FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Why are men in crisis? Part 2
Why are men in crisis? Part 2
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"The original thread talked about lack of attachment in young US men. And the paucity of sex/relationships for a significant number of individuals. My question arising from this is - how differently do men and women feel about sex? And how much does the lack of intimacy (not necessarily sex) impact the sexes? Men and women have hugely different social lives, friendship types etc. Is it possible that a sexual or romantic relationship for men provides so much more in some areas than it does for women? Fulfills a need for attachment men don't find in close friendships for example?" Here is a honest opinion I am here it's strange how all my female friends have men that are 15 to 20 years older. The general excuse I get is "All they want to do is play videogames". | |||
"The original thread talked about lack of attachment in young US men. And the paucity of sex/relationships for a significant number of individuals. My question arising from this is - how differently do men and women feel about sex? And how much does the lack of intimacy (not necessarily sex) impact the sexes? Men and women have hugely different social lives, friendship types etc. Is it possible that a sexual or romantic relationship for men provides so much more in some areas than it does for women? Fulfills a need for attachment men don't find in close friendships for example?" I think theres a lot to that. Men benefit from structure, habit, taking responsibility. Being in a relationship fosters all of that | |||
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"I thought I'd posted a comment about why comparing US stats with the UK might not be appropriate, but maybe I forgot to press post?! I wrote that the USA has a strong thread of evangelical Christian sentiment running through it and the pro celibacy/anti sex outside marriage thing is promoted in schools and colleges very widely. I think attitudes to casual relationships are very different in the USA than the UK. There's an article in the Guardian today actually, about Brits abroad and their experience dating/finding relationships. The commentators there do describe their experience in the USA as different to the UK in many ways. " Yet protestant is the dominate religion. Evangelical is in what we call the bible belt. | |||
"I thought I'd posted a comment about why comparing US stats with the UK might not be appropriate, but maybe I forgot to press post?! I wrote that the USA has a strong thread of evangelical Christian sentiment running through it and the pro celibacy/anti sex outside marriage thing is promoted in schools and colleges very widely. I think attitudes to casual relationships are very different in the USA than the UK. There's an article in the Guardian today actually, about Brits abroad and their experience dating/finding relationships. The commentators there do describe their experience in the USA as different to the UK in many ways. Yet protestant is the dominate religion. Evangelical is in what we call the bible belt. " I'd suggest that the church (protestant or otherwise) has become of limited relevance to the vast majority of the population of the UK. Of course, we have members of other non Christian religious groups, who may have comparatively conservative views on sex etc, but again, this covers only a fairly small minority of the population. | |||
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"I read some very interesting large scale research earlier this year for work. Again it is from the US but done by their Navy on erectile dysfunction in under 26 yo which has become a massive thing in the last 5-10 years! Shocking reading but they were linking it to social media and porn, literally linking time & content viewing to ED in young men " More studies regarding male infertility are shocking reading, the male infertility crisis is being closely monitored following an influential 2017 meta-analysis that found that sperm counts had declined by 52.4% between 1973 and 2011 in western societies. Though not one single reason was found more a complex mixture of a few. All these things coupled with lots of other reasons such as social media influences are quite damaging reading for the future of relationships in younger people, let alone meeting people in our older selves! | |||
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"If i couldnt attract anyone id soon realise i had work to do and do something about it " It's not as easy as that "to do something about it" unfortunately. | |||
" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. " Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. | |||
" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. " There are many books and much research on how men and women are wired differently when it comes to finding partners! | |||
" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. There are many books and much research on how men and women are wired differently when it comes to finding partners! " I'm aware of a lot of discredited evolutionary psychology. I'm trying to disentangle the sociology and any biology. Nature, nurture. Because the bit I quoted feels like saying, yes, Swing, you suffered that alone and that was fine, but we need to solve the problems for men going through the same. I think men and women should be given very similar, if not identical, assistance with this kind of thing. | |||
" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. There are many books and much research on how men and women are wired differently when it comes to finding partners! I'm aware of a lot of discredited evolutionary psychology. I'm trying to disentangle the sociology and any biology. Nature, nurture. Because the bit I quoted feels like saying, yes, Swing, you suffered that alone and that was fine, but we need to solve the problems for men going through the same. I think men and women should be given very similar, if not identical, assistance with this kind of thing." The problems with trying to meet people in today's world here is the same for all but evolutionary changes are happening incredibly quickly and making the divides almost bigger | |||
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" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. There are many books and much research on how men and women are wired differently when it comes to finding partners! I'm aware of a lot of discredited evolutionary psychology. I'm trying to disentangle the sociology and any biology. Nature, nurture. Because the bit I quoted feels like saying, yes, Swing, you suffered that alone and that was fine, but we need to solve the problems for men going through the same. I think men and women should be given very similar, if not identical, assistance with this kind of thing. The problems with trying to meet people in today's world here is the same for all but evolutionary changes are happening incredibly quickly and making the divides almost bigger " I'm unaware of any definitive, documented sex differences, though, that mean that when it happens to women it's personal and when it happens to men it's a societal crisis. | |||
" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. There are many books and much research on how men and women are wired differently when it comes to finding partners! I'm aware of a lot of discredited evolutionary psychology. I'm trying to disentangle the sociology and any biology. Nature, nurture. Because the bit I quoted feels like saying, yes, Swing, you suffered that alone and that was fine, but we need to solve the problems for men going through the same. I think men and women should be given very similar, if not identical, assistance with this kind of thing. The problems with trying to meet people in today's world here is the same for all but evolutionary changes are happening incredibly quickly and making the divides almost bigger I'm unaware of any definitive, documented sex differences, though, that mean that when it happens to women it's personal and when it happens to men it's a societal crisis. " Nope, as said is the problems are the same for all! Changing quickly making things way more difficult ... for all! | |||
"I read some very interesting large scale research earlier this year for work. Again it is from the US but done by their Navy on erectile dysfunction in under 26 yo which has become a massive thing in the last 5-10 years! Shocking reading but they were linking it to social media and porn, literally linking time & content viewing to ED in young men " 100% agree. the we live i a world run my the internet and social media, in my day we didn't have it. so to interact with anyone you had to go out. I'm old school and believe that to strike up a conversation with someone. it's best done face to face or at the very least by talking on the telephone. | |||
" Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. " Interesting... Why do you think there's a huge disparity in the male to female ratio on Fab? Do you really think that's solely down to sociological differences or partly because we're wired differently, men express their needs in a different way? | |||
" Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. Interesting... Why do you think there's a huge disparity in the male to female ratio on Fab? Do you really think that's solely down to sociological differences or partly because we're wired differently, men express their needs in a different way?" I do think it's largely sociological, the policing of ways in which women are allowed to publicly express sexuality. Slut shaming and the like. I think it would need to be studied more closely for definitive answers though. Which is why I'm asking for evidence. | |||
"I read some very interesting large scale research earlier this year for work. Again it is from the US but done by their Navy on erectile dysfunction in under 26 yo which has become a massive thing in the last 5-10 years! Shocking reading but they were linking it to social media and porn, literally linking time & content viewing to ED in young men 100% agree. the we live i a world run my the internet and social media, in my day we didn't have it. so to interact with anyone you had to go out. I'm old school and believe that to strike up a conversation with someone. it's best done face to face or at the very least by talking on the telephone. " The art of conversation is dying sadly. I wrote something along those lines on part 1 of the thread. About ED in younger men, I do believe porn is a big part of that but I also believe the diet’s especially in the USA. There are lots of studies on that about the lack of nutrition in the food these days and lots of ingredients that have been added that mess with hormones decreasing testosterone and increasing estrogen. | |||
"I thought I'd posted a comment about why comparing US stats with the UK might not be appropriate, but maybe I forgot to press post?! I wrote that the USA has a strong thread of evangelical Christian sentiment running through it and the pro celibacy/anti sex outside marriage thing is promoted in schools and colleges very widely. I think attitudes to casual relationships are very different in the USA than the UK. There's an article in the Guardian today actually, about Brits abroad and their experience dating/finding relationships. The commentators there do describe their experience in the USA as different to the UK in many ways. " You did post that, I remember | |||
" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. There are many books and much research on how men and women are wired differently when it comes to finding partners! I'm aware of a lot of discredited evolutionary psychology. I'm trying to disentangle the sociology and any biology. Nature, nurture. Because the bit I quoted feels like saying, yes, Swing, you suffered that alone and that was fine, but we need to solve the problems for men going through the same. I think men and women should be given very similar, if not identical, assistance with this kind of thing. The problems with trying to meet people in today's world here is the same for all but evolutionary changes are happening incredibly quickly and making the divides almost bigger I'm unaware of any definitive, documented sex differences, though, that mean that when it happens to women it's personal and when it happens to men it's a societal crisis. Nope, as said is the problems are the same for all! Changing quickly making things way more difficult ... for all! " So why then is a woman not getting sex dismissed as being very different to a man not getting sex? Me not getting sex was my fault, but men not getting sex is a social crisis? It just screams of entitlement. | |||
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" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. There are many books and much research on how men and women are wired differently when it comes to finding partners! I'm aware of a lot of discredited evolutionary psychology. I'm trying to disentangle the sociology and any biology. Nature, nurture. Because the bit I quoted feels like saying, yes, Swing, you suffered that alone and that was fine, but we need to solve the problems for men going through the same. I think men and women should be given very similar, if not identical, assistance with this kind of thing. The problems with trying to meet people in today's world here is the same for all but evolutionary changes are happening incredibly quickly and making the divides almost bigger I'm unaware of any definitive, documented sex differences, though, that mean that when it happens to women it's personal and when it happens to men it's a societal crisis. Nope, as said is the problems are the same for all! Changing quickly making things way more difficult ... for all! So why then is a woman not getting sex dismissed as being very different to a man not getting sex? Me not getting sex was my fault, but men not getting sex is a social crisis? It just screams of entitlement." Most likely just because women have been seen as just sex for babies and/or we go off it (stereotyping/generalising) whereas men have always been judged as more highly sexed ie always thinking about/looking. Same as, in the past, if a lady slept around she was a slag whereas if a man did he was a stud ... it's just how many people see things through conditioning therefore a lady doesn't need sex whereas a man does. What has changed is women are being blamed for a man's lack if sex because, for the first time in centuries, we do actually have a choice now! | |||
" And to the other lady who mentioned when she couldn't attract anyone, she just got on with her life. Yes, absolutely that would be what we would all do in an ideal world. Men function different to women though. Especially young men. They are wired differently. Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. There are many books and much research on how men and women are wired differently when it comes to finding partners! I'm aware of a lot of discredited evolutionary psychology. I'm trying to disentangle the sociology and any biology. Nature, nurture. Because the bit I quoted feels like saying, yes, Swing, you suffered that alone and that was fine, but we need to solve the problems for men going through the same. I think men and women should be given very similar, if not identical, assistance with this kind of thing. The problems with trying to meet people in today's world here is the same for all but evolutionary changes are happening incredibly quickly and making the divides almost bigger I'm unaware of any definitive, documented sex differences, though, that mean that when it happens to women it's personal and when it happens to men it's a societal crisis. Nope, as said is the problems are the same for all! Changing quickly making things way more difficult ... for all! So why then is a woman not getting sex dismissed as being very different to a man not getting sex? Me not getting sex was my fault, but men not getting sex is a social crisis? It just screams of entitlement. Most likely just because women have been seen as just sex for babies and/or we go off it (stereotyping/generalising) whereas men have always been judged as more highly sexed ie always thinking about/looking. Same as, in the past, if a lady slept around she was a slag whereas if a man did he was a stud ... it's just how many people see things through conditioning therefore a lady doesn't need sex whereas a man does. What has changed is women are being blamed for a man's lack if sex because, for the first time in centuries, we do actually have a choice now! " We agree. I think this "social crisis" is men dealing with the fact that women can make our own choices. They'll just have to adapt. And not by being catered to. | |||
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"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000)." Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues | |||
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"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000)." Unfortunately, historically, this has always been the case and there are numerous reasons as to why this is ...  | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Unfortunately, historically, this has always been the case and there are numerous reasons as to why this is ... "What is worse and hugely on the increase are the suicide rates in young men and even the rates in young women are increasing | |||
" I think this "social crisis" is men dealing with the fact that women can make our own choices. They'll just have to adapt. And not by being catered to." I agree with this. In years gone by most men were guaranteed to be able to find a wife if they wanted one. Women needed men for basics. Whilst there was the odd “spinster aunt” here and there generally people needed a marriage. Shitty men who’d raise their fists, or who liked too much of a drink, or who didn’t keep a job still had a wife, a home and everything that entailed. Including no housework, food on the table for them and sex whenever they demanded it. My Nana always used to say “No matter how bad the man he always found a wife”. That doesn’t happen now. Women are happy to be single. Most would rather be single than stay in a shit relationship. Now they can leave if they want and that’s going to take men as a bunch time to get used to. But get used to it they’ll have to because it won’t change back again. | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out " And again, I have to be so careful with my words because of the people in this thread. I don’t think no sex is the only issue, or the biggest issue. I think it’s part of it. Maybe not even a big part, because maybe if other things were fixed, and men got better in general, the sex issue would fix itself And I’m not focusing on sex either. If we got men a weekly hooker that woukdnt fix it. What I mean is a loving relationship in whatever form that takes as everyone is different | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues " Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out " I don't think men and women are that discretely different. I am of course happy to look at evidence, not generalisations stated as authoritative fact. I also think that men need to deal with the situation they have, and not take lack of sex so personally. | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. " On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? | |||
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"Suicide rates are, imo, going to increase massively in both makes and females. For years now people have been told “work hard and you can have it all” - Uni, by your house, retire at 60 and go on lots of holidays. I mean it’s not long since you could buy the house then have one parent stay at home with he kids and still live comfortably on one salary. That’s not life now. And until that goes to being the norm people are going to feel like failure for not achieving that." That was certainly not the case for us or our contemporaries. Possibly my parents generation | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out " I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. | |||
"Suicide rates are, imo, going to increase massively in both makes and females. For years now people have been told “work hard and you can have it all” - Uni, by your house, retire at 60 and go on lots of holidays. I mean it’s not long since you could buy the house then have one parent stay at home with he kids and still live comfortably on one salary. That’s not life now. And until that goes to being the norm people are going to feel like failure for not achieving that." Yes. I absolutely feel that the social contract has been destroyed. There's a sociological theory (Durkheim) called anomie, which is about being connected with attainable goals that are socially desirable. If you can't, you experience anomie, which leads to disaffection, crime, self harm, etc. I absolutely think this is a factor in the statistics we see of broad social problems, particularly in the young. | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I?" You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? " I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge " You keep bringing it up. | |||
"Suicide rates are, imo, going to increase massively in both makes and females. For years now people have been told “work hard and you can have it all” - Uni, by your house, retire at 60 and go on lots of holidays. I mean it’s not long since you could buy the house then have one parent stay at home with he kids and still live comfortably on one salary. That’s not life now. And until that goes to being the norm people are going to feel like failure for not achieving that. Yes. I absolutely feel that the social contract has been destroyed. There's a sociological theory (Durkheim) called anomie, which is about being connected with attainable goals that are socially desirable. If you can't, you experience anomie, which leads to disaffection, crime, self harm, etc. I absolutely think this is a factor in the statistics we see of broad social problems, particularly in the young." What are younger people's goals and how are they setting them, where are they getting the goals from? | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge You keep bringing it up. " Because it remains tangible evidence of my point. | |||
"Suicide rates are, imo, going to increase massively in both makes and females. For years now people have been told “work hard and you can have it all” - Uni, by your house, retire at 60 and go on lots of holidays. I mean it’s not long since you could buy the house then have one parent stay at home with he kids and still live comfortably on one salary. That’s not life now. And until that goes to being the norm people are going to feel like failure for not achieving that. Yes. I absolutely feel that the social contract has been destroyed. There's a sociological theory (Durkheim) called anomie, which is about being connected with attainable goals that are socially desirable. If you can't, you experience anomie, which leads to disaffection, crime, self harm, etc. I absolutely think this is a factor in the statistics we see of broad social problems, particularly in the young. What are younger people's goals and how are they setting them, where are they getting the goals from? " I don't know that. I do know that some millennials opted not to have children because it was simply unaffordable (I remember reading media coverage about it), and not because they didn't want children. (Millennials no longer being "younger people", of course) I'm just trying to say, here's a well established theory that might explain disconnect, as inequality grows. | |||
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"A big issue men face is the difference in how we view their issues. I was listening to a talk show on results a few weeks back. Boys failing was bwacaue boys were lazy, unruly, focussed on girls. Girls failing was because of boys, the system, etc. Imo "the system" is not built for boys. It's built for the few, who happen to be men. But not fo all men. And many, many boys and men are swimming uphil yet being told they have the tide with them. That bleeds through into many areas I'd suggest. From crime to suicide. " Yes, I think that's true. Our systems are built for the perpetuation of class and other inequality. Boys and men need their turn - in conjunction with ongoing issues that girls/women and other historically disadvantaged groups face. Not in competition. | |||
"A big issue men face is the difference in how we view their issues. I was listening to a talk show on results a few weeks back. Boys failing was bwacaue boys were lazy, unruly, focussed on girls. Girls failing was because of boys, the system, etc. Imo "the system" is not built for boys. It's built for the few, who happen to be men. But not fo all men. And many, many boys and men are swimming uphil yet being told they have the tide with them. That bleeds through into many areas I'd suggest. From crime to suicide. " It’s a fair point. Apparently I have it easy because I’m a man, and I need to shut up about my issues because I don’t have any, and any I might have are entirely my fault | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. " I see that as very perceptive. The young, including men, are our future. If their life skills, like the ability to form a relationship with a partner, are limited then the stability of society will be affected. There have always been young men who are awkward amongst women but these days it does appear to be worse. Dismissing their situation with casual comments about "entitlement" (I doubt if many feel that) and "women can chose, get used to it" (they always have, and men always have) is unlikely to help. In the USA, these outliers of society often pick up an AR15 and go back to school. So it is a problem with real consequences. | |||
"Are men in crisis? Or are they just being told that they are and then conform to the rhetoric? " I would not say that is just men. I only know about 7 or 8 teenagers but of those all but one claims to have psychological issues | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. I see that as very perceptive. The young, including men, are our future. If their life skills, like the ability to form a relationship with a partner, are limited then the stability of society will be affected. There have always been young men who are awkward amongst women but these days it does appear to be worse. Dismissing their situation with casual comments about "entitlement" (I doubt if many feel that) and "women can chose, get used to it" (they always have, and men always have) is unlikely to help. In the USA, these outliers of society often pick up an AR15 and go back to school. So it is a problem with real consequences. " We don't negotiate with terrorists. | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. I see that as very perceptive. The young, including men, are our future. If their life skills, like the ability to form a relationship with a partner, are limited then the stability of society will be affected. There have always been young men who are awkward amongst women but these days it does appear to be worse. Dismissing their situation with casual comments about "entitlement" (I doubt if many feel that) and "women can chose, get used to it" (they always have, and men always have) is unlikely to help. In the USA, these outliers of society often pick up an AR15 and go back to school. So it is a problem with real consequences. We don't negotiate with terrorists." So socially awkward and disaffected young men are terrorists? Interesting but very supportive point of view. Assuming you perceive a problem what do you see as a solution? | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. I see that as very perceptive. The young, including men, are our future. If their life skills, like the ability to form a relationship with a partner, are limited then the stability of society will be affected. There have always been young men who are awkward amongst women but these days it does appear to be worse. Dismissing their situation with casual comments about "entitlement" (I doubt if many feel that) and "women can chose, get used to it" (they always have, and men always have) is unlikely to help. In the USA, these outliers of society often pick up an AR15 and go back to school. So it is a problem with real consequences. We don't negotiate with terrorists. So socially awkward and disaffected young men are terrorists? Interesting but very supportive point of view. Assuming you perceive a problem what do you see as a solution? " When you talk about anyone bringing an AR15 to school, they are a terrorist We don’t negotiate with terrorists However, we should look into why they get there, and take steps to stop the radicalisation | |||
"A big issue men face is the difference in how we view their issues. I was listening to a talk show on results a few weeks back. Boys failing was bwacaue boys were lazy, unruly, focussed on girls. Girls failing was because of boys, the system, etc. Imo "the system" is not built for boys. It's built for the few, who happen to be men. But not fo all men. And many, many boys and men are swimming uphil yet being told they have the tide with them. That bleeds through into many areas I'd suggest. From crime to suicide. " I know three men, two divorced, one never married who are happier than ever single. They have more freedom to do the things that they like and the divorced ones say that they have never been so well off. They work hard, earn good money, manage it well and spend it on enjoying their own lives. Their attitude is that marriage is for suckers…. | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. I see that as very perceptive. The young, including men, are our future. If their life skills, like the ability to form a relationship with a partner, are limited then the stability of society will be affected. There have always been young men who are awkward amongst women but these days it does appear to be worse. Dismissing their situation with casual comments about "entitlement" (I doubt if many feel that) and "women can chose, get used to it" (they always have, and men always have) is unlikely to help. In the USA, these outliers of society often pick up an AR15 and go back to school. So it is a problem with real consequences. We don't negotiate with terrorists. So socially awkward and disaffected young men are terrorists? Interesting but very supportive point of view. Assuming you perceive a problem what do you see as a solution? " If the consequences of a group not getting what they want is violence on the public, that's a terroristic threat. I was a socially awkward young woman. It's me in the OP. I never contemplated violence. (I have an extremely high sex drive, always have, and I'm not relationship or baby driven) I think we need to focus on equality of opportunity and education on healthy equal relationships at a young age. Psychological resilience. Less stigma for seeking psychological help so someone who is depressed about their circumstances can help themselves and not resort to violence against self or others. | |||
" I do think it's largely sociological, the policing of ways in which women are allowed to publicly express sexuality. Slut shaming and the like. I think it would need to be studied more closely for definitive answers though. Which is why I'm asking for evidence." One example of how men and women are wired differently is testosterone. There are many studies into the behavioural effects of testosterone. Or put simply... When I was a teenage boy and a walking hardon, it wasn't society giving me a hardon  | |||
" Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. Interesting... Why do you think there's a huge disparity in the male to female ratio on Fab? Do you really think that's solely down to sociological differences or partly because we're wired differently, men express their needs in a different way? I do think it's largely sociological, the policing of ways in which women are allowed to publicly express sexuality. Slut shaming and the like. I think it would need to be studied more closely for definitive answers though. Which is why I'm asking for evidence." But you're asking for evidence on a sex site. Whilst viewing every situation through heavily coloured lenses. Not receiving said evidence likely presents you with a false reinforcement of your position. The evidence is there and I've been down this road in other threads and provided both academic and commercial evidence. Did it work, did it alter anything... No... So, do your own research reach out of your jaded bubble and really test your position in an environment conducive to questioning and growth... thats not here. Seeing this a lot on here, on the road to militancy you have shut down all information but that which you sought to validate your position... thereby placing yourself in an echo chamber. Then asking for evidence... because obviously you've provided yours places you in some position as arbiter? It's a completely false position intended to engender authourity and rightousness in your view and position... as obviously you've provided proof... Do your own research. | |||
" I do think it's largely sociological, the policing of ways in which women are allowed to publicly express sexuality. Slut shaming and the like. I think it would need to be studied more closely for definitive answers though. Which is why I'm asking for evidence. One example of how men and women are wired differently is testosterone. There are many studies into the behavioural effects of testosterone. Or put simply... When I was a teenage boy and a walking hardon, it wasn't society giving me a hardon "Does testosterone make you unable to consider the effects you have on others, unable to control yourself? Do you know women also produce testosterone, some in levels comparable to some men? (I'm talking about cis women ftr) Women also have sex drives, mine was also extremely high when I was younger. | |||
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"There was research down years ago that found single ladies on average outlived ladies in relationships but found that men in relationships on average outlived single men. They surmised that this was because men and women have different relationships with their same gender friends ie women tend to have more supportive/love/touching relationships with their girl friends when compared to men and their male friends More research has been done on this but I didn't continue keeping up with it " Done* not down! | |||
" Is there any hard evidence that men are wired differently? Scientific evidence? I see it as more sociological, not a difference in biology. Interesting... Why do you think there's a huge disparity in the male to female ratio on Fab? Do you really think that's solely down to sociological differences or partly because we're wired differently, men express their needs in a different way? I do think it's largely sociological, the policing of ways in which women are allowed to publicly express sexuality. Slut shaming and the like. I think it would need to be studied more closely for definitive answers though. Which is why I'm asking for evidence. But you're asking for evidence on a sex site. Whilst viewing every situation through heavily coloured lenses. Not receiving said evidence likely presents you with a false reinforcement of your position. The evidence is there and I've been down this road in other threads and provided both academic and commercial evidence. Did it work, did it alter anything... No... So, do your own research reach out of your jaded bubble and really test your position in an environment conducive to questioning and growth... thats not here. Seeing this a lot on here, on the road to militancy you have shut down all information but that which you sought to validate your position... thereby placing yourself in an echo chamber. Then asking for evidence... because obviously you've provided yours places you in some position as arbiter? It's a completely false position intended to engender authourity and rightousness in your view and position... as obviously you've provided proof... Do your own research. " I'm asking for evidence to back up people's claims. You'll also notice that I actually allude to research in some of my posts. I'm not saying this without some backing. "Do your own research" seems to have changed meaning from "look into this yourself" to "I'm entirely above helping in the exchange of ideas, go read the shite I read and agree with it". No, thank you. | |||
"There was research done years ago that found single ladies on average outlived ladies in relationships but found that men in relationships on average outlived single men. They surmised that this was because men and women have different relationships with their same gender friends ie women tend to have more supportive/love/touching relationships with their girl friends when compared to men and their male friends More research has been done on this but I didn't continue keeping up with it " Yes, and I think that's sad for men. I hope that changes and they can receive the same benefits we have. | |||
"There was research down years ago that found single ladies on average outlived ladies in relationships but found that men in relationships on average outlived single men. They surmised that this was because men and women have different relationships with their same gender friends ie women tend to have more supportive/love/touching relationships with their girl friends when compared to men and their male friends More research has been done on this but I didn't continue keeping up with it " Seems to be a focus on just sex. I think intimacy and relationships and just general closeness with other people is the issue. Men are definitely struggling there  | |||
"There was research down years ago that found single ladies on average outlived ladies in relationships but found that men in relationships on average outlived single men. They surmised that this was because men and women have different relationships with their same gender friends ie women tend to have more supportive/love/touching relationships with their girl friends when compared to men and their male friends More research has been done on this but I didn't continue keeping up with it Seems to be a focus on just sex. I think intimacy and relationships and just general closeness with other people is the issue. Men are definitely struggling there "Precisely so ... | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. I see that as very perceptive. The young, including men, are our future. If their life skills, like the ability to form a relationship with a partner, are limited then the stability of society will be affected. There have always been young men who are awkward amongst women but these days it does appear to be worse. Dismissing their situation with casual comments about "entitlement" (I doubt if many feel that) and "women can chose, get used to it" (they always have, and men always have) is unlikely to help. In the USA, these outliers of society often pick up an AR15 and go back to school. So it is a problem with real consequences. We don't negotiate with terrorists. So socially awkward and disaffected young men are terrorists? Interesting but very supportive point of view. Assuming you perceive a problem what do you see as a solution? When you talk about anyone bringing an AR15 to school, they are a terrorist We don’t negotiate with terrorists However, we should look into why they get there, and take steps to stop the radicalisation " Exactly. We need to do that. | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. I see that as very perceptive. The young, including men, are our future. If their life skills, like the ability to form a relationship with a partner, are limited then the stability of society will be affected. There have always been young men who are awkward amongst women but these days it does appear to be worse. Dismissing their situation with casual comments about "entitlement" (I doubt if many feel that) and "women can chose, get used to it" (they always have, and men always have) is unlikely to help. In the USA, these outliers of society often pick up an AR15 and go back to school. So it is a problem with real consequences. We don't negotiate with terrorists. So socially awkward and disaffected young men are terrorists? Interesting but very supportive point of view. Assuming you perceive a problem what do you see as a solution? When you talk about anyone bringing an AR15 to school, they are a terrorist We don’t negotiate with terrorists However, we should look into why they get there, and take steps to stop the radicalisation Exactly. We need to do that. " Also we need to stop being so harsh with guys that are down on their luck and feeling bad. Instead of support they heard the crown scream “loser, virgin, incel”. Where’s the support? And if the support existed, would a young men even feel comfortable taking it? Or is he just told to shut up, sit down, get on with it, your just a privileged entitled boy | |||
"No sex is different for men and women No sex for women tends to be them not finding the right guy. But they still have plenty of options. Especially with apps. They have a constant background noise of “your attractive, your wanted, your valued” Where as for men, no sex can mean years without a single women even looking at you. The background noise is “no one wants you, you’ll never be loved, you’ll never be wanted” Couple this wity the fact that, for some reason, men tend to have much less social support from friends/family And before anyone kicks off, that’s not womens fault or their job to fix. It’s just a symptom I don’t think men are upset because women have choices. They’ve always had choices I think they are looking around at society and everything is telling them they aren’t valued. And they are choosing to check out I'd have to agree. I've lost count of the conversations I've had with men over the last few years that echo this. And the issue starts with young men and what they perceive to be their value. What they can contribute to society. I see that as very perceptive. The young, including men, are our future. If their life skills, like the ability to form a relationship with a partner, are limited then the stability of society will be affected. There have always been young men who are awkward amongst women but these days it does appear to be worse. Dismissing their situation with casual comments about "entitlement" (I doubt if many feel that) and "women can chose, get used to it" (they always have, and men always have) is unlikely to help. In the USA, these outliers of society often pick up an AR15 and go back to school. So it is a problem with real consequences. We don't negotiate with terrorists. So socially awkward and disaffected young men are terrorists? Interesting but very supportive point of view. Assuming you perceive a problem what do you see as a solution? When you talk about anyone bringing an AR15 to school, they are a terrorist We don’t negotiate with terrorists However, we should look into why they get there, and take steps to stop the radicalisation Exactly. We need to do that. Also we need to stop being so harsh with guys that are down on their luck and feeling bad. Instead of support they heard the crown scream “loser, virgin, incel”. Where’s the support? And if the support existed, would a young men even feel comfortable taking it? Or is he just told to shut up, sit down, get on with it, your just a privileged entitled boy " I'm mixed here. We absolutely need to support more. Be honest about if and how any "privalage" works. (is it intersectionality that allows for one factor to reverse privalge?). But also we need to fight against the crabs that pull these guys back with the overly emphasised victim mentality. You many be running into a wind noone else sees. You may be told you have a tail wind that makes it all the worse. But if you aren't even trying to run, that's on you. We need some compassionate coaching. Hard truths delivered with care and empathy. | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge " Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not | |||
" I do think it's largely sociological, the policing of ways in which women are allowed to publicly express sexuality. Slut shaming and the like. I think it would need to be studied more closely for definitive answers though. Which is why I'm asking for evidence. One example of how men and women are wired differently is testosterone. There are many studies into the behavioural effects of testosterone. Or put simply... When I was a teenage boy and a walking hardon, it wasn't society giving me a hardon
Does testosterone make you unable to consider the effects you have on others, unable to control yourself?
Do you know women also produce testosterone, some in levels comparable to some men? (I'm talking about cis women ftr)
Women also have sex drives, mine was also extremely high when I was younger.
"I'm fully aware that women have testosterone. The men's average often cited range (the average range in my opinion being too wide - probably because it includes a wide age range) is significantly higher than women's. Women's increase at certain times, e.g.during their cycle, but that peak doesn't get anywhere near the lower end of the mens range. As I said, there are many studies on the impact of testosterone and behaviour. Taking it out of context, it's interesting the exaggerated behavioural changes when bodybuilders are taking PEDs and their test levels are 3000+. Again, there are scientific papers which have studied these changes. I have simply answered the point on men and women being wired differently and presented 1 example. | |||
"There was research down years ago that found single ladies on average outlived ladies in relationships but found that men in relationships on average outlived single men. They surmised that this was because men and women have different relationships with their same gender friends ie women tend to have more supportive/love/touching relationships with their girl friends when compared to men and their male friends More research has been done on this but I didn't continue keeping up with it Seems to be a focus on just sex. I think intimacy and relationships and just general closeness with other people is the issue. Men are definitely struggling there "I commented on intimacy previously - I think this has become a bigger issue in the last couple of years for many people and perhaps exacerbated it for men more than women. Intimacy required better communication skills, communication skills and close friendships with peers are things that women tend to do better with. And this flags back to the previous comment about the differences between single/married men and women. | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not" My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not" I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm also sorry you see women wasting time on men we don't want to meet as a positive. | |||
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"Don’t be shy. Comment some more " | |||
"Don’t be shy. Comment some more
"Yup | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point " Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. | |||
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"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. " My first 10 thoughts about this reply would get me a week ban from the forums, that’s how bad it is Whatever that point was, it’s still stupid to suggest women swipe more on men they don’t want to help fix mens issues You need to own that. You made a stupid point | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. My first 10 thoughts about this reply would get me a week ban from the forums, that’s how bad it is Whatever that point was, it’s still stupid to suggest women swipe more on men they don’t want to help fix mens issues You need to own that. You made a stupid point" I repeat, i am not telling women they should do this. How many more times do i have to say this? | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. " In a bar men should learn to take no for an answer. I'm not sure why you think this is positive. If I bat someone away in public and they keep talking, I am actively looking for a way to escape the situation. Maybe some people think differently. But this is like, in public we get to disregard people's no! | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. My first 10 thoughts about this reply would get me a week ban from the forums, that’s how bad it is Whatever that point was, it’s still stupid to suggest women swipe more on men they don’t want to help fix mens issues You need to own that. You made a stupid point I repeat, i am not telling women they should do this. How many more times do i have to say this? " Then why did you make that point? How was that helpful to the conversation? | |||
"'he had to use his charm' is the full line i meant to say" You do know some online profiles are charming too? There's an art to it. As things change, people adapt to the new situations facing them. | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. My first 10 thoughts about this reply would get me a week ban from the forums, that’s how bad it is Whatever that point was, it’s still stupid to suggest women swipe more on men they don’t want to help fix mens issues You need to own that. You made a stupid point I repeat, i am not telling women they should do this. How many more times do i have to say this? Then why did you make that point? How was that helpful to the conversation? " Because it would address the 50-46-4 stat that began this whole conversation. It would be forced and it would be a bit weird but it may just spawn more face to face contact and attraction in person that a pooly taken photo cant facilitate. Once again, im not suggesting any women should do this, but if we're all agreed that the online world is killing human interation, then surely the logical path is to minimise it and bring us back to human contact as much as possible | |||
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"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. In a bar men should learn to take no for an answer. I'm not sure why you think this is positive. If I bat someone away in public and they keep talking, I am actively looking for a way to escape the situation. Maybe some people think differently. But this is like, in public we get to disregard people's no!" Once again, taking things to the nth degree. Yes, of course there are pests on nights out, there are also many many encounters/relationships that began from lads having to try that bit harder on a night out. I know ive done it myself, many of my friends did likewise. One of my friends is married to a girl who told him to get lost when he first tried to chat her up. He didn't, he used his charm and won her over. | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. In a bar men should learn to take no for an answer. I'm not sure why you think this is positive. If I bat someone away in public and they keep talking, I am actively looking for a way to escape the situation. Maybe some people think differently. But this is like, in public we get to disregard people's no! Once again, taking things to the nth degree. Yes, of course there are pests on nights out, there are also many many encounters/relationships that began from lads having to try that bit harder on a night out. I know ive done it myself, many of my friends did likewise. One of my friends is married to a girl who told him to get lost when he first tried to chat her up. He didn't, he used his charm and won her over. " I'm speaking to my experience. If I say no, that's final. Leave me alone. If I keep talking to you it's only because I'm trying not to cause a scene, and I'm trying to find a way to comfortably escape the situation. Why is your experience more important than mine? | |||
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"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. In a bar men should learn to take no for an answer. I'm not sure why you think this is positive. If I bat someone away in public and they keep talking, I am actively looking for a way to escape the situation. Maybe some people think differently. But this is like, in public we get to disregard people's no! Once again, taking things to the nth degree. Yes, of course there are pests on nights out, there are also many many encounters/relationships that began from lads having to try that bit harder on a night out. I know ive done it myself, many of my friends did likewise. One of my friends is married to a girl who told him to get lost when he first tried to chat her up. He didn't, he used his charm and won her over. I'm speaking to my experience. If I say no, that's final. Leave me alone. If I keep talking to you it's only because I'm trying not to cause a scene, and I'm trying to find a way to comfortably escape the situation. Why is your experience more important than mine?" Ok im going to repond once more to you and then thats it, as you are extremely confrontational and look to make everything a battle. Nowhere have i said my experience is more important than yours. I think ive outlined very clearly at this stage what i mean and i will leave it to the other contributors in here to hopefully read it exactly as ive written it, and then take it or leave it. | |||
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"To put it all in realistic terms when my daughter did her degree to enable her to do what she's always wanted to do there were 16 guys and 3 girls on her course ... all 3 of them are career focused to be able to work all over the world and do their careers before any thought of settling down/kids etc so none of them interested in dating When compared to the guys 14 of which happily in longterm relationships and still able to settle down whilst working all over the world! No way are those happy ladies going to swipe to make guys feel better ... Though her male uni friends were looking for or in happy relationships a lot of young ladies now can postpone settling down in order to have and do, the lives they want Nothing wrong with this at all but more and more young ladies can have lives that weren't available to my mother's generation and have the settled relationship, just at a later point. We (and I mean noone) should give up on what they want to make each other better we all have to take responsibility for ourselves ... It's just historically a lady's life was more about settling down and having kids My children and a lot of their friends, aren't interested in having kids at all because of how their lives, the environment and prospects and if that is then relationships aren't what they will ever look for ... so these ladies do nowadays have many more choices in their lives, sex included, which are totally different to our collective evolutionary direction in a very short time. It'll take society a long time to catch up with this and it'll have certain negative consequences until it becomes the 'norm' " And you may be right with all that. Perhaps we are just headed to a new norm and humanity will adapt. Its hard to see any other outcome though, in developed countries at least, than declining birth rates and shrinking families | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. In a bar men should learn to take no for an answer. I'm not sure why you think this is positive. If I bat someone away in public and they keep talking, I am actively looking for a way to escape the situation. Maybe some people think differently. But this is like, in public we get to disregard people's no! Once again, taking things to the nth degree. Yes, of course there are pests on nights out, there are also many many encounters/relationships that began from lads having to try that bit harder on a night out. I know ive done it myself, many of my friends did likewise. One of my friends is married to a girl who told him to get lost when he first tried to chat her up. He didn't, he used his charm and won her over. I'm speaking to my experience. If I say no, that's final. Leave me alone. If I keep talking to you it's only because I'm trying not to cause a scene, and I'm trying to find a way to comfortably escape the situation. Why is your experience more important than mine? Ok im going to repond once more to you and then thats it, as you are extremely confrontational and look to make everything a battle. Nowhere have i said my experience is more important than yours. I think ive outlined very clearly at this stage what i mean and i will leave it to the other contributors in here to hopefully read it exactly as ive written it, and then take it or leave it. " Likewise. I am taking what you've written and expressed my experience of it. Personally, I feel happier and safer being able to be on the other side of a screen from those who won't take no for an answer, and want to charm or manipulate me into changing my mind. | |||
"It'll take society a long time to catch up with this and it'll have certain negative consequences until it becomes the 'norm'" Luckily it’s already the norm. A lot of men just haven’t caught up yet. Not that they’re being deliberately misogynistic, just that their attitudes about some things are outdated and they haven’t realised it yet. This thread being a bloody good case in point. | |||
"It'll take society a long time to catch up with this and it'll have certain negative consequences until it becomes the 'norm' Luckily it’s already the norm. A lot of men just haven’t caught up yet. Not that they’re being deliberately misogynistic, just that their attitudes about some things are outdated and they haven’t realised it yet. This thread being a bloody good case in point."  | |||
"Speaking to a councellor recently and the rates of mental illness etc can be traced back to WW1 and WW2 where peoole suffered from PTSD and other issues. Due to being undiagnosed the effects were felt by their children. Looking back at my grandparents it is clear now how deeply damaged they were. " Yes, epigenetic effects. We really don't understand these very well at all either. | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. My first 10 thoughts about this reply would get me a week ban from the forums, that’s how bad it is Whatever that point was, it’s still stupid to suggest women swipe more on men they don’t want to help fix mens issues You need to own that. You made a stupid point I repeat, i am not telling women they should do this. How many more times do i have to say this? Then why did you make that point? How was that helpful to the conversation? Because it would address the 50-46-4 stat that began this whole conversation. It would be forced and it would be a bit weird but it may just spawn more face to face contact and attraction in person that a pooly taken photo cant facilitate. Once again, im not suggesting any women should do this, but if we're all agreed that the online world is killing human interation, then surely the logical path is to minimise it and bring us back to human contact as much as possible" nothing is stopping men from getting offline and going old school. The issue imo is men using tools that doesn't work in their favour. But to your bar analogy, is there any evidence that women on tinder are going home alone because of the insta no? | |||
"It'll take society a long time to catch up with this and it'll have certain negative consequences until it becomes the 'norm' Luckily it’s already the norm. A lot of men just haven’t caught up yet. Not that they’re being deliberately misogynistic, just that their attitudes about some things are outdated and they haven’t realised it yet. This thread being a bloody good case in point." Evolutionary changes normally take 100s (plus) years but since the internet in our lives humanity is having to change at a rate that we mentally just can't keep up with hence why I believe our good mental health is so hard to keep hold of ... | |||
"Speaking to a councellor recently and the rates of mental illness etc can be traced back to WW1 and WW2 where peoole suffered from PTSD and other issues. Due to being undiagnosed the effects were felt by their children. Looking back at my grandparents it is clear now how deeply damaged they were. Yes, epigenetic effects. We really don't understand these very well at all either. " Not to mention WW2 saw the death of 380k men from the UK. We talk about male role models, and probably an entire generation that grew up with them in a smaller supply because of war | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. My first 10 thoughts about this reply would get me a week ban from the forums, that’s how bad it is Whatever that point was, it’s still stupid to suggest women swipe more on men they don’t want to help fix mens issues You need to own that. You made a stupid point I repeat, i am not telling women they should do this. How many more times do i have to say this? Then why did you make that point? How was that helpful to the conversation? Because it would address the 50-46-4 stat that began this whole conversation. It would be forced and it would be a bit weird but it may just spawn more face to face contact and attraction in person that a pooly taken photo cant facilitate. Once again, im not suggesting any women should do this, but if we're all agreed that the online world is killing human interation, then surely the logical path is to minimise it and bring us back to human contact as much as possiblenothing is stopping men from getting offline and going old school. The issue imo is men using tools that doesn't work in their favour. But to your bar analogy, is there any evidence that women on tinder are going home alone because of the insta no? " I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion | |||
"It seems there are two questions being debated. One is "are men in crisis" and the original YT link was looking specifically at men under 30. Issues such as the number of men in college, rise in violence, lack of sex, suicide rates. How do we judge if a group is in crisis? Or is it a general societal change affecting both sexed? The second is "why are they in crisis"? The original question. I said previously that I felt suicide rates were a reasonable sign of a group in crisis. These figures are from The Samaritans for England. More men commit suicide than women across all of the UK. It's particularly notable in Scotland. The male suicide rate was 15.8 per 100,000**, compared to a female suicide rate of 5.5 per 100,000**. Males aged 50-54 were found to have the highest suicide rate (22.5 per 100,000). Yes, I think it is two separate issues being conflated. On sex - get over yourselves. You're not entitled to sex. On social opportunity, mental health, etc - I'll absolutely agree there's an issue there which needs addressing. Maybe multiple issues Swing - no-one has said men are entitled to sex. I asked the question whether men struggle more without it. I'd never suggest that they deserve it or women have to give it up. But the question is an interesting one. On a previous thread the OP suggested I help with the crisis by saying yes more. Why the hell should I? You shouldn't. It was one throwaway remark by someone who is known for being combative to women. Can you let it go? I'm using it as evidence of an attitude of entitlement, not an eternal grudge Ok, first of all, as per usual, you are getting defensive at the drop of a hat and turning this, as you always do, into a battle of the sexes. My reason for saying that was in response to a question of what can a woman do to address the issue. On a very micro level, yes that would mean swiping yes to more men. Nobody is saying you have to or that you should, but it would undoubtedly be a positive thing as would foster more contact between the sexes and possibly lead to more physical contact that wasn't ruled out initially on first sight. Youre taking what i said too literally as if i was suggesting you SHOULD be doing this. Which i most certainly was not My question to you is why you even brought that up? You have a bad answer and she took it literally. That’s your fault. The reason your in this little circle argument is because you chose to make that ridiculous point Im not in any circle argument, its that lady who cant seem to let it go. But seeing as you ask, ill go deeper. Pre swiping days, people gathered in bars, nightclubs etc, many a night ended with a man finally winning the affections of a woman who didnt bat an eyelid at him at the beginning of the night. He jad to use his, which he is unable to do today. And she gradually warmed to his wit, persistence, whatever you wanna call it. Relationships spawned. Now she swipes no and that guy is gone. On a night out, perhaps they may have gelled. So on a very basic level, the swiping of no is akin to the initial batting him away in the bar. However in the bar he was able to try win her over. My first 10 thoughts about this reply would get me a week ban from the forums, that’s how bad it is Whatever that point was, it’s still stupid to suggest women swipe more on men they don’t want to help fix mens issues You need to own that. You made a stupid point I repeat, i am not telling women they should do this. How many more times do i have to say this? Then why did you make that point? How was that helpful to the conversation? Because it would address the 50-46-4 stat that began this whole conversation. It would be forced and it would be a bit weird but it may just spawn more face to face contact and attraction in person that a pooly taken photo cant facilitate. Once again, im not suggesting any women should do this, but if we're all agreed that the online world is killing human interation, then surely the logical path is to minimise it and bring us back to human contact as much as possiblenothing is stopping men from getting offline and going old school. The issue imo is men using tools that doesn't work in their favour. But to your bar analogy, is there any evidence that women on tinder are going home alone because of the insta no? I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion " did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. | |||
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" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. " There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others " If it’s true, the issue, as it’s been explained to me is that You get a bunch of guys getting nothing, sad times You get a very small amount of men getting a lot, fun for them, but with so many options why would they ever settle down Then you get a bunch of women that these guys use and abuse. Sad times again All my female friends have a long list of guys that have fucked and dumped them. Used and abused. And a lot of the same names are on their lists. That’s just my experience though, I’m sure it’s not the rule by any means | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others If it’s true, the issue, as it’s been explained to me is that You get a bunch of guys getting nothing, sad times You get a very small amount of men getting a lot, fun for them, but with so many options why would they ever settle down Then you get a bunch of women that these guys use and abuse. Sad times again All my female friends have a long list of guys that have fucked and dumped them. Used and abused. And a lot of the same names are on their lists. That’s just my experience though, I’m sure it’s not the rule by any means " In a nutshell... | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others If it’s true, the issue, as it’s been explained to me is that You get a bunch of guys getting nothing, sad times You get a very small amount of men getting a lot, fun for them, but with so many options why would they ever settle down Then you get a bunch of women that these guys use and abuse. Sad times again All my female friends have a long list of guys that have fucked and dumped them. Used and abused. And a lot of the same names are on their lists. That’s just my experience though, I’m sure it’s not the rule by any means " That pretty much sums it up i think | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others " I'm sure they do. Men also pick the same gals over others if imagine. It's the scale of the power.law I'm intrigued in. I also wonder if behaviour changes over time on the app. If the above stat is right, there are 4 to 1 men on apps, and men swipe right 3 to 1. That, to me, suggests a degree of learning could be in play ... As in practice we may manage success by number of matches, rather than a match success rate. | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others If it’s true, the issue, as it’s been explained to me is that You get a bunch of guys getting nothing, sad times You get a very small amount of men getting a lot, fun for them, but with so many options why would they ever settle down Then you get a bunch of women that these guys use and abuse. Sad times again All my female friends have a long list of guys that have fucked and dumped them. Used and abused. And a lot of the same names are on their lists. That’s just my experience though, I’m sure it’s not the rule by any means " did your gal pals get all these name from tinder ? I wonder if this is partly human behaviour (or more driven from contraceptive tech than dating tech) | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others I'm sure they do. Men also pick the same gals over others if imagine. It's the scale of the power.law I'm intrigued in. I also wonder if behaviour changes over time on the app. If the above stat is right, there are 4 to 1 men on apps, and men swipe right 3 to 1. That, to me, suggests a degree of learning could be in play ... As in practice we may manage success by number of matches, rather than a match success rate. " I think that stat us heavily skewed. I swipe right on everyone on tinder because it’s more time efficient to just swipe right 20 times then unmatch the ones I don’t like. I know plenty of guys do the same | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others If it’s true, the issue, as it’s been explained to me is that You get a bunch of guys getting nothing, sad times You get a very small amount of men getting a lot, fun for them, but with so many options why would they ever settle down Then you get a bunch of women that these guys use and abuse. Sad times again All my female friends have a long list of guys that have fucked and dumped them. Used and abused. And a lot of the same names are on their lists. That’s just my experience though, I’m sure it’s not the rule by any means did your gal pals get all these name from tinder ? I wonder if this is partly human behaviour (or more driven from contraceptive tech than dating tech)" It’s definitely gotten worse with tinder. The same 6’2 tatted guy from the town over now has access to every women within whatever radius he chooses. No one is restricted to their social group anymore | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others I'm sure they do. Men also pick the same gals over others if imagine. It's the scale of the power.law I'm intrigued in. I also wonder if behaviour changes over time on the app. If the above stat is right, there are 4 to 1 men on apps, and men swipe right 3 to 1. That, to me, suggests a degree of learning could be in play ... As in practice we may manage success by number of matches, rather than a match success rate. I think that stat us heavily skewed. I swipe right on everyone on tinder because it’s more time efficient to just swipe right 20 times then unmatch the ones I don’t like. I know plenty of guys do the same " me too. So really maybe men are more selective than women after the tinder tap. (I no longer do this, as I believe it sets the wrong frame for my dating outlook. I'm selective from the start.) Tinder tapping also sets the wrong expectation for any new jñfemalw joiners to apps. Which creates a vicious circle. Men have more power than they give themselves credit for. They just give it up because it's easier that way. | |||
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"All this conversation does is make me even more grateful (if I wasn't already) for having met Mr KC at school, and for him being a bloody amazing husband. No apps required. " This ^^^ think we're lucky in comparison to youngsters today! | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others I'm sure they do. Men also pick the same gals over others if imagine. It's the scale of the power.law I'm intrigued in. I also wonder if behaviour changes over time on the app. If the above stat is right, there are 4 to 1 men on apps, and men swipe right 3 to 1. That, to me, suggests a degree of learning could be in play ... As in practice we may manage success by number of matches, rather than a match success rate. I think that stat us heavily skewed. I swipe right on everyone on tinder because it’s more time efficient to just swipe right 20 times then unmatch the ones I don’t like. I know plenty of guys do the same me too. So really maybe men are more selective than women after the tinder tap. (I no longer do this, as I believe it sets the wrong frame for my dating outlook. I'm selective from the start.) Tinder tapping also sets the wrong expectation for any new jñfemalw joiners to apps. Which creates a vicious circle. Men have more power than they give themselves credit for. They just give it up because it's easier that way. " That and the fact they limit the number of yes swipes now dont they, meaning you have to wait to the next day to swipe yes again. unless you pay for the upgrade | |||
"All this conversation does is make me even more grateful (if I wasn't already) for having met Mr KC at school, and for him being a bloody amazing husband. No apps required. " Yes indeed | |||
" I dont believe so, because for every 50 women, 46 of them are getting picked up by the same 4 guys online. Which is one of the stats that has formed the basis for this discussion did we ever get a source for that stat. There was a quora thread, but that wasn't so specific. There is a lot of information about this online tbf and loads of available research floating around that supports it! Not about ladies being 'picked up' by those guys but definitely ladies picking the same guys over others I'm sure they do. Men also pick the same gals over others if imagine. It's the scale of the power.law I'm intrigued in. I also wonder if behaviour changes over time on the app. If the above stat is right, there are 4 to 1 men on apps, and men swipe right 3 to 1. That, to me, suggests a degree of learning could be in play ... As in practice we may manage success by number of matches, rather than a match success rate. I think that stat us heavily skewed. I swipe right on everyone on tinder because it’s more time efficient to just swipe right 20 times then unmatch the ones I don’t like. I know plenty of guys do the same me too. So really maybe men are more selective than women after the tinder tap. (I no longer do this, as I believe it sets the wrong frame for my dating outlook. I'm selective from the start.) Tinder tapping also sets the wrong expectation for any new jñfemalw joiners to apps. Which creates a vicious circle. Men have more power than they give themselves credit for. They just give it up because it's easier that way. " I actually fully agree on the last sentence. Basically, too many simps And social media and apps give women even more simps And i think that’s reflected in the way women behaviour sometimes on fabs or on apps/social media with the amount of very low effort interactions I see I think it upsets a lot of young guys that they need to work to have any access to that power. Not everyone wins the generic lottery, some of you actually need to try and work to be a better, more desirable person | |||
" Basically, too many simps And social media and apps give women even more simps " In previous posts you're talking about how men need more support and understanding, less condemnation. Until they behave in a way you don't approve of, and then they're "simps" to be derided? How is this helpful? | |||
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" Basically, too many simps And social media and apps give women even more simps In previous posts you're talking about how men need more support and understanding, less condemnation. Until they behave in a way you don't approve of, and then they're "simps" to be derided? How is this helpful? " Support comes in many ways, and one way is pointing out damaging behaviour. And simping is damaging behaviour. If you don’t like my wording, I just use the word I know. Feel free to use whatever word pleases you in place of that | |||
"IMHO there is a huge amount of shaping the attitudes of young men and their ability to relate to women due to the self-perpetuating masculinity and desire to be seen as masculine that pervades our entire society. When those such as I allow our feminine sides to be seen in public, there is a heavy undercurrent of unease and even hatred shown towards us by some because we undermine the male/female dividing line. I feel that this is especially seen in the scorn and derision that is piled onto those who declare themselves to be non-binary or of floating gender identity. It is heavily implied that any man who explores the feminine side of their persona, or woman who has strong masculine traits, must be broken somehow, doing it in order to attack the other gender (metaphorically and physically!) or perverted in some way. I feel that this pervasive attitude sets a tone of male versus female, that life is a competition between genders, that there cannot be a coming together of emotions, that males must be assertive and females must be submissive - all totally toxic to happiness. I'm not sure that I've worded this well, or properly managed to say what I wanted to, but anyway that's my two penn'orth on the topic." I get what youre saying, and there probably is a grain of truth to it. I think for the most part, men and women are naturally wired the way you have outlined, but there are exceptions and of course they shouldn't be victimised in any way or try to be 'changed' either | |||
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"I'm not sure exactly what the 'crisis' is that men are suffering from? There's certainly much social change going on with women quite rightly getting more equal treatment by society (still some way to go) and men having to adjust to that. But there are plenty of social problems for women too. Do we regard that as a crisis? " The original post refered to a piece in Bill Maher's latest programme. https://youtu.be/TAgUHyXr7_Y The first OP was specifically about males so to conflate female crises is drifting away from the point. If you want to discuss female issues start another post. This male topic has developed a significant amount of discussion already. | |||
