do when a car that had been used in a firearms incident a few days earlier comes to their attention again and doesn't stop when pursued .? Now that doesn't prejudge anything that followed but if the gun crimes are going to stop you'd (I'd) hope police would apprehend anyone so involved. We don't want to let them run free do we?

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Without all the facts its hard. But I wonder what folks expect police to do when a car that had been used in a firearms incident a few days earlier comes to their attention again and doesn't stop when pursued .? Now that doesn't prejudge anything that followed but if the gun crimes are going to stop you'd (I'd) hope police would apprehend anyone so involved. We don't want to let them run free do we? "

I can’t pretend to have the answers. But I can say that for a family to hear (some hours later) that a loved one was shot by the police whilst unarmed, you can understand lots of the anger and frustration. Is it so hard to envision a world in which Chris Kaba lives? If the answer to that is yes- as in yes it’s so hard to imagine, then sigh. More deflation.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

If not for twitter I’d probably not have heard it either. But I follow some gems on there. Including a journalist that has covered the story from the beginning

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

It needs investigating for sure. At the moment there's a lot of inflammatory (no surprise) media. And it fits the narrative that the met have created themselves way too easily. But.... You'd hope had he pulled over when so instructed the outcome might have been different. Either way yes agree... For now I can understand why some people are inflamed by the situation.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think it's another loss of life that could have possibly been avoided.

Winston

PS, You're not going mad and your not a snowflake.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If not for twitter I’d probably not have heard it either. But I follow some gems on there. Including a journalist that has covered the story from the beginning "

It’s on the front page of the BBC News website tbf right now, I don’t know how much coverage was given at the time of the initial shooting though?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Far too early to offer any educated opinions in what happened.

Do police have bodycams in the UK? Do they have dashcams? "

They have both body cams and dash cams, as well as any cctv that may or may not be in working order. All these will be view as part of the IOPC investigation.

While I agree it’s too early to offer judgement, the reported facts are sad and horrific. A tragic loss regardless of the circumstances around at fault - at the end of the day, no weapon was found at the scene and my heart literally bleeds not only for his family and friends, but for his unborn child who will never get to meet their dad. I just feel deflated by the story too.

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By *tylebender03Man over a year ago

Manchester

It is awful, in no way are you a woke snowflake, unfortunately it’s another familiar story of racism within the police

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If not for twitter I’d probably not have heard it either. But I follow some gems on there. Including a journalist that has covered the story from the beginning

It’s on the front page of the BBC News website tbf right now, I don’t know how much coverage was given at the time of the initial shooting though? "

I don’t watch live news, but it was definitely reported by a couple of online newspapers at the time.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Lots of speculation and accusations so a few facts:

Since 1990 78 people have been fatally shot by police in the UK, 33 in London so almost exactly one a year on average. In recent years most of those in London have been terrorists such as the London Bridge attackers.

By comparison over 1000 people are fatally shot by police each year in the US.

The evidence is clear that firearms are used incredibly rarely and carefully by UK police, in situations of real or perceived danger to themselves or the public that most of us could never imagine.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Far too early to offer any educated opinions in what happened.

Do police have bodycams in the UK? Do they have dashcams?

They have both body cams and dash cams, as well as any cctv that may or may not be in working order. All these will be view as part of the IOPC investigation.

You get it.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

"Lots of speculation and accusations so a few facts:

By comparison over 1000 people are fatally shot by police each year in the US.

The evidence is clear that firearms are used incredibly rarely and carefully by UK police, in situations of real or perceived danger to themselves or the public that most of us could never imagine.

Just to clarify as well that use of force by the police that is disproportionately applied is not simply the use of firearms or is it encounters that lead to death.

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By (user no longer on site) OP over a year ago

If not for twitter I’d probably not have heard it either. But I follow some gems on there. Including a journalist that has covered the story from the beginning

It’s on the front page of the BBC News website tbf right now, I don’t know how much coverage was given at the time of the initial shooting though? "

I didn’t get a news update on my phone and my other main source of info is twitter tbf but can’t dispute whether it was reported or not. Tbh that’s not really the point of the thread either.

Again this reads short/sharp but it’s not intended like that

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I don't know all the facts. The car was recognized by the police, I think for a fire arm offence. Why was he in the car in the first place?

Did he stop when asked?

How was the shot fired?

It's really easy to point blame when you don't know the facts

I'd want to know all this.

Also the Met are dodgy AF, like they're a whole separate entity from the rest of the police.

Also why don't they taser or shoot to incapacitate/wound, instead of kill?"

There are way too few facts available to second guess this but the practical application of lethal force, hypothetically, is easier to address. Tasers don't work through glass or steel. They also, ideally, need two separate contact points on the body. this is difficult to achieve if the subject is sitting in a car. That doesn't mean you automatically revert to lethal force.

If lethal force is justified, shooting to incapacitate is incredibly difficult, particularly in a dynamic situation. Also, it may not negate the lethal threat and still leave others at risk.

As we don't even know at this point, whether the shot was fired deliberately in response to a perceived threat, or just a screw up, it's academic. Which is, of course, no comfort to the grieving.

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

I haven't read the thread so may be repeating things.

The reporting of the initial shooting seems to be minimal, certainly I had missed it.

To be shot for a failure to stop is complete disproportionate so anyone saying he should have stopped, or if he has nothing to hide etc needs to consider proportionality.

For the IOPC to instigate a homicide investigation is unusual and it will be interesting to see how it develops. But no police officer has yet to be found guilty of causing death while on duty so I doubt that will change.

Some of the complaints the family are concerning will do nothing to help the reputation of the MET which is already an embarrassment. But if the police have decided he is a wrong 'un who deserved it and feel their colleague is facing unjust charges the family will feel that

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I haven't read the thread so may be repeating things.

The reporting of the initial shooting seems to be minimal, certainly I had missed it.

To be shot for a failure to stop is complete disproportionate so anyone saying he should have stopped, or if he has nothing to hide etc needs to consider proportionality.

IOPC investigate all police related deaths, even if someone has died following recent police contact.

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By *ohn KanakaMan over a year ago

Not all that North of North London

"I haven't read the thread so may be repeating things.

The reporting of the initial shooting seems to be minimal, certainly I had missed it.

To be shot for a failure to stop is complete disproportionate so anyone saying he should have stopped, or if he has nothing to hide etc needs to consider proportionality.

IOPC investigate all police related deaths, even if someone has died following recent police contact."

Having worked alongside the IOPC in death in custody cases I'm fully aware of that.

So I'll repeat the key bit: "for the IOPC to insigate a homicide investigation is unusual".

The investigation part is standard. Declaring it a homicide investigation isn't

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I haven't read the thread so may be repeating things.

The reporting of the initial shooting seems to be minimal, certainly I had missed it.

To be shot for a failure to stop is complete disproportionate so anyone saying he should have stopped, or if he has nothing to hide etc needs to consider proportionality.

IOPC investigate all police related deaths, even if someone has died following recent police contact.

Having worked alongside the IOPC in death in custody cases I'm fully aware of that.

So I'll repeat the key bit: "for the IOPC to insigate a homicide investigation is unusual".

The investigation part is standard. Declaring it a homicide investigation isn't "

We don't have 'homicide' in the UK, we have murder or manslaughter.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I haven't read the thread so may be repeating things.

The reporting of the initial shooting seems to be minimal, certainly I had missed it.

To be shot for a failure to stop is complete disproportionate so anyone saying he should have stopped, or if he has nothing to hide etc needs to consider proportionality.

IOPC investigate all police related deaths, even if someone has died following recent police contact.

Having worked alongside the IOPC in death in custody cases I'm fully aware of that.

So I'll repeat the key bit: "for the IOPC to insigate a homicide investigation is unusual".

The investigation part is standard. Declaring it a homicide investigation isn't

We don't have 'homicide' in the UK, we have murder or manslaughter. "

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/homicide-murder-and-manslaughter

Shit someone should really tell the Crown Prosecution Service