FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Ban all sporting categories
Ban all sporting categories
Jump to: Newest in thread
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"With all this bickering over unfair advantages is it time to just ban all sporting categories based on age and gender and disability. No more under 21s football, no more men's and women's cycling, athletics or rugby. Just throw everyone in the same pot. Men women disabled and trans all fighting to get into the same team ... One England Rugby team with men women and trans all playing together..." No. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'd prefer the banning of posting topics deliberately designed to try and stir up silly drama. " Sounds good! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So the end of Women's sport then. Rugby in particular would mean some women would get seriously hurt. This thread is a low point for you, Tom. "I think he's trying to make a point...not actually suggest we do away with categories. At least that's what I thought when I read it. Highlights the stupidity of the statement about inherent genetic and bodily advantages being unavoidable, so why bother making adjustments to accommodate for them. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So the end of Women's sport then. Rugby in particular would mean some women would get seriously hurt. This thread is a low point for you, Tom.
I think he's trying to make a point...not actually suggest we do away with categories. At least that's what I thought when I read it.
Highlights the stupidity of the statement about inherent genetic and bodily advantages being unavoidable, so why bother making adjustments to accommodate for them."Maybe. I think it's a poor way to tackle a controversial subject. But at the end of the day I don't think sport can be both totally inclusive AND totally fair. And that's the conclusion the IOC came to. The individual sports bodies have to choose their own way to balance diversity, inclusion and fairness. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'd prefer the banning of posting topics deliberately designed to try and stir up silly drama. " It wouldn’t be an Essex Tom post if it didn’t! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So the end of Women's sport then. Rugby in particular would mean some women would get seriously hurt. This thread is a low point for you, Tom.
I think he's trying to make a point...not actually suggest we do away with categories. At least that's what I thought when I read it.
Highlights the stupidity of the statement about inherent genetic and bodily advantages being unavoidable, so why bother making adjustments to accommodate for them.
Maybe. I think it's a poor way to tackle a controversial subject. But at the end of the day I don't think sport can be both totally inclusive AND totally fair. And that's the conclusion the IOC came to. The individual sports bodies have to choose their own way to balance diversity, inclusion and fairness. "They've had a fair system as is possible for years. No need to change it. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So the end of Women's sport then. Rugby in particular would mean some women would get seriously hurt. This thread is a low point for you, Tom. "And he wants to abolish underage categories too, and disabled categories. Not sure why he would want this | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Would be interesting to see which sports you could mix and others which would not be able to. I found the mixed relays etc really good especially from a tactical point of view " The synchronised swimming would be shite. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Would be interesting to see which sports you could mix and others which would not be able to. I found the mixed relays etc really good especially from a tactical point of view The synchronised swimming would be shite." … already is | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Would be interesting to see which sports you could mix and others which would not be able to. I found the mixed relays etc really good especially from a tactical point of view The synchronised swimming would be shite." Id agree with that! Team sports could work if you had the same mixed numbers | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"With all this bickering over unfair advantages is it time to just ban all sporting categories based on age and gender and disability. No more under 21s football, no more men's and women's cycling, athletics or rugby. Just throw everyone in the same pot. Men women disabled and trans all fighting to get into the same team ... One England Rugby team with men women and trans all playing together..." No. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So the end of Women's sport then. Rugby in particular would mean some women would get seriously hurt. This thread is a low point for you, Tom.
I think he's trying to make a point...not actually suggest we do away with categories. At least that's what I thought when I read it.
Highlights the stupidity of the statement about inherent genetic and bodily advantages being unavoidable, so why bother making adjustments to accommodate for them.
Maybe. I think it's a poor way to tackle a controversial subject. But at the end of the day I don't think sport can be both totally inclusive AND totally fair. And that's the conclusion the IOC came to. The individual sports bodies have to choose their own way to balance diversity, inclusion and fairness. "Sport as a competitive activity by its very nature needs to be fair above all else, including being inclusive. It is a tricky road to navigate, and 100% fair is unachievable but attempting to make it so should be the priority instead of adjusting goal posts (pun!) because of inclusion as the only argument. I don't have the correct answer to what the solution is, nor do I really have any personal investment either way other than fairness should not be compromised. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So the end of Women's sport then. Rugby in particular would mean some women would get seriously hurt. This thread is a low point for you, Tom.
I think he's trying to make a point...not actually suggest we do away with categories. At least that's what I thought when I read it.
Highlights the stupidity of the statement about inherent genetic and bodily advantages being unavoidable, so why bother making adjustments to accommodate for them.
Maybe. I think it's a poor way to tackle a controversial subject. But at the end of the day I don't think sport can be both totally inclusive AND totally fair. And that's the conclusion the IOC came to. The individual sports bodies have to choose their own way to balance diversity, inclusion and fairness.
Sport as a competitive activity by its very nature needs to be fair above all else, including being inclusive. It is a tricky road to navigate, and 100% fair is unachievable but attempting to make it so should be the priority instead of adjusting goal posts (pun!) because of inclusion as the only argument.
I don't have the correct answer to what the solution is, nor do I really have any personal investment either way other than fairness should not be compromised."Fair.  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah, it's just health and saftey gone mad, myself I'm entering the girls under 14s judo, because thats how i identify "And this is the ridiculous argument that undermines all sensible debate on the matter. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Please tell me that's a April fools!!?? Absolutely crazy, 2 examples I am. Aware of personally Rugby, in men's or womens, trans would get seriously or hurt someone seriously Power lifting, a American transitioned female, broke all records held by women by stupid amounts unfair and not exceptible Have trans rugby team, Same with any team or strength sport " Who was the powerlifter, I'd like to look into that. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah, it's just health and saftey gone mad, myself I'm entering the girls under 14s judo, because thats how i identify
And this is the ridiculous argument that undermines all sensible debate on the matter. "It's ok, I know it's a long way down off the ipon sionage but they can breakfall. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah, it's just health and saftey gone mad, myself I'm entering the girls under 14s judo, because thats how i identify
And this is the ridiculous argument that undermines all sensible debate on the matter.
It's ok, I know it's a long way down off the ipon sionage but they can breakfall.
"I have no clue what that means | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Please tell me that's a April fools!!?? Absolutely crazy, 2 examples I am. Aware of personally Rugby, in men's or womens, trans would get seriously or hurt someone seriously Power lifting, a American transitioned female, broke all records held by women by stupid amounts unfair and not exceptible Have trans rugby team, Same with any team or strength sport Who was the powerlifter, I'd like to look into that. " Hasn't Fallon Fox cracked 2 girls skulls in the cage now? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Please tell me that's a April fools!!?? Absolutely crazy, 2 examples I am. Aware of personally Rugby, in men's or womens, trans would get seriously or hurt someone seriously Power lifting, a American transitioned female, broke all records held by women by stupid amounts unfair and not exceptible Have trans rugby team, Same with any team or strength sport Who was the powerlifter, I'd like to look into that. Hasn't Fallon Fox cracked 2 girls skulls in the cage now? " Is that powerlifting? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Please tell me that's a April fools!!?? Absolutely crazy, 2 examples I am. Aware of personally Rugby, in men's or womens, trans would get seriously or hurt someone seriously Power lifting, a American transitioned female, broke all records held by women by stupid amounts unfair and not exceptible Have trans rugby team, Same with any team or strength sport Who was the powerlifter, I'd like to look into that. Hasn't Fallon Fox cracked 2 girls skulls in the cage now? " Fallon Fox isn't a power lifter she's a MMA. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah, it's just health and saftey gone mad, myself I'm entering the girls under 14s judo, because thats how i identify
And this is the ridiculous argument that undermines all sensible debate on the matter.
It's ok, I know it's a long way down off the ipon sionage but they can breakfall.
I have no clue what that means "It's a shoulder throw. Like the one an irresponsible instructor paralysed a kid with the other year. Hence the weight and age categories. Even in combat sports like BJJ there are rules for each age and grade group of what techniques are allowed. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Please tell me that's a April fools!!?? Absolutely crazy, 2 examples I am. Aware of personally Rugby, in men's or womens, trans would get seriously or hurt someone seriously Power lifting, a American transitioned female, broke all records held by women by stupid amounts unfair and not exceptible Have trans rugby team, Same with any team or strength sport Who was the powerlifter, I'd like to look into that. Hasn't Fallon Fox cracked 2 girls skulls in the cage now? Fallon Fox isn't a power lifter she's a MMA." Demonstrating a massive strenght advantage. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"With all this bickering over unfair advantages is it time to just ban all sporting categories based on age and gender and disability. No more under 21s football, no more men's and women's cycling, athletics or rugby. Just throw everyone in the same pot. Men women disabled and trans all fighting to get into the same team ... One England Rugby team with men women and trans all playing together..." Ridiculous. Easy answer no. End of thread | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Also clearly an April fools wind up " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Also clearly an April fools wind up " Well no. Because it's already been suggested that one way to tackle transgender inclusion in elite sport would be to have an Open Category and a Female Category. I don't think this would apply to Junior and Disabled athletes. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/what-does-the-new-transgender-guidance-mean-for-sports-in-uk | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Also clearly an April fools wind up Well no. Because it's already been suggested that one way to tackle transgender inclusion in elite sport would be to have an Open Category and a Female Category. I don't think this would apply to Junior and Disabled athletes. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/what-does-the-new-transgender-guidance-mean-for-sports-in-uk" So it's all over the news.. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'd rather see a drugs Olympics where the athletes can take whatever preforming enhancing drugs they want. Could be sponsored by phiser. Lol" Plus one for this! And get rid of all rules for a sports. I won't stop campaigning until I see a goalkeeper drive a tank through the midfield. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'd rather see a drugs Olympics where the athletes can take whatever preforming enhancing drugs they want. Could be sponsored by phiser. Lol Plus one for this! And get rid of all rules for a sports. I won't stop campaigning until I see a goalkeeper drive a tank through the midfield. " I'm in, like Paul Merton said once: I'm gonna do the 100m on a motorbike, you don't mind the sidecar do you? My mate wants a gold medal as well. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It would put an end to all of it once and for all Pretty sure the US World Cup football team got pants by some local youth team That’s equality " They did... Dallas fc under 15s... In 2017. Its all over the news Tom.. Or it was. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Sex Olympics. Let's do that "How would the competitors be categorised? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone." You make a good point. Trouble is that at community level, when clubs struggle to keep going as is... Getting facilities or getting enough of a particular fine grained category to train and play and compete meaningfully is going to take some magic. I'm not sure if it's putting more obstacles in the way to participation and therefore inclusion and perhaps enjoyment too. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" One England Rugby team with men women and trans all playing together..." ...in the shower afterwards | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Sex Olympics. Let's do that
How would the competitors be categorised? "Dangly bit or not? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone." You're not going to find many 5'6" men at the pinnacle of the high jump. Talk about straw-manning an argument to death. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Lia Thomas said that she won the swimming Title fair and square and if anyone doesn't like it, they can suck her cock! " And her husband's tits | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone. You're not going to find many 5'6" men at the pinnacle of the high jump. Talk about straw-manning an argument to death. " Yes but the shit throwing about trans people in sport is not just aimed at olympic level competitions. The aim of the "gender critical" brigade, the right wing press, Liz Truss and the general transphobes is to raise barriers against the involvement of trans people in sport at any level. The end game for these people is to remove trans people from society entirely. We are not just supposed to be not seen, we are supposed to not even exist. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'd prefer the banning of posting topics deliberately designed to try and stir up silly drama. " + 1 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone. You're not going to find many 5'6" men at the pinnacle of the high jump. Talk about straw-manning an argument to death. Yes but the shit throwing about trans people in sport is not just aimed at olympic level competitions. The aim of the "gender critical" brigade, the right wing press, Liz Truss and the general transphobes is to raise barriers against the involvement of trans people in sport at any level. The end game for these people is to remove trans people from society entirely. We are not just supposed to be not seen, we are supposed to not even exist." And many trans want to stop any woman debating this issue. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'd prefer the banning of posting topics deliberately designed to try and stir up silly drama. + 1 " it does draw the snakes out of the grass into the light though | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone. You're not going to find many 5'6" men at the pinnacle of the high jump. Talk about straw-manning an argument to death. Yes but the shit throwing about trans people in sport is not just aimed at olympic level competitions. The aim of the "gender critical" brigade, the right wing press, Liz Truss and the general transphobes is to raise barriers against the involvement of trans people in sport at any level. The end game for these people is to remove trans people from society entirely. We are not just supposed to be not seen, we are supposed to not even exist. And many trans want to stop any woman debating this issue." what kind of a statement is that ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone. You're not going to find many 5'6" men at the pinnacle of the high jump. Talk about straw-manning an argument to death. Yes but the shit throwing about trans people in sport is not just aimed at olympic level competitions. The aim of the "gender critical" brigade, the right wing press, Liz Truss and the general transphobes is to raise barriers against the involvement of trans people in sport at any level. The end game for these people is to remove trans people from society entirely. We are not just supposed to be not seen, we are supposed to not even exist." agree these dinosaurs still believe it’s a mental illness | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone. You're not going to find many 5'6" men at the pinnacle of the high jump. Talk about straw-manning an argument to death. Yes but the shit throwing about trans people in sport is not just aimed at olympic level competitions. The aim of the "gender critical" brigade, the right wing press, Liz Truss and the general transphobes is to raise barriers against the involvement of trans people in sport at any level. The end game for these people is to remove trans people from society entirely. We are not just supposed to be not seen, we are supposed to not even exist." Im not sure many people are arguing that trans people can not participate in sports. I think the argument is how to maintain competition and participant safety, fairness and integrity for all participants. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone. You're not going to find many 5'6" men at the pinnacle of the high jump. Talk about straw-manning an argument to death. Yes but the shit throwing about trans people in sport is not just aimed at olympic level competitions. The aim of the "gender critical" brigade, the right wing press, Liz Truss and the general transphobes is to raise barriers against the involvement of trans people in sport at any level. The end game for these people is to remove trans people from society entirely. We are not just supposed to be not seen, we are supposed to not even exist. And many trans want to stop any woman debating this issue. what kind of a statement is that ? " A true one unfortunately. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If they all get paid the same, great idea." | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Sex Olympics. Let's do that
How would the competitors be categorised? "what like West Indian 100m Sprint etc | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. " agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females " But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone. You're not going to find many 5'6" men at the pinnacle of the high jump. Talk about straw-manning an argument to death. Yes but the shit throwing about trans people in sport is not just aimed at olympic level competitions. The aim of the "gender critical" brigade, the right wing press, Liz Truss and the general transphobes is to raise barriers against the involvement of trans people in sport at any level. The end game for these people is to remove trans people from society entirely. We are not just supposed to be not seen, we are supposed to not even exist." See that's where you're wrong. Nobody is saying the trans people shouldn't be allowed to compete. But when you have biological males that are outperforming against biological females because of inherent advantages the only people that hurts is the women. 2 women lost thier chance at a career because a man who was ranked 500th smashed female world records. On which planet is that even remotely fair. Yes all people have advantages over each other. Watch biological male sprinting. At the top they are so close records are beat at hundredths of a second. When a biological male competes against a biological female the records are smashed sometimes with up to 10 seconds leads. That is completely unfair. And deny that only leads me to think that anyone that has an issue with this just hates women. Most of these controversies are at the cost of women. There are incredibly few female to male competitors because they don't have the biological advantages. So it doesn't affect us men. But it's the women I feel sorry for. There's a very very simple solution to all of this. There needs to be trans categories. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. " you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women " There just hasn't been enough research on transgender people in sport to support that assertion. There isn't enough data unless you can point to an academic study? And trans women aren't competing after 3-5 years, they're competing (in Lia Thomas's case) after not even 2 years of taking T. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women There just hasn't been enough research on transgender people in sport to support that assertion. There isn't enough data unless you can point to an academic study? And trans women aren't competing after 3-5 years, they're competing (in Lia Thomas's case) after not even 2 years of taking T. " agree less than two years is unfair and there’s been loads of research regarding muscle atrophy with M2F transsexuals | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I'd prefer the banning of posting topics deliberately designed to try and stir up silly drama. " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women " But they have the same muscle structure. The same bone structure. Faster reflexes. The ability to regain that muscle very quickly, which is kind of useful for an athlete. It doesn't matter. They will always have an advantage. This is been proven over and over and over and over. 12 year old school boys beating the australian women's Olympic football team. A DJ with no fight training beating 9 women in a boxing match. World record female boxing champion taken down by an amateur boxer. The list goes on and on and on. Go look it up. This argument between men and women in sports had been going on ever since sports were a thing. Every once in a while a woman will say she can beat any man and then gets humbled. Its happened in tennis, boxing, running, swimming, weight lifting etc etc etc. You can't deny basic biology it's that simple. There is no argument to be had here. The categories are a thing for a reason and trans people need thier own categories. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women But they have the same muscle structure. The same bone structure. Faster reflexes. The ability to regain that muscle very quickly, which is kind of useful for an athlete. It doesn't matter. They will always have an advantage. This is been proven over and over and over and over. 12 year old school boys beating the australian women's Olympic football team. A DJ with no fight training beating 9 women in a boxing match. World record female boxing champion taken down by an amateur boxer. The list goes on and on and on. Go look it up. This argument between men and women in sports had been going on ever since sports were a thing. Every once in a while a woman will say she can beat any man and then gets humbled. Its happened in tennis, boxing, running, swimming, weight lifting etc etc etc. You can't deny basic biology it's that simple. There is no argument to be had here. The categories are a thing for a reason and trans people need thier own categories. " not at all it’s impossible for me to have masculine legs even though I cycle huge distances the differences between my legs and a man’s legs is extremely noticeable | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women There just hasn't been enough research on transgender people in sport to support that assertion. There isn't enough data unless you can point to an academic study? And trans women aren't competing after 3-5 years, they're competing (in Lia Thomas's case) after not even 2 years of taking T. agree less than two years is unfair and there’s been loads of research regarding muscle atrophy with M2F transsexuals " That would be fine if competitors were middle aged but they aren't. There are men who are literally competing, losing and then transitioning and beating every body. The time frame is too short to make that kind of study. You're talking about comparing average every day people. Athletes are anything but average. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women But they have the same muscle structure. The same bone structure. Faster reflexes. The ability to regain that muscle very quickly, which is kind of useful for an athlete. It doesn't matter. They will always have an advantage. This is been proven over and over and over and over. 12 year old school boys beating the australian women's Olympic football team. A DJ with no fight training beating 9 women in a boxing match. World record female boxing champion taken down by an amateur boxer. The list goes on and on and on. Go look it up. This argument between men and women in sports had been going on ever since sports were a thing. Every once in a while a woman will say she can beat any man and then gets humbled. Its happened in tennis, boxing, running, swimming, weight lifting etc etc etc. You can't deny basic biology it's that simple. There is no argument to be had here. The categories are a thing for a reason and trans people need thier own categories. not at all it’s impossible for me to have masculine legs even though I cycle huge distances the differences between my legs and a man’s legs is extremely noticeable " So? You'd still beat women. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women But they have the same muscle structure. The same bone structure. Faster reflexes. The ability to regain that muscle very quickly, which is kind of useful for an athlete. It doesn't matter. They will always have an advantage. This is been proven over and over and over and over. 12 year old school boys beating the australian women's Olympic football team. A DJ with no fight training beating 9 women in a boxing match. World record female boxing champion taken down by an amateur boxer. The list goes on and on and on. Go look it up. This argument between men and women in sports had been going on ever since sports were a thing. Every once in a while a woman will say she can beat any man and then gets humbled. Its happened in tennis, boxing, running, swimming, weight lifting etc etc etc. You can't deny basic biology it's that simple. There is no argument to be had here. The categories are a thing for a reason and trans people need thier own categories. not at all it’s impossible for me to have masculine legs even though I cycle huge distances the differences between my legs and a man’s legs is extremely noticeable " shit loads of research has been carried out there just needs to be some ground rules a time limit as to when these affects take place you usually find a person looks after themselves a lot better and become much more healthier when they’ve transitioned to | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women But they have the same muscle structure. The same bone structure. Faster reflexes. The ability to regain that muscle very quickly, which is kind of useful for an athlete. It doesn't matter. They will always have an advantage. This is been proven over and over and over and over. 12 year old school boys beating the australian women's Olympic football team. A DJ with no fight training beating 9 women in a boxing match. World record female boxing champion taken down by an amateur boxer. The list goes on and on and on. Go look it up. This argument between men and women in sports had been going on ever since sports were a thing. Every once in a while a woman will say she can beat any man and then gets humbled. Its happened in tennis, boxing, running, swimming, weight lifting etc etc etc. You can't deny basic biology it's that simple. There is no argument to be had here. The categories are a thing for a reason and trans people need thier own categories. not at all it’s impossible for me to have masculine legs even though I cycle huge distances the differences between my legs and a man’s legs is extremely noticeable So? You'd still beat women." absolutely I wouldn’t I don’t run on testosterone anymore I’m a female on Strava and there’s plenty of women my age that a faster than me | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone." What about the key ingredient. Talent? Surely that’s a big factor too. For a proper sport that requires not just brute strength but a modicum of skill too. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women But they have the same muscle structure. The same bone structure. Faster reflexes. The ability to regain that muscle very quickly, which is kind of useful for an athlete. It doesn't matter. They will always have an advantage. This is been proven over and over and over and over. 12 year old school boys beating the australian women's Olympic football team. A DJ with no fight training beating 9 women in a boxing match. World record female boxing champion taken down by an amateur boxer. The list goes on and on and on. Go look it up. This argument between men and women in sports had been going on ever since sports were a thing. Every once in a while a woman will say she can beat any man and then gets humbled. Its happened in tennis, boxing, running, swimming, weight lifting etc etc etc. You can't deny basic biology it's that simple. There is no argument to be had here. The categories are a thing for a reason and trans people need thier own categories. not at all it’s impossible for me to have masculine legs even though I cycle huge distances the differences between my legs and a man’s legs is extremely noticeable shit loads of research has been carried out there just needs to be some ground rules a time limit as to when these affects take place you usually find a person looks after themselves a lot better and become much more healthier when they’ve transitioned to" But that time limit is outside the frame of possibility for an athlete. Seen any middle aged Olympic competitors? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"This is a very complex and divisive subject, and anybody who gives it the slightest thought should recognise that the transgender element thrown in is just a dog whistle. The fact is that all competitive sports where physical body makes a difference are unfair regardless of gender divisions. Any person who is 5 foot tall and weighs only 6 stones is at an utter disadvantage whichever gender rugby team they try to join and would get seriously injured. Any woman who is six foot tall (and there are many) is going to slaughter a 5 foot 6 man (and there are many) at the high jump. The only "fair" way to organise sports so that all could take part, would be to have hundreds of fine grained divisions, with every person only competing against others of similar strength/height/speed/whatever. Sport should not be about just determining which individual is best in the world at each particular event. Or if it is, the very crude categories of male and female just don't cut it in the modern world. A far more complex and nuanced view of sport is required in this 21st Century, and it is only as weapons against trans and other more complex genders/sexualities that 19th Century views keep being raised about who should and shouldn't be allowed to take part in what ought to be activities open to everyone. What about the key ingredient. Talent? Surely that’s a big factor too. For a proper sport that requires not just brute strength but a modicum of skill too. " It's an advantage but talent doesn't do much if you don't have anything to back it up with. It's a bit like giving a formula one driver a Ford fiesta and saying, you've got the talent you can beat the F1 cars. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women There just hasn't been enough research on transgender people in sport to support that assertion. There isn't enough data unless you can point to an academic study? And trans women aren't competing after 3-5 years, they're competing (in Lia Thomas's case) after not even 2 years of taking T. agree less than two years is unfair and there’s been loads of research regarding muscle atrophy with M2F transsexuals " In terms of impact on athletic performance? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah just the same as Usain Bolt has genetics that could be any white man in the 100m Sprint " That's disingenuous. Yes he's fastest. But only by hundredths of a second. Not tens of seconds like it would be if he competed against biological females. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah just the same as Usain Bolt has genetics that could be any white man in the 100m Sprint That's disingenuous. Yes he's fastest. But only by hundredths of a second. Not tens of seconds like it would be if he competed against biological females." a Usain Bolt on HRT for 5 years, I know wouldn’t be anywhere near as fast | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Emma Hilton, biologist, has researched this matter extensively. Have a look at her on Twitter. There is no fair way for a biological man to compete alongside women in professional sports. Have a female category and an "open to all" category." Lots of people have studied it. Thankfully more and more professional athletes are starting to speak up too Sharron Davies was talking about it the other day. I don't see why people get so upset about it. No ones trying to invalidate someone's identity. Its just simply unfair. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Emma Hilton, biologist, has researched this matter extensively. Have a look at her on Twitter. There is no fair way for a biological man to compete alongside women in professional sports. Have a female category and an "open to all" category. Lots of people have studied it. Thankfully more and more professional athletes are starting to speak up too Sharron Davies was talking about it the other day. I don't see why people get so upset about it. No ones trying to invalidate someone's identity. Its just simply unfair." Sharon Davis | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah just the same as Usain Bolt has genetics that could be any white man in the 100m Sprint That's disingenuous. Yes he's fastest. But only by hundredths of a second. Not tens of seconds like it would be if he competed against biological females. a Usain Bolt on HRT for 5 years, I know wouldn’t be anywhere near as fast " After 5 years he would be too old to compete. This is the part you're glossing over. Those effects can take up to a decade. The people competing are doing so sometimes less than a year after starting hormones. So I'm sorry but you're completely wrong on this one. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"More plates more dates on YouTube has made a video about the recent trans swimmer that’s quite interesting I agree with him " I'd rather take the words of a biologist than some bloke in his bedroom. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"So categories help make a sport more fair and inclusive. Agreed. The debate is on the nature of the categories. A poster in a previous thread who had insight into para sports showed that there will likely always be debate. Gender is a difficult one as it's not something that can be measured externally. Unlike age say. We do need to step away from the extreme of "man identifies as women just to win a medal". That, like a man identifying as a women just to get into safe spaces, is a straw man until it's shown this is a credible risk. So i then consider true trans women. At a professional level is there a way of putting an extra layer of control in, eg must be identifying for at least X years and have T below y? Don't know. Nowhere close to being an expert. At an ameuter level is it something we can live with? There are generally levels of skill so does it really matter? Maybe a parks maa footballer plays at county level when he formally identifies as a women. But both levels are, in the scheme of things, recreational. Despite how seriously everyone takes it. But if the answer is you compete in sex some doctor assigned to you at birth (or what your parents out on your birth certificate*) then will we allow trans men to compete in women's sport even if they are are meds? * Noone worries about a competitive parent putting a fake gender on a birth certificate do they, to game the system. agree most trans woman have a far lower T nmol/L than cis females But they have still gone through male puberty which gives them additional advantages which don't disappear after transition. It isn't just about T. you loose 20-30% if your strength and huge muscle atrophy you find trans woman after 3-5 years become a lot weaker than cis women But they have the same muscle structure. The same bone structure. Faster reflexes. The ability to regain that muscle very quickly, which is kind of useful for an athlete. It doesn't matter. They will always have an advantage. This is been proven over and over and over and over. 12 year old school boys beating the australian women's Olympic football team. A DJ with no fight training beating 9 women in a boxing match. World record female boxing champion taken down by an amateur boxer. The list goes on and on and on. Go look it up. This argument between men and women in sports had been going on ever since sports were a thing. Every once in a while a woman will say she can beat any man and then gets humbled. Its happened in tennis, boxing, running, swimming, weight lifting etc etc etc. You can't deny basic biology it's that simple. There is no argument to be had here. The categories are a thing for a reason and trans people need thier own categories. " It's not all the same for all sports. This is why I think it has to be decided by the individual sport bodies. Cycling is completely different from Rugby in terms of athletic ability surely? And again with swimming where a male body has the advantage of a larger "wingspan" (whatever it's called!) which wouldn't alter with transition. I think there is scope for discussion and different approaches for different sports for trans gender people. Taking into account research into transition and the impact on athletic ability for that sport. I have no desire whatsoever to see trans people ruled out of playing in their gender for every sport. But I want to see evidence that fairness forwards cis females has been considered in depth - not just in terms of winning, but access to opportunity, sponsorship and scholarships. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah just the same as Usain Bolt has genetics that could be any white man in the 100m Sprint That's disingenuous. Yes he's fastest. But only by hundredths of a second. Not tens of seconds like it would be if he competed against biological females. a Usain Bolt on HRT for 5 years, I know wouldn’t be anywhere near as fast After 5 years he would be too old to compete. This is the part you're glossing over. Those effects can take up to a decade. The people competing are doing so sometimes less than a year after starting hormones. So I'm sorry but you're completely wrong on this one." How can you be so certain? Are you a research biologist? Or have you just looked some stuff up on the Internet? I've never been that certain about new information. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Emma Hilton, biologist, has researched this matter extensively. Have a look at her on Twitter. There is no fair way for a biological man to compete alongside women in professional sports. Have a female category and an "open to all" category. Lots of people have studied it. Thankfully more and more professional athletes are starting to speak up too Sharron Davies was talking about it the other day. I don't see why people get so upset about it. No ones trying to invalidate someone's identity. Its just simply unfair." does this mean trans athletes needing to choose between their career and their transition ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Emma Hilton, biologist, has researched this matter extensively. Have a look at her on Twitter. There is no fair way for a biological man to compete alongside women in professional sports. Have a female category and an "open to all" category." Ross Tucker (Science of Sport) is very good too. The trans woman who conducted a couple of research studies into trans athletes is Joanna Harper - wonder if she's continuing her research. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah just the same as Usain Bolt has genetics that could be any white man in the 100m Sprint That's disingenuous. Yes he's fastest. But only by hundredths of a second. Not tens of seconds like it would be if he competed against biological females. a Usain Bolt on HRT for 5 years, I know wouldn’t be anywhere near as fast After 5 years he would be too old to compete. This is the part you're glossing over. Those effects can take up to a decade. The people competing are doing so sometimes less than a year after starting hormones. So I'm sorry but you're completely wrong on this one. How can you be so certain? Are you a research biologist? Or have you just looked some stuff up on the Internet? I've never been that certain about new information." How can I be certain? Go look at the records being broken. Don't need any more proof than that really. It's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? " I don't know the full extent of the ins and outs of transitioning. So I won't comment on that particular thing but in terms of the difference Human Males generally (always exceptions) are naturally (no enhancements or medication changes) are physically superior to females. So by transitioning as a male to female, it is thought that the advantage carries over. A female to male transition, under the same assumption would not carry over an advantage since they would be joining the physically superior division as it were. Though I'm sure if a FTM was conquering their division then it would be put down to enhanced Testosterone or something. This is not from a sexist or transphobic pov, just an explanation why it is only focused on the male to female aspect and female to male does not get brought up (much) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Emma Hilton, biologist, has researched this matter extensively. Have a look at her on Twitter. There is no fair way for a biological man to compete alongside women in professional sports. Have a female category and an "open to all" category. Lots of people have studied it. Thankfully more and more professional athletes are starting to speak up too Sharron Davies was talking about it the other day. I don't see why people get so upset about it. No ones trying to invalidate someone's identity. Its just simply unfair.does this mean trans athletes needing to choose between their career and their transition ?" They have a choice. They could compete on the category matching their biological sex. More choice than the female athletes who have to compete against them or walk away from a race or competition that they have trained their entire lives for. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? I don't know the full extent of the ins and outs of transitioning. So I won't comment on that particular thing but in terms of the difference Human Males generally (always exceptions) are naturally (no enhancements or medication changes) are physically superior to females. So by transitioning as a male to female, it is thought that the advantage carries over. A female to male transition, under the same assumption would not carry over an advantage since they would be joining the physically superior division as it were. Though I'm sure if a FTM was conquering their division then it would be put down to enhanced Testosterone or something. This is not from a sexist or transphobic pov, just an explanation why it is only focused on the male to female aspect and female to male does not get brought up (much) " Not a personal dig at you but crazy that it takes 26 lines to explain what my daughter knew at 3yrs old. Men are stronger and faster than women. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" But they have the same muscle structure. The same bone structure. Faster reflexes. The ability to regain that muscle very quickly, which is kind of useful for an athlete. It doesn't matter. They will always have an advantage. This is been proven over and over and over and over. 12 year old school boys beating the australian women's Olympic football team. A DJ with no fight training beating 9 women in a boxing match. World record female boxing champion taken down by an amateur boxer. The list goes on and on and on. Go look it up. This argument between men and women in sports had been going on ever since sports were a thing. Every once in a while a woman will say she can beat any man and then gets humbled. Its happened in tennis, boxing, running, swimming, weight lifting etc etc etc. You can't deny basic biology it's that simple. There is no argument to be had here. The categories are a thing for a reason and trans people need thier own categories. " I pride myself on being able to out-push male wheelchair basketball players I come up against, but there's always the odd one like a brick outhouse who out pushes me (as I swear under my breath)
Wheelchair basketball and rugby are about the most inclusive sports I can think of. In rugby, professional teams are mixed and the squad must include one woman minimum. Basketball is mixed most of the way through but segregated at pro level (unfortunately). I play in a mixed gender team. Each player is categorised by their impairment on a points basis (happy to explain to those interested) and if you are female, the only benefit (to your team) is that you get what we call "lady points." I'm a 4.5pt player but that reduces to 3.0 with lady points. However, we can only have 2.5pts worth of lady points on court at any time and the team of 5 must never exceed 14pts. Able bodied people can play at amateur level but are a maximum points value of 5pts. Only 1 AB player can be on court at once, per team.
The use of the wheelchair more or less evens out the playing field for players of points values 3-5. Players who are "low pointers" at 1-2.5pt are often those with some upper limb impairment and/or severe trunk instability, so they are usually slower, less able to shoot and manoeuvre than higher pointers. This means they have a different "job" on court. You have to have at least one low pointer on court at any time.
Basically, there's little advantage/disadvantage offered by gender. There's even little advantage to being AB compared to a high pointer like me.
Basically - wheelchair sports are the way forward for all. Huzzah! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"One good thing, Wimbledon could be over in a week." It will still rain | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? I don't know the full extent of the ins and outs of transitioning. So I won't comment on that particular thing but in terms of the difference Human Males generally (always exceptions) are naturally (no enhancements or medication changes) are physically superior to females. So by transitioning as a male to female, it is thought that the advantage carries over. A female to male transition, under the same assumption would not carry over an advantage since they would be joining the physically superior division as it were. Though I'm sure if a FTM was conquering their division then it would be put down to enhanced Testosterone or something. This is not from a sexist or transphobic pov, just an explanation why it is only focused on the male to female aspect and female to male does not get brought up (much) Not a personal dig at you but crazy that it takes 26 lines to explain what my daughter knew at 3yrs old. Men are stronger and faster than women. " To be fair that is just me in general anyway  I can take up a whole page to say something that didn't really need more than 5 words | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? " The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? I don't know the full extent of the ins and outs of transitioning. So I won't comment on that particular thing but in terms of the difference Human Males generally (always exceptions) are naturally (no enhancements or medication changes) are physically superior to females. So by transitioning as a male to female, it is thought that the advantage carries over. A female to male transition, under the same assumption would not carry over an advantage since they would be joining the physically superior division as it were. Though I'm sure if a FTM was conquering their division then it would be put down to enhanced Testosterone or something. This is not from a sexist or transphobic pov, just an explanation why it is only focused on the male to female aspect and female to male does not get brought up (much) Not a personal dig at you but crazy that it takes 26 lines to explain what my daughter knew at 3yrs old. Men are stronger and faster than women. " SOME men are stronger and faster than SOME women. SOME are not. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Emma Hilton, biologist, has researched this matter extensively. Have a look at her on Twitter. There is no fair way for a biological man to compete alongside women in professional sports. Have a female category and an "open to all" category. Lots of people have studied it. Thankfully more and more professional athletes are starting to speak up too Sharron Davies was talking about it the other day. I don't see why people get so upset about it. No ones trying to invalidate someone's identity. Its just simply unfair.does this mean trans athletes needing to choose between their career and their transition ? They have a choice. They could compete on the category matching their biological sex. More choice than the female athletes who have to compete against them or walk away from a race or competition that they have trained their entire lives for." Definitely | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? I don't know the full extent of the ins and outs of transitioning. So I won't comment on that particular thing but in terms of the difference Human Males generally (always exceptions) are naturally (no enhancements or medication changes) are physically superior to females. So by transitioning as a male to female, it is thought that the advantage carries over. A female to male transition, under the same assumption would not carry over an advantage since they would be joining the physically superior division as it were. Though I'm sure if a FTM was conquering their division then it would be put down to enhanced Testosterone or something. This is not from a sexist or transphobic pov, just an explanation why it is only focused on the male to female aspect and female to male does not get brought up (much) Not a personal dig at you but crazy that it takes 26 lines to explain what my daughter knew at 3yrs old. Men are stronger and faster than women. SOME men are stronger and faster than SOME women. SOME are not." And when we're talking about professional athletes? Nonsense. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you." So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Yeah just the same as Usain Bolt has genetics that could be any white man in the 100m Sprint That's disingenuous. Yes he's fastest. But only by hundredths of a second. Not tens of seconds like it would be if he competed against biological females. a Usain Bolt on HRT for 5 years, I know wouldn’t be anywhere near as fast After 5 years he would be too old to compete. This is the part you're glossing over. Those effects can take up to a decade. The people competing are doing so sometimes less than a year after starting hormones. So I'm sorry but you're completely wrong on this one. How can you be so certain? Are you a research biologist? Or have you just looked some stuff up on the Internet? I've never been that certain about new information." I’ve undertaken HRT and know how it’s altered my body | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. " The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media." I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If other issues that affected female athletes got as many mainstream headlines there might be some progress towards equality. Like the inequality in status, coverage, funding, under-representation of female coaches and directors, and the shocking levels of systemic abuse and lack of safeguarding. Also worth noting sport didn't always used to be segregated by gender. There are numerous instances where all used to compete together, until women started to beat the men at which point the governing bodies banned them from competition and major events and segregated the sports. There is some way to go to find a solutions that's fair and inclusive for all, but too many of the conversations lack any good faith towards finding a solution and being inclusive, and are just drumming up headlines that are fostering anti trans sentiment. I dont, for example, see a lot of people defending trans community on a day where the government excluded trans people from the new laws banning conversion therapy." which sports were these? I'd also suggest that these stories drum up the perception of anti trans sentiment whereas I have seen posters be pro trans yet hold a different view on sports specifically. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"If other issues that affected female athletes got as many mainstream headlines there might be some progress towards equality. Like the inequality in status, coverage, funding, under-representation of female coaches and directors, and the shocking levels of systemic abuse and lack of safeguarding. Also worth noting sport didn't always used to be segregated by gender. There are numerous instances where all used to compete together, until women started to beat the men at which point the governing bodies banned them from competition and major events and segregated the sports. There is some way to go to find a solutions that's fair and inclusive for all, but too many of the conversations lack any good faith towards finding a solution and being inclusive, and are just drumming up headlines that are fostering anti trans sentiment. I dont, for example, see a lot of people defending trans community on a day where the government excluded trans people from the new laws banning conversion therapy." Feel free to start threads on those. This one was about sporting categories. Not sure anybody has said anything g anti trans. The discussion has mostly been about how to make participation and competition fair to all competitors / participants | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life." I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. " first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"With all this bickering over unfair advantages is it time to just ban all sporting categories based on age and gender and disability. No more under 21s football, no more men's and women's cycling, athletics or rugby. Just throw everyone in the same pot. Men women disabled and trans all fighting to get into the same team ... One England Rugby team with men women and trans all playing together..." No | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman " My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"With all this bickering over unfair advantages is it time to just ban all sporting categories based on age and gender and disability. No more under 21s football, no more men's and women's cycling, athletics or rugby. Just throw everyone in the same pot. Men women disabled and trans all fighting to get into the same team ... One England Rugby team with men women and trans all playing together..." To bust your bubble the most physical and athletic people will still win and would be heavily dominated by men. Categories are there for a reason. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Do insurance companies take trans into consideration?" As far as I'm aware, they don't x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches?" what defines a female ? I know this can sound like a dick question that always is raised but I found i struggled with this when I tried to define it carefully. Especially when then trying to show I then use it correct with the people I meet ... | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Do insurance companies take trans into consideration? As far as I'm aware, they don't x" can't do gender specific rates anyway. So no. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman " It's down to chromosomes and internal sex organs XX is the most common form of female. I assume nothing. I think people can live how they want to live, just do not attempt to take away others hard fought for and won rights. If you were born a man you have an advantage over females in sport. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
 | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman It's down to chromosomes and internal sex organs XX is the most common form of female. I assume nothing. I think people can live how they want to live, just do not attempt to take away others hard fought for and won rights. If you were born a man you have an advantage over females in sport. " apologies. But when you said entitled men, that led me to thinking that you saw trans women as being men. Not a different group of people who may be fighting for what they see as their rights. Btw sex organs and XX chromosomes aren't perfectly correlated (if I understand this right). It's 1 in 80,000 that have female generalia but XY so infrequent for sure. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches?what defines a female ? I know this can sound like a dick question that always is raised but I found i struggled with this when I tried to define it carefully. Especially when then trying to show I then use it correct with the people I meet ..." A female is the sex that produces the large gamete (ova, a sex cell) that fuses with the male gamete during sexual reproduction. Not all females can produce eggs. Not all females can reproduce. But only females can do these things. Unfortunately egg production and giving birth are not classed as sports or we could at least be sure of having these activities to ourselves. If you actually have to take time out of your day to explain to someone (other than on the internet) what a woman is, then I would advise walking away and doing something more productive with your time like pairing odd socks. Until a nano second ago, anyone with eyes in their head could tell you what a man or woman is without needing to look for a biological or scientific definition. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"By the look of this thread they should ban all sport, never mind just the categories "No-one has yet objected to mixed gender wheelchair sports that include able bodied people, so I'm going to carry on sinking baskets and crashing into people at high speed | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches?what defines a female ? I know this can sound like a dick question that always is raised but I found i struggled with this when I tried to define it carefully. Especially when then trying to show I then use it correct with the people I meet ... A female is the sex that produces the large gamete (ova, a sex cell) that fuses with the male gamete during sexual reproduction. Not all females can produce eggs. Not all females can reproduce. But only females can do these things. Unfortunately egg production and giving birth are not classed as sports or we could at least be sure of having these activities to ourselves. If you actually have to take time out of your day to explain to someone (other than on the internet) what a woman is, then I would advise walking away and doing something more productive with your time like pairing odd socks. Until a nano second ago, anyone with eyes in their head could tell you what a man or woman is without needing to look for a biological or scientific definition." You should have been a biology teacher x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches?what defines a female ? I know this can sound like a dick question that always is raised but I found i struggled with this when I tried to define it carefully. Especially when then trying to show I then use it correct with the people I meet ... A female is the sex that produces the large gamete (ova, a sex cell) that fuses with the male gamete during sexual reproduction. Not all females can produce eggs. Not all females can reproduce. But only females can do these things. Unfortunately egg production and giving birth are not classed as sports or we could at least be sure of having these activities to ourselves. If you actually have to take time out of your day to explain to someone (other than on the internet) what a woman is, then I would advise walking away and doing something more productive with your time like pairing odd socks. Until a nano second ago, anyone with eyes in their head could tell you what a man or woman is without needing to look for a biological or scientific definition. You should have been a biology teacher x " Got to say, I've learned a lot in the muffsters explanation. I'm impressed x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"By the look of this thread they should ban all sport, never mind just the categories
No-one has yet objected to mixed gender wheelchair sports that include able bodied people, so I'm going to carry on sinking baskets and crashing into people at high speed "I love this idea actually | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches?what defines a female ? I know this can sound like a dick question that always is raised but I found i struggled with this when I tried to define it carefully. Especially when then trying to show I then use it correct with the people I meet ... A female is the sex that produces the large gamete (ova, a sex cell) that fuses with the male gamete during sexual reproduction. Not all females can produce eggs. Not all females can reproduce. But only females can do these things. Unfortunately egg production and giving birth are not classed as sports or we could at least be sure of having these activities to ourselves. If you actually have to take time out of your day to explain to someone (other than on the internet) what a woman is, then I would advise walking away and doing something more productive with your time like pairing odd socks. Until a nano second ago, anyone with eyes in their head could tell you what a man or woman is without needing to look for a biological or scientific definition. You should have been a biology teacher x " No chance now. Lost too many brain cells arguing about this bollocks. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches?what defines a female ? I know this can sound like a dick question that always is raised but I found i struggled with this when I tried to define it carefully. Especially when then trying to show I then use it correct with the people I meet ... A female is the sex that produces the large gamete (ova, a sex cell) that fuses with the male gamete during sexual reproduction. Not all females can produce eggs. Not all females can reproduce. But only females can do these things. Unfortunately egg production and giving birth are not classed as sports or we could at least be sure of having these activities to ourselves. If you actually have to take time out of your day to explain to someone (other than on the internet) what a woman is, then I would advise walking away and doing something more productive with your time like pairing odd socks. Until a nano second ago, anyone with eyes in their head could tell you what a man or woman is without needing to look for a biological or scientific definition. You should have been a biology teacher x Got to say, I've learned a lot in the muffsters explanation. I'm impressed x"Us ladies know more about the reproductive system than any man though | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"By the look of this thread they should ban all sport, never mind just the categories
No-one has yet objected to mixed gender wheelchair sports that include able bodied people, so I'm going to carry on sinking baskets and crashing into people at high speed
I love this idea actually "Come and join in! I play mixed gender, mixed disability + AB wheelchair sports every week. We care not a jot about what's between your legs, in your nucleii or whether you have a full complement of limbs. Tis marvellous fun! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches?what defines a female ? I know this can sound like a dick question that always is raised but I found i struggled with this when I tried to define it carefully. Especially when then trying to show I then use it correct with the people I meet ... A female is the sex that produces the large gamete (ova, a sex cell) that fuses with the male gamete during sexual reproduction. Not all females can produce eggs. Not all females can reproduce. But only females can do these things. Unfortunately egg production and giving birth are not classed as sports or we could at least be sure of having these activities to ourselves. If you actually have to take time out of your day to explain to someone (other than on the internet) what a woman is, then I would advise walking away and doing something more productive with your time like pairing odd socks. Until a nano second ago, anyone with eyes in their head could tell you what a man or woman is without needing to look for a biological or scientific definition. You should have been a biology teacher x No chance now. Lost too many brain cells arguing about this bollocks." Had another thought myself about something but I'll save it for another time | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"It's interesting as it's been on these fora quite a lot recently and I'm pretty sure there have been no links to any research or studies posted. One wonders why it is a non issue for transitioning to male sport categories but is considered an issue when transitioning to female categories. If there really is no legacy benefit of biology or physiology post transition why does it only seem to happen when transitioning to female? The shit is being stirred about transitioning to female because that is where the gender critical movement are currently concentrating their action. The bigger picture is not about sport, it is not about trans people, it is about right wing movements that ultimately wish to outlaw all behaviour that they do not agree with. If you follow the money trails, follow the organisational links, they always lead to an aggregate of evangelical religion, misogyny, white supremacy, republicanism and fascism. They are the people who take Trump as a figurehead, that think Putin is someone admirable, that believe that their god (or rather their twisted take on their god) gives them the right to persecute all others. Make no mistake, these people do not have the wellbeing of women in mind. They have had enormous success now in turning trans people, who basically just want to be allowed to get on with their lives without being persecuted, into an "evil empire" that silences them. If we are so powerful, how is it that they are on the front pages of the newspapers every other day? And yes, these people DO want everyone trans to not even exist. Yes the issue of trans people in sport is complicated. But it is also almost non-existant. Because basically, most of us don't even dare try to take part in sports. You want a sports scandal? Look at coaches abusing young athletes. Look at racism. Look at doping. It's far easier though to just get angry at the paper tiger of trans gender folk. No need then to think about who is actually manipulating you. So the young female swimmers who were brave enough to speak out against the inclusion of a biological man in their swimming competition are actually part of a global, right wing, oppressive gender critical, transphobic movement? They're not at all concerned about women's sports even though they are female athletes? Okey doke. The reason this has caught so much traction is that it is so unfair. The reason that it has caught so much traction is that every right wing newspaper in the UK and the USA have been going at it non-stop for the last five years, to make everyone angry about it. At no point have I said that there is no issue in fairness of competition, but the issues are a damn sight more complex than you have been brainwashed to believe. We live in a complicated world. When anybody tells you that all the problems are caused by a minority group who have zero political power, who are used as the punchbags of society, who basically would just like to get on with living in peace, then you should know that you are being manipulated. If you are that worried about fairness of competition, then maybe start by looking at social inequality that prevents many people from even being able to get onto the bottom rung in sports. Look at kids who don't get enough to eat so never grow properly. Look at young women who endure sexual abuse from teachers and trainers otherwise they will be denied team places. There have been two, maybe three transgender athletes involved in top level competitions in the twenty odd years since the current rules were set - funnily enough there is no tidal wave of men getting their bollocks chopped off and enduring six months of post-surgical pain just to be able to take part in a competition where they then know for a certainty any possible success will cause them to be persecuted by the media. I can assure you I'm not brain washed. I've never seen anything so clearly before in my life. I'm not brainwashed either. Biological women should not be competing in sport against Biological men. I'm not right wing, its another group of entitled men wanting to dominate women again. Go compete against other trans people. Leave womens sport alone. first off: define biological women. Secondly I'm assuming you don't recognise a trans woman as a woman My answer, not the poster who you have actually asked but anyway.. An adult human female No I don't recognise them as women. Shall I start the bonfire for you or did you bring your own matches?what defines a female ? I know this can sound like a dick question that always is raised but I found i struggled with this when I tried to define it carefully. Especially when then trying to show I then use it correct with the people I meet ... A female is the sex that produces the large gamete (ova, a sex cell) that fuses with the male gamete during sexual reproduction. Not all females can produce eggs. Not all females can reproduce. But only females can do these things. Unfortunately egg production and giving birth are not classed as sports or we could at least be sure of having these activities to ourselves. If you actually have to take time out of your day to explain to someone (other than on the internet) what a woman is, then I would advise walking away and doing something more productive with your time like pairing odd socks. Until a nano second ago, anyone with eyes in their head could tell you what a man or woman is without needing to look for a biological or scientific definition. You should have been a biology teacher x No chance now. Lost too many brain cells arguing about this bollocks. Had another thought myself about something but I'll save it for another time "Amen, sister it's too tough for a Friday evening. . .  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The real question however is…. Can we blame any of this fuss on Brexit? "Yes. There's a lack of some replacement sports wheelchair parts as a consequence. Very irritating. I had to put grey tyres on instead of black | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The real question however is…. Can we blame any of this fuss on Brexit? "having gender neutral insurance rates is the EUs fault irrc. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? " I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court." a free diving record was (maybe is) held by a women. And keepy uppies. But endurance is what originally sprang to mind. Irrc that also is one where times improve with age. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court.a free diving record was (maybe is) held by a women. And keepy uppies. But endurance is what originally sprang to mind. Irrc that also is one where times improve with age. " So let's be honest, not in many sports are women achieving more than men? It grieves me to write that, because I am THE most competitive person in the world and I fucking hate being beaten by a guy. Hate it. But I can't deny facts when it comes to sporting records. *Wonders if wheelchair keepy-uppy could be a thing* | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court." Depends what people consider sport, most people tend to think almost exclusively contact sports. Some sports simply suit certain bodies, forms, and frames better than others. Things like no/limited contact team sports like football (and other team based sports) which are often just as much about skill than pure physical dominance. I think women could potentially stand up to the men on this if equal training priority was given to them. Rugby not quite as much in comparison due to its focus on physical and impact contact. Most things that are pure and intense physical sports in most cases men are going to be better built. Not all men obviously but making things equal, opportunity, training, diet etc between men and women, the men will overshadow the women. As a man, I am unable to claim I am stronger than women because there will be women that are stronger and just physically superior to me. If I were to train and have the equal lifestyle to them, my own biological advantage would be just that, an advantage and 9 times out of 10 I would out perform them. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court.a free diving record was (maybe is) held by a women. And keepy uppies. But endurance is what originally sprang to mind. Irrc that also is one where times improve with age. So let's be honest, not in many sports are women achieving more than men? It grieves me to write that, because I am THE most competitive person in the world and I fucking hate being beaten by a guy. Hate it. But I can't deny facts when it comes to sporting records. *Wonders if wheelchair keepy-uppy could be a thing* "you'd bruise your foot. Stick to a football!
It is interesting to look at what gives an advantage to one sex. Is it T or something correlates to T. Is it skeleton and other physical features that tend not to change after reducing T.
I have no real answers here, just questions. I'm a curious bugger who likes poking ideas. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court. Depends what people consider sport, most people tend to think almost exclusively contact sports. Some sports simply suit certain bodies, forms, and frames better than others. Things like no/limited contact team sports like football (and other team based sports) which are often just as much about skill than pure physical dominance. I think women could potentially stand up to the men on this if equal training priority was given to them. Rugby not quite as much in comparison due to its focus on physical and impact contact. Most things that are pure and intense physical sports in most cases men are going to be better built. Not all men obviously but making things equal, opportunity, training, diet etc between men and women, the men will overshadow the women. As a man, I am unable to claim I am stronger than women because there will be women that are stronger and just physically superior to me. If I were to train and have the equal lifestyle to them, my own biological advantage would be just that, an advantage and 9 times out of 10 I would out perform them. " It would be a very interesting experiment to train men and women with the requisite skill in the same way, with the same level of nutrition and see what happens. Heaven knows if such crazy things will ever happen in our gender unequal and gender obsessed world, eh? I work with students who come from countries where inequalities are still enshrined in law, so we (the world) have a LONG way to go unfortunately. I was that little girl who wanted to be a footballer but at the age of 11, was told that I could no longer train with and play with the boys (FA rules) but there were no girl's teams and so that was the end of my playing career. At school, boys in my form wanted me to play for our form in the school competition but it was not permitted (age 12+). They instead HAD to pick boys who didn't like football, didn't want to play football while the likes of me sat and watched. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court." Gymnastics maybe? Not sure but the male and female body are just build different and for some reason people find it difficult to accept. Woman want the same wages as men which will never happen, money depends on the popularity of the sport. I think womans football reached its peak in the 1920's attracting around 50k viewers and thats at it's peak nothing compared to the millions mens football attracts. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court. Gymnastics maybe? Not sure but the male and female body are just build different and for some reason people find it difficult to accept. Woman want the same wages as men which will never happen, money depends on the popularity of the sport. I think womans football reached its peak in the 1920's attracting around 50k viewers and thats at it's peak nothing compared to the millions mens football attracts." Do you know why women's football declined after the 1920s?? I'll give you a clue, MEN decided it wasn't ladylike and banned women's teams from playing on FA soil. If women had been allowed to continue to play football, we might well be seeing a completely different situation with regards to mens vs women's football crowds etc. I'm afraid you can't suggest that the women's game is inherently not as good as the men's, when women STILL don't have equality of opportunity to devote to themselves to playing full time for a wage. Yes, there's professional leagues and salaries now, but those pro salaries are around £30k p/a and they are extremely recent in their availability. Throughout the 20th century, women have been dissuaded or actively banned from participating in many sports. It's not that women cannot play the sports well, but if there's no place for you to train, rules banning your participation and "society" frowning at you donning boxing gloves or throwing a funny shaped ball, how can you expect women to be performing at the same sort of level as men? Give WOMEN good century and a bit of development of a professional league (like the men have had) and then let's revisit our views, eh? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court. Gymnastics maybe? Not sure but the male and female body are just build different and for some reason people find it difficult to accept. Woman want the same wages as men which will never happen, money depends on the popularity of the sport. I think womans football reached its peak in the 1920's attracting around 50k viewers and thats at it's peak nothing compared to the millions mens football attracts. Do you know why women's football declined after the 1920s?? I'll give you a clue, MEN decided it wasn't ladylike and banned women's teams from playing on FA soil. If women had been allowed to continue to play football, we might well be seeing a completely different situation with regards to mens vs women's football crowds etc. I'm afraid you can't suggest that the women's game is inherently not as good as the men's, when women STILL don't have equality of opportunity to devote to themselves to playing full time for a wage. Yes, there's professional leagues and salaries now, but those pro salaries are around £30k p/a and they are extremely recent in their availability. Throughout the 20th century, women have been dissuaded or actively banned from participating in many sports. It's not that women cannot play the sports well, but if there's no place for you to train, rules banning your participation and "society" frowning at you donning boxing gloves or throwing a funny shaped ball, how can you expect women to be performing at the same sort of level as men? Give WOMEN good century and a bit of development of a professional league (like the men have had) and then let's revisit our views, eh?" | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court." Artistic activities like gymnastics, which require / utilise flexibility. Women naturally have more flexibility than men. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court. Artistic activities like gymnastics, which require / utilise flexibility. Women naturally have more flexibility than men. " Hmmmm. Men's and women's gymnastics are not assessed in the same way. Mens seems to reward strength and power more, whereas womens seems to reward grace and elegance more (I actually don't "get" the twiddly bits that women do on the beam etc. Just looks daft to me, but that's just me). I look at male ballet dancers and I see just as much flexibility and grace. The difference is that male ballet dancers are not trained to acquire huge muscle mass, which is what seems to be true for male gymnasts. If male and female gymnasts were trained in the same way, for the same styles and rules of gymnastics, would women still prevail? I don't know. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court. Artistic activities like gymnastics, which require / utilise flexibility. Women naturally have more flexibility than men. Hmmmm. Men's and women's gymnastics are not assessed in the same way. Mens seems to reward strength and power more, whereas womens seems to reward grace and elegance more (I actually don't "get" the twiddly bits that women do on the beam etc. Just looks daft to me, but that's just me). I look at male ballet dancers and I see just as much flexibility and grace. The difference is that male ballet dancers are not trained to acquire huge muscle mass, which is what seems to be true for male gymnasts. If male and female gymnasts were trained in the same way, for the same styles and rules of gymnastics, would women still prevail? I don't know. " Oestradiol doesn’t allow you to gain huge muscle mass testosterone does | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Can't people just not accept that men are better at some sports and woman at others? I'm all for equality but have you ever seen womans football? Surely you can't expect them to compeat among the likes of messi and ronaldo? I'm interested to know in which sports women outperform men? Ultra running can be one. Discus doesn't count because although the women throw further, they throw a lighter discus (1kg vs 2kg for men). Any others? I'm asking from the perspective of a woman who tries her damnedest to beat the guys she comes up again on court. Artistic activities like gymnastics, which require / utilise flexibility. Women naturally have more flexibility than men. Hmmmm. Men's and women's gymnastics are not assessed in the same way. Mens seems to reward strength and power more, whereas womens seems to reward grace and elegance more (I actually don't "get" the twiddly bits that women do on the beam etc. Just looks daft to me, but that's just me). I look at male ballet dancers and I see just as much flexibility and grace. The difference is that male ballet dancers are not trained to acquire huge muscle mass, which is what seems to be true for male gymnasts. If male and female gymnasts were trained in the same way, for the same styles and rules of gymnastics, would women still prevail? I don't know. Oestradiol doesn’t allow you to gain huge muscle mass testosterone does" I know. But male ballet dancers have the testosterone, they just train in a way that pushes greater flexibility. They don't go in the gym with the aim to build massive muscles (which they could do, if they chose to). That's my point - men don't always have to have large muscle mass. Just look at Me KC and compare him to me. I have massively larger muscles compared to him. I'm female, he's male. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
