FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Should train drivers beable to strike?
Should train drivers beable to strike?
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"Yes but should those that dont want to strike have to.." Yes. That's what union means. They'd strike for you, you strike for them. | |||
"Yes but should those that dont want to strike have to.." They don’t. | |||
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"Anyone should have the right to withdraw their labour if they have a grievance." Some professions don’t strike. | |||
"Yes but should those that dont want to strike have to.." No and they don't. I went on strike over changes to my pension, several colleagues chose not to. | |||
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"Problem is when train drivers strike it negatively affects other workers and turns public opinion against them and loses sympathy for whatever cause. A better form of industrial action may be to open the ticket barriers and let people on free of charge. " Every strike has a negative effect on customer. Disruption is the collateral damage. Instead I’m of blaming the strikers, maybe look at why they are striking? I’m sure all those p&o workers would have supported a strike….. | |||
"Problem is when train drivers strike it negatively affects other workers and turns public opinion against them and loses sympathy for whatever cause. A better form of industrial action may be to open the ticket barriers and let people on free of charge. " I think that might cross over the line of interference with the property of employers and subject them to legal trouble. I'd rather they strike and people understand that it's about the company and conditions. A bit like people shouldn't shout at shop staff because their policies suck. | |||
"Anyone should have the right to withdraw their labour if they have a grievance. Some professions don’t strike." Good for them, but that’s their choice. | |||
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"Anyone should have the right to withdraw their labour if they have a grievance. Some professions don’t strike. Good for them, but that’s their choice." Nurses don’t strike, do you think they should? | |||
"I say that yes they should, but of course it is the commuters who will be affected the most, it comes after the tube will have a 24 hr strike. Passengers are being urged to avoid the tube today, as a strike by thousands of workers in a dispute over jobs and pension, some lines will be open but with severe delays. " Train drivers should be replaced by self driving trains ,we have proven technology that can do their jobs ,They are the last bastion of the militants | |||
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"A better form of industrial action may be to open the ticket barriers and let people on free of charge." This is what they do in Germany. It hits the company, makes the action visible, and doesn't piss off the general populace. It seems to work much better than our method. With regard to London Underground (since they are the ones striking at the moment), I think the drivers are grossly overpaid, and that the union is actively lessening safety on the system by preventing more automation. The whole lot of them should be got rid of. Having said that, yes of course they should be allowed to strike. What possible reason could we have for preventing them doing so | |||
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"I couldn't disagree more re-machine driven trains. There has to be a human override " Nonsense. The DLR has been operating with no drivers for years with only one accident (which was caused by a train being manually driven). The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. | |||
"I say that yes they should, but of course it is the commuters who will be affected the most, it comes after the tube will have a 24 hr strike. Passengers are being urged to avoid the tube today, as a strike by thousands of workers in a dispute over jobs and pension, some lines will be open but with severe delays. " Yes, train drivers should be able to strike. However, unions should have no more power than anybody else to force them to strike. | |||
"A better form of industrial action may be to open the ticket barriers and let people on free of charge. This is what they do in Germany. It hits the company, makes the action visible, and doesn't piss off the general populace. It seems to work much better than our method. With regard to London Underground (since they are the ones striking at the moment), I think the drivers are grossly overpaid, and that the union is actively lessening safety on the system by preventing more automation. The whole lot of them should be got rid of. Having said that, yes of course they should be allowed to strike. What possible reason could we have for preventing them doing so" I think I read something similar about Japan. Bus drivers had a dispute and "went on strike" which involved working as normal, but not charging passengers. Public unaffected, company hit twice (no revenue, and having to pay costs like fuel etc) | |||
"I couldn't disagree more re-machine driven trains. There has to be a human override Nonsense. The DLR has been operating with no drivers for years with only one accident (which was caused by a train being manually driven). The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same." That is how the DLR started out with absolutely no staff on them 30 years ago. Now though every train has an operator on it and they ‘push the buttons’ to control the train. | |||
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"I couldn't disagree more re-machine driven trains. There has to be a human override Nonsense. The DLR has been operating with no drivers for years with only one accident (which was caused by a train being manually driven). The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same." Incorrect, theres a hell of alot more too it. Yes dlr works unmanned but its its own line with little points & crosses. The underground cannot work unmanned, its been trialed and just doesnt work because its a non 'mono' set up. Theres a hell of alot more to driving than pushing buttons, the vlu and other underground lines arnt push button. I do a test drive every two weeks mainline testing our products and elz conversions. Its far more than pushing buttons | |||
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"Anyone should have the right to withdraw their labour if they have a grievance. Some professions don’t strike. Good for them, but that’s their choice. Nurses don’t strike, do you think they should?" Probably. God knows they need to be treated better. Some health professions take industrial action in the form of working to rule or partial strikes. Obviously in such a profession there's duty of care to patients and thus alternatives need to be suggested. I saw someone at some stage who was NHS - engaged in a work to rule strike. Took the breaks they were entitled to and went home on time. It caused fucking chaos. | |||
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"They should ban striking as I’m sure the Government would never erode workers rights. In today’s modern society with a highly educated population, we no longer need collective representation as a modern worker would be able to negotiate decent pay and conditions on their own. I mean modern bosses care about their workforce and regularly go out of their way to ensure they’re not exploited. This government and future ones would always be on the side of the populace and the Orwellian dystopian future some of you woke snowflakes fear shall never happen. Obviously I’m very optimistic about this and why shouldn’t I ? I mean Brexit has been a complete success, the NHS got that 38 million billion a month, inflation is at a record low, plenty of jobs for the plebs and we have the most honest PM of my lifetime. "I saw a post on social media recently. "These people striking are so weak. My conditions get worse every year and I never strike!" You don't say... | |||
Yeah, shower of twats. | |||
"They should ban striking as I’m sure the Government would never erode workers rights. In today’s modern society with a highly educated population, we no longer need collective representation as a modern worker would be able to negotiate decent pay and conditions on their own. I mean modern bosses care about their workforce and regularly go out of their way to ensure they’re not exploited. This government and future ones would always be on the side of the populace and the Orwellian dystopian future some of you woke snowflakes fear shall never happen. Obviously I’m very optimistic about this and why shouldn’t I ? I mean Brexit has been a complete success, the NHS got that 38 million billion a month, inflation is at a record low, plenty of jobs for the plebs and we have the most honest PM of my lifetime.
I saw a post on social media recently. "These people striking are so weak. My conditions get worse every year and I never strike!"
You don't say..."When I did my course to be a Union Rep, we discussed if you won your case at a tribunal for unfair dismissal, the employer had to reinstate you. At the time I think they only had to pay you a couple of thousand pounds. So obviously it was hardly a concern for some dodgy employers being taken to an employment tribunal. However one guy piped up, ‘I wouldn’t want to go back and work for them anyway !’ There was a collective groan around the room, after he said that. He totally missed the point  and this guy was being trained to represent people at disciplinary meetings …. 
As much as I love Unions and totally back them I always advise to make sure you know your rights as well. | |||
"They should ban striking as I’m sure the Government would never erode workers rights. In today’s modern society with a highly educated population, we no longer need collective representation as a modern worker would be able to negotiate decent pay and conditions on their own. I mean modern bosses care about their workforce and regularly go out of their way to ensure they’re not exploited. This government and future ones would always be on the side of the populace and the Orwellian dystopian future some of you woke snowflakes fear shall never happen. Obviously I’m very optimistic about this and why shouldn’t I ? I mean Brexit has been a complete success, the NHS got that 38 million billion a month, inflation is at a record low, plenty of jobs for the plebs and we have the most honest PM of my lifetime.
I saw a post on social media recently. "These people striking are so weak. My conditions get worse every year and I never strike!"
You don't say...
When I did my course to be a Union Rep, we discussed if you won your case at a tribunal for unfair dismissal, the employer had to reinstate you. At the time I think they only had to pay you a couple of thousand pounds. So obviously it was hardly a concern for some dodgy employers being taken to an employment tribunal.
However one guy piped up, ‘I wouldn’t want to go back and work for them anyway !’ There was a collective groan around the room, after he said that.
He totally missed the point and this guy was being trained to represent people at disciplinary meetings ….
As much as I love Unions and totally back them I always advise to make sure you know your rights as well. "Absolutely. | |||
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"I say that yes they should, but of course it is the commuters who will be affected the most, it comes after the tube will have a 24 hr strike. Passengers are being urged to avoid the tube today, as a strike by thousands of workers in a dispute over jobs and pension, some lines will be open but with severe delays. Train drivers should be replaced by self driving trains ,we have proven technology that can do their jobs ,They are the last bastion of the militants " There’s no proven technology for driving mainline trains in real world conditions. There’s some, limited, technology for allowing automated running at low speeds in strictly control environments. If you’d ever been in the cab of a train running “ATO” through the core, you’d know that the sole purpose of that system is to have the train drive harder and faster than any responsible human driver would ever consider safe. | |||
"Incorrect, theres a hell of alot more too it." I'd like to discuss this with you, but I don't want to derail this thread. Could you please send me a DM if you're happy to chat to me. | |||
"Anyone should have the right to withdraw their labour if they have a grievance. Some professions don’t strike. Good for them, but that’s their choice. Nurses don’t strike, do you think they should?" The RCN has stated that over 50% of their membership would back industrial action over declining pay and working conditions, although many more were in favour of action ‘less than a strike’. Nurses haven’t gone on strike in recent history for moral reasons. That doesn’t mean they wouldn’t if we the public and NHS England continue to take that stance for granted while whittling away at their conditions. | |||
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"I couldn't disagree more re-machine driven trains. There has to be a human override Nonsense. The DLR has been operating with no drivers for years with only one accident (which was caused by a train being manually driven). The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same." No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button  . Eventually yes they will be all automatic but still manned, just not by an actual tube operator like they are now and unlikely to be on over 60K as they are now. More a station staff salary.
In answer to the op. Yes they should be able to strike. | |||
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"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same." "No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button ."Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do? | |||
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"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?"No because I really cannot be bothered. But yes I know every single thing a driver has to do. Every single thing. | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?"To fulfil the role of a train driver you need to be able to concentrate, and remain focused for extended periods of time. Significantly more so than 95% of the population can manage. You need to be able to absorb, retain and accurately recall a huge amount of information, in the form of rules, regulations, routes, signals, stopping patterns, train handling, procedures, faults and failures. You need to be a rule follower, primarily, but capable of making independent, rational decisions, based on previous experiences and known circumstances in the rare occurrence of a novel event. It helps massively if you’re a “visual thinker”. You must remain calm under pressure. You need to have swift reactions and a high level of coordination. You need full spectrum colour vision and eyesight above a certain standard. You need to be capable of working for extended periods alone; and that’s a characteristic harder to find than you might imagine. You need to be prepared to work shifts, covering the entire 24/7 working week. Finally, you need to be the kind of person that people are happy to have responsible for several million pounds worth of train, and up to 1000 lives sat behind. More than 95% of the people who attempt the train drivers’ psychometric testing fail. A good percentage of those that pass go on to fail at a later period in their training or only do the job for a short time. | |||
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"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?"I spend time on the job yes, and experience mainline testing power/brake, signal obeyance, signaller communications, the list goes on | |||
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"No…..tube drivers make over 100k ffs. Júnior doctors too, they need to grow up "It’s not tube drivers that are on strike nor are junior doctors | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?
I spend time on the job yes, and experience mainline testing power/brake, signal obeyance, signaller communications, the list goes on "Sounds very complex , no wonder they are paid £100K . How many questions in the signal obeyance exam ? Red is nap time right? | |||
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"Striking has been massively overused by tube unions. When I lived in London, Bob crowe called strikes several times a year, and if you looked at what some of the strikes were for, it was disgrace. One strike when I lived in London was because a driver had been sacked for driving a tube while d*unk. Indefensible, but Bob clocked his fingers and London gets shut down. Tube drivers were very well paid, with short working hours, and Bob was still calling strikes to demand more money. Complete abuse of the powers of striking " In the balance of fairness , Tube Management haven’t helped the situation many times. I recall they tried to operate a shift pattern that would mean a driver working nights was expected to turn up for work the following morning. If that isn’t putting passengers in danger don’t know what is . | |||
"Striking has been massively overused by tube unions. When I lived in London, Bob crowe called strikes several times a year, and if you looked at what some of the strikes were for, it was disgrace. One strike when I lived in London was because a driver had been sacked for driving a tube while d*unk. Indefensible, but Bob clocked his fingers and London gets shut down. Tube drivers were very well paid, with short working hours, and Bob was still calling strikes to demand more money. Complete abuse of the powers of striking In the balance of fairness , Tube Management haven’t helped the situation many times. I recall they tried to operate a shift pattern that would mean a driver working nights was expected to turn up for work the following morning. If that isn’t putting passengers in danger don’t know what is . " Bob Crowe defended a d*unk train driver | |||
"To fulfil the role of a train driver you need to be able to concentrate, and remain focused for extended periods of time. Significantly more so than 95% of the population can manage. ..." Thank you for taking the time to write a sensible and considered post. Unfortuanately it seems that I have failed to explain myself properly. My postings on this were in response to someone that said we needed humans in the system to ensure safety. I responded by saying that tube train drivers on some lines don't actually drive the trains, they just push the buttons that let the train move to the next station. I was trying to tell people that a lot of the tube system is automated, and that this proves that fully automated systems can be trusted. I wasn't attempting to say that tube train drivers are lazy, or stupid. I apologise if anyone thought I was saying that drivers do nothing useful. I should also make it clear that I am only talking about those specific tube lines. Train drivers on mainline routes do actually drive the trains, and have a much harder job. | |||
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"To fulfil the role of a train driver you need to be able to concentrate, and remain focused for extended periods of time. Significantly more so than 95% of the population can manage. ... Thank you for taking the time to write a sensible and considered post. Unfortuanately it seems that I have failed to explain myself properly. My postings on this were in response to someone that said we needed humans in the system to ensure safety. I responded by saying that tube train drivers on some lines don't actually drive the trains, they just push the buttons that let the train move to the next station. I was trying to tell people that a lot of the tube system is automated, and that this proves that fully automated systems can be trusted. I wasn't attempting to say that tube train drivers are lazy, or stupid. I apologise if anyone thought I was saying that drivers do nothing useful. I should also make it clear that I am only talking about those specific tube lines. Train drivers on mainline routes do actually drive the trains, and have a much harder job." The only thing stopping automation is the unions. Most metro systems around the world in cities and airports have been fully automated for years | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?
I spend time on the job yes, and experience mainline testing power/brake, signal obeyance, signaller communications, the list goes on
Sounds very complex , no wonder they are paid £100K . How many questions in the signal obeyance exam ? Red is nap time right?"Where did you get that figure from?! They are not on 100k a year. | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?
I spend time on the job yes, and experience mainline testing power/brake, signal obeyance, signaller communications, the list goes on
Sounds very complex , no wonder they are paid £100K . How many questions in the signal obeyance exam ? Red is nap time right?
Where did you get that figure from?! They are not on 100k a year. "If they are I’m off to operate a train/tube!! | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?
I spend time on the job yes, and experience mainline testing power/brake, signal obeyance, signaller communications, the list goes on
Sounds very complex , no wonder they are paid £100K . How many questions in the signal obeyance exam ? Red is nap time right?
Where did you get that figure from?! They are not on 100k a year.
If they are I’m off to operate a train/tube!! ". I think we all are! | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?
I spend time on the job yes, and experience mainline testing power/brake, signal obeyance, signaller communications, the list goes on
Sounds very complex , no wonder they are paid £100K . How many questions in the signal obeyance exam ? Red is nap time right?
Where did you get that figure from?! They are not on 100k a year. "Some tube drivers are indeed earning over 100k. The average is 60k, and most earn 60-70k. 43 days holiday, 36 hour working week, retire on pension at 50. … and then they go on strike because a d*unk tube driver is disciplined … | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?
I spend time on the job yes, and experience mainline testing power/brake, signal obeyance, signaller communications, the list goes on
Sounds very complex , no wonder they are paid £100K . How many questions in the signal obeyance exam ? Red is nap time right?
Where did you get that figure from?! They are not on 100k a year.
Some tube drivers are indeed earning over 100k. The average is 60k, and most earn 60-70k.
43 days holiday, 36 hour working week, retire on pension at 50.
… and then they go on strike because a d*unk tube driver is disciplined … "I’m not disputing any of the other things you said. Tube drivers are not on 100k a year. | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?
I spend time on the job yes, and experience mainline testing power/brake, signal obeyance, signaller communications, the list goes on
Sounds very complex , no wonder they are paid £100K . How many questions in the signal obeyance exam ? Red is nap time right?
Where did you get that figure from?! They are not on 100k a year.
Some tube drivers are indeed earning over 100k. The average is 60k, and most earn 60-70k.
43 days holiday, 36 hour working week, retire on pension at 50.
… and then they go on strike because a d*unk tube driver is disciplined …
I’m not disputing any of the other things you said. Tube drivers are not on 100k a year. "Not all of them are, but some are earning over 100k 60-70k average, with 43 days hols, 36 hour week and pension at 50 is a phenomenal deal. | |||
"The Victoria line was built to be fully automatic, but the unions wouldn't allow it. They insisted on drivers being put onto each train. That means that today, the driver's job is to open and close the doors, then to push the buttons that allow the train to move to the next station. The Jubilee, Central, Northern, District, Circle, Hammersmith and City, and Metropolitan lines are all the same. No they’re not. And a driver’s job is a lot more than pushing a button .
Do you have any experience of driving tube trains? Can you tell us what else the drivers have to do?
To fulfil the role of a train driver you need to be able to concentrate, and remain focused for extended periods of time. Significantly more so than 95% of the population can manage.
You need to be able to absorb, retain and accurately recall a huge amount of information, in the form of rules, regulations, routes, signals, stopping patterns, train handling, procedures, faults and failures.
You need to be a rule follower, primarily, but capable of making independent, rational decisions, based on previous experiences and known circumstances in the rare occurrence of a novel event.
It helps massively if you’re a “visual thinker”.
You must remain calm under pressure.
You need to have swift reactions and a high level of coordination.
You need full spectrum colour vision and eyesight above a certain standard.
You need to be capable of working for extended periods alone; and that’s a characteristic harder to find than you might imagine.
You need to be prepared to work shifts, covering the entire 24/7 working week.
Finally, you need to be the kind of person that people are happy to have responsible for several million pounds worth of train, and up to 1000 lives sat behind.
More than 95% of the people who attempt the train drivers’ psychometric testing fail. A good percentage of those that pass go on to fail at a later period in their training or only do the job for a short time. "But at the end of the day your still just a train driver.  | |||
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"Some tube drivers are indeed earning over 100k. The average is 60k, and most earn 60-70k. 43 days holiday, 36 hour working week, retire on pension at 50. … and then they go on strike because a d*unk tube driver is disciplined … " Tube drivers are on £56,946 p/a. (Source ASLEF website). To earn £100K a year they’d have to work another 27 hours a week extra. In theory not impossible, but it would require working 13 days on, one off, for a whole year, less your annual leave; which even if there was that much overtime available (and there isn’t), it would likely result in burnout. Holidays on the railway are, in the main, rostered. Ie you’re told when you’re having them. Most operating companies have significantly less than the 43 that TFL grant. Southeastern, as an example, have twenty eight, up to twenty of which are rostered. The RMT didn’t strike because a d*unk driver was disciplined. Being d*unk in charge of a train is a criminal offence; if the driver had actually been d*unk he’d be in prison. The driver concerned was a type2 diabetic that failed a random breath test (using equipment known to record false positives in those circumstances) and denied a urine test. The dispute was over the company’s misuse of their own policies and the refusal of an appeal. Anyone, in any profession, can retire at whatever age they want, provided their lifestyle and pension provision allows for it. To earn a full pension in the railway pension scheme you need forty years of contributions; so even someone starting straight from school would be taking a reduced pension if they retire at 50. | |||
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"Anyone should have the right to withdraw their labour if they have a grievance. Some professions don’t strike. Good for them, but that’s their choice. Nurses don’t strike, do you think they should?" i think anylne should be able to strike. with emergency services and health care it would have to be carefully arranged however | |||
"i think they should be able to express the views they have, but to strike in the way they are isnt going to gather public support. i think the main problem is the amount the companies running the rains are making in profit, while still having goverment hand outs. the rain servive is on its knees, have you been on a train recently, a truely hatefull experiance, dirty, often late and very expensive trains. what they do in other countries, is instead of stopping service, they just open the ticket barriers, so there is no money being taken, the service goes on, yet the people in charge get no money, nothing works better than cutting off the income to the people in charge, yet the public still get the service they need, win win. I dont think they should moraly stike over pay tho atm, most jobs on the railways are well paid compaired to similar jobs in other sectors, and i dont just mean the drivers, i know a few people who work on the railwaays, mainly people who maintain the network, tracks etc, and they dont have it bad really. most people have seen no pay rise for years, i went a decade without a payrise a few years ago, and alot have lost jobs, taken pay cuts even, so they are risking loosing public support if thats the case. the timing is wrong, read the room" It’s a difficult situation. Train operating companies employ their drivers under contracts written within a framework called DRI, set out in law when the railway was privatised, which provides for an annual increase in salary in line with inflation. This has not happened since 2019, and we are all aware of how much inflation is currently devaluing wages. Railway workers aren’t asking to be paid more for doing the same job, they’re asking to be paid at a rate to enable them to buy the same amount of goods and services as they could last year in return for their services. Whilst it’s a valid standpoint to say “I’ve not had a pay rise, so nobody else should have one”, and it’s fine for you to hold it, it’s equally valid for me to say “I’m asking for a pay increment to keep pace with inflation, and you should ask for one too”. The railway benefits from strong union representation and a long history of negotiated settlements. People outside the industry should be watching to see how it pans out, because whichever way it does is likely to be repeated across other industries over the coming months. | |||
"Some tube drivers are indeed earning over 100k. The average is 60k, and most earn 60-70k. 43 days holiday, 36 hour working week, retire on pension at 50. … and then they go on strike because a d*unk tube driver is disciplined … Tube drivers are on £56,946 p/a. (Source ASLEF website). To earn £100K a year they’d have to work another 27 hours a week extra. In theory not impossible, but it would require working 13 days on, one off, for a whole year, less your annual leave; which even if there was that much overtime available (and there isn’t), it would likely result in burnout. Holidays on the railway are, in the main, rostered. Ie you’re told when you’re having them. Most operating companies have significantly less than the 43 that TFL grant. Southeastern, as an example, have twenty eight, up to twenty of which are rostered. The RMT didn’t strike because a d*unk driver was disciplined. Being d*unk in charge of a train is a criminal offence; if the driver had actually been d*unk he’d be in prison. The driver concerned was a type2 diabetic that failed a random breath test (using equipment known to record false positives in those circumstances) and denied a urine test. The dispute was over the company’s misuse of their own policies and the refusal of an appeal. Anyone, in any profession, can retire at whatever age they want, provided their lifestyle and pension provision allows for it. To earn a full pension in the railway pension scheme you need forty years of contributions; so even someone starting straight from school would be taking a reduced pension if they retire at 50. " There are a small number of drivers earning over 100k. No point in denying this | |||
"i think they should be able to express the views they have, but to strike in the way they are isnt going to gather public support. i think the main problem is the amount the companies running the rains are making in profit, while still having goverment hand outs. the rain servive is on its knees, have you been on a train recently, a truely hatefull experiance, dirty, often late and very expensive trains. what they do in other countries, is instead of stopping service, they just open the ticket barriers, so there is no money being taken, the service goes on, yet the people in charge get no money, nothing works better than cutting off the income to the people in charge, yet the public still get the service they need, win win. I dont think they should moraly stike over pay tho atm, most jobs on the railways are well paid compaired to similar jobs in other sectors, and i dont just mean the drivers, i know a few people who work on the railwaays, mainly people who maintain the network, tracks etc, and they dont have it bad really. most people have seen no pay rise for years, i went a decade without a payrise a few years ago, and alot have lost jobs, taken pay cuts even, so they are risking loosing public support if thats the case. the timing is wrong, read the room It’s a difficult situation. Train operating companies employ their drivers under contracts written within a framework called DRI, set out in law when the railway was privatised, which provides for an annual increase in salary in line with inflation. This has not happened since 2019, and we are all aware of how much inflation is currently devaluing wages. Railway workers aren’t asking to be paid more for doing the same job, they’re asking to be paid at a rate to enable them to buy the same amount of goods and services as they could last year in return for their services. Whilst it’s a valid standpoint to say “I’ve not had a pay rise, so nobody else should have one”, and it’s fine for you to hold it, it’s equally valid for me to say “I’m asking for a pay increment to keep pace with inflation, and you should ask for one too”. The railway benefits from strong union representation and a long history of negotiated settlements. People outside the industry should be watching to see how it pans out, because whichever way it does is likely to be repeated across other industries over the coming months. " in utopia i would agree, im a contracter tho, and there will always be someone prepered to work for less, im lucky in that i have a good reputation, so usualy get the jobs, when times are hard, we all have to tighten our belts | |||
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" There are a small number of drivers earning over 100k. No point in denying this " Hand on heart, I genuinely don’t think there are. Whilst it is, as I say, theoretically possible, I don’t think it’s physically possible. Not on the tube, and not on the majority of operating companies. If, and it’s a big if, there are drivers at any companies earning over £100K then they are doing so at the expense of all their social time and, most likely, at some considerable cost to their health. What reward would you feel appropriate for 63+ hours a week, every week, ‘round the clock and over weekends and bank holidays? The RMT and ASLEF both, in common with pretty much all other unions, are fundamentally against working overtime. Instead, they argue for more staff. On the railway, rest day working is done at the companies’ request, not the workforce. It’s cheaper to pay overtime than employ enough staff to guarantee a 100% reliable service. No comments about your other points I countered? | |||
" There are a small number of drivers earning over 100k. No point in denying this Hand on heart, I genuinely don’t think there are. Whilst it is, as I say, theoretically possible, I don’t think it’s physically possible. Not on the tube, and not on the majority of operating companies. If, and it’s a big if, there are drivers at any companies earning over £100K then they are doing so at the expense of all their social time and, most likely, at some considerable cost to their health. What reward would you feel appropriate for 63+ hours a week, every week, ‘round the clock and over weekends and bank holidays? The RMT and ASLEF both, in common with pretty much all other unions, are fundamentally against working overtime. Instead, they argue for more staff. On the railway, rest day working is done at the companies’ request, not the workforce. It’s cheaper to pay overtime than employ enough staff to guarantee a 100% reliable service. No comments about your other points I countered? " What train drivers are working 63 plus hours a week? The average is 35 hours. | |||
" There are a small number of drivers earning over 100k. No point in denying this Hand on heart, I genuinely don’t think there are. Whilst it is, as I say, theoretically possible, I don’t think it’s physically possible. Not on the tube, and not on the majority of operating companies. If, and it’s a big if, there are drivers at any companies earning over £100K then they are doing so at the expense of all their social time and, most likely, at some considerable cost to their health. What reward would you feel appropriate for 63+ hours a week, every week, ‘round the clock and over weekends and bank holidays? The RMT and ASLEF both, in common with pretty much all other unions, are fundamentally against working overtime. Instead, they argue for more staff. On the railway, rest day working is done at the companies’ request, not the workforce. It’s cheaper to pay overtime than employ enough staff to guarantee a 100% reliable service. No comments about your other points I countered? What train drivers are working 63 plus hours a week? The average is 35 hours. " Also they legally cannot work more than 9 hours A day and have to have 2 rest days. So at the very maximum they can only work 45 hours a week. | |||
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"My friend is a train driver and he's a higher rate tax payer. Why the fuck" The technique of “fiscal drag” that employers use to lower wages by awarding less than inflation pay rises while charging more for their products/services is also used by the treasury as they don’t increase thresholds on earnings, property, capital gains etc in line with inflation. Lots of “ordinary working people” can find themselves in the higher rate tax bracket. I know lorry drivers and tradesmen that are earning more than I am. | |||
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"Yes.. I think they should.. I think the whole world should.. Get the government's something to actually think about... We are all being treated like puppets.. And taking it.. Sad state the world is in "No I'm sorry they shouldn't be able to strike they bring London to a standstill every time they this. Train drivers know they can hold people to ransom and what more do they want from the government they have good working hours and good pay. | |||
"Yes.. I think they should.. I think the whole world should.. Get the government's something to actually think about... We are all being treated like puppets.. And taking it.. Sad state the world is in "Also it's not the government that pay for this it's the tax payer and the fare paying public. | |||
"Yes.. I think they should.. I think the whole world should.. Get the government's something to actually think about... We are all being treated like puppets.. And taking it.. Sad state the world is in
Also it's not the government that pay for this it's the tax payer and the fare paying public. "It's the government that pull the strings tho and make the rules... While they all have their own rules.. The rest of us have to suffer | |||
"Yes.. I think they should.. I think the whole world should.. Get the government's something to actually think about... We are all being treated like puppets.. And taking it.. Sad state the world is in
Also it's not the government that pay for this it's the tax payer and the fare paying public.
It's the government that pull the strings tho and make the rules... While they all have their own rules.. The rest of us have to suffer"And where do you think the government gets the money To give already well paid train drivers who are working on average 35 hours a week. | |||
"Yes.. I think they should.. I think the whole world should.. Get the government's something to actually think about... We are all being treated like puppets.. And taking it.. Sad state the world is in
Also it's not the government that pay for this it's the tax payer and the fare paying public.
It's the government that pull the strings tho and make the rules... While they all have their own rules.. The rest of us have to suffer
And where do you think the government gets the money To give already well paid train drivers who are working on average 35 hours a week. "From the people who pay the taxes, but who is it that decides what taxes and what we pay? The government. Ive met a few train drivers and not one, only works 35hrs a week | |||
"Yes.. I think they should.. I think the whole world should.. Get the government's something to actually think about... We are all being treated like puppets.. And taking it.. Sad state the world is in
Also it's not the government that pay for this it's the tax payer and the fare paying public.
It's the government that pull the strings tho and make the rules... While they all have their own rules.. The rest of us have to suffer
And where do you think the government gets the money To give already well paid train drivers who are working on average 35 hours a week.
From the people who pay the taxes, but who is it that decides what taxes and what we pay? The government.
Ive met a few train drivers and not one, only works 35hrs a week"Well they certainly don't work more than 45 hours a week because because they legally cannot. | |||
"Yes.. I think they should.. I think the whole world should.. Get the government's something to actually think about... We are all being treated like puppets.. And taking it.. Sad state the world is in
Also it's not the government that pay for this it's the tax payer and the fare paying public.
It's the government that pull the strings tho and make the rules... While they all have their own rules.. The rest of us have to suffer
And where do you think the government gets the money To give already well paid train drivers who are working on average 35 hours a week.
From the people who pay the taxes, but who is it that decides what taxes and what we pay? The government.
Ive met a few train drivers and not one, only works 35hrs a week
Well they certainly don't work more than 45 hours a week because because they legally cannot. "Legal or not.. Many people work above the 35hr threshold | |||
"What train drivers are working 63 plus hours a week? The average is 35 hours. Also they legally cannot work more than 9 hours A day and have to have 2 rest days. So at the very maximum they can only work 45 hours a week. " Barely any of them. That’s my point. I think you are confusing lorry drivers’ hours with train drivers’. They are similarly regulated, but not the same. The Hidden Regulations specify maximum driving hours and rests. Maximum rostered turns are 12 hours (with no driving after 11). Minimum of 12 hours off between shifts. Maximum of 13 consecutive shifts before a minimum of 24 hours rest. So, in theory, it’s possible to do seven consecutive 12 hour days, which is the basis for the inflated wage claims you see in the press. In practice, however, most operators have a 9 to 10 hour maximum shift length. My operator limits my shifts to 9:15, and if I worked seven consecutive days (four days working and three overtime) then that’s 64:45 in a week. | |||
"What train drivers are working 63 plus hours a week? The average is 35 hours. Also they legally cannot work more than 9 hours A day and have to have 2 rest days. So at the very maximum they can only work 45 hours a week. Barely any of them. That’s my point. I think you are confusing lorry drivers’ hours with train drivers’. They are similarly regulated, but not the same. The Hidden Regulations specify maximum driving hours and rests. Maximum rostered turns are 12 hours (with no driving after 11). Minimum of 12 hours off between shifts. Maximum of 13 consecutive shifts before a minimum of 24 hours rest. So, in theory, it’s possible to do seven consecutive 12 hour days, which is the basis for the inflated wage claims you see in the press. In practice, however, most operators have a 9 to 10 hour maximum shift length. My operator limits my shifts to 9:15, and if I worked seven consecutive days (four days working and three overtime) then that’s 64:45 in a week. " I'm not confusing train drivers with lorry drivers at all in fact these figures came from the RMT. Their very own statistics state that the vast majority of their members are working no more are working no more than 37.9 hours a week. | |||
"What train drivers are working 63 plus hours a week? The average is 35 hours. Also they legally cannot work more than 9 hours A day and have to have 2 rest days. So at the very maximum they can only work 45 hours a week. Barely any of them. That’s my point. I think you are confusing lorry drivers’ hours with train drivers’. They are similarly regulated, but not the same. The Hidden Regulations specify maximum driving hours and rests. Maximum rostered turns are 12 hours (with no driving after 11). Minimum of 12 hours off between shifts. Maximum of 13 consecutive shifts before a minimum of 24 hours rest. So, in theory, it’s possible to do seven consecutive 12 hour days, which is the basis for the inflated wage claims you see in the press. In practice, however, most operators have a 9 to 10 hour maximum shift length. My operator limits my shifts to 9:15, and if I worked seven consecutive days (four days working and three overtime) then that’s 64:45 in a week. " You must be a train driver then I assume. Tube drivers can’t work those hours. | |||
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"And for the record tube drivers aren’t striking over pay. I think the train drivers are, I’m not sure about them. " The tube drivers strike over pretty much everything. | |||
"And for the record tube drivers aren’t striking over pay. I think the train drivers are, I’m not sure about them. The tube drivers strike over pretty much everything. " They have strong unions. Most are ASLEF though. Not many are RMT. That’s mostly train staff | |||
"And for the record tube drivers aren’t striking over pay. I think the train drivers are, I’m not sure about them. The tube drivers strike over pretty much everything. They have strong unions. Most are ASLEF though. Not many are RMT. That’s mostly train staff " They do have a strong Union however they only need a small portion of members to vote for a strike it's never the majority. | |||
"I'm not confusing train drivers with lorry drivers at all in fact these figures came from the RMT. Their very own statistics state that the vast majority of their members are working no more are working no more than 37.9 hours a week. " Sorry. I’m not having a dig. Just trying to illustrate how it’s technically possible. Like I said in my earlier post, I genuinely don’t think there’s anyone working those hours. I work an average 35 hour/4 day week, and I don’t work overtime at all as a rule. | |||
"I'm not confusing train drivers with lorry drivers at all in fact these figures came from the RMT. Their very own statistics state that the vast majority of their members are working no more are working no more than 37.9 hours a week. Sorry. I’m not having a dig. Just trying to illustrate how it’s technically possible. Like I said in my earlier post, I genuinely don’t think there’s anyone working those hours. I work an average 35 hour/4 day week, and I don’t work overtime at all as a rule. " It may well be possible but it's not the reality for most train drivers. | |||
"You must be a train driver then I assume. Tube drivers can’t work those hours. " Yes, Mainline. | |||
"I'm not confusing train drivers with lorry drivers at all in fact these figures came from the RMT. Their very own statistics state that the vast majority of their members are working no more are working no more than 37.9 hours a week. Sorry. I’m not having a dig. Just trying to illustrate how it’s technically possible. Like I said in my earlier post, I genuinely don’t think there’s anyone working those hours. I work an average 35 hour/4 day week, and I don’t work overtime at all as a rule. It may well be possible but it's not the reality for most train drivers. " Not sure about main line but tube drivers aren’t allowed to do overtime or work rest days. Unless a train is delayed/stuck of course but they can’t do overtime. | |||
"I'm not confusing train drivers with lorry drivers at all in fact these figures came from the RMT. Their very own statistics state that the vast majority of their members are working no more are working no more than 37.9 hours a week. Sorry. I’m not having a dig. Just trying to illustrate how it’s technically possible. Like I said in my earlier post, I genuinely don’t think there’s anyone working those hours. I work an average 35 hour/4 day week, and I don’t work overtime at all as a rule. It may well be possible but it's not the reality for most train drivers. Not sure about main line but tube drivers aren’t allowed to do overtime or work rest days. Unless a train is delayed/stuck of course but they can’t do overtime. " Yes that's what I posted above. Train drivers are also limited to the amount of hours they can work. During the pandemic some train drivers were going above that that's why the rules changed from 45 hours a week to 80 hours in 2 weeks. | |||
"I'm not confusing train drivers with lorry drivers at all in fact these figures came from the RMT. Their very own statistics state that the vast majority of their members are working no more are working no more than 37.9 hours a week. Sorry. I’m not having a dig. Just trying to illustrate how it’s technically possible. Like I said in my earlier post, I genuinely don’t think there’s anyone working those hours. I work an average 35 hour/4 day week, and I don’t work overtime at all as a rule. It may well be possible but it's not the reality for most train drivers. Not sure about main line but tube drivers aren’t allowed to do overtime or work rest days. Unless a train is delayed/stuck of course but they can’t do overtime. Yes that's what I posted above. Train drivers are also limited to the amount of hours they can work. During the pandemic some train drivers were going above that that's why the rules changed from 45 hours a week to 80 hours in 2 weeks. " Ah right. I’ve no idea about mainline. | |||
"I'm not confusing train drivers with lorry drivers at all in fact these figures came from the RMT. Their very own statistics state that the vast majority of their members are working no more are working no more than 37.9 hours a week. Sorry. I’m not having a dig. Just trying to illustrate how it’s technically possible. Like I said in my earlier post, I genuinely don’t think there’s anyone working those hours. I work an average 35 hour/4 day week, and I don’t work overtime at all as a rule. It may well be possible but it's not the reality for most train drivers. Not sure about main line but tube drivers aren’t allowed to do overtime or work rest days. Unless a train is delayed/stuck of course but they can’t do overtime. Yes that's what I posted above. Train drivers are also limited to the amount of hours they can work. During the pandemic some train drivers were going above that that's why the rules changed from 45 hours a week to 80 hours in 2 weeks. Ah right. I’ve no idea about mainline. " I don't think it's as rigid as the rules for tube drivers but there are legal limits. | |||
"I'm not confusing train drivers with lorry drivers at all in fact these figures came from the RMT. Their very own statistics state that the vast majority of their members are working no more are working no more than 37.9 hours a week. Sorry. I’m not having a dig. Just trying to illustrate how it’s technically possible. Like I said in my earlier post, I genuinely don’t think there’s anyone working those hours. I work an average 35 hour/4 day week, and I don’t work overtime at all as a rule. It may well be possible but it's not the reality for most train drivers. Not sure about main line but tube drivers aren’t allowed to do overtime or work rest days. Unless a train is delayed/stuck of course but they can’t do overtime. Yes that's what I posted above. Train drivers are also limited to the amount of hours they can work. During the pandemic some train drivers were going above that that's why the rules changed from 45 hours a week to 80 hours in 2 weeks. Ah right. I’ve no idea about mainline. I don't think it's as rigid as the rules for tube drivers but there are legal limits. " Yeah from what I’ve heard it doesn’t seem to be. | |||
"They do have a strong Union however they only need a small portion of members to vote for a strike it's never the majority. " Please don’t think I’m trying to pick a fight. There are minimum numbers required by law for any industrial action. There has to be a majority in returned ballots. Minimum turnout has to be in excess of 50% of the electorate. Minimum return of 40% of the entire electorate in favour of action. We left the EU on a smaller mandate than that. In practice, although an 80.5% yes vote on a return of 50.5% would be legal, it wouldn’t likely be considered enough support for action. The RMT’s ballot (not train drivers, platform staff, guards, ticket office etc) retuned 89% in favour of action from a 71% turnout, so a little over 63% of the workforce. Not a small portion really. Staff don’t do what the Union tells them, staff instruct the Union how they want things to proceed. Negotiations failed, and the Unions are asking their members what they want to do. That’s why there was a ballot. The result of the ballot was that 63% of the workforce were fed up enough to be prepared to lose pay to make their dissatisfaction clear. When the results of the ASLEF ballots are in then we will be able to see how their members feel. | |||
"It may well be possible but it's not the reality for most train drivers. " Absolutely. It’s certainly not the reality for me. | |||
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" There are a small number of drivers earning over 100k. No point in denying this Hand on heart, I genuinely don’t think there are. Whilst it is, as I say, theoretically possible, I don’t think it’s physically possible. Not on the tube, and not on the majority of operating companies. If, and it’s a big if, there are drivers at any companies earning over £100K then they are doing so at the expense of all their social time and, most likely, at some considerable cost to their health. What reward would you feel appropriate for 63+ hours a week, every week, ‘round the clock and over weekends and bank holidays? The RMT and ASLEF both, in common with pretty much all other unions, are fundamentally against working overtime. Instead, they argue for more staff. On the railway, rest day working is done at the companies’ request, not the workforce. It’s cheaper to pay overtime than employ enough staff to guarantee a 100% reliable service. No comments about your other points I countered? " The evening standard did an article a few years ago on this. And at that stage there were 10 drivers warning more than 100k. It’s true | |||
Bloody hell! That’s just pure greed! I bet hardly anyone had more than 5% this year if that!! | |||
"They are asking for a 10% pay increase
Bloody hell! That’s just pure greed! I bet hardly anyone had more than 5% this year if that!! "Whilst 10% is probably an unlikely achievement, given the rate of inflation, why is it greed? | |||
"The evening standard did an article a few years ago on this. And at that stage there were 10 drivers warning more than 100k. It’s true " Ten. 0.045% of a workforce of approximately 22,000 is hardly a representative sample. The majority of train drivers, including myself, are on half that. | |||
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"They should be able to strike, as long as everyone striking is doing it for the right reasons! Not for a jolly day off I mean! " A jolly day off with no pay! | |||
" There are a small number of drivers earning over 100k. No point in denying this Hand on heart, I genuinely don’t think there are. Whilst it is, as I say, theoretically possible, I don’t think it’s physically possible. Not on the tube, and not on the majority of operating companies. If, and it’s a big if, there are drivers at any companies earning over £100K then they are doing so at the expense of all their social time and, most likely, at some considerable cost to their health. What reward would you feel appropriate for 63+ hours a week, every week, ‘round the clock and over weekends and bank holidays? The RMT and ASLEF both, in common with pretty much all other unions, are fundamentally against working overtime. Instead, they argue for more staff. On the railway, rest day working is done at the companies’ request, not the workforce. It’s cheaper to pay overtime than employ enough staff to guarantee a 100% reliable service. No comments about your other points I countered? The evening standard did an article a few years ago on this. And at that stage there were 10 drivers warning more than 100k. It’s true " 4 not 10. And they weren’t just tube drivers. They were highly skilled trainers/instructor operators which is a higher grade (and even that grade doesn’t earn anything like that as a rule) Like I said before numerous times. Tube drivers do not earn £100K or anywhere near that. | |||
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"Aren't they on about pensions not pay?? " London Underground is not about pay. Not sure on mainline. | |||
"They are asking for a 10% pay increase
Bloody hell! That’s just pure greed! I bet hardly anyone had more than 5% this year if that!!
Whilst 10% is probably an unlikely achievement, given the rate of inflation, why is it greed?"Everyone; all trades, professions, industries and backgrounds, have had a real terms pay cut over the last three years, even if they’re taking home exactly the same amount, of approximately 15%. Even a 10% rise today doesn’t keep pace with inflation if you’ve not had a pay review since before the pandemic and is still, effectively, a pay cut. Notwithstanding that ^^^, it’s fairly standard industrial relations for one side to start low, and the other to start high, and settle somewhere in the middle. | |||
"Most companies annual pay rises are linked to the RPI, so you get a 0.5 % payrise if the cost of living goes up by 0.5. Now is 11%, a lot of companies are going back on their deals, but posting record profits, huge bonuses, and the workers get a pay freeze, so effectively an 11% pay cut..." Yep, exactly. "They should be able to strike, as long as everyone striking is doing it for the right reasons! Not for a jolly day off I mean! A jolly day off with no pay!" And exactly this too. It’s often forgotten in all the media shouting, but every day you don’t work is a day’s pay docked at the end of the month. Those in other Unions that refuse to cross picket lines lose a day’s pay for their principles too. Nobody strikes lightly. | |||
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"The time is long overdue for a national strike, teachers, NHS , firefighters, prison workers , police , care workers ,leisure workers , everybody! And demand a real rise in standards of living! Fully in line with the sharp rise in the cost of living!the merger pay increases for the last 10 years plus have been real term pay cuts and the Tories can no longer claim we are paying for the mistakes made by the former labour government, they have had more then enough time in power and inflicted enough austerity on us all, if it was going to work it would have worked by now! Instead we have lower incomes and worse services and corruption that has gone off the scale! I am quite frankly sick and tired of it!"  | |||
"The time is long overdue for a national strike, teachers, NHS , firefighters, prison workers , police , care workers ,leisure workers , everybody! And demand a real rise in standards of living! Fully in line with the sharp rise in the cost of living!the merger pay increases for the last 10 years plus have been real term pay cuts and the Tories can no longer claim we are paying for the mistakes made by the former labour government, they have had more then enough time in power and inflicted enough austerity on us all, if it was going to work it would have worked by now! Instead we have lower incomes and worse services and corruption that has gone off the scale! I am quite frankly sick and tired of it!" A general strike will achieve nothing except more misery and hardship for the general population. People keep moaning about this government but then they keep voting for them so... | |||
"They are asking for a 10% pay increase
Bloody hell! That’s just pure greed! I bet hardly anyone had more than 5% this year if that!! "We got 3% | |||
"The time is long overdue for a national strike, teachers, NHS , firefighters, prison workers , police , care workers ,leisure workers , everybody! And demand a real rise in standards of living! Fully in line with the sharp rise in the cost of living!the merger pay increases for the last 10 years plus have been real term pay cuts and the Tories can no longer claim we are paying for the mistakes made by the former labour government, they have had more then enough time in power and inflicted enough austerity on us all, if it was going to work it would have worked by now! Instead we have lower incomes and worse services and corruption that has gone off the scale! I am quite frankly sick and tired of it!" I don’t know if you noticed the covid pandemic or not … it was quite expensive | |||
"Most companies annual pay rises are linked to the RPI, so you get a 0.5 % payrise if the cost of living goes up by 0.5. Now is 11%, a lot of companies are going back on their deals, but posting record profits, huge bonuses, and the workers get a pay freeze, so effectively an 11% pay cut... Yep, exactly. They should be able to strike, as long as everyone striking is doing it for the right reasons! Not for a jolly day off I mean! A jolly day off with no pay! And exactly this too. It’s often forgotten in all the media shouting, but every day you don’t work is a day’s pay docked at the end of the month. Those in other Unions that refuse to cross picket lines lose a day’s pay for their principles too. Nobody strikes lightly. " Nobody strikes lightly? London Underground have a long history of striking at the drop of a hat | |||
" There are a small number of drivers earning over 100k. No point in denying this Hand on heart, I genuinely don’t think there are. Whilst it is, as I say, theoretically possible, I don’t think it’s physically possible. Not on the tube, and not on the majority of operating companies. If, and it’s a big if, there are drivers at any companies earning over £100K then they are doing so at the expense of all their social time and, most likely, at some considerable cost to their health. What reward would you feel appropriate for 63+ hours a week, every week, ‘round the clock and over weekends and bank holidays? The RMT and ASLEF both, in common with pretty much all other unions, are fundamentally against working overtime. Instead, they argue for more staff. On the railway, rest day working is done at the companies’ request, not the workforce. It’s cheaper to pay overtime than employ enough staff to guarantee a 100% reliable service. No comments about your other points I countered? The evening standard did an article a few years ago on this. And at that stage there were 10 drivers warning more than 100k. It’s true 4 not 10. And they weren’t just tube drivers. They were highly skilled trainers/instructor operators which is a higher grade (and even that grade doesn’t earn anything like that as a rule) Like I said before numerous times. Tube drivers do not earn £100K or anywhere near that. " The 2018 articles (standard, times etc) were based in a freedom of information act request, and clearly relate to drivers. You may be ignoring the enormous pension contributions that tfl make. If a driver contributes 5 per cent, tfl contribute 6.6 times that amount, 33 per cent. So a 60k salary becomes an 80k package. 100k salary? No. 100k package? Yes. | |||
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"When you start a job, your pay, terms and conditions, duties, responsibilities and privileges are all laid out. The requirements from the employee, in return for the rewards from the employer. TfL’s employees are entitled to all the benefits of working in that environment. Their pension is part of their overall package, just as much as their monthly take-home. Removing or altering anything in that package of reward, without negotiation or compensation, should not spark surprise that it results in industrial unrest. If you have a job, that you carry out as required by your employer, but once you have completed it they decide they won’t pay you as previously agreed, are you advocating that everyone should simply shrug their shoulders and forget it? Would you? Or would you choose to take action to attempt to recover your losses? I don’t know what you do for a living, but if you got to the end of the month and your boss (or customer) said “I’m only paying you three weeks” how would you react? I’ll say again. Staff don’t do the Unions’ bidding, the Unions act in accordance to their members wishes. " You seem to indicate that pensions have been taken away, and that workers are now seeking to recoup the lost funds. I can’t find anything that backs that up. Just quotes from tfl saying that pensions are unaffected, they want to discuss possible savings, and that rmt have gone on strike at the very start of discussions / negotiations. Rmt have a very long history of being trigger-happy when it comes to strike action. | |||
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"50 grand a year.....make the trains driverless and fuck the drivers off ...works in Japan...." Maybe if we had a decent level of investment in the rail infrastructure that would be possible. | |||
"50 grand a year.....make the trains driverless and fuck the drivers off ...works in Japan.... Maybe if we had a decent level of investment in the rail infrastructure that would be possible. " Seriously? How much was spent on the Elizabeth line? And how much does hs2 cost? | |||
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"50 grand a year.....make the trains driverless and fuck the drivers off ...works in Japan.... Maybe if we had a decent level of investment in the rail infrastructure that would be possible. Seriously? How much was spent on the Elizabeth line? And how much does hs2 cost? " How much has been spent on the two branch lines that serve our area in the NW? Tuppence ha'penny, that's how much. I can't even use the fuckers because there are steps to all the stations because no-one will invest in upgrades to install lifts! | |||
"50 grand a year.....make the trains driverless and fuck the drivers off ...works in Japan...." "Maybe if we had a decent level of investment in the rail infrastructure that would be possible. " The level of investment in the rail system is irrelevant, while the RMT continue to resist any progress in automation. | |||
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"50 grand a year.....make the trains driverless and fuck the drivers off ...works in Japan.... Maybe if we had a decent level of investment in the rail infrastructure that would be possible. The level of investment in the rail system is irrelevant, while the RMT continue to resist any progress in automation." Correct. Imagine their reaction if driverless trains were suggested on existing trains. They already hold us to ransom on the slightest whim, and always time their strikes themselves cause maximum disruption. | |||
"50 grand a year.....make the trains driverless and fuck the drivers off ...works in Japan.... Maybe if we had a decent level of investment in the rail infrastructure that would be possible. The level of investment in the rail system is irrelevant, while the RMT continue to resist any progress in automation. Correct. Imagine their reaction if driverless trains were suggested on existing trains. They already hold us to ransom on the slightest whim, and always time their strikes themselves cause maximum disruption. " Would you time a strike for when nobody will notice? | |||
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"50 grand a year.....make the trains driverless and fuck the drivers off ...works in Japan.... Maybe if we had a decent level of investment in the rail infrastructure that would be possible. The level of investment in the rail system is irrelevant, while the RMT continue to resist any progress in automation. Correct. Imagine their reaction if driverless trains were suggested on existing trains. They already hold us to ransom on the slightest whim, and always time their strikes themselves cause maximum disruption. Would you time a strike for when nobody will notice?" They lose even more support when they threaten or deliver strikes around big national events like the jubilee and Olympics. They also lose public support when they strike so often, and people now also realise just how good things are for tube drivers, so feel that they are taking the piss | |||
"Why is there a fixation on driver’s pay? It’s not drivers that are going to be on strike this month. It’s practically all the other grades: guards, platform staff, ticket office, signallers, track workers etc. And this isn’t “at the drop of a hat”, it’s been brewing for months. " The “drop of a hat” comment is die to the regularity of strikes over the past 25 years, while I have lived in and around London. Some of the excuses have been ridiculously weak, and that is why they have lost public support | |||
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"They should take action like the Japanese. They still run the service without taking any fares. That soon gets attention of the paymasters and the public on their side." Agreed. And that has been suggested regularly over the years | |||
"I say that yes they should, but of course it is the commuters who will be affected the most." Whether or not commuters will be affected should have no bearing on whether the strike should be legal or not. After all, if it would not cause any disruption there would be no point striking. | |||
"Why is there a fixation on driver’s pay? It’s not drivers that are going to be on strike this month. It’s practically all the other grades: guards, platform staff, ticket office, signallers, track workers etc. And this isn’t “at the drop of a hat”, it’s been brewing for months. The “drop of a hat” comment is die to the regularity of strikes over the past 25 years, while I have lived in and around London. Some of the excuses have been ridiculously weak, and that is why they have lost public support " There is a common misconception, fuelled by the press, that the railway is always on strike. The driver’s ballot hasn’t even gone out yet. I have been a driver for seventeen years. This year is the first time I’ve been balloted in all that time and, if the result of the ballot is to take action then it would be the first time I have done so. The RMT’s upcoming dispute involves 50,000 people across 13 operating companies, none of whom are drivers, and most of whom are on a lot less than drivers pay wise. | |||
"They should take action like the Japanese. They still run the service without taking any fares. That soon gets attention of the paymasters and the public on their side." I love the idea, but I understand that, in this country, the resultant loss of revenue is considered to be a criminal act. Like saying Sainsbury’s staff should leave the doors unlocked and anyone passing can just help themselves. It lays staff open to criminal charges against which the employment laws around industrial action provide no protection. | |||
"Why is there a fixation on driver’s pay? It’s not drivers that are going to be on strike this month. It’s practically all the other grades: guards, platform staff, ticket office, signallers, track workers etc. And this isn’t “at the drop of a hat”, it’s been brewing for months. The “drop of a hat” comment is die to the regularity of strikes over the past 25 years, while I have lived in and around London. Some of the excuses have been ridiculously weak, and that is why they have lost public support There is a common misconception, fuelled by the press, that the railway is always on strike. The driver’s ballot hasn’t even gone out yet. I have been a driver for seventeen years. This year is the first time I’ve been balloted in all that time and, if the result of the ballot is to take action then it would be the first time I have done so. The RMT’s upcoming dispute involves 50,000 people across 13 operating companies, none of whom are drivers, and most of whom are on a lot less than drivers pay wise. " I mentioned tube strikes. I imagined all of their tube strikes when I lived in London, did I? I imagined bob Crowe calling multiple strikes each year? I imagined my colleagues growing to hate Bob Crowe because he kept holding the city to ransom? He did real, lasting damage. | |||
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