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Masculinity
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"I don't really have an answer But if he's not considered masculine, is he considered feminine by default? Or something else?" This is an excellent question. To us, he's a person. It doesn't matter about masculinity and to me (Mrs), he's certainly not feminine at all. We wouldn't apply such labels to ourselves but society does. Hence the musing, really!  | |||
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"I don't really have an answer But if he's not considered masculine, is he considered feminine by default? Or something else? And there we have the problem with seeing gender and its ‘associated characteristics’ as binary. " ** | |||
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"Here before the fun starts ". Bookmarking just to observe | |||
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"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man. The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven. I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits. Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ. " Who are you and what have you done to Jonny? | |||
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"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man. The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven. I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits. Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ. " I like this Jonny  | |||
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"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man. The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven. I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits. Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ. Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?"
That was my last serious post of the day. | |||
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"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man. The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven. I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits. Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ. Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?
That was my last serious post of the day."Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done? | |||
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"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man. The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven. I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits. Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ. Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?
That was my last serious post of the day.
Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?"Only two to be fair. The first one was only semi serious… and about flowers. | |||
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"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man. The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven. I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits. Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ. Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?
That was my last serious post of the day.
Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?
Only two to be fair.
The first one was only semi serious… and about flowers."You’re going soft. Your masculinity is fading. | |||
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"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man. The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven. I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits. Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ. Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?
That was my last serious post of the day.
Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?
Only two to be fair.
The first one was only semi serious… and about flowers.
You’re going soft. Your masculinity is fading."That’s what you think. I just punched a camel. | |||
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"The nation democratic institute defines masculinity as social expectations of being a man. The term 'masculinity' refers to the roles, behaviors and attributes that are considered appropriate for men in a given society. Masculinity is constructed and defined socially, historically and politically, rather than being biologically driven. I believe I’m masculine in how I understand the definition of it, my job, my life, who I am as a person, my traits. Like most things everybody’s opinions and understanding of it will differ. Who are you and what have you done to Jonny?
That was my last serious post of the day.
Last? I’ve been busy for a few hours. How many have you done?
Only two to be fair.
The first one was only semi serious… and about flowers.
You’re going soft. Your masculinity is fading.
That’s what you think.
I just punched a camel."Now it’s got the hump. I’ll see myself out. | |||
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"I think old perceptions of masculinity still prevail in society, but increasingly less so. Classic traits - Stiff upper lip, grin and bear it, “I’m alright”, not showing weakness. I gave up drinking 4 years ago, working in a male-dominated commercial environment where it was expected that you’d be drinking copious amounts of alcohol with any client meal. The grief I got from colleagues/Co-workers! I even had one guy - a hardcore gym-going, status-driven, bling-oriented twat - who thought masculinity was defined by how much you drank. He even went so far as to suggest I was a “homo” for not drinking. Gratefully there seems to be less of that nowadays. Also, changes in working habits are allowing fathers to be more “present” at home, working flexibly, in ways they weren’t before. This is helping break down traditional mother/father roles, I think, which is gnawing away at old perceptions of masculinity. I think “masculinity” is outdated and I don’t consider myself as conforming to old standards of it - but my own version of it is of a man that looks after himself physically (health focussed, not ab-focussed), can apply himself to many different skills, is emotionally intelligent, has a wide range of hobbies/interests, is well read, is calm/focussed, can adapt to situations. I doubt many traditionalists share this view! " Love this, thank you for sharing! | |||
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I don’t particularly wish to get into the cultural differences that I feel exist here because would probably be way to exhausting and triggering for a weekend but some other time I’m sure.
I also feel as though what it means to be a man is strange. I am cis. But I also feel constrained by pressures on how men should dress/ act/ be. Experimenting with gender performance is a dangerous sphere I think for men (dangers existing from other men predominantly). I do feel as though my desire to do these things doesn’t make me any less cis, I just feel as though being a man is too rigidly defined and should not be so. And I guess (I’m rambling here) being cis is even weird because I think similar to something Swing said yesterday it’s more that I don’t feel not cis. I wonder though if that’s just a consequence of growing up as a boy/ man and then reading and studying perspectives that taught me that gender is a construct and that challenge it as a binary construct. Or if I’m just sentimental holding onto this identity because society makes me feel like not being man would make you something else. But how can you be something else if you don’t even know what being a man is? Right? Idk I’m talking shit by this point. If you read this far then lol you must really value my opinion  | |||
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"Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending."
Makes me think of that ultimate showdown song. Think that’s what it’s called | |||
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"Even the solitary farmer has to go to market, where he meets other men and masculinity is clear and present. If you need more masculinity in and of a characteristic type choose a profession, sport , pastime, pursuit. You can always work on your masculinity. It's no different to playing an instrument, you have to practise. If you fail, you learn, you meet more accomplished men and learn from them. It doesn't stop." Is this really necessary? Is it not masculine to paint teeny tiny soldiers and ships, for example? | |||
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"Strong leader, confident, good moral compass, physically able. Does what’s right and what’s needed, not just what he wants. Doesn’t let emotions effect his decisions. Logical. " By that definition, Mr KC is über masculine. Interesting... | |||
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"To me masculinity or masculinities are not really real. And I reject them especially on the basis of the fact that notions of masculinity are based on ideas of gender as binary. But for the purpose of the post, I guess following on from what Jonny said, ‘masculinity’ differs. It differ based on cultures. Based on regions. I call it masculinities because there’s so many different ones. I talked in the femininity thread about race and I apologise once again all for talking about it here. But growing up and moving through the world, specifically Britain/ London as a Black boy/ Black man has altered the way people in my life have projected onto me what it means to be a man and how I should or should not perform that. Obviously I’ve rejected most of it as I’ve studied and learned but still .
I don’t particularly wish to get into the cultural differences that I feel exist here because would probably be way to exhausting and triggering for a weekend but some other time I’m sure.
I also feel as though what it means to be a man is strange. I am cis. But I also feel constrained by pressures on how men should dress/ act/ be. Experimenting with gender performance is a dangerous sphere I think for men (dangers existing from other men predominantly). I do feel as though my desire to do these things doesn’t make me any less cis, I just feel as though being a man is too rigidly defined and should not be so. And I guess (I’m rambling here) being cis is even weird because I think similar to something Swing said yesterday it’s more that I don’t feel not cis. I wonder though if that’s just a consequence of growing up as a boy/ man and then reading and studying perspectives that taught me that gender is a construct and that challenge it as a binary construct. Or if I’m just sentimental holding onto this identity because society makes me feel like not being man would make you something else. But how can you be something else if you don’t even know what being a man is? Right? Idk I’m talking shit by this point. If you read this far then lol you must really value my opinion "I’d love to discuss cultural differences in perceptions of masculinity. Also the issue of choosing our sexual identity as being different from our gender at birth. I think that the lines between being male (which to me had a different connotation than “being masculine”) and female (as being different from feminine) are blurring anyway, and quite rightly in a Society that supports equality. But that doesn’t mean we have our differences and traits/idiosyncrasies that tend to be either male or female. Fascinating conversation - good post, OP X | |||
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"Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending.
Makes me think of that ultimate showdown song. Think that’s what it’s called"I’ve just watched it for the first time. It was great until Chuck Norris got chinned. That would never happen. | |||
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"To me masculinity or masculinities are not really real. And I reject them especially on the basis of the fact that notions of masculinity are based on ideas of gender as binary. But for the purpose of the post, I guess following on from what Jonny said, ‘masculinity’ differs. It differ based on cultures. Based on regions. I call it masculinities because there’s so many different ones. I talked in the femininity thread about race and I apologise once again all for talking about it here. But growing up and moving through the world, specifically Britain/ London as a Black boy/ Black man has altered the way people in my life have projected onto me what it means to be a man and how I should or should not perform that. Obviously I’ve rejected most of it as I’ve studied and learned but still .
I don’t particularly wish to get into the cultural differences that I feel exist here because would probably be way to exhausting and triggering for a weekend but some other time I’m sure.
I also feel as though what it means to be a man is strange. I am cis. But I also feel constrained by pressures on how men should dress/ act/ be. Experimenting with gender performance is a dangerous sphere I think for men (dangers existing from other men predominantly). I do feel as though my desire to do these things doesn’t make me any less cis, I just feel as though being a man is too rigidly defined and should not be so. And I guess (I’m rambling here) being cis is even weird because I think similar to something Swing said yesterday it’s more that I don’t feel not cis. I wonder though if that’s just a consequence of growing up as a boy/ man and then reading and studying perspectives that taught me that gender is a construct and that challenge it as a binary construct. Or if I’m just sentimental holding onto this identity because society makes me feel like not being man would make you something else. But how can you be something else if you don’t even know what being a man is? Right? Idk I’m talking shit by this point. If you read this far then lol you must really value my opinion "That all makes sense. Your personal perceptions on masculinity will often change over time, based on your environment, your life experiences, the people around you and how you 'evolve' as you get older. I grew up taught that masculinity was an important and desired trait and characteristic to have. Keeping physically fit, playing contact sports, indulging in the stereotypical male behaviour at the time of drinking, smoking, fighting, casual sex as often as possible, pissing about in cars and going on lads holidays etc. So I tried my best to fit in because that's what 'men' did. They weren't interested in the arts, culture, reading or anything creative or 'alternative'. As I got older and particularly through my uni days I got to experience a different world. I moved away from sport and anything fitness related, still drank but to be social rather than just for the sake of it, still smoked but because I enjoyed it rather than to appear 'cool' or 'tough' as I'd done when in my teens. Still chased women but again because I enjoyed it rather than so I could show off to my mates and brag about conquests. The need to fit in to a stereotype had gone. A decade or so on I really couldn't have given a shit how I was perceived by others in any sense of masculinity. I'd lost all interest in comparing myself to others either physically or in terms of behaviour or attitude. I became much more tolerant and understanding of those living their lives outside of conventional 'norms' and far less tolerant of those that felt the need to confirm to traditional notions of how they should live/act, especially when they tried to force those ideas on others. And the older I've become the less I've cared about or seen as important the need to fit into any definitions at all. Be who you want to be, live how you want and never try to fit in just to conform to someone else's ideas. The sooner you manage that the happier you'll generally be. If you can go through life living however you want to, whilst managing at all times to be the least bit cuntish to others as possible, then you'll have lived a worthwhile life. A | |||
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"Even the solitary farmer has to go to market, where he meets other men and masculinity is clear and present. If you need more masculinity in and of a characteristic type choose a profession, sport , pastime, pursuit. You can always work on your masculinity. It's no different to playing an instrument, you have to practise. If you fail, you learn, you meet more accomplished men and learn from them. It doesn't stop." I used to go the mart as a female, and I now work in a male orientated career. I don't think it is masculinity that I encounter, it's just social norms that have evolved over centuries or time. I can work effectively and be part of the team with an all male group, I don't become more manly I'm just me. | |||
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"I have no idea what the answer is. I’m just me, I don’t think about what makes me, me. " You are very manly  | |||
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"I'd be happy to do away with the whole concept of masculine and feminine. Everyone should be able to be freely themselves without having to worry about how they match up to gender roles and rules. " It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think | |||
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"I think masculinity in the same way as I femininity it's all hogwash. I'm sure I never heard my great grandparents say oh so and so is masculine or feminine. But maybe it's because I'm from a farming background and we all worked physically hard and demanding jobs. That kind of thing just wasn't important. " We agree. There's so much discussion in current discourse about toxic masculinity and also of the qualities of femininity, which suggests at least some people think it's a "thing" and important to them. I wonder, are there certain cultures that prize sohcalled masculine (or feminine) traits more than others? If so, which ones? | |||
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"I'd be happy to do away with the whole concept of masculine and feminine. Everyone should be able to be freely themselves without having to worry about how they match up to gender roles and rules. It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think "That's a bit naive. It's really not as simple as just ignoring what other people think. There can be real consequences to not conforming to gender roles. | |||
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"I think masculinity in the same way as I femininity it's all hogwash. I'm sure I never heard my great grandparents say oh so and so is masculine or feminine. But maybe it's because I'm from a farming background and we all worked physically hard and demanding jobs. That kind of thing just wasn't important. We agree. There's so much discussion in current discourse about toxic masculinity and also of the qualities of femininity, which suggests at least some people think it's a "thing" and important to them. I wonder, are there certain cultures that prize sohcalled masculine (or feminine) traits more than others? If so, which ones?" My two grandads were farmers, but completely different men. One was a bare knuckle fighter in his spare time, used to drink, follow sports and was a mountain of a man. The other was a slight framed man, didn't bother with sport and was deacon of his chapel. They both did the same physical demanding job. Neither would have argued one was more masculine than the other. I think it would be a very strange concept to them both. | |||
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"It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think
That's a bit naive. It's really not as simple as just ignoring what other people think. There can be real consequences to not conforming to gender roles. "And those who are not affected by that are allowed not to worry about it if they want to. | |||
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"I'd be happy to do away with the whole concept of masculine and feminine. Everyone should be able to be freely themselves without having to worry about how they match up to gender roles and rules. It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think
That's a bit naive. It's really not as simple as just ignoring what other people think. There can be real consequences to not conforming to gender roles. "Which roles and what consequences? Genuinely curious as to your thoughts and logic..... A | |||
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"It is possible to be either without worrying about it. Not everyone cares what other people think
That's a bit naive. It's really not as simple as just ignoring what other people think. There can be real consequences to not conforming to gender roles.
And those who are not affected by that are allowed not to worry about it if they want to."I'm not sure anyone is worrying about it here. We intended to stimulate a discussion around the concept of masculinity, as we did yesterday around femininity. Both masculinity and femininity are often mentioned on here, with various apparent stereotypes and defined traits. We were curious to explore these things further, as two individuals who do not conform to "traditional" masculine or feminine stereotypes (and who don't care that we do/don't). | |||
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"Talking serious isnt a strength and im not the brightest button in the room but that word masculine seems to be caught up in so much negativity in the world these days i just wanted to say being a manly man is fucking awesome "Manly men are awesome
Sadly everything is caught up in negativity, in the UK at least.
Whinging poms really is a thing.
Toxic masculinity is terrible, as is toxic femininity.
But men, women and others being who and what they are generally isn't. | |||
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"I'm not sure anyone is worrying about it here. We intended to stimulate a discussion around the concept of masculinity, as we did yesterday around femininity. Both masculinity and femininity are often mentioned on here, with various apparent stereotypes and defined traits. We were curious to explore these things further, as two individuals who do not conform to "traditional" masculine or feminine stereotypes (and who don't care that we do/don't)." I am fully aware of that, I wasn't calling anyone names and need to be told off | |||
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"I'm not sure anyone is worrying about it here. We intended to stimulate a discussion around the concept of masculinity, as we did yesterday around femininity. Both masculinity and femininity are often mentioned on here, with various apparent stereotypes and defined traits. We were curious to explore these things further, as two individuals who do not conform to "traditional" masculine or feminine stereotypes (and who don't care that we do/don't). I am fully aware of that, I wasn't calling anyone names and need to be told off "And no telling off was implied. Just reiterating the intention behind the original post, that's all | |||
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"And no telling off was implied. Just reiterating the intention behind the original post, that's all "Which I had understood fully. But I'll be off now | |||
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Non of the above scared or defeated me.
But putting on a dress, makeup and wig. Then walking down a street to go into a bar to socialise is the most scary thing I have ever done. Try walking in heels lads 
But even though I’m quite masculine as a man, due to my need to crossdress all of the above is muted. How can you be a ‘real man’ if you enjoy wearing a dress ?
Not sure if this answers your question Op, but it’s another take on what makes a masculine man. | |||
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"Well as one of the most masculine men on the site I can give you an insight. I have boxed in the ring, joined the army, bungee jumped, rode fast motorbikes and a decent car, rock climbing, worked on a building site and bakery, run a couple of marathons and several other distance races, survived a heart attack, fathered three children and been divorced. I enjoy sport both watching and competing. So the epitome of a masculine man.
Non of the above scared or defeated me.
But putting on a dress, makeup and wig. Then walking down a street to go into a bar to socialise is the most scary thing I have ever done. Try walking in heels lads
But even though I’m quite masculine as a man, due to my need to crossdress all of the above is muted. How can you be a ‘real man’ if you enjoy wearing a dress ?
Not sure if this answers your question Op, but it’s another take on what makes a masculine man. "Thank you for your contribution. There's not one "right" answer to the original question. With the varied and interesting contributions on here, we shall learn from each other. And don't worry, I can't walk in heels either. I struggle in flats | |||
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"I think the term of masculinity is as broad as it's ever been. To me, masculinity is defined by doing what you want regardless of what fellow male peers may think and being comfortable in doing that. It's also masculine to be able to pick up a friend when they're down and being there for your family when they need you, not just financially but in person as well. I could he wrong though and although we may still have a long way to go, we've also come a long way too "Your perspective cannot be wrong, because it is your perspective. We all have different perspectives on these questions. I like your description very much | |||
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"I'm not gonna attach masculinity to any social norm or constract (not everything has to be linked to society)...for me this is simple and is more physiological in nature, the more testosterone you have the more masculine you are...and the less testosterone you have the less masculine you are, and has nothing to do with what a man should do in society, because honestly I love cooking and cleaning ( being very theraputical for me), and I am still masculine as f%$# when I do those things " Very interesting indeed. How would one know one's testosterone levels (without having a blood test, obviously)? Thank you for your thoughts | |||
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"I'm not gonna attach masculinity to any social norm or constract (not everything has to be linked to society)...for me this is simple and is more physiological in nature, the more testosterone you have the more masculine you are...and the less testosterone you have the less masculine you are, and has nothing to do with what a man should do in society, because honestly I love cooking and cleaning ( being very theraputical for me), and I am still masculine as f%$# when I do those things Very interesting indeed. How would one know one's testosterone levels (without having a blood test, obviously)? Thank you for your thoughts "Muscle density, body hair, voice...many physical traits can be linked to an elevated level of testosterone. And sure enough there is also the factor of synthetic testosterone, such as TRT or even steroids, but that's a whole different conversation. | |||
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"I'm not gonna attach masculinity to any social norm or constract (not everything has to be linked to society)...for me this is simple and is more physiological in nature, the more testosterone you have the more masculine you are...and the less testosterone you have the less masculine you are, and has nothing to do with what a man should do in society, because honestly I love cooking and cleaning ( being very theraputical for me), and I am still masculine as f%$# when I do those things Very interesting indeed. How would one know one's testosterone levels (without having a blood test, obviously)? Thank you for your thoughts
Muscle density, body hair, voice...many physical traits can be linked to an elevated level of testosterone. And sure enough there is also the factor of synthetic testosterone, such as TRT or even steroids, but that's a whole different conversation. "Men with physiologically low testosterone are usually infertile or at least struggle reproduction wise. This is because testosterone has an important role in the maturation of spermatids into spermatozoa. Considering the build of my husband, his almost total lack of body hair and naturally low muscle physique, you'd expect him to be in the low testosterone group, right? Except he's not. His T was tested when we were looking to conceive and it was perfectly within the normal range. Nowt so weird as human beings and their bodies | |||
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"I'm not gonna attach masculinity to any social norm or constract (not everything has to be linked to society)...for me this is simple and is more physiological in nature, the more testosterone you have the more masculine you are...and the less testosterone you have the less masculine you are, and has nothing to do with what a man should do in society, because honestly I love cooking and cleaning ( being very theraputical for me), and I am still masculine as f%$# when I do those things Very interesting indeed. How would one know one's testosterone levels (without having a blood test, obviously)? Thank you for your thoughts
Muscle density, body hair, voice...many physical traits can be linked to an elevated level of testosterone. And sure enough there is also the factor of synthetic testosterone, such as TRT or even steroids, but that's a whole different conversation.
Men with physiologically low testosterone are usually infertile or at least struggle reproduction wise. This is because testosterone has an important role in the maturation of spermatids into spermatozoa.
Considering the build of my husband, his almost total lack of body hair and naturally low muscle physique, you'd expect him to be in the low testosterone group, right? Except he's not. His T was tested when we were looking to conceive and it was perfectly within the normal range.
Nowt so weird as human beings and their bodies "Muscle density and body hair are just two physical traits...there are dozens | |||
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"Masculinity is whatever a man chooses it to be. Yes it's a social construct (see femininity thread yesterday) and yes it's a set of list able traits if you want it to be. But like femininity it's more that both of them. It's part of your core psychological make up. My dad left when I was 6. I was sexually abused by a priest between 10 and 12. The priest told me this is what real men do. So between these two things happening at very critical stages in my life, I had a very strange view of Masculinity. I was 6 2 by the time I was 12. I was shaving twice a week by then too. A boy in a mans bady. As a teenager I wore clothes that made me stick out. Red velvet platform shoes, fish tail shirts. A lot of black. I made myself an outsider. And of course I found other outsiders and we became family. Inside me I knew I wasn't a man. Not really. I didn't know how to fix things, I pissed sitting down, cos that's all I had seen growing up. I didn't hang around with the other kids in the area, I didn't know how to Rob a car, roll a joint, smoke a cigarette. I didn't know how to interact with men. I couldn't use a screwdriver. Or know what screws or nails did what jobs. Not really a man. Other people seen me differently. I didn't bend to peer pressure. I didn't like smoke so I didn't ever take a drag of a cigarette. I was a protector of of my people. I had a quiet way of getting people to do what I wanted to do. I would let people know this is what I wanted and they would do it. Because there was no pressure. No forcing. I was polite, intense, fierce and loved to dance. I wasn't good at it, and I looked weird but I didn't care. It made me happy. So now after therapy helped bring my memory back I can look at myself and see the man I was becoming then and feel pride and I can see how it shaped my views on Masculinity. As a 45 Yr old man my vision of Masculinity is shaped by who I am and what happened to me. And there is nothing that will force me to change my mind on it. Growing up consent was a huge part of my life. The priest taught me that. My dad taught me about violence and intimidation, so that was to be avoided, my mum taught me about respect and hard work and being strong even when you just want to curl up and die. My friends taught me about music, life, being part of something bigger and not to be afraid of who you are. They taught me I'm a leader. In my middle years I found bdsm and a lot of things really fell into place. I had labels for behaviours and extra insight into who I was and why I did what I liked to do. It also highlighted other aspects of Masculinity I wasn't aware of. Subby men are a tough group. Anyway. That's what Masculinity means to me. " Mr Arrows, thank you so much for opening your heart and explaining what masculinity means for you. We are very sorry to read about your formative experiences and hope you have been able to heal over time somewhat | |||
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"Mr KC is masculine. Throughout history masculinity has been described as men being heroes to their loved ones. It wasn't until the early 1900's that men started physically fighting to "prove" their masculinity to each other. After that change in society, beards and other testerone related physicalities and related behaviour became the norm, these "opinions" also spawned the rise of the "Butch" lesbian and the "Tomboy". Greek mythologies masculine hero is Mars for some insight. When I think of masculinity I am frequently drawn to the historical saying "every girl wants to find a man that treats her as well as her daddy does" My masculinity hero is my Grandad "I like this very much indeed! By these descriptors, I'd have to say that both Mr KC and me were both masculine, just I don't look male. Mr KC has been stepdad to my son (our son) since he was 17.5 years old. He never once quibbled about the fact I came as a pair with this toddler in tow. Never quibbled that our finances were often precarious because of having an extra human to raise, that we couldn't do our own thing and be carefree teenagers/early 20s. And, if you look at how he's responded to my acquisition of disability, he's another level of caring, supportive, hard working and just generally fucking amazing | |||
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"It's sad though to see sometimes masculinity associated with macho aggressive behaviour. You only need to look at the look and faces of some blokes walking about with the look of someone ready to punch you. As another post mentioned masculinity means different things to different people but always better to be a 'gentleman' than a thug. "I think that's a whole different thread about what is a "gentleman" because I know that the stereotype of a "gentleman" does have some negative connotations for some people (mainly the idea that women need a "knight in shining armour" to open doors and put their coats over puddles etc). Thank you very much for your contribution! | |||
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"Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending.
Makes me think of that ultimate showdown song. Think that’s what it’s called"Think I’m the only person who understood this reference without googling | |||
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"I’m just moisturising and then I’ll be back to explain how my masculinity is fairing up under the pressure of society in the modern era…" How's the beauty regime going? | |||
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"Another really interesting thread, KC. I read the one on femininity with interest, though feel more qualified to comment on this one! As others have said, there's definitely a spectrum, which is (in my mind rightfully) growing all the time. Perhaps more accurately, the spectrum itself is not growing, but society's expectations are (there have always been exceptions to societal "norms", but society's just more accepting/less suspicious of those differences now). I can only talk of my masculinity. I've always loved sport, but couldn't change a car tyre for a million pounds. My hobbies are 'masculine' but normally more comfortable in the company of women (an upbringing thing). But these kind of things are largely irrelevant to me. The masculinity I aspire to is confident, but humble; strong, but not in a physical sense; loyal and supportive, there for family and friends; calm and resilient; and hard-working/dedicated. This is all true for the most important man in my life, my Grandfather, but also my Mum who would could never be described as "masculine", so perhaps they're more human qualities or I'm just not defining it properly!" And there are some very interesting replies, which is fantastic. Thank you for yours. Your final sentence about maybe what you hold as masculine qualities are in fact human qualities - we came to much the same conclusion on the topic of "femininity". It does beg the question as to whether we need to apply such labels in the equality era of the 21st century? | |||
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" It does beg the question as to whether we need to apply such labels in the equality era of the 21st century?" All we need to have is diversity IMO. You can have and show traits of whatever you want to, and values and life experiences will add to your beliefs of yourself and others but essentially we are what we choose to be | |||
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"Chuck Norris is masculine. Everyone else is just pretending.
Makes me think of that ultimate showdown song. Think that’s what it’s called
Think I’m the only person who understood this reference without googling"I think you’re the only person on here that gets any of the references I make on here | |||
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Of course I’ll be setting an example. | |||
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"Interesting post .Me and my husband have had this discussion a few times as my husband has commented a few times that he would love to look more manly (whatever that looks like ).But I don’t think being masculine is a physical thing tho . He always makes me feel safe and I know that no matter what he will always protect me in every way and just because physically he’s small it don’t change the way I feel ." Thank you for this | |||
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"It's sad though to see sometimes masculinity associated with macho aggressive behaviour. You only need to look at the look and faces of some blokes walking about with the look of someone ready to punch you. As another post mentioned masculinity means different things to different people but always better to be a 'gentleman' than a thug.
I think that's a whole different thread about what is a "gentleman" because I know that the stereotype of a "gentleman" does have some negative connotations for some people (mainly the idea that women need a "knight in shining armour" to open doors and put their coats over puddles etc).
Thank you very much for your contribution!"I certainly appreciate what you are saying and I of course did not mean it like that even though it might have sounded so. I am just not keen on the super macho attitude displayed around sometimes masquerading as masculinity. | |||
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"Boys, we’re doing tight shorts, t shirts tucked in and boots/sandals/ white trainers this summer. Make sure the shorts are extra short and extra tight please.
Of course I’ll be setting an example. "Got it. But of course real men don't wear t-shirts; they just strut around topless. | |||
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"It's sad though to see sometimes masculinity associated with macho aggressive behaviour. You only need to look at the look and faces of some blokes walking about with the look of someone ready to punch you. As another post mentioned masculinity means different things to different people but always better to be a 'gentleman' than a thug.
I think that's a whole different thread about what is a "gentleman" because I know that the stereotype of a "gentleman" does have some negative connotations for some people (mainly the idea that women need a "knight in shining armour" to open doors and put their coats over puddles etc).
Thank you very much for your contribution!
I certainly appreciate what you are saying and I of course did not mean it like that even though it might have sounded so. I am just not keen on the super macho attitude displayed around sometimes masquerading as masculinity."Totally agree on the super macho-ness. I see it in the gym quite often and frankly, it's quite comical to watch. It certainly doesn't make me want to drop my knickers and jump on them
Perhaps "toxic masculinity" should be another separate thread, because perhaps the super macho comes under the umbrella of "toxic"?
Thank you again for your thoughts | |||
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"My hairy chest? "Can a man without chest/body hair be masculine? | |||
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"It's sad though to see sometimes masculinity associated with macho aggressive behaviour. You only need to look at the look and faces of some blokes walking about with the look of someone ready to punch you. As another post mentioned masculinity means different things to different people but always better to be a 'gentleman' than a thug.
I think that's a whole different thread about what is a "gentleman" because I know that the stereotype of a "gentleman" does have some negative connotations for some people (mainly the idea that women need a "knight in shining armour" to open doors and put their coats over puddles etc).
Thank you very much for your contribution!
I certainly appreciate what you are saying and I of course did not mean it like that even though it might have sounded so. I am just not keen on the super macho attitude displayed around sometimes masquerading as masculinity.
Totally agree on the super macho-ness. I see it in the gym quite often and frankly, it's quite comical to watch. It certainly doesn't make me want to drop my knickers and jump on them
Perhaps "toxic masculinity" should be another separate thread, because perhaps the super macho comes under the umbrella of "toxic"?
Thank you again for your thoughts " and you made me laugh too. | |||
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"Boys, we’re doing tight shorts, t shirts tucked in and boots/sandals/ white trainers this summer. Make sure the shorts are extra short and extra tight please.
Of course I’ll be setting an example.
Got it. But of course real men don't wear t-shirts; they just strut around topless."Time to redefine what a real man is | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. " Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? | |||
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"Masculinity is whatever a man chooses it to be. Yes it's a social construct (see femininity thread yesterday) and yes it's a set of list able traits if you want it to be. But like femininity it's more that both of them. It's part of your core psychological make up. My dad left when I was 6. I was sexually abused by a priest between 10 and 12. The priest told me this is what real men do. So between these two things happening at very critical stages in my life, I had a very strange view of Masculinity. I was 6 2 by the time I was 12. I was shaving twice a week by then too. A boy in a mans bady. As a teenager I wore clothes that made me stick out. Red velvet platform shoes, fish tail shirts. A lot of black. I made myself an outsider. And of course I found other outsiders and we became family. Inside me I knew I wasn't a man. Not really. I didn't know how to fix things, I pissed sitting down, cos that's all I had seen growing up. I didn't hang around with the other kids in the area, I didn't know how to Rob a car, roll a joint, smoke a cigarette. I didn't know how to interact with men. I couldn't use a screwdriver. Or know what screws or nails did what jobs. Not really a man. Other people seen me differently. I didn't bend to peer pressure. I didn't like smoke so I didn't ever take a drag of a cigarette. I was a protector of of my people. I had a quiet way of getting people to do what I wanted to do. I would let people know this is what I wanted and they would do it. Because there was no pressure. No forcing. I was polite, intense, fierce and loved to dance. I wasn't good at it, and I looked weird but I didn't care. It made me happy. So now after therapy helped bring my memory back I can look at myself and see the man I was becoming then and feel pride and I can see how it shaped my views on Masculinity. As a 45 Yr old man my vision of Masculinity is shaped by who I am and what happened to me. And there is nothing that will force me to change my mind on it. Growing up consent was a huge part of my life. The priest taught me that. My dad taught me about violence and intimidation, so that was to be avoided, my mum taught me about respect and hard work and being strong even when you just want to curl up and die. My friends taught me about music, life, being part of something bigger and not to be afraid of who you are. They taught me I'm a leader. In my middle years I found bdsm and a lot of things really fell into place. I had labels for behaviours and extra insight into who I was and why I did what I liked to do. It also highlighted other aspects of Masculinity I wasn't aware of. Subby men are a tough group. Anyway. That's what Masculinity means to me. Mr Arrows, thank you so much for opening your heart and explaining what masculinity means for you. We are very sorry to read about your formative experiences and hope you have been able to heal over time somewhat "I had traumatic amnesia so for 20 years I had no memories of what happened. Well I had no surface memories. They were always there I just suppressed them. The sad side effects are that all memories were suppressed and emotions too. You can't allow yourself to feel things. I kept my rage buried deep. And when I did snap I would black out. (Usually protecting friends or family) I had few memories of my childhood but I knew a man didn't take things, he asked, a man didn't abandon his responsibilities, he prioritised them, a man didn't intimidate others, he cared and protected. Therapy, anger management, my wife and my friends all helped me while I was unpacking the dramatic shit that was my early life. Then my dad died so I put down the anger I was carrying for him, and I brought the church to court to get a degree of justice from them. I hired a very expensive solicitor and made them pay my costs. It was therapeutic. Now I'm the best version of myself. I think I am at least | |||
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"My hairy chest?
Can a man without chest/body hair be masculine?"Of course. (Unless you *need* to define your own Masculinity as requiring hair on your body, then obviously no) I know lots of hairy men who are weak and insecure. I also know lots of hairless men who are weak and insecure. To me, in my humble opinion Masculinity is more to do with how you do things and treat people than how much hair you have on your chin or chest. | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? " He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true | |||
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"I seem to have the “masculinity” conversation with so many male students in school. It’s definitely still a societal issue where ideals of toxic masculinity are passed down through the generations. I think it’s much more pronounced in working class communities, and even more so in BAME working class communities. Young men think that showing any sign of weakness is an affront to their masculinity, and in some ways it is, in that, showing signs of weakness means that they’re going to get exploited on “the streets”, so they have to constantly wear their masks of masculinity for survival. They wear it so much that it becomes normalised, and they become a caricature of themselves." It's interesting that many of our male students (post 16, international) actually seem to reassess their own view of themselves. They spend an academic year in a mixed gender, mixed nationality/language/culture college and they see influences from everywhere. Aside a small number who remain entrenched only with people from their own background, most develop a new-found inquisitiveness for things they would previously have dismissed. For example, one of the classes I teach has students from about 8 or 9 different countries. One student is transgender. I anticipated some challenges in getting the group integrated, especially from the Middle Eastern male students. I've been pleasantly surprised to see that everyone has just been super accepting and they all get on famously. Yes, students ask each other questions but from the perspective of wanting to learn and to understand. Not one male student has tried to impose their version of masculinity on the student whose passport says "male" but who is transitioning and who presents as female. I think they have a lot of admiration for her bravery, actually. I fucking love my job! | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true" What is making men not men anymore? | |||
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"Talking about Masculinity is not something that some men can do comfortably. They see the stereotype and they know they fall short of whatever standard that is for themselves Or they meet this imaginary standard and realise that they have become the serotype. Masculine men don't need to justify their Masculinity (See what I did there ... that last one is one of the things I have as a pillar of Masculinity and I do it well so I emphasise it )" | |||
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"Toxic masculinity is just as dangerous to men as beauty standards are to women, yet, ironically, toxic masculinity states that talking about it and admitting that it negatively affects us emasculates us. So it never gets addressed." One way I addressed my emasculinity was to identify it and do things to fill the void. My wife is great at DIY. So I always left it to her. But I realised this was a source of suppressed anger for me. (Not at her, at me) so I started doing shit around the house with her. It helped | |||
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"I seem to have the “masculinity” conversation with so many male students in school. It’s definitely still a societal issue where ideals of toxic masculinity are passed down through the generations. I think it’s much more pronounced in working class communities, and even more so in BAME working class communities. Young men think that showing any sign of weakness is an affront to their masculinity, and in some ways it is, in that, showing signs of weakness means that they’re going to get exploited on “the streets”, so they have to constantly wear their masks of masculinity for survival. They wear it so much that it becomes normalised, and they become a caricature of themselves. It's interesting that many of our male students (post 16, international) actually seem to reassess their own view of themselves. They spend an academic year in a mixed gender, mixed nationality/language/culture college and they see influences from everywhere. Aside a small number who remain entrenched only with people from their own background, most develop a new-found inquisitiveness for things they would previously have dismissed. For example, one of the classes I teach has students from about 8 or 9 different countries. One student is transgender. I anticipated some challenges in getting the group integrated, especially from the Middle Eastern male students. I've been pleasantly surprised to see that everyone has just been super accepting and they all get on famously. Yes, students ask each other questions but from the perspective of wanting to learn and to understand. Not one male student has tried to impose their version of masculinity on the student whose passport says "male" but who is transitioning and who presents as female. I think they have a lot of admiration for her bravery, actually. I fucking love my job!" That’s a great story!!! I mean, that just reinforces why we get into teaching - watching young minds develop into well adjusted adults is a reward that can’t be easily explained. Well done for creating an accepting and positive environment for all. | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true What is making men not men anymore? " There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true What is making men not men anymore? There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard " My understanding (with a broad brush) is that the "crisis of masculinity" is related to the rise of feminism and equality of rights and opportunities for women in society. I have to say that if a man feels less of a man because the heating engineer who comes to install his boiler is female, or because his boss on a construction site is female, then that's his own warped view of masculinity. Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted. | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true What is making men not men anymore? There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard My understanding (with a broad brush) is that the "crisis of masculinity" is related to the rise of feminism and equality of rights and opportunities for women in society. I have to say that if a man feels less of a man because the heating engineer who comes to install his boiler is female, or because his boss on a construction site is female, then that's his own warped view of masculinity. Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted. " That’s actually totally wrong. No one with with a shred of common sense doesn’t want equality of opportunity in the workplace, what you should want is the most competent person available in the role regardless of gender or race. what men and women generally choose to do for work differs but that is their preference. I work in construction which is a male dominant industry. My wife is a midwife which is predominantly female. | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true What is making men not men anymore? There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard My understanding (with a broad brush) is that the "crisis of masculinity" is related to the rise of feminism and equality of rights and opportunities for women in society. I have to say that if a man feels less of a man because the heating engineer who comes to install his boiler is female, or because his boss on a construction site is female, then that's his own warped view of masculinity. Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted. That’s actually totally wrong. No one with with a shred of common sense doesn’t want equality of opportunity in the workplace, what you should want is the most competent person available in the role regardless of gender or race. what men and women generally choose to do for work differs but that is their preference. I work in construction which is a male dominant industry. My wife is a midwife which is predominantly female. " We totally agree that the best and most competent person for a job should be doing it. But that isn't the view of everyone. There's definitely a school of thought that the fact hitherto all-male "spaces" have been opened to women, such as previously male dominated workplaces, is to blame for the "crisis of masculinity", among other things. Stealing a quote: British sociologist John MacInnes wrote that "masculinity has always been in one crisis or another", suggesting that the crises arise from the "fundamental incompatibility between the core principle of modernity that all human beings are essentially equal (regardless of their sex) and the core tenet of patriarchy that men are naturally superior to women and thus destined to rule over them". | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true What is making men not men anymore? There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard My understanding (with a broad brush) is that the "crisis of masculinity" is related to the rise of feminism and equality of rights and opportunities for women in society. I have to say that if a man feels less of a man because the heating engineer who comes to install his boiler is female, or because his boss on a construction site is female, then that's his own warped view of masculinity. Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted. That’s actually totally wrong. No one with with a shred of common sense doesn’t want equality of opportunity in the workplace, what you should want is the most competent person available in the role regardless of gender or race. what men and women generally choose to do for work differs but that is their preference. I work in construction which is a male dominant industry. My wife is a midwife which is predominantly female. " But you must want equality of opportunity in a workplace. For the exact reason you stated. You want the best person for the job, or the most competent. Not the most competent of one sex. What if the best mid wife is a dude. He's exceptionally good at all the things he needs to be? Shouldn't he have a chance ? Should be stopped because he lacks ovaries. | |||
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"There are masculine and feminine traits by definition, most men will have masculine traits but can have feminine traits and vice versa Jordan Peterson has some good talks on this subject. The problem with masculinity is that to be masculine is often derided as toxic so you find that most young men go either way and become either too feminine or too masculine. Hmmmmm. Can you tell us more about Jordan Petersen and his views on masculinity? Is he not a subscriber to the "crisis of masculinity" theory, which has some very troubling tropes associated with it? He does believe that there is an issue with the “crisis of masculinity” and although I don’t agree with everything he says he makes some extremely valid points. To go through all his views I’d need to right a book ( ha has at least 3 I know of) bur he feels that men aren’t being men anymore and to a point this is true What is making men not men anymore? There are a number of factors. It’s tough to explain in a short forum post without being blunt and upsetting someone. I’d recommend watching his interview with Russell Howard My understanding (with a broad brush) is that the "crisis of masculinity" is related to the rise of feminism and equality of rights and opportunities for women in society. I have to say that if a man feels less of a man because the heating engineer who comes to install his boiler is female, or because his boss on a construction site is female, then that's his own warped view of masculinity. Men are not masculine because they have a level of power over women, which is essentially what has historically and traditionally been accepted. That’s actually totally wrong. No one with with a shred of common sense doesn’t want equality of opportunity in the workplace, what you should want is the most competent person available in the role regardless of gender or race. what men and women generally choose to do for work differs but that is their preference. I work in construction which is a male dominant industry. My wife is a midwife which is predominantly female. But you must want equality of opportunity in a workplace. For the exact reason you stated. You want the best person for the job, or the most competent. Not the most competent of one sex. What if the best mid wife is a dude. He's exceptionally good at all the things he needs to be? Shouldn't he have a chance ? Should be stopped because he lacks ovaries. " I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply | |||
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" I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply " Is working in construction all about strength? Are there any underlying reasons why women might be put off training in construction relate trades? Or in fact men training in traditionally female dominated professions? Nearly every gynaecologist I've seen (and I've seen a LOT) have been male. But I only encountered one male midwife during my two pregnancies. The male midwife was by far and away the most personable and reassuring, by the way. I'd happily have had him deliver my daughter. | |||
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"I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply " I think we are talking about different things here. No one would suggest picking a bad chippie to work for a company just because they are a woman. That's stupid. But if the person who can do the job best is a woman then it's stupid to pick a man just because he's a man. | |||
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"I seem to have the “masculinity” conversation with so many male students in school. It’s definitely still a societal issue where ideals of toxic masculinity are passed down through the generations. I think it’s much more pronounced in working class communities, and even more so in BAME working class communities. Young men think that showing any sign of weakness is an affront to their masculinity, and in some ways it is, in that, showing signs of weakness means that they’re going to get exploited on “the streets”, so they have to constantly wear their masks of masculinity for survival. They wear it so much that it becomes normalised, and they become a caricature of themselves." Masculinities will differ between ‘BAME’ communities. They even differ between Black West Indian communities and Black African communities in Britain. And in terms of the ‘roads’ I agree with the pressures. But the ironic thing is that (speaking as a Black man) Black boys and men are not allowed or afforded space to be anything anyway. You’re constantly a threat. You’re not allowed to be angry or you’re aggressive. You’re not allowed to wear comfy clothes because then you’re a criminal. And I think there’s a difference between performing masculinity to survive and performing masculinity how you wish to. I have performed masculinity in some ways to survive/ get by because the space in society hasn’t allowed me to be different. But then been completely different when allowed the space. - how I am now. Also let’s factor in the way that Black men are hupersexualised historically. How cultures are hyper sexualised too. Etc. I just feel like it’s a minefield for young Black boys and it makes me want to cry for them. But it is what it is. | |||
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" I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply Is working in construction all about strength? Are there any underlying reasons why women might be put off training in construction relate trades? Or in fact men training in traditionally female dominated professions? Nearly every gynaecologist I've seen (and I've seen a LOT) have been male. But I only encountered one male midwife during my two pregnancies. The male midwife was by far and away the most personable and reassuring, by the way. I'd happily have had him deliver my daughter." There is a lot of skill involved but also a lot of strength required. Some materials can be extremely heavy and take considerable strength to lift. As I said I believe that the most competent person willing to do the job should get the job. I’m super happy that you had a good experience with a male midwife but men don’t have as much interest in doing the job. | |||
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"I seem to have the “masculinity” conversation with so many male students in school. It’s definitely still a societal issue where ideals of toxic masculinity are passed down through the generations. I think it’s much more pronounced in working class communities, and even more so in BAME working class communities. Young men think that showing any sign of weakness is an affront to their masculinity, and in some ways it is, in that, showing signs of weakness means that they’re going to get exploited on “the streets”, so they have to constantly wear their masks of masculinity for survival. They wear it so much that it becomes normalised, and they become a caricature of themselves. Masculinities will differ between ‘BAME’ communities. They even differ between Black West Indian communities and Black African communities in Britain. And in terms of the ‘roads’ I agree with the pressures. But the ironic thing is that (speaking as a Black man) Black boys and men are not allowed or afforded space to be anything anyway. You’re constantly a threat. You’re not allowed to be angry or you’re aggressive. You’re not allowed to wear comfy clothes because then you’re a criminal. And I think there’s a difference between performing masculinity to survive and performing masculinity how you wish to. I have performed masculinity in some ways to survive/ get by because the space in society hasn’t allowed me to be different. But then been completely different when allowed the space. - how I am now. Also let’s factor in the way that Black men are hupersexualised historically. How cultures are hyper sexualised too. Etc. I just feel like it’s a minefield for young Black boys and it makes me want to cry for them. But it is what it is. " | |||
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"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine? Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify? (Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)" Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports | |||
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"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine? Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify? (Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!)-- Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports " --That would make no difference even when they do! I didn't meant to suggest they did compete in sports, that wasn't part of my point at all. My point is, would you call a woman 'masculine' just for being competitive (which they obviously are) or indeed actually sporty (which they also are!).-- | |||
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"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine? Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify? (Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!) Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports " But that's not universal. Equestrian events, motor sports and various others are mixed. I play mixed gender wheelchair sports. | |||
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" I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply Is working in construction all about strength? Are there any underlying reasons why women might be put off training in construction relate trades? Or in fact men training in traditionally female dominated professions? Nearly every gynaecologist I've seen (and I've seen a LOT) have been male. But I only encountered one male midwife during my two pregnancies. The male midwife was by far and away the most personable and reassuring, by the way. I'd happily have had him deliver my daughter. There is a lot of skill involved but also a lot of strength required. Some materials can be extremely heavy and take considerable strength to lift. As I said I believe that the most competent person willing to do the job should get the job. I’m super happy that you had a good experience with a male midwife but men don’t have as much interest in doing the job. " Are all construction jobs dependent on heavy lifting? Or just some of them? Is there equipment that could be employed to remove the need for lifting and thus not only allow those who are not as physically strong to work but also protect the backs of those who would otherwise be putting their intervertebral discs under unnecessary strain? When I was able bodied, I worked in a brewery. We did all the heavy lifting with hoists and mechanical lifting equipment. | |||
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" I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply Is working in construction all about strength? Are there any underlying reasons why women might be put off training in construction relate trades? Or in fact men training in traditionally female dominated professions? Nearly every gynaecologist I've seen (and I've seen a LOT) have been male. But I only encountered one male midwife during my two pregnancies. The male midwife was by far and away the most personable and reassuring, by the way. I'd happily have had him deliver my daughter. There is a lot of skill involved but also a lot of strength required. Some materials can be extremely heavy and take considerable strength to lift. As I said I believe that the most competent person willing to do the job should get the job. I’m super happy that you had a good experience with a male midwife but men don’t have as much interest in doing the job. Are all construction jobs dependent on heavy lifting? Or just some of them? Is there equipment that could be employed to remove the need for lifting and thus not only allow those who are not as physically strong to work but also protect the backs of those who would otherwise be putting their intervertebral discs under unnecessary strain? When I was able bodied, I worked in a brewery. We did all the heavy lifting with hoists and mechanical lifting equipment. " I’m some aspects like painting the lifting isn’t as important(still don’t get applications for them). Carpenters definitely need a base level strength. I’m not saying women can’t do it I’m saying why they could have challenges. | |||
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" I wouldn’t care who did a job as long as they are the best for that job but you can’t force people to pick occupations that don’t interest them. Construction is made dominated due to the fact men are generally stronger, yes some women are stronger then some men but on average men are stronger. As an employer I would love to have more women in the company but they just don’t apply Is working in construction all about strength? Are there any underlying reasons why women might be put off training in construction relate trades? Or in fact men training in traditionally female dominated professions? Nearly every gynaecologist I've seen (and I've seen a LOT) have been male. But I only encountered one male midwife during my two pregnancies. The male midwife was by far and away the most personable and reassuring, by the way. I'd happily have had him deliver my daughter. There is a lot of skill involved but also a lot of strength required. Some materials can be extremely heavy and take considerable strength to lift. As I said I believe that the most competent person willing to do the job should get the job. I’m super happy that you had a good experience with a male midwife but men don’t have as much interest in doing the job. Are all construction jobs dependent on heavy lifting? Or just some of them? Is there equipment that could be employed to remove the need for lifting and thus not only allow those who are not as physically strong to work but also protect the backs of those who would otherwise be putting their intervertebral discs under unnecessary strain? When I was able bodied, I worked in a brewery. We did all the heavy lifting with hoists and mechanical lifting equipment. I’m some aspects like painting the lifting isn’t as important(still don’t get applications for them). Carpenters definitely need a base level strength. I’m not saying women can’t do it I’m saying why they could have challenges." And I'm just wondering whether things could be adapted a bit? Is it necessary/healthy to lift very heavy things by hand? My job was adapted around my acquired disability - could construction not similarly adapt around people who cannot lift very heavy weights? Just musing... Aside the physical aspects, could you think of reasons why women continue to be under represented in areas like motor mechanics, plumbing, electrical work? When I worked in an FE college engineering department, we had quite a few female apprentice mechanics. I wonder if they've stuck with it? I tell you what, they used to get some terrible stick from the male apprentices. I used to get terrible stick from the male apprentices also | |||
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"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine? Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify? (Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!) Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports But that's not universal. Equestrian events, motor sports and various others are mixed. I play mixed gender wheelchair sports." --You have completely missed my point-- | |||
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"I watch Strictly and I'm learning to dance. I'm emotional and cry. Society suggests these are not masculine traits. I have a shaved head and tattoos and teach people how to kill other people. I'll fight for what is right & what I believe in and will defend those I love with my last breath. Society suggests these are masculine traits. I'm just a bloke. Simple as that. Winston" Exactly Winston. | |||
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"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine? Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify? (Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!) Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports But that's not universal. Equestrian events, motor sports and various others are mixed. I play mixed gender wheelchair sports. --You have completely missed my point--" I was replying to the person who said men and women don't play sports together, I wanted to see what he said about mixed gender sports... | |||
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"Mr here. I don't really watch sports that much though I enjoy watching big boxing and snooker events, I work in construction and also a part time farmer. Am I masculine? The wife loves watching rugby and gaa, loves gadgets and prefers to wear leggings and hoodies 99% of the time. Is she feminine?" We had the femininity discussion yesterday and we didn't really decide very much! We did decide that the social construct of "feminine" was mainly based in 19th century white, middle/upper class ideals of femininity and we also decided that femininity was subjective and more about how the person feels than what they look like or how they behave. So, we bat the question back - does Mr feel masculine? Does Mrs feel feminine? | |||
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"Well sports are competitive I suppose, but so are women (with men and with each other). Are woman masculine? Indeed, are women football and rugby players masculine? Or maybe the distinction in question is really *alpha*, and we needn't gender-specify? (Ps I said needn't not shouldn't so please don't call me a censorious woke!) Men and women don’t compete against each other in most sports But that's not universal. Equestrian events, motor sports and various others are mixed. I play mixed gender wheelchair sports. --You have completely missed my point-- I was replying to the person who said men and women don't play sports together, I wanted to see what he said about mixed gender sports..." --oh sorry, I find these hard to follow. Darts is mixed too now, and to really good effect when I saw it last. But as I said to the guy in another post, that wasn't part of my point. -- | |||
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"Masculinity is whatever a man chooses it to be. Yes it's a social construct (see femininity thread yesterday) and yes it's a set of list able traits if you want it to be. But like femininity it's more that both of them. It's part of your core psychological make up. My dad left when I was 6. I was sexually abused by a priest between 10 and 12. The priest told me this is what real men do. So between these two things happening at very critical stages in my life, I had a very strange view of Masculinity. I was 6 2 by the time I was 12. I was shaving twice a week by then too. A boy in a mans bady. As a teenager I wore clothes that made me stick out. Red velvet platform shoes, fish tail shirts. A lot of black. I made myself an outsider. And of course I found other outsiders and we became family. Inside me I knew I wasn't a man. Not really. I didn't know how to fix things, I pissed sitting down, cos that's all I had seen growing up. I didn't hang around with the other kids in the area, I didn't know how to Rob a car, roll a joint, smoke a cigarette. I didn't know how to interact with men. I couldn't use a screwdriver. Or know what screws or nails did what jobs. Not really a man. Other people seen me differently. I didn't bend to peer pressure. I didn't like smoke so I didn't ever take a drag of a cigarette. I was a protector of of my people. I had a quiet way of getting people to do what I wanted to do. I would let people know this is what I wanted and they would do it. Because there was no pressure. No forcing. I was polite, intense, fierce and loved to dance. I wasn't good at it, and I looked weird but I didn't care. It made me happy. So now after therapy helped bring my memory back I can look at myself and see the man I was becoming then and feel pride and I can see how it shaped my views on Masculinity. As a 45 Yr old man my vision of Masculinity is shaped by who I am and what happened to me. And there is nothing that will force me to change my mind on it. Growing up consent was a huge part of my life. The priest taught me that. My dad taught me about violence and intimidation, so that was to be avoided, my mum taught me about respect and hard work and being strong even when you just want to curl up and die. My friends taught me about music, life, being part of something bigger and not to be afraid of who you are. They taught me I'm a leader. In my middle years I found bdsm and a lot of things really fell into place. I had labels for behaviours and extra insight into who I was and why I did what I liked to do. It also highlighted other aspects of Masculinity I wasn't aware of. Subby men are a tough group. Anyway. That's what Masculinity means to me. Mr Arrows, thank you so much for opening your heart and explaining what masculinity means for you. We are very sorry to read about your formative experiences and hope you have been able to heal over time somewhat
I had traumatic amnesia so for 20 years I had no memories of what happened. Well I had no surface memories. They were always there I just suppressed them. The sad side effects are that all memories were suppressed and emotions too. You can't allow yourself to feel things. I kept my rage buried deep. And when I did snap I would black out. (Usually protecting friends or family)
I had few memories of my childhood but I knew a man didn't take things, he asked, a man didn't abandon his responsibilities, he prioritised them, a man didn't intimidate others, he cared and protected.
Therapy, anger management, my wife and my friends all helped me while I was unpacking the dramatic shit that was my early life. Then my dad died so I put down the anger I was carrying for him, and I brought the church to court to get a degree of justice from them. I hired a very expensive solicitor and made them pay my costs. It was therapeutic.
Now I'm the best version of myself. I think I am at least" | |||
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"We had similar conversation the other day. Those that don't know me I surpose I'm quiet masculine. But cherry said I'm also in touch with my feminine side and not afraid to show emotions. Fiercely protective of those important to me, friends and family...I'm just me." Would you guys say that showing emotions is a feminine trait? Does that apply to all emotions? Thank you for your contribution! | |||
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" I had to sit on my response and really ponder. Even looked up definitions and Wikipedia. As a consequence I feel rather like a dinosaur. I'd agree with opinions expressed above regarding social constructs based upon cultural design. I really do think masculinity is being redefined like never before, but worry about how many men feel slightly out of place and not quite prepared for it. Regardless of some perspectives, the younger generations are introducing greater awareness of diversity and tolerance and kindness. Will that change masculinity? We continue to progress I think...were all work in progress and the world, despite appearing mad is far better than it used to be? So who cares what it's meant to look like? Just do you if you're trying your best." Thank you so much for taking the time to ponder, we really appreciate your perspective. What you have said would seem to be very valid and insightful. We definitely subscribe to those last two sentences as well | |||
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"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all. We have to acknowledge that males and females behave very differently on the spectrum. Both are far more prone to different behaviours. Women tend to be more caring and nurturing and men more reactive and combative. So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours. Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things." Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one? | |||
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"I’m a man. I do masculine shit. I care not what other people think. Everything has changed so much over the years that it’s all taken on different meanings. " Thanks for your contribution | |||
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"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all. We have to acknowledge that males and females behave very differently on the spectrum. Both are far more prone to different behaviours. Women tend to be more caring and nurturing and men more reactive and combative. So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours. Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things. Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one? " Probably less different than you'd think really. Men still generally do the dangerous jobs. Masculinity would dictate that, if my house were getting burgled I would be the one to get in harms way first. If we were being mugged I would still be expected by society and myself, to take the lead in what happens and be the human shield. I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that. | |||
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"What is it? Does it exist? Should the concept exist? This musing is inspired by the "Femininity" thread we posted yesterday and which generated some very interesting and insightful conversation. We thought, "why not muse on masculinity too?" Mr KC doesn't consider himself to be particularly masculine. He doesn't like football or rugby or most sports. He's a miniature hobbyist. He's not muscular in build but he's very tall. He's quite a quiet, introspective person and doesn't like conflict, although if threatened, he will defend himself and people he holds dear. He's also incredibly intelligent, kind, generous and THE most supportive husband and father. But he's still not considered "masculine" by societal standards. I (Mrs KC) also happen to think he's handsome as hell and in a bedroom situation, he's a dominant character, quite different to how he comes across in day to day life. So, what IS masculinity? What does it mean in the 21st century? Why are some men not seen as masculine? The very word is defined as "having qualities traditionally considered to be suitable for a man," so should we even be striving for masculinity? Is it reinforcing gender stereotypes? Discuss!" The question shouldn't be does it exist but should it exist . Who does it exist for? How many men here have masculine as a description of themselves on their profile ? | |||
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"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all. We have to acknowledge that males and females behave very differently on the spectrum. Both are far more prone to different behaviours. Women tend to be more caring and nurturing and men more reactive and combative. So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours. Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things. Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one? Probably less different than you'd think really. Men still generally do the dangerous jobs. Masculinity would dictate that, if my house were getting burgled I would be the one to get in harms way first. If we were being mugged I would still be expected by society and myself, to take the lead in what happens and be the human shield. I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that." The 2021 Dangerous Occupations Report says that the top 3 areas of work with the greatest risk of fatalities are: 1) Building Construction (not including scaffolding, which is listed separately and has a very, very low number of the fatalities, less than education for example) 2) Farming 3) Healthcare and nursing Healthcare and nursing had a fairly similar proportion of the fatalities to farming (13.27% for healthcare vs 15.60% for farming). Interesting data.... As for putting oneself in harm's way, I understand why men with families might feel that they should take on the burden of defending their families. But that said, plenty of women have to do it. Single parent families, situations where women are alone in their hour of need etc. Just look at many women in Ukraine, who are actively taking up arms and defending their country. Until I acquired my disability, I'd have been right next to Mr KC if we had burglars or something. We'd be far stronger as a pair. Nowadays, I have to accept that my fighting days are over though. As for "women and children first", having read accounts of some serious events in recent years, I'm not convinced that mindset still exists in the way it did, for example, when the Titanic went down. Even then, many men pushed into the lifeboats, ahead of women and children (and that's without considering the class divide). https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/women-and-children-first-it-s-every-man-for-himself-on-a-sinking-ship-7987975.html | |||
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"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all. We have to acknowledge that males and females behave very differently on the spectrum. Both are far more prone to different behaviours. Women tend to be more caring and nurturing and men more reactive and combative. So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours. Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine things. Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one? Probably less different than you'd think really. Men still generally do the dangerous jobs. Masculinity would dictate that, if my house were getting burgled I would be the one to get in harms way first. If we were being mugged I would still be expected by society and myself, to take the lead in what happens and be the human shield. I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that." We can't comment on your profile (rules and whatnot), but lots of men include descriptions of themselves that might be considered stereotypically masculine (like strong arms, broad shoulders, big thighs etc). Similarly, some men who lack those physical features make self deprecating comments about their slim build, shorter stature and many, MANY men lie about their height and penis size. We wonder why these physical descriptors are considered necessary? Pictures can presumably convey such info and one person's big shoulders might be another person's mediocre shoulders? (I know that I have massive, broad shoulders *for a woman* ) | |||
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"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all. We have to acknowledge that males and females behave very differently on the spectrum. Both are far more prone to different behaviours. Women tend to be more caring and nurturing and men more reactive and combative. So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours. Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine property of the personality spectrum. Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one? Probably less different than you'd think really. Men still generally do the dangerous jobs. Masculinity would dictate that, if my house were getting burgled I would be the one to get in harms way first. If we were being mugged I would still be expected by society and myself, to take the lead in what happens and be the human shield. I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that. We can't comment on your profile (rules and whatnot), but lots of men include descriptions of themselves that might be considered stereotypically masculine (like strong arms, broad shoulders, big thighs etc). Similarly, some men who lack those physical features make self deprecating comments about their slim build, shorter stature and many, MANY men lie about their height and penis size. We wonder why these physical descriptors are considered necessary? Pictures can presumably convey such info and one person's big shoulders might be another person's mediocre shoulders? (I know that I have massive, broad shoulders *for a woman* )"Please don't take my words as capturing everyone and everything. A women can be and is as deadly as a man in every way. I'm not at all saying women can't do that but when two partners are together and that would apply probably equally to MM, MF, FF couples too, there's probably one with more tendency to be combative in those situations and generally speaking, that's a masculine property of the personality spectrum Same reason we have more males in prison for violence, more males in high speed wrecks or wreckers driving, males in bar fights. More male bin collectors, sewage workers, road sweepers. Its not always a good tendency but I general, I'd say a big portion of masculinity is ones self imposed duty to be the front line during danger or to put one's self in difficult or dangerous positions more willingly. and I am in no way saying these things are good or bad. Or apply to everyone. I'm talking in general and about the subject. I don't think profile pics really fit the conversation. Also, I literally have a dick appointment early next week so... no judgement here | |||
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"It's a really good philosophical question but not simple at all. We have to acknowledge that males and females behave very differently on the spectrum. Both are far more prone to different behaviours. Women tend to be more caring and nurturing and men more reactive and combative. So behaviours that are more closely align to a certain gender get labelled as masculine or feminine but it's important not to pigeon hole individuals because of their generally perceived behaviours. Masculine men can do typically feminine things and feminine women can do typically masculine property of the personality spectrum. Definitely not simple, we agree. I wonder what typical masculine and feminine things might be? Have these changed over time? Would a 19th century masculine thing be different to a 21st century one? Probably less different than you'd think really. Men still generally do the dangerous jobs. Masculinity would dictate that, if my house were getting burgled I would be the one to get in harms way first. If we were being mugged I would still be expected by society and myself, to take the lead in what happens and be the human shield. I think there is still a lot to say for 'women and children first' which seems like a very masculine sort of concept. I think in general most men still think like that. We can't comment on your profile (rules and whatnot), but lots of men include descriptions of themselves that might be considered stereotypically masculine (like strong arms, broad shoulders, big thighs etc). Similarly, some men who lack those physical features make self deprecating comments about their slim build, shorter stature and many, MANY men lie about their height and penis size. We wonder why these physical descriptors are considered necessary? Pictures can presumably convey such info and one person's big shoulders might be another person's mediocre shoulders? (I know that I have massive, broad shoulders *for a woman* )
Please don't take my words as capturing everyone and everything. A women can be and is as deadly as a man in every way. I'm not at all saying women can't do that but when two partners are together and that would apply probably equally to MM, MF, FF couples too, there's probably one with more tendency to be combative in those situations and generally speaking, that's a masculine property of the personality spectrum
Same reason we have more males in prison for violence, more males in high speed wrecks or wreckers driving, males in bar fights. More male bin collectors, sewage workers, road sweepers. Its not always a good tendency but I general, I'd say a big portion of masculinity is ones self imposed duty to be the front line during danger or to put one's self in difficult or dangerous positions more willingly.
and I am in no way saying these things are good or bad. Or apply to everyone. I'm talking in general and about the subject. I don't think profile pics really fit the conversation.
Also, I literally have a dick appointment early next week so... no judgement here"Yikes, we replied to the wrong person with that last one! Sorry 
We replied to you with some data on dangerous jobs and stuff. Absolutely no issues with profiles (but good luck with your dick appointment )
We'll reply to the right guy now! | |||
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"What is it? Does it exist? Should the concept exist? This musing is inspired by the "Femininity" thread we posted yesterday and which generated some very interesting and insightful conversation. We thought, "why not muse on masculinity too?" Mr KC doesn't consider himself to be particularly masculine. He doesn't like football or rugby or most sports. He's a miniature hobbyist. He's not muscular in build but he's very tall. He's quite a quiet, introspective person and doesn't like conflict, although if threatened, he will defend himself and people he holds dear. He's also incredibly intelligent, kind, generous and THE most supportive husband and father. But he's still not considered "masculine" by societal standards. I (Mrs KC) also happen to think he's handsome as hell and in a bedroom situation, he's a dominant character, quite different to how he comes across in day to day life. So, what IS masculinity? What does it mean in the 21st century? Why are some men not seen as masculine? The very word is defined as "having qualities traditionally considered to be suitable for a man," so should we even be striving for masculinity? Is it reinforcing gender stereotypes? Discuss! The question shouldn't be does it exist but should it exist . Who does it exist for? How many men here have masculine as a description of themselves on their profile ? " ORIGINALLY REPLIED TO THE WRONG RESPONSE, SORRY! We can't comment on your profile (rules and whatnot), but lots of men include descriptions of themselves that might be considered stereotypically masculine (like strong arms, broad shoulders, big thighs etc). Similarly, some men who lack those physical features make self deprecating comments about their slim build, shorter stature and many, MANY men lie about their height and penis size. We wonder why these physical descriptors are considered necessary? Pictures can presumably convey such info and one person's big shoulders might be another person's mediocre shoulders? (I know that I have massive, broad shoulders *for a woman* ) | |||
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"This is a fascinating discussion. I'd like to recommend this TED radio hour programme on the biology of sex. https://player.fm/1BPShAx" On my list | |||
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"This is a fascinating discussion. I'd like to recommend this TED radio hour programme on the biology of sex. https://player.fm/1BPShAx" Thanks, will take a look in the cold hard light of day | |||
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"People are who they are, there is no point trying to be someone they are not. He has quality’s that other males don’t, masculine is over rated xxx" Thank you. Actually neither of us are particularly bothered that we're not considered masculine/feminine (see the previous "Feminine" thread). We're mainly using ourselves as stimulus material to be honest. We agree that it's best to focus on the person and not in trying to apply labels. | |||
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"I feel that I am a person who has some experience of life on both sides of the gender divide, and who takes more than a casual interest in gendered behaviour. Making a super wide generalisation, I see a lot of toxicity in much of "traditional" masculine traits. Anger, violence, narcissism, self-centredness, physical strength and a willingness to use it, prizing power over service, might above right... A lot of this behaviour being linked to high testosterone levels, some of it learned behaviour from being brought up to be "masculine". From empirical observation, I have seen the emotional character of some trans women change markedly when they have started on gender hormone therapy, becoming more empathic and thoughtful of the needs of others. I'm sure that gender differences are not as simple as masculine = testosterone = bad, feminine = oestrogen = good. It is perhaps true though that the very worst examples of humanity do tend to be men who regard themselves are being exemplars of masculinity (viz. Putin, Stalin, most any other dictator)." Thank you, Polly. Very interesting insight (as ever) from someone with a fairly unique perspective. It is very interesting as to how hormones might play a role, but also, to what extent is it correlation vs causation? Could it be possible that a man with higher T is more stereotypically masculine because he's displaying learned behaviour, rather than his T being the driver of his behaviour? | |||
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"What is it? Does it exist? Should the concept exist? This musing is inspired by the "Femininity" thread we posted yesterday and which generated some very interesting and insightful conversation. We thought, "why not muse on masculinity too?" Mr KC doesn't consider himself to be particularly masculine. He doesn't like football or rugby or most sports. He's a miniature hobbyist. He's not muscular in build but he's very tall. He's quite a quiet, introspective person and doesn't like conflict, although if threatened, he will defend himself and people he holds dear. He's also incredibly intelligent, kind, generous and THE most supportive husband and father. But he's still not considered "masculine" by societal standards. I (Mrs KC) also happen to think he's handsome as hell and in a bedroom situation, he's a dominant character, quite different to how he comes across in day to day life. So, what IS masculinity? What does it mean in the 21st century? Why are some men not seen as masculine? The very word is defined as "having qualities traditionally considered to be suitable for a man," so should we even be striving for masculinity? Is it reinforcing gender stereotypes? Discuss!" To me masculinity is about performing the roles that males are more suited to and asserting my dominance over other men in one way or another.... that sounds bad when i read it back but i'll explain. I am a bald, 6'6" male who has lots of testosterone, hence the baldness. I have always took part in sports, especially boxing and basketball, and love nothing more than winning or asserting my dominance over others whilst participating. I can't explain why this is really, I believe it's as much to do with not letting myself look weak as it is winning. But as I get older I have come to realise that sports are one of the only times I'm present and it's almost like meditation for me. The only times I have ever felt depressed is when I'm not exercising. I don't like others to treat me like I'm weak or vulnerable either. I will challenge and fight others to stop this happening. I believe this stems from me being mixed race. I learnt at school that as one of the only black kids, I could not tolerate any form of racism because if I let one person do it, everyone could and maybe would. I even fought friends because of silly racist comments that I knew they didn't really mean, they were just observations. Like how you call some a fat so and so if they're overweight. But again, I felt I could not show weakness. I see it as my role to be the protector of my family and would do anything to uphold that. I believe this is still needed if I'm honest. I am stronger and have more muscle mass than the females or children I am protecting so would feel responsible if I was unable to protect them. I am not a violent person and would much rather talk things out. But I do think at times there is no reasoning with others so will do what I have to stop them doing things I disagree with. And to finish: I do believe men and women have different roles because of how different our bodies and hormones are. It's not set in stone but in every relationship I've ever been in they are more caring and sensitive than me. Where as i have always been expected to do all the lifting and building. This is probably more to do with us as people but I can't imagine it being any other way. | |||
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" To me masculinity is about performing the roles that males are more suited to and asserting my dominance over other men in one way or another.... that sounds bad when i read it back but i'll explain. I am a bald, 6'6" male who has lots of testosterone, hence the baldness. I have always took part in sports, especially boxing and basketball, and love nothing more than winning or asserting my dominance over others whilst participating. I can't explain why this is really, I believe it's as much to do with not letting myself look weak as it is winning. But as I get older I have come to realise that sports are one of the only times I'm present and it's almost like meditation for me. The only times I have ever felt depressed is when I'm not exercising. I don't like others to treat me like I'm weak or vulnerable either. I will challenge and fight others to stop this happening. I believe this stems from me being mixed race. I learnt at school that as one of the only black kids, I could not tolerate any form of racism because if I let one person do it, everyone could and maybe would. I even fought friends because of silly racist comments that I knew they didn't really mean, they were just observations. Like how you call some a fat so and so if they're overweight. But again, I felt I could not show weakness. I see it as my role to be the protector of my family and would do anything to uphold that. I believe this is still needed if I'm honest. I am stronger and have more muscle mass than the females or children I am protecting so would feel responsible if I was unable to protect them. I am not a violent person and would much rather talk things out. But I do think at times there is no reasoning with others so will do what I have to stop them doing things I disagree with. And to finish: I do believe men and women have different roles because of how different our bodies and hormones are. It's not set in stone but in every relationship I've ever been in they are more caring and sensitive than me. Where as i have always been expected to do all the lifting and building. This is probably more to do with us as people but I can't imagine it being any other way. " Okay - male pattern baldness is not caused by high levels of testosterone. It's caused by a genetic predisposition to be more sensitive to the effects of dihydrotestosterone. Men with MPB have physiologically normal levels of T, but over produce an enzyme involved in converting T to dihydrotestosterone, which can cause hair follicles to shrink (among other things). https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20121210-are-bald-men-more-virile#:~:text=Hamilton%27s%20finding%20suggested%20that%20high,levels%20can%20still%20go%20bald. As for the rest, I, Mrs KC (the lady of the couple), identify pretty strongly with being super competitive. I am well known for being THE most competitive person known to my family and friends. I enjoy contact sports (always have) and take a lot of pleasure in beating men at my chosen sport of wheelchair basketball. How is this relevant? We're back to correlation and causation. Is it masculinity and suchlike that leads you to be you, or is it just......you? Have women been more caring etc and you more expected to lift and shift due to inbuilt biological difference or due to societal norms that you have all seen when growing up? I've described myself above as über competitive, I'm also physically strong, I lift weights etc. But I'm also a very caring and motherly person and always have been. I do wonder how much is biology and how much is copying societal norms/what we see around us when we're growing up. Thank you for your contribution! | |||
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 ) but at school, Mr KC was frequently bullied for his hobby of collecting and painting miniatures and it's only in recent years where such hobbies seem (to us, anyway) to have become more mainstream.
Basically, we're prodding the bear by using ourselves as examples, with a few stereotypes lumped in as stimulus.
In reality, neither of us could particularly care how or if we are categorised and neither of us feel especially "masculine" or "feminine" nor, to be honest, have any special or fluffy feelings about our gender. We are two people who, despite being wildly different, seem pretty well matched.
We just liked the topic, which was stimulated by some interesting comments on other threads in recent days.
We agree that taking gender out of the equation is often sensible | |||
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"I’m actually large built guy it counts for nothing reallly "Do you mind us asking in what way it counts for nothing? Obviously if you don't feel comfortable expanding, then please don't feel pressured to do so. | |||
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"I think i'm a masculine guy and I also think that everyone spends way too much time on the internet getting offended about what label they fall under" Would you care to expand on what specifically about you/your character is particularly masculine? We hope no-one is offended by the thread and conversation, we merely intended to have a thoughtful discussion. We did a similar thread on "femininity" also. | |||
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"I think i'm a masculine guy and I also think that everyone spends way too much time on the internet getting offended about what label they fall under" -I know what you mean but I wouldn't say everyone- | |||
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"I’m actually large built guy it counts for nothing reallly "-On here though it must mean something surely? | |||
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"We had similar conversation the other day. Those that don't know me I surpose I'm quiet masculine. But cherry said I'm also in touch with my feminine side and not afraid to show emotions. Fiercely protective of those important to me, friends and family...I'm just me. Would you guys say that showing emotions is a feminine trait? Does that apply to all emotions? Thank you for your contribution!" I don't think showing emotions is a female trait. In my view to show emotions is a emotional resistance and about emotional intelligence. As for the feminine side, I'm very touchy feely, I'm very good at reading cherry and quite empathic. But on the other side I suppose I enjoy doing what would be considered traditional male things, fixing and making things, which I guess I get from my dad and grandad. Really liking this post. Lots to think about! | |||
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