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Charging Dilemma
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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago
Chelmsford |
Reports of a moral dilemma. A man buys a hybrid car but lives in a street with no off street parking and usually gets home at about 8pm when usually all of the parking slots are gone outside his house and usually he parks a few streets away. He gets home and asks his next door neighbour move his car do he can charge it. His neighbour refuses as he knows it will set a precedent and there is a supermarket charging unit just 5 minutes away.
What would you do? |
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I am curious as to how the man would charge the car _even_ if he was parked directly outside his house - you can’t run a power cable across a pavement and leave it unattended unless you want to expose yourself to all sorts of liability issues.
If you don’t have off street parking then you are basically screwed. |
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By *a LunaWoman
over a year ago
South Wales |
"I am curious as to how the man would charge the car _even_ if he was parked directly outside his house - you can’t run a power cable across a pavement and leave it unattended unless you want to expose yourself to all sorts of liability issues.
If you don’t have off street parking then you are basically screwed."
I drive past a house that has a charging cable running from his bedroom window down to his car - anybody walking past the house has to limbo under the cable.
I assume it’s a charging cable. Could be an aerial? Who knows! |
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"I am curious as to how the man would charge the car _even_ if he was parked directly outside his house - you can’t run a power cable across a pavement and leave it unattended unless you want to expose yourself to all sorts of liability issues.
If you don’t have off street parking then you are basically screwed.
I drive past a house that has a charging cable running from his bedroom window down to his car - anybody walking past the house has to limbo under the cable.
I assume it’s a charging cable. Could be an aerial? Who knows! "
Nah it's just because he likes his magic tree air freshener so he got a mega long straw to transfer the scent from his car to his bedroom. |
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"I am curious as to how the man would charge the car _even_ if he was parked directly outside his house - you can’t run a power cable across a pavement and leave it unattended unless you want to expose yourself to all sorts of liability issues.
If you don’t have off street parking then you are basically screwed.
I drive past a house that has a charging cable running from his bedroom window down to his car - anybody walking past the house has to limbo under the cable.
I assume it’s a charging cable. Could be an aerial? Who knows! "
Surely that can’t end well for him. |
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"Is it much different than it is now when you come home and can’t park outside your house cos it’s chocka so you end up just having to park as close to home as you can?"
If you currently drive a diesel or petrol car, you don't need to plug it into the mains overnight to charge. I think that's the main issue here  |
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"Go supermarket and get some beer make it worth while "
There is ¹ electric car charger at a supermarket in this little town of just over 22,000 people. The next nearest ones are over 6 miles away. There are LOTS of terraced houses where people can't park outside. How will EVs work in these situations?. |
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"Go supermarket and get some beer make it worth while
There is ¹ electric car charger at a supermarket in this little town of just over 22,000 people. The next nearest ones are over 6 miles away. There are LOTS of terraced houses where people can't park outside. How will EVs work in these situations?."
They won’t. Next question? |
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"Go supermarket and get some beer make it worth while
There is ¹ electric car charger at a supermarket in this little town of just over 22,000 people. The next nearest ones are over 6 miles away. There are LOTS of terraced houses where people can't park outside. How will EVs work in these situations?.
They won’t. Next question? "
Do we still get beer though?!  |
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"Go supermarket and get some beer make it worth while
There is ¹ electric car charger at a supermarket in this little town of just over 22,000 people. The next nearest ones are over 6 miles away. There are LOTS of terraced houses where people can't park outside. How will EVs work in these situations?.
They won’t. Next question?
Do we still get beer though?! "
Always time for beer |
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"Go supermarket and get some beer make it worth while
There is ¹ electric car charger at a supermarket in this little town of just over 22,000 people. The next nearest ones are over 6 miles away. There are LOTS of terraced houses where people can't park outside. How will EVs work in these situations?."
It's almost as if nobody has thought this through 
Next you'll be telling me it's not like the adverts with attractive, wealthy looking couples drinking coffee and gazing lovingly at each other while their shiny vehicle charges at a deserted location. |
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"Go supermarket and get some beer make it worth while
There is ¹ electric car charger at a supermarket in this little town of just over 22,000 people. The next nearest ones are over 6 miles away. There are LOTS of terraced houses where people can't park outside. How will EVs work in these situations?.
It's almost as if nobody has thought this through
Next you'll be telling me it's not like the adverts with attractive, wealthy looking couples drinking coffee and gazing lovingly at each other while their shiny vehicle charges at a deserted location. "
We have coffee shops. ² of them, I think  |
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Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be. "
You’d need another car to carry the battery |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be. "
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out. |
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
You’d need another car to carry the battery"
Are they really that much heavier than normal car batteries? Blimey. |
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out."
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time. "
I’m sure they were looking into removable batteries. Some way to pull up at a garage and swap batteries quicker than it takes to charge. |
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time. "
A quick Google suggests that the replacement cost of a Tesla battery would currently be somewhere around £10,000. They weigh about 900lbs/400kg so you are not lifting that out an a daily basis. |
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time.
A quick Google suggests that the replacement cost of a Tesla battery would currently be somewhere around £10,000. They weigh about 900lbs/400kg so you are not lifting that out an a daily basis."
It's amazing how Google has managed to provide you with a time machine. |
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By *lynJMan
over a year ago
Morden |
"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time.
I’m sure they were looking into removable batteries. Some way to pull up at a garage and swap batteries quicker than it takes to charge."
There are some prototype garages in Japan, I think.
It also has the advantage that the replacement batteries could be upgraded tech, so either smaller or bigger capacity. |
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By *hoirCouple
over a year ago
Clacton/Bury St. Edmunds |
"Go supermarket and get some beer make it worth while
There is ¹ electric car charger at a supermarket in this little town of just over 22,000 people. The next nearest ones are over 6 miles away. There are LOTS of terraced houses where people can't park outside. How will EVs work in these situations?."
They won't and that is the point. It has already been said that they want to phase out car ownership.
C |
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time.
I’m sure they were looking into removable batteries. Some way to pull up at a garage and swap batteries quicker than it takes to charge."
It certainly would be a better solution in the long term. Not really sure how they're going to tackle it in the meantime though. I'm sure time will tell. I imagine car parks are all eventually going to become huge charging sites. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time.
I’m sure they were looking into removable batteries. Some way to pull up at a garage and swap batteries quicker than it takes to charge.
It certainly would be a better solution in the long term. Not really sure how they're going to tackle it in the meantime though. I'm sure time will tell. I imagine car parks are all eventually going to become huge charging sites. "
I think the future will be in improving the range from a full charge rather than swapping batteries. If they manage to do 500 miles on a full charge and give people more access to fast chargers more people will buy EVs. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Are they really that much heavier than normal car batteries? Blimey. "
Yeah, not by virtue of being different but just the quantity required.
The standard car battery cell provides approximately 12.6 volts and is recharged by the alternator continuously, thus allowing the optimum size to be fitted per application. Petrol cars have smaller ones due to ignition based starting, diesels have larger due to glow plugs and compression. Just comparing those two types by, you'll understand how the weight goes up by scale.
EV's weigh a lot compared to their traditional internal combustion counter parts, thankfully, that can be offset by placing the cells low in the chassis providing good weight distribution and a lower centre of gravity, but weight is weight.
Actually removing entire cells, from car to car, you'd need standardised design and implementation across all brands. We're so far from that given the rate of current (puns!) development.
Honestly, I think it'll be infrastructure change that really heralds the shift, highways with electromagnetic induction charging, think wireless scalectrix. Then when we come off the main routes, switch to our reserves till we hit a quick charge station that might have us done quicker than we can finish our coffee.
It's great to watch but we need to be mindful of assuming that all EV's are cleaner and better, it's not just emissions, but energy usage and co2 emissions during construction. They are quite awful for this, and that's before we even address how the energy was created.
Societal changes are what's needed across a plethora of aspects. Will we get there, I hope so, by choice rather than necessity. |
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"What happens if you live in an apartment/flat? 
Not sure Diamond..
It will all unravel..
Like La Luna's really, really long extension lead"
Unfortunately, over long distances an extension lead would suffer voltage drop. This is the reason why the cables that run to your house from the street are so chunky. To run an extension lead a couple of streets away, the cable would also need to be the thickness of your arm... and weigh a couple of tons.
Cal |
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time.
I’m sure they were looking into removable batteries. Some way to pull up at a garage and swap batteries quicker than it takes to charge.
It certainly would be a better solution in the long term. Not really sure how they're going to tackle it in the meantime though. I'm sure time will tell. I imagine car parks are all eventually going to become huge charging sites.
I think the future will be in improving the range from a full charge rather than swapping batteries. If they manage to do 500 miles on a full charge and give people more access to fast chargers more people will buy EVs."
I just can't see people having the patience of having to find a specific place to charge all the time and wait for it. Especially when they're used to being able to fill their tank with fuel in 10 minutes. Less even if you pay at the pump. People these days barely have the patience to fully charge their mobile phones if they have to keep it plugged in. It's one thing if you have a driveway and can plug it in overnight or have a work car park with good charging facilities but I'm thinking about people like delivery drivers or taxi drivers. When it becomes compulsory, it could really bugger up their income if there isn't better solutions for people without a driveway. |
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"Are they really that much heavier than normal car batteries? Blimey.
Yeah, not by virtue of being different but just the quantity required.
The standard car battery cell provides approximately 12.6 volts and is recharged by the alternator continuously, thus allowing the optimum size to be fitted per application. Petrol cars have smaller ones due to ignition based starting, diesels have larger due to glow plugs and compression. Just comparing those two types by, you'll understand how the weight goes up by scale.
EV's weigh a lot compared to their traditional internal combustion counter parts, thankfully, that can be offset by placing the cells low in the chassis providing good weight distribution and a lower centre of gravity, but weight is weight.
Actually removing entire cells, from car to car, you'd need standardised design and implementation across all brands. We're so far from that given the rate of current (puns!) development.
Honestly, I think it'll be infrastructure change that really heralds the shift, highways with electromagnetic induction charging, think wireless scalectrix. Then when we come off the main routes, switch to our reserves till we hit a quick charge station that might have us done quicker than we can finish our coffee.
It's great to watch but we need to be mindful of assuming that all EV's are cleaner and better, it's not just emissions, but energy usage and co2 emissions during construction. They are quite awful for this, and that's before we even address how the energy was created.
Societal changes are what's needed across a plethora of aspects. Will we get there, I hope so, by choice rather than necessity. "
I have always said that the ultimate option for EVs would be a standardized battery and battery swaps in the "refuelling Station", with drivers just paying for the charge that they have taken out of the old battery.
Cal |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"Reports of a moral dilemma. A man buys a hybrid car but lives in a street with no off street parking and usually gets home at about 8pm when usually all of the parking slots are gone outside his house and usually he parks a few streets away. He gets home and asks his next door neighbour move his car do he can charge it. His neighbour refuses as he knows it will set a precedent and there is a supermarket charging unit just 5 minutes away.
What would you do? "
Not but an electric car unless I had a drive to charge it on. It’s a no brainier , you wouldn’t buy a herd of mountain goats if you had a 1 bed flat would you? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time.
I’m sure they were looking into removable batteries. Some way to pull up at a garage and swap batteries quicker than it takes to charge.
It certainly would be a better solution in the long term. Not really sure how they're going to tackle it in the meantime though. I'm sure time will tell. I imagine car parks are all eventually going to become huge charging sites.
I think the future will be in improving the range from a full charge rather than swapping batteries. If they manage to do 500 miles on a full charge and give people more access to fast chargers more people will buy EVs.
I just can't see people having the patience of having to find a specific place to charge all the time and wait for it. Especially when they're used to being able to fill their tank with fuel in 10 minutes. Less even if you pay at the pump. People these days barely have the patience to fully charge their mobile phones if they have to keep it plugged in. It's one thing if you have a driveway and can plug it in overnight or have a work car park with good charging facilities but I'm thinking about people like delivery drivers or taxi drivers. When it becomes compulsory, it could really bugger up their income if there isn't better solutions for people without a driveway. "
True. They’re pumping a lot of money into it so hopefully they come up with some innovative solutions or alternative fuel sources.
I know they’re looking into driverless taxis and busses. God knows how that will work. |
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"If you go tampering with the batteries you will need 2 inch rubber soles on your boots and rubber spanners to disconnect"
DC batteries will not discharge to earth, you need to complete the circuit between the two poles of the battery. |
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By *rHotNottsMan
over a year ago
Dubai & Nottingham |
"Are they really that much heavier than normal car batteries? Blimey.
Yeah, not by virtue of being different but just the quantity required.
The standard car battery cell provides approximately 12.6 volts and is recharged by the alternator continuously, thus allowing the optimum size to be fitted per application. Petrol cars have smaller ones due to ignition based starting, diesels have larger due to glow plugs and compression. Just comparing those two types by, you'll understand how the weight goes up by scale.
EV's weigh a lot compared to their traditional internal combustion counter parts, thankfully, that can be offset by placing the cells low in the chassis providing good weight distribution and a lower centre of gravity, but weight is weight.
Actually removing entire cells, from car to car, you'd need standardised design and implementation across all brands. We're so far from that given the rate of current (puns!) development.
Honestly, I think it'll be infrastructure change that really heralds the shift, highways with electromagnetic induction charging, think wireless scalectrix. Then when we come off the main routes, switch to our reserves till we hit a quick charge station that might have us done quicker than we can finish our coffee.
It's great to watch but we need to be mindful of assuming that all EV's are cleaner and better, it's not just emissions, but energy usage and co2 emissions during construction. They are quite awful for this, and that's before we even address how the energy was created.
Societal changes are what's needed across a plethora of aspects. Will we get there, I hope so, by choice rather than necessity. "
There’s a huge amount of R&D in this area not just for cars but think diesel use in total area of the world. Diesel is the cause of huge pollution, theft, fraud, corruption and in some case worse. Protecting diesel delivery in sone place is a major logistical problem. This will all be silver in 10-20 years by Elon musk, saviour of the world |
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I have recently seen adverts for Portable EV Charging Power Packs. A device that is around the size of a suitcase, you can charge it at home whilst you are out in your car and when you park up you can wheel it out and use it to charge your car.
Obviously they can't be 100% efficient, so there will be an increase in the cost compared to charging the EV directly. But it is a possible solution for those without appropriate parking places.
Cal |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Ive never understood why car companies cannot use the rotation of the wheels to charge the batteries. That would solve the query"
They do, thats an energy recovery system, much like kers is a kinetic energy recovery system through regenerative braking.
Think dynamos on your old bike for a light, your input on the pedals turns the light on.
But there's always diminished returns and loss of energy in the system, friction, heat, noise etc.
You're talking about a zero loss feedback loop, if we had figured that out, all our energy problems are gone. But that's literally breaking the laws of physics. |
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"Reports of a moral dilemma. A man buys a hybrid car but lives in a street with no off street parking and usually gets home at about 8pm when usually all of the parking slots are gone outside his house and usually he parks a few streets away. He gets home and asks his next door neighbour move his car do he can charge it. His neighbour refuses as he knows it will set a precedent and there is a supermarket charging unit just 5 minutes away.
What would you do? "
Why he wants to charge his hybrid car  |
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"I am curious as to how the man would charge the car _even_ if he was parked directly outside his house - you can’t run a power cable across a pavement and leave it unattended unless you want to expose yourself to all sorts of liability issues.
If you don’t have off street parking then you are basically screwed."
I've seen this done in a busy high street. Also the car was parked with the charging point furthest from the kerb so the plug sticks out in traffic. |
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By *ockey64Man
over a year ago
Gloucester |
"
A quick Google suggests that the replacement cost of a Tesla battery would currently be somewhere around £10,000.
If the battery costs £10k, how much does the car cost ?"
smallest hybrid ie Nissan Leaf around 25k plus. Then anything upto 100k plus |
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"
There is ¹ electric car charger
We have coffee shops. ² of them, I think
Why do you have such small numbers ?
Because she 'is to the power of one ' and 'coffee shops squared '  "
I think our coffee shops are rectangular  |
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"
A quick Google suggests that the replacement cost of a Tesla battery would currently be somewhere around £10,000.
If the battery costs £10k, how much does the car cost ? smallest hybrid ie Nissan Leaf around 25k plus. Then anything upto 100k plus "
There are many new SMALL All Electric cars in the £25k-£28k price band. They are roughly £10k more expensive than their petrol versions.
Cal |
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"Reports of a moral dilemma. A man buys a hybrid car but lives in a street with no off street parking and usually gets home at about 8pm when usually all of the parking slots are gone outside his house and usually he parks a few streets away. He gets home and asks his next door neighbour move his car do he can charge it. His neighbour refuses as he knows it will set a precedent and there is a supermarket charging unit just 5 minutes away.
What would you do? "
I live in a road like this and it's exactly the reason I won't consider an EV. Far too few charging points in the vicinity (nearest is 15 min drive away), so until the infrastructure changes, I'm ruled out of jumping onto this particular bandwagon. |
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"
A quick Google suggests that the replacement cost of a Tesla battery would currently be somewhere around £10,000.
If the battery costs £10k, how much does the car cost ? smallest hybrid ie Nissan Leaf around 25k plus. Then anything upto 100k plus
There are many new SMALL All Electric cars in the £25k-£28k price band. They are roughly £10k more expensive than their petrol versions.
Cal"
And for those of us who need cars with large boot space to accommodate mobility equipment, the EV cars are:
a) few and far between
b) jolly expensive
c) public charging infrastructure is not accessible |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
The best thing to do is not buy a hybrid, they only produce around 30 - 50 miles of electric power on average. The weight of the battery and motor can easily out way the electric benefits, they use more fuel due to the extra weight.
|
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"
A quick Google suggests that the replacement cost of a Tesla battery would currently be somewhere around £10,000.
If the battery costs £10k, how much does the car cost ? smallest hybrid ie Nissan Leaf around 25k plus. Then anything upto 100k plus
There are many new SMALL All Electric cars in the £25k-£28k price band. They are roughly £10k more expensive than their petrol versions.
Cal
And for those of us who need cars with large boot space to accommodate mobility equipment, the EV cars are:
a) few and far between
b) jolly expensive
c) public charging infrastructure is not accessible "
Tell me about it, I play in several bands and need to drive a van. To buy an electric van with a large enough load capacity and range, will cost £70k or more.
Cal |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Somebody pointed out to me recently that an easy solution would be being able to remove tge battery to take it home to charge instead of having to plug in the actual car. I wonder how feasible that would be.
The batteries are huge. It would be the equivalent of taking an engine out.
Maybe it could happen in the future. Tech tends to get smaller over time.
I’m sure they were looking into removable batteries. Some way to pull up at a garage and swap batteries quicker than it takes to charge.
It certainly would be a better solution in the long term. Not really sure how they're going to tackle it in the meantime though. I'm sure time will tell. I imagine car parks are all eventually going to become huge charging sites.
I think the future will be in improving the range from a full charge rather than swapping batteries. If they manage to do 500 miles on a full charge and give people more access to fast chargers more people will buy EVs."
This
I've never understood the whole argument that EV's won't work because people who live in terraced houses can't charge them at home. They can't top their petrol up at home either. All we need is plenty of fast accessible charging points. You can already bang 200 miles of range into your car while you have a pee and a coffee at a service station and this will keep on improving.
Right now, for many people, an EV isn't a practical solution. The type of car they want, the price they want, the range they want etc etc are not met. I've got absolutely no argument with any of that. What I find bizarre is the attitude of 'it doesn't work for me right now, I don't have the imagination/inclination to think of how to make it work so the whole world should stop bothering'
We only need to look at history to understand how fast things change. In 1830 virtually no one in this country had heard of a train. 20 years later there were thousands of miles of rail track and thousands and thousands of people traveling on the things. Is the infrastructure there right now? For many people, no. Is that changing at a very rapid rate? You'd have to be wilfully ignoring it not to see it is.
OP, a others have said, a hybrid was a stupid choice for his situation.
Mr |
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"
I've never understood the whole argument that EV's won't work because people who live in terraced houses can't charge them at home. They can't top their petrol up at home either. All we need is plenty of fast accessible charging points. You can already bang 200 miles of range into your car while you have a pee and a coffee at a service station and this will keep on improving.
Right now, for many people, an EV isn't a practical solution. The type of car they want, the price they want, the range they want etc etc are not met. I've got absolutely no argument with any of that. What I find bizarre is the attitude of 'it doesn't work for me right now, I don't have the imagination/inclination to think of how to make it work so the whole world should stop bothering'
We only need to look at history to understand how fast things change. In 1830 virtually no one in this country had heard of a train. 20 years later there were thousands of miles of rail track and thousands and thousands of people traveling on the things. Is the infrastructure there right now? For many people, no. Is that changing at a very rapid rate? You'd have to be wilfully ignoring it not to see it is.
OP, a others have said, a hybrid was a stupid choice for his situation.
Mr"
I agree and sort of don’t agree. 100% with you on people who say we should stop bothering but I am not convinced that the solution is a fundamental change in societal infrastructure. That is just not practical on the sort of timescales we are talking about. To be effective we have to look at the existing capabilities - that is liquid storage.
There is an interesting company called Zero Petroleum which makes the argument that the core issue is in the energy density of each fuel type - batteries are large/expensive because they don’t store much energy. Petrol is very energy dense so you don’t need much of it. If you can find a way to remove the carbon from petrol (ie create synthetic fuel) then it will have high density and an existing infrastructure to use. That seems a much more viable path. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It takes a minute or two to put enough diesel in my car for two weeks of driving. When will EV charging achieve the same? "
It probably never will, given the difference in the storage of different energy types.
It's going to move toward passive charging when parked, or within infrastructure etc.
The logistics of how its delivered will ultimately be different, for now we are adopting the same methodology due to familiarity, but once we invest properly we can move past that. |
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"It takes a minute or two to put enough diesel in my car for two weeks of driving. When will EV charging achieve the same?
It probably never will, given the difference in the storage of different energy types.
It's going to move toward passive charging when parked, or within infrastructure etc.
The logistics of how its delivered will ultimately be different, for now we are adopting the same methodology due to familiarity, but once we invest properly we can move past that."
For many disabled people, the infrastructure is going to need to be in this sort of form before using EVs is going to be practical. The problem is that penalising those who cannot adopt the new tech will disproportionately affect some of those least able to comply. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"For many disabled people, the infrastructure is going to need to be in this sort of form before using EVs is going to be practical. The problem is that penalising those who cannot adopt the new tech will disproportionately affect some of those least able to comply."
Disabled people, unfairly treated and penalised. Please, that never happens, like at all?
It's their own fault really, they should work harder like me, pick themselves up, dust themselves down, pull themselves up by the boot straps etc etc.
No handouts, just hard work. Lazy. All of them. If I can do it, why can't they?
Eye wateringly stupid clichés aside, I think iirc the blue badge gives you exemption from the congestion charge, not sure about the ULEZ.
It's not just disabled people that will be affected, anyone on a low income too. Adequate phasing in of the new technologies is required to ensure parity of opportunity to all parts of society.
Thankfully, thats us down to a T, we definitely don't pick on and choose the weakest or last through the door for habitual national bullying masquerading as political policy. Hah |
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"
There is an interesting company called Zero Petroleum which makes the argument that the core issue is in the energy density of each fuel type - batteries are large/expensive because they don’t store much energy. Petrol is very energy dense so you don’t need much of it. If you can find a way to remove the carbon from petrol (ie create synthetic fuel) then it will have high density and an existing infrastructure to use. That seems a much more viable path."
That's certainly an interesting idea.
The Hydrogen cars were also interesting but Hydrogen on earth isn't that common. It is incredibly abundant in the Universe though but then do we want to get into space mining |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I've never understood the whole argument that EV's won't work because people who live in terraced houses can't charge them at home. They can't top their petrol up at home either. All we need is plenty of fast accessible charging points. You can already bang 200 miles of range into your car while you have a pee and a coffee at a service station and this will keep on improving.
Right now, for many people, an EV isn't a practical solution. The type of car they want, the price they want, the range they want etc etc are not met. I've got absolutely no argument with any of that. What I find bizarre is the attitude of 'it doesn't work for me right now, I don't have the imagination/inclination to think of how to make it work so the whole world should stop bothering'
We only need to look at history to understand how fast things change. In 1830 virtually no one in this country had heard of a train. 20 years later there were thousands of miles of rail track and thousands and thousands of people traveling on the things. Is the infrastructure there right now? For many people, no. Is that changing at a very rapid rate? You'd have to be wilfully ignoring it not to see it is.
OP, a others have said, a hybrid was a stupid choice for his situation.
Mr
I agree and sort of don’t agree. 100% with you on people who say we should stop bothering but I am not convinced that the solution is a fundamental change in societal infrastructure. That is just not practical on the sort of timescales we are talking about. To be effective we have to look at the existing capabilities - that is liquid storage.
There is an interesting company called Zero Petroleum which makes the argument that the core issue is in the energy density of each fuel type - batteries are large/expensive because they don’t store much energy. Petrol is very energy dense so you don’t need much of it. If you can find a way to remove the carbon from petrol (ie create synthetic fuel) then it will have high density and an existing infrastructure to use. That seems a much more viable path."
If you take the carbon out of petrol you are left with hydrogen and you cannot use existing infrastructure to store and transport that. Lets imagine for a moment that what you're proposing is feasible, where is this synthetic fuel being made? Any change requires massive infrastructure modification - infact massive infrastructure modification goes on continuously all the time. 10 years ago there were virtually no pay at pumps, now they're everywhere. Within the past 10 - 20 years virtually ever petrol station in this country has had new stage tanks, new pumps, new canopies, new stores, new computer systems. These changes go on all the time. The problem is we don't notice small incremental changes, they so quickly become part of life while at the same time we see future ones as daunting and somehow impossible.
On the other hand, go for it. What you're suggesting is simple and cost effective, there will surely be investors queuing up to cash in on this 
Mr |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's certainly an interesting idea.
The Hydrogen cars were also interesting but Hydrogen on earth isn't that common. It is incredibly abundant in the Universe though but then do we want to get into space mining "
Well, we've plenty of hydrogen attached to the oxygen molecules in water, which is what some of the concepts were utilising.
The problem is, there's profit in dirty oil and gas, rights, processing etc.
If energy becomes clean, highly affordable, bordering on free, how will capitalism get it's fat juicy slice whilst cutting us off at the knees. |
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"
I've never understood the whole argument that EV's won't work because people who live in terraced houses can't charge them at home. They can't top their petrol up at home either. All we need is plenty of fast accessible charging points. You can already bang 200 miles of range into your car while you have a pee and a coffee at a service station and this will keep on improving.
Right now, for many people, an EV isn't a practical solution. The type of car they want, the price they want, the range they want etc etc are not met. I've got absolutely no argument with any of that. What I find bizarre is the attitude of 'it doesn't work for me right now, I don't have the imagination/inclination to think of how to make it work so the whole world should stop bothering'
We only need to look at history to understand how fast things change. In 1830 virtually no one in this country had heard of a train. 20 years later there were thousands of miles of rail track and thousands and thousands of people traveling on the things. Is the infrastructure there right now? For many people, no. Is that changing at a very rapid rate? You'd have to be wilfully ignoring it not to see it is.
OP, a others have said, a hybrid was a stupid choice for his situation.
Mr
I agree and sort of don’t agree. 100% with you on people who say we should stop bothering but I am not convinced that the solution is a fundamental change in societal infrastructure. That is just not practical on the sort of timescales we are talking about. To be effective we have to look at the existing capabilities - that is liquid storage.
There is an interesting company called Zero Petroleum which makes the argument that the core issue is in the energy density of each fuel type - batteries are large/expensive because they don’t store much energy. Petrol is very energy dense so you don’t need much of it. If you can find a way to remove the carbon from petrol (ie create synthetic fuel) then it will have high density and an existing infrastructure to use. That seems a much more viable path.
If you take the carbon out of petrol you are left with hydrogen and you cannot use existing infrastructure to store and transport that. Lets imagine for a moment that what you're proposing is feasible, where is this synthetic fuel being made? Any change requires massive infrastructure modification - infact massive infrastructure modification goes on continuously all the time. 10 years ago there were virtually no pay at pumps, now they're everywhere. Within the past 10 - 20 years virtually ever petrol station in this country has had new stage tanks, new pumps, new canopies, new stores, new computer systems. These changes go on all the time. The problem is we don't notice small incremental changes, they so quickly become part of life while at the same time we see future ones as daunting and somehow impossible.
On the other hand, go for it. What you're suggesting is simple and cost effective, there will surely be investors queuing up to cash in on this
Mr"
Sloppy use of the term “remove carbon” - what I understand about Zero Petroleum Ltd is that they create synthetic fuels that use renewable energy to extract carbon from the atmosphere that then gets used to create the end product. Effectively it is carbon neutral and looks like the existing fuels we use. The company already exists. |
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"For many disabled people, the infrastructure is going to need to be in this sort of form before using EVs is going to be practical. The problem is that penalising those who cannot adopt the new tech will disproportionately affect some of those least able to comply.
Disabled people, unfairly treated and penalised. Please, that never happens, like at all?
It's their own fault really, they should work harder like me, pick themselves up, dust themselves down, pull themselves up by the boot straps etc etc.
No handouts, just hard work. Lazy. All of them. If I can do it, why can't they?
Eye wateringly stupid clichés aside, I think iirc the blue badge gives you exemption from the congestion charge, not sure about the ULEZ.
It's not just disabled people that will be affected, anyone on a low income too. Adequate phasing in of the new technologies is required to ensure parity of opportunity to all parts of society.
Thankfully, thats us down to a T, we definitely don't pick on and choose the weakest or last through the door for habitual national bullying masquerading as political policy. Hah "
The Govt are offering subsidies for adopting EVs and putting charging points at home, but if you aren't currently able to adopt an EV vehicle, you're stuck with conventional fuel and all the extra taxes being slapped on it (I understand why).
There's an assumption that all disabled people get benefits and help with vehicles but they don't. I pay for all my own mobility costs, currently trying to find the £4k to release my new manual wheelchair from the manufacturer.
I paid to have my current car adapted when I became disabled and many disabled people need more complex modifications than I, which might not be possible on EVs, I don't know!
To fuel my car with diesel, I go to a pump and open an app on my phone (Fuel Service). Not all petrol stations use it though. You tell them you're at Pump XYZ and what fuel you want and a member of staff comes and does it for me. I either pay cash through the window or give them my debit card to bip inside. To charge an EV, no such assistance exists because EV stations are not staffed. Most are up kerbs or have bollards round them which obstruct wheelchair users. You cannot propel a wheelchair yourself and carry a charging cable to a machine. Many machines have touchscreens that are too high to reach from a seated position. Etc. The list goes on....
All this needs fixing before widespread adoption by disabled people.
All the while, none of my local train stations are accessible (no lifts). Buses are being cut or are on strike. We have no trams/Metro here. How does one ditch their diesel vehicle and still work FT etc? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
I've never understood the whole argument that EV's won't work because people who live in terraced houses can't charge them at home. They can't top their petrol up at home either. All we need is plenty of fast accessible charging points. You can already bang 200 miles of range into your car while you have a pee and a coffee at a service station and this will keep on improving.
Right now, for many people, an EV isn't a practical solution. The type of car they want, the price they want, the range they want etc etc are not met. I've got absolutely no argument with any of that. What I find bizarre is the attitude of 'it doesn't work for me right now, I don't have the imagination/inclination to think of how to make it work so the whole world should stop bothering'
We only need to look at history to understand how fast things change. In 1830 virtually no one in this country had heard of a train. 20 years later there were thousands of miles of rail track and thousands and thousands of people traveling on the things. Is the infrastructure there right now? For many people, no. Is that changing at a very rapid rate? You'd have to be wilfully ignoring it not to see it is.
OP, a others have said, a hybrid was a stupid choice for his situation.
Mr
I agree and sort of don’t agree. 100% with you on people who say we should stop bothering but I am not convinced that the solution is a fundamental change in societal infrastructure. That is just not practical on the sort of timescales we are talking about. To be effective we have to look at the existing capabilities - that is liquid storage.
There is an interesting company called Zero Petroleum which makes the argument that the core issue is in the energy density of each fuel type - batteries are large/expensive because they don’t store much energy. Petrol is very energy dense so you don’t need much of it. If you can find a way to remove the carbon from petrol (ie create synthetic fuel) then it will have high density and an existing infrastructure to use. That seems a much more viable path.
If you take the carbon out of petrol you are left with hydrogen and you cannot use existing infrastructure to store and transport that. Lets imagine for a moment that what you're proposing is feasible, where is this synthetic fuel being made? Any change requires massive infrastructure modification - infact massive infrastructure modification goes on continuously all the time. 10 years ago there were virtually no pay at pumps, now they're everywhere. Within the past 10 - 20 years virtually ever petrol station in this country has had new stage tanks, new pumps, new canopies, new stores, new computer systems. These changes go on all the time. The problem is we don't notice small incremental changes, they so quickly become part of life while at the same time we see future ones as daunting and somehow impossible.
On the other hand, go for it. What you're suggesting is simple and cost effective, there will surely be investors queuing up to cash in on this
Mr
Sloppy use of the term “remove carbon” - what I understand about Zero Petroleum Ltd is that they create synthetic fuels that use renewable energy to extract carbon from the atmosphere that then gets used to create the end product. Effectively it is carbon neutral and looks like the existing fuels we use. The company already exists."
To do that requires energy - more energy than can be regained burning the petrol. Running an EV from a gas fired powerstation (let's ignore renewable for now) requires less total energy expenditure than a standard ICE vehicle by the time you take into account the losses involved in procuring, transporting refining and using the different energy sources. Where does the extra energy come from for your proposal and how is creating it an easier infrastructure change than going with battery powered EV's? The exact same questions apply to hydrogen power.
Like hydrogen, this kind of tech will likely play a role in specialist applications. It is very unlikely to be efficient enough to be used as a direct replacement
Mr |
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By *rDJ40Man
over a year ago
Nuneaton |
In response to the OP,it’s a hybrid so strictly speaking it doesn’t need to be charged, every PHEV car I’ve driven has a mode where you can use the engine and the regenerative braking to charge the battery back up. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm not going to quote anymore as it's getting silly haha, but an important factor in all of these is the energy used it manufacturing EV's. A lot of their foot print occurs at the start, and requires a large amount of use to get to net zero, and then improve. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Reports of a moral dilemma. A man buys a hybrid car but lives in a street with no off street parking and usually gets home at about 8pm when usually all of the parking slots are gone outside his house and usually he parks a few streets away. He gets home and asks his next door neighbour move his car do he can charge it. His neighbour refuses as he knows it will set a precedent and there is a supermarket charging unit just 5 minutes away.
What would you do? "
If its a hybrid, doesn't the engine charge the car as it drives. The plug in is just to top upto full. It would be more of a issue for a fully electric car.. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In response to the OP,it’s a hybrid so strictly speaking it doesn’t need to be charged, every PHEV car I’ve driven has a mode where you can use the engine and the regenerative braking to charge the battery back up. "
Someone beat me to it. |
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"That's certainly an interesting idea.
The Hydrogen cars were also interesting but Hydrogen on earth isn't that common. It is incredibly abundant in the Universe though but then do we want to get into space mining
Well, we've plenty of hydrogen attached to the oxygen molecules in water, which is what some of the concepts were utilising.
The problem is, there's profit in dirty oil and gas, rights, processing etc.
If energy becomes clean, highly affordable, bordering on free, how will capitalism get it's fat juicy slice whilst cutting us off at the knees."
Sounds like the promises made about nuclear power 50 years ago. They claimed the would be an abundance of surplus electricity it would be free.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss as they say. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In response to the OP,it’s a hybrid so strictly speaking it doesn’t need to be charged, every PHEV car I’ve driven has a mode where you can use the engine and the regenerative braking to charge the battery back up.
Someone beat me to it. "
This is kind of true but also not. The economy savings you can make on an EV rely on charging it. Using a petrol engine to charge a battery is massively inefficient and there's absolutely no point doing it unless you need the battery for some reason. A hybrid has the disadvantage of hauling around batteries and an engine and the compromise only makes sense if you're using it in its electric range a majority of the time with the engine only for occasional longer journeys
Mr |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In response to the OP,it’s a hybrid so strictly speaking it doesn’t need to be charged, every PHEV car I’ve driven has a mode where you can use the engine and the regenerative braking to charge the battery back up.
Someone beat me to it.
This is kind of true but also not. The economy savings you can make on an EV rely on charging it. Using a petrol engine to charge a battery is massively inefficient and there's absolutely no point doing it unless you need the battery for some reason. A hybrid has the disadvantage of hauling around batteries and an engine and the compromise only makes sense if you're using it in its electric range a majority of the time with the engine only for occasional longer journeys
Mr"
True but the original post wasn't about efficiency but having to charge it like if it was a must. |
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