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Rings of Power
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Can't wait. Wondering how far back they will go."
Ive seen they can only go back so far. With the rights they have bought. Hope its not awful and go like GOT later seasons |
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So, I have a theory about blackwashing. If you're familiar with the source material and there are no people of colour in it then I think you've a right to not like it when TV companies replace white characters with black ones.
Rings of Power has black/non white elves and dwarves. No, just no. The Lord of the Rings trilogy are my favourite films ever, read the books countless times, and there are no non white elves. This new series pre-dates LOTR. What happened to these non white elves? Did Sauron ethnically cleanse them?
Now, I'd never heard of The Witcher before the Netflix series so had no objection to black characters, but, totally understand those who were familiar with the characters from the games. Go figure (shrug emoji)
Frank |
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By *hilloutMan
over a year ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
"With the recent trailer for rings of power whats everyones thoughts?
"
Garbage that will crash and burn. It's what happens when you don't respect the lore and try to make everything through a "modern lens". |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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As a huge Tolkien fan, I felt the LOTR films were ok (still pissed off about Tom Bombadil and killing off Sauron to nor have to film the scouring of the shire) The Hobbit films had good parts but the battle of the 5 armies ruined it. I even accepted Radagast and Galdriel meeting Gandalf at Dol Goldur to destroy the Necromancer but to include the love story and Legolas (especially the cgi) ruined it for a lot of the fans I've spoken with.
Let's just say I'm skeptical about the Rings of Power. |
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"So, I have a theory about blackwashing. If you're familiar with the source material and there are no people of colour in it then I think you've a right to not like it when TV companies replace white characters with black ones.
Rings of Power has black/non white elves and dwarves. No, just no. The Lord of the Rings trilogy are my favourite films ever, read the books countless times, and there are no non white elves. This new series pre-dates LOTR. What happened to these non white elves? Did Sauron ethnically cleanse them?
Now, I'd never heard of The Witcher before the Netflix series so had no objection to black characters, but, totally understand those who were familiar with the characters from the games. Go figure (shrug emoji)
Frank"
It’s a make believe world where wizards exist and you’re bothered about the colour of people? Lol |
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"So, I have a theory about blackwashing. If you're familiar with the source material and there are no people of colour in it then I think you've a right to not like it when TV companies replace white characters with black ones.
Rings of Power has black/non white elves and dwarves. No, just no. The Lord of the Rings trilogy are my favourite films ever, read the books countless times, and there are no non white elves. This new series pre-dates LOTR. What happened to these non white elves? Did Sauron ethnically cleanse them?
Now, I'd never heard of The Witcher before the Netflix series so had no objection to black characters, but, totally understand those who were familiar with the characters from the games. Go figure (shrug emoji)
Frank"
Yikes, "there weren't black people in my nerd thing before and so I don't like it that they're there now" is really quite the thing to openly admit. |
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By *adyJayneWoman
over a year ago
Burnleyish (She/They) |
"Yikes, "there weren't black people in my nerd thing before and so I don't like it that they're there now" is really quite the thing to openly admit. "
*Nerd thing that is fictional and completely made up...
I wasn't sure I could come across of more of a yikes moment than people complaining about Neil Gaiman (himself) casting Gwendoline Christie as Lucifer, Kirby Howell-Baptiste as Death and Mason Alexander Park as Desire but this might be it |
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By *eliWoman
over a year ago
. |
"Yikes, "there weren't black people in my nerd thing before and so I don't like it that they're there now" is really quite the thing to openly admit.
*Nerd thing that is fictional and completely made up...
I wasn't sure I could come across of more of a yikes moment than people complaining about Neil Gaiman (himself) casting Gwendoline Christie as Lucifer, Kirby Howell-Baptiste as Death and Mason Alexander Park as Desire but this might be it"
Oh I can't wait for The Sandman! That's an aside.
Yeah, some of the comments are pretty fricking grim. It's an entrenched attitude sadly, heaven forbid that a person of colour or trans or nonbinary happens to appear in a fantasy realm. Let's keep it as whitewashed as possible to not upset the poor dears. |
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By *batMan
over a year ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"No, just no. The Lord of the Rings trilogy are my favourite films ever, read the books countless times, and there are no non white elves."
Two things ....
Do the books describe all the elves? Every single one of them? Or just some of them?
Are you really sure that there were no black elves?
Secondly, you do know Elves aren't real, don't you? Does it matter which actor pretends to be one? Are you so fixed on skin colour that you can't see past this?
What about their height?
You know the pointy ears are made up, so why can't you accept skin colour being made up?
Final thought, would you prefer a great actor with a different colour skin or would you prefer a mediocre actor with a skin colour that matches the original story (on a mythical being that never existed).
Gbat
post script final final thought: What other changes have been made in order to televise a written book? Are you equally as miffed about those changes or just about skin colour changes?
These are genuine questions and I'm interested in your reasoning. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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I get where the concern is around not sticking to the lore and producers trying and fit political agendas into popular shows to grab people attention to get them to watch.
However casting actors and actresses of different colour doesnt bother me, yes he based his elves on old English and European legends but he does in his works describe lands where folk from the east live and it said that elves and Dwarfs have adventure to those regions, so dont forget in the lord of the rings they where of colour??
I am more concerned is that they will have characters pop up in the wrong place or places they shouldn't be or stories made up not from his books or his writing to fit the what they wanna tell.
I hope its much closer to Peter Jackson visuals for Lord the Rings rather than the hobbit as cgi was poor. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"So, I have a theory about blackwashing. If you're familiar with the source material and there are no people of colour in it then I think you've a right to not like it when TV companies replace white characters with black ones.
Rings of Power has black/non white elves and dwarves. No, just no. The Lord of the Rings trilogy are my favourite films ever, read the books countless times, and there are no non white elves. This new series pre-dates LOTR. What happened to these non white elves? Did Sauron ethnically cleanse them?
Now, I'd never heard of The Witcher before the Netflix series so had no objection to black characters, but, totally understand those who were familiar with the characters from the games. Go figure (shrug emoji)
Frank
It’s a make believe world where wizards exist and you’re bothered about the colour of people? Lol"
The wizards do have pointy hats  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No, just no. The Lord of the Rings trilogy are my favourite films ever, read the books countless times, and there are no non white elves.
Two things ....
Do the books describe all the elves? Every single one of them? Or just some of them?
Are you really sure that there were no black elves?
"
When you read LOTR it is an interesting insight into the colour bias that is in the English language - and how much worse it used to be. Good people are white, dressed in white, the enemy are invariably described as being black, swarthy, or dark, wearing black clothes living in dark places. Some of the soldiers coming up from the south to join the forces of Mordor are described as being black with leering red lips and white eyes. Then again, the East is also a source of many enemies. The cultural prejudices of the day are (sadly) written all through the books.
So I agree with the above poster that to have black characters playing elves is not in fitting with the original stories. However - and far more importantly - I don't agree that it matters. There are many quotes in the books that suggest Tolkien had a left of centre outlook and I'm fairly confident that had he been in the position we are now to realise the harm that colour stereotypes cause he would have made sure they weren't there. His books are (among much else) about good triumphing over evil. The language of the day meant this struggle was literally portrayed as black and white but changing the colours doesn't change his stories.
Mr |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"So, I have a theory about blackwashing. If you're familiar with the source material and there are no people of colour in it then I think you've a right to not like it when TV companies replace white characters with black ones.
Rings of Power has black/non white elves and dwarves. No, just no. The Lord of the Rings trilogy are my favourite films ever, read the books countless times, and there are no non white elves. This new series pre-dates LOTR. What happened to these non white elves? Did Sauron ethnically cleanse them?
Now, I'd never heard of The Witcher before the Netflix series so had no objection to black characters, but, totally understand those who were familiar with the characters from the games. Go figure (shrug emoji)
Frank"
I don't remember every creature character beinng described as white in LOTR.
How we read something is our interpretation. If the colour of a character is central to who they are, and that is made clear, then there might be an argument. Of course, it didn't make a jot of difference for how Othello was cast for hundreds of years.
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Ha, think I'll double down on my comments 
No need to blackwash, there's lots of good, original films/TV shows out there with black characters. Don't change the lore of well loved and established tales. And just so you don't feel left out Meli, gay, non binary, and trans characters too. How about we swap one of the two main characters from Sugar Rush to be a straight black male? Or make the Jules character from Euphoria a cis woman, any colour will do. Would that be okay?
Give Bi a Try, yes, elves were described in the book, and no there were no black elves. Yes, I'm sure.
Lickertysplits, Othello is a centuries old example of whitewashing.
Frank |
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By *batMan
over a year ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Give Bi a Try, yes, elves were described in the book, and no there were no black elves. Yes, I'm sure.
Frank"
I think I could have been clearer. Did Tolkien describe ALL the elves? I don't know what their population was supposed to be, but if we conservatively put it at just 500 elves, did he describe all 500 or just some of them?
Or is there a passage where he describes all of elvenhood, specifically saying they are all white?
And I'll ask again, are you that fixated on the skin of the actor that you can't get past it?
Is this a deliberate "blackwash" on the part of the production team or are they just using black actors because they are on the books and good at the role?
Is there such a concept as unwittingly blackwashing or must it be a deliberate act?
Thanks for responding,
Cheers,
Gbat
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"Give Bi a Try, yes, elves were described in the book, and no there were no black elves. Yes, I'm sure.
Frank
I think I could have been clearer. Did Tolkien describe ALL the elves? I don't know what their population was supposed to be, but if we conservatively put it at just 500 elves, did he describe all 500 or just some of them?
Or is there a passage where he describes all of elvenhood, specifically saying they are all white?
And I'll ask again, are you that fixated on the skin of the actor that you can't get past it?
Is this a deliberate "blackwash" on the part of the production team or are they just using black actors because they are on the books and good at the role?
Is there such a concept as unwittingly blackwashing or must it be a deliberate act?
Thanks for responding,
Cheers,
Gbat
"
Not quite sure how you'd unwittingly blackwash anything. If you know there aren't any black characters in something you're adapting then making one or more of them black is deliberate. Yes?
Regarding the ethnicity of elves, I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Have you read the LOTR books or The Silmarillion?
Frank |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Give Bi a Try, yes, elves were described in the book, and no there were no black elves. Yes, I'm sure.
Frank
I think I could have been clearer. Did Tolkien describe ALL the elves? I don't know what their population was supposed to be, but if we conservatively put it at just 500 elves, did he describe all 500 or just some of them?
Or is there a passage where he describes all of elvenhood, specifically saying they are all white?
And I'll ask again, are you that fixated on the skin of the actor that you can't get past it?
Is this a deliberate "blackwash" on the part of the production team or are they just using black actors because they are on the books and good at the role?
Is there such a concept as unwittingly blackwashing or must it be a deliberate act?
Thanks for responding,
Cheers,
Gbat
"
Did you read my comments above? Tolkien most definitely used black and white to portray good and evil. The ring wraiths wore black, rode black horses, orcs are described variously as swarthy (not to mention slant eyed). Saruman wore white until the title "the white" was stripped from him for murder, treachery and betrayal and given to Gandalf instead. Galadriel is described as wearing white, the light she gave Frodo was a brilliant white (and used to pierce the darkness of Shelobs tunnels) Sauron (much like Voldemort) is often referred to as the dark lord. The people of Gondor are described as having grey eyes and pale skin, the people of Rowan, are tall, fair skinned and blonde. The Southrons who join forces with Mordor are black skinned. The elves are invariably fair to look at - the linguistic links between fair as a shade of colour and as a description of wholsomeness are routinely used.
Your post has made me have a quick Google and pretty much what I'm saying is widely discussed elsewhere. The language of Middle Earth displays the inherent colour prejudices of early 20th century Britain (and Europe) though Tolkien himself seems to have been strongly anti racist he was clearly a person of his time - to steal a quote from Wiki these are his words in a private letter describing the orcs "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."
As I said above though, while it is absolutely clear that purely on a basis of colour a black actor doesn't fit the original descriptions in Tolkiems world, in my mind it makes absolutely no difference. The fight between good and evil doesn't require an outdated black/white stereotype to work. Suggesting it does give the impression of racism though in this particular instance it seems that this is a bizarre accusation to make
Mr |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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This is an interesting topic that runs through a lot of modern tv and film. The TLDR is that I think Hollywood has lost the ability to write interesting stories about minority voices and instead adopts a lazy “paste over” existing characters (typically white men).
I really disagree with these big sweeping changes to source material, mainly because they’re done in the wrong way. There are characters of colour in tolkiens work who have stories that would be interesting (folks have mentioned the Easterlings). But no instead we just change out existing characters/races to fit.
The same can be said for women, luthier is a good example, and Galadriel was already portrayed as a very strong character. Instead we get a lazy “strong woman” character where we basically have a woman acting as a man. Ironically playing up to the masculine tropes we’re trying to discard.
I believe they’ve changed the king of numenor to a queen. Another random change that I don’t feel was necessary. Bottom line is that Tolkien wrote the books to be a mythos for England. Therefore we should expect all that entails.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I should add I think this is a problem that just won’t bother some. For me verisimilitude is very important, that’s is how real something feels. In the same vein if I was watching a film based on Chinese mythology I would find it incredibly jarring to see white actors and wouldn’t agree with it. |
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By *batMan
over a year ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Not quite sure how you'd unwittingly blackwash anything. If you know there aren't any black characters in something you're adapting then making one or more of them black is deliberate. Yes? "
Oh I agree. I don’t think you can unwittingly blackwash something. But I do think you can use actors with a different colour skin because it matters not one little fuck as opposed to fulfilling a politically or socially motivated policy to insert black people into things as an act of blackwashing.
One behaviour does not take account of race when using actors to portray an imaginary being, one behaviour is a deliberate act based on race.
" Regarding the ethnicity of elves, I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Have you read the LOTR books or The Silmarillion? "
Not being obtuse at all. Tolkien described some elves, you seem to insist he was talking about all elves.
Whether he was or wasn’t is a moot point as it’s a fantasy universe and will have been imagined a million ways by a million people when they read the millions of copies of the books.
I’ve read The Hobbit umpteen times as a child and since then, to other children.
I’ve read most of the first LOTRs book, but gave it up as I wasn’t enjoying it.
I don’t see how that’s relevant to my thoughts on the colour of the skin on fantasy actors.
Gbat |
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