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The making of men
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
Good morning my lovelies. I’ve woken up this morning feeling thoughtful and wanted to hear some of your thoughts too! So I’m thinking about masculinities and what about masculinities has made you into the man you are today? And have these ideas of masculinities had a positive impact on you? Do you project these onto others- do you want other men or boys to be like that?
Women- what are your thoughts on different masculinities? Broad I know but I welcome your opinions.
Please NO ARGUING. I just want a space to discuss masculinities and their effects. Maybe even to validate others. And if you read this and don’t want to comment- YOU, have a good day!  |
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Masculinity was never an issue. I grew up surrounded by women which meant I could converse as an equal and not be guilty of any toxic traits.
At the same time I grew up in an environment surrounded by violence and had to be strong to avoid being sucked in and supportive and protective of those around me.
I was told by someone when I was 19 that I wasn't a real man because I'd never d*unk alcohol. My reply was that a real man didn't need to follow the crowd. 38 years later and I still have never tasted alcohol and still don't follow the crowd.
I don't blow smoke up backsides, I don't kiss arse and I refuse to validate anyone who requires that.
I don't need to measure my dick against others every day either.
I treat everyone as an equal and those who know me also know I can and will be there for them when needed without having to advertise it. |
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"Masculinity was never an issue. I grew up surrounded by women which meant I could converse as an equal and not be guilty of any toxic traits.
At the same time I grew up in an environment surrounded by violence and had to be strong to avoid being sucked in and supportive and protective of those around me.
I was told by someone when I was 19 that I wasn't a real man because I'd never d*unk alcohol. My reply was that a real man didn't need to follow the crowd. 38 years later and I still have never tasted alcohol and still don't follow the crowd.
I don't blow smoke up backsides, I don't kiss arse and I refuse to validate anyone who requires that.
I don't need to measure my dick against others every day either.
I treat everyone as an equal and those who know me also know I can and will be there for them when needed without having to advertise it. "
This, although I do sometimes drink but not often.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
It is not something I overthink
It's not something I strive for
I'm just me
I am of the opinion that if you have to strive 'to be' that isn't you, it is a reflection of what you feel is expected |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Thank you for these responses!
I am going to reply but just a thought that came to me. I saw a lecture once and the lady, Cynthia Enloe, was talking about how societies are invested in specific types of masculinity and we reproduce them. - Women (not all) too are invested in a certain idea of what it means to be a man and they reproduce that. Dads (not all) of course do this with their daughters too - project an idea of what a woman should be onto their children.
I have lots of thoughts on masculinities tbh so sorry for rambling on |
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By *ad NannaWoman
over a year ago
East London |
"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form."
I was just thinking how people see masculinity as a bad thing yet femininity is a good thing.
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"Thank you for these responses!
I am going to reply but just a thought that came to me. I saw a lecture once and the lady, Cynthia Enloe, was talking about how societies are invested in specific types of masculinity and we reproduce them. - Women (not all) too are invested in a certain idea of what it means to be a man and they reproduce that. Dads (not all) of course do this with their daughters too - project an idea of what a woman should be onto their children.
I have lots of thoughts on masculinities tbh so sorry for rambling on "
I'm a dad to 3 daughters.
There have been things I have struggled with in the past in regard to behaviours and who they associated with but overall a combination of good communication, fatherly advice rather than instruction and their own personal experiences mean they are all well rounded, strong independent young women. |
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"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form.
I was just thinking how people see masculinity as a bad thing yet femininity is a good thing.
"
Yes. Interesting…… |
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By *aitonelMan
over a year ago
Liverpool |
"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form.
I was just thinking how people see masculinity as a bad thing yet femininity is a good thing.
"
Partially because masculine/men have been on top for so long and pushed down femininity (even in themselves), that now the tables have turned and people are pushing back against that type of oppression it's become anything that even hints at being masculine is bad.
Again it comes down to extremes, and extremists. Zero balance and always absolutes. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
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To me it means relying on no one else but myself. It’s nice to have people to rely on but as I man I don’t think you should. When it comes down to it all you have is your self. There’s no safety net |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Masculinity was never an issue. I grew up surrounded by women which meant I could converse as an equal and not be guilty of any toxic traits.
At the same time I grew up in an environment surrounded by violence and had to be strong to avoid being sucked in and supportive and protective of those around me.
I was told by someone when I was 19 that I wasn't a real man because I'd never d*unk alcohol. My reply was that a real man didn't need to follow the crowd. 38 years later and I still have never tasted alcohol and still don't follow the crowd.
I don't blow smoke up backsides, I don't kiss arse and I refuse to validate anyone who requires that.
I don't need to measure my dick against others every day either.
I treat everyone as an equal and those who know me also know I can and will be there for them when needed without having to advertise it. "
Thank you for this wonderful bite of reality! I think lots of things here are important. A fantastic example of what it means to be a man and not giving in to the pressures others impose on us to fit in. Thanks for sharing |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Masculinity was never an issue. I grew up surrounded by women which meant I could converse as an equal and not be guilty of any toxic traits.
At the same time I grew up in an environment surrounded by violence and had to be strong to avoid being sucked in and supportive and protective of those around me.
I was told by someone when I was 19 that I wasn't a real man because I'd never d*unk alcohol. My reply was that a real man didn't need to follow the crowd. 38 years later and I still have never tasted alcohol and still don't follow the crowd.
I don't blow smoke up backsides, I don't kiss arse and I refuse to validate anyone who requires that.
I don't need to measure my dick against others every day either.
I treat everyone as an equal and those who know me also know I can and will be there for them when needed without having to advertise it.
This, although I do sometimes drink but not often. "
I think drinking culture has a big part to play in lots of examples of masculinities around the world. I’d imagine especially in Europe and the Americas. Interesting. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"As a mother of a man I definitely taught him to treat women as equals. I worked hard to make sure he doesn't use weaponised incompetence but this one has been really hard."
It’s really interesting I imagine as the mother of a man. I suppose I think that some (not you) women want their sons to be the kinds of men that they themselves love. I am sure that you’re a fantastic mum and have raised a fantastic son. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"It is not something I overthink
It's not something I strive for
I'm just me
I am of the opinion that if you have to strive 'to be' that isn't you, it is a reflection of what you feel is expected"
Great point. I mean I’d argue that we aren’t really anything and so can be anything. Also you’re great. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I think there’s a lot of good things about good masculinity but there’s also a lot of bad misconception created by the previous generations.
Like the whole “man up” saying for example . It doesn’t surprise me a lot of men end up feeling like they can’t talk about their depression or struggles because it was instilled that it’s showing a weakness and that you need to just man up. I had a discussion with a guy about it recently, who opened up to me about his struggles and I just hugged him. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form."
Agree. I say masculinities because I am considering all the different forms impacted by class, region and race. For example me growing up as a middle class Black boy in North London with family from Jamaica had huge impacts on my ideas of masculinity. I think masculinities as they’ve evolved have generally seen more positively but yes the more toxic forms are the ones that people most often think about. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form.
Agree. I say masculinities because I am considering all the different forms impacted by class, region and race. For example me growing up as a middle class Black boy in North London with family from Jamaica had huge impacts on my ideas of masculinity. I think masculinities as they’ve evolved have generally seen more positively but yes the more toxic forms are the ones that people most often think about. "
Also you’re great pal! Bring back the pic! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Thank you for these responses!
I am going to reply but just a thought that came to me. I saw a lecture once and the lady, Cynthia Enloe, was talking about how societies are invested in specific types of masculinity and we reproduce them. - Women (not all) too are invested in a certain idea of what it means to be a man and they reproduce that. Dads (not all) of course do this with their daughters too - project an idea of what a woman should be onto their children.
I have lots of thoughts on masculinities tbh so sorry for rambling on
I'm a dad to 3 daughters.
There have been things I have struggled with in the past in regard to behaviours and who they associated with but overall a combination of good communication, fatherly advice rather than instruction and their own personal experiences mean they are all well rounded, strong independent young women. "
I’m sure they’re fantastic and you are too! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
"
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Good morning my lovelies. I’ve woken up this morning feeling thoughtful and wanted to hear some of your thoughts too! So I’m thinking about masculinities and what about masculinities has made you into the man you are today? And have these ideas of masculinities had a positive impact on you? Do you project these onto others- do you want other men or boys to be like that?
Women- what are your thoughts on different masculinities? Broad I know but I welcome your opinions.
Please NO ARGUING. I just want a space to discuss masculinities and their effects. Maybe even to validate others. And if you read this and don’t want to comment- YOU, have a good day! "
Could talk all day about male Masculinity but l will just say this ,manners and respect , please and thank you are 4 of the traits that l would always put first .The need not to bring crap into people's lives and not to take crap off others is fierce important.I don't drink , smoke or do drugs but l never let any of the above stop me in life , each to their own .The true definition of male Masculinity is what the opposite sex see in you or what they don't see in you , to be content together is to see it from both sides and both want the same thing , but l will never waver from Good manners or Respect , ever. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"To me it means relying on no one else but myself. It’s nice to have people to rely on but as I man I don’t think you should. When it comes down to it all you have is your self. There’s no safety net "
I think this is a really honest and true assessment of how masculinities can impact us. The idea that you only have yourself is one that I think we feel. When you’re upset, you should deal with that yourself and needing others is perhaps a sign of weakness etc. I do think you should know that it’s ok to lean on others, especially other men and I think we should more- to save one another. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I don't really see masculine and feminine qualities. I just see qualities.
I think men showing, what are considered to be, more feminine qualities can be ridiculed for that and women who show, what are considered, more masculine qualities can be called aggressive....
I think we're all just humans and have are range of qualities that can be attributed to any gender |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I think there’s a lot of good things about good masculinity but there’s also a lot of bad misconception created by the previous generations.
Like the whole “man up” saying for example . It doesn’t surprise me a lot of men end up feeling like they can’t talk about their depression or struggles because it was instilled that it’s showing a weakness and that you need to just man up. I had a discussion with a guy about it recently, who opened up to me about his struggles and I just hugged him."
Can I just say it’s so good to hear that he opened up to you and that you hugged him. I think so often as men, being vulnerable is so scary and to be received well when we’re vulnerable is so important. I like these thoughts. I think for men a lot of the fear surrounding discussions of feelings are mostly about other men not really women. And I really think that men being more affectionate towards one another is so important for support. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with? "
Sport can and has been the only place where everything is equal , other than Death itself , it's the greatest leveller of all time , it's where the humble guy can teach the arrogant guy where it's truly at , l love sport for that alone. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Good morning my lovelies. I’ve woken up this morning feeling thoughtful and wanted to hear some of your thoughts too! So I’m thinking about masculinities and what about masculinities has made you into the man you are today? And have these ideas of masculinities had a positive impact on you? Do you project these onto others- do you want other men or boys to be like that?
Women- what are your thoughts on different masculinities? Broad I know but I welcome your opinions.
Please NO ARGUING. I just want a space to discuss masculinities and their effects. Maybe even to validate others. And if you read this and don’t want to comment- YOU, have a good day! "
take extra Testosterone |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
Coming back to you all in a moment. Further thoughts to add:
As I said about being raised as a Black boy to a Jamaican family in north London, this shaped a lot of my original ideas about being a man. I struggled a lot being raised by women who projected toxic ideas of masculinity on me and being surrounded by boys at school that projected those same things too. Being emotional was hard. Being interested in things other than sports was hard. Not liking conflict was hard. Not wanting to be so sexual all the time and liking education was hard. Of course you eventually learn more about these ideas and can unlearn them and perform your masculinity however you want. I can be as flamboyant and as emotional as I want and I am. But I know that boys and men drown in these toxic ideas.
Of course I recognise that gender is not real and certainly not binary. But that’s not to say masculinities are not ideas that have real consequences. I’m interested in those consequences and how we can hopefully stop them having such horrible results for men and women too. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I think there’s a lot of good things about good masculinity but there’s also a lot of bad misconception created by the previous generations.
Like the whole “man up” saying for example . It doesn’t surprise me a lot of men end up feeling like they can’t talk about their depression or struggles because it was instilled that it’s showing a weakness and that you need to just man up. I had a discussion with a guy about it recently, who opened up to me about his struggles and I just hugged him.
Can I just say it’s so good to hear that he opened up to you and that you hugged him. I think so often as men, being vulnerable is so scary and to be received well when we’re vulnerable is so important. I like these thoughts. I think for men a lot of the fear surrounding discussions of feelings are mostly about other men not really women. And I really think that men being more affectionate towards one another is so important for support. "
We obviously were being intimate but besides the point, as I guess he really felt a bit shit at first thinking it’d bring down the mood and make me feel uncomfortable .
Which I thought was crazy and I felt extremely grateful to hear his story and that he felt he could open up to me about it and hopefully by talking about it, he’s slaying his demons and fears x
I am quite the carer type of girl, and I saw his fragility and that was beautiful to see x |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
It depends on a fellows age and his role in life. We go through changes and phases and recognise each stage as it is lived through. During each stage we are challenged with a variety of demands, physically and mentally. It's a constant evolvement until we reach the end of life.
Along the way we may be involved with more men and learn from them. Masculinity is then more complex. But a farmer may well spend his life in a remote valley and his masculinity is of a different order. Self reliant.
Some men may want machismo and seek it in dangerous work or crime.
Men built most of the modern world and continue to manage most of its infrastructures. Doing essential and risky work. For now, it's being stoic and biding ones time until the world rocks again and new things need to be done. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with? "
i enjoy changing room banter mickey taking practical jokes be that around guy mates or women iv not unlearned these lessons they made me a winner for a lot of my life the only negative iv got from it has been i don't know how to lose well but its made loyalty to those i include as family my main priority i fight for them no matter the cost to myself it defines me i must be the hero |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Good morning my lovelies. I’ve woken up this morning feeling thoughtful and wanted to hear some of your thoughts too! So I’m thinking about masculinities and what about masculinities has made you into the man you are today? And have these ideas of masculinities had a positive impact on you? Do you project these onto others- do you want other men or boys to be like that?
Women- what are your thoughts on different masculinities? Broad I know but I welcome your opinions.
Please NO ARGUING. I just want a space to discuss masculinities and their effects. Maybe even to validate others. And if you read this and don’t want to comment- YOU, have a good day!
Could talk all day about male Masculinity but l will just say this ,manners and respect , please and thank you are 4 of the traits that l would always put first .The need not to bring crap into people's lives and not to take crap off others is fierce important.I don't drink , smoke or do drugs but l never let any of the above stop me in life , each to their own .The true definition of male Masculinity is what the opposite sex see in you or what they don't see in you , to be content together is to see it from both sides and both want the same thing , but l will never waver from Good manners or Respect , ever."
I like these. The good manners and respect things especially. Can I ask, what do you mean when you say not to bring crap to others or take crap? Not that it’s bad, I think it’s good to know your worth and stand up for yourself. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I don't really see masculine and feminine qualities. I just see qualities.
I think men showing, what are considered to be, more feminine qualities can be ridiculed for that and women who show, what are considered, more masculine qualities can be called aggressive....
I think we're all just humans and have are range of qualities that can be attributed to any gender "
I absolutely agree with this 100%. But I think we generally do socialise people in gendered ways. That’s not us all (I don’t raise my daughter that way or am trying not to) but generally we do. And though I don’t think qualities like say leadership are innately male or any of that rubbish I do think we create a society that facilitates men and women becoming certain things. And I am interested in the consequences of those things. I know that being raised in those ways impacted the ways I navigated my first breakdown and I know that although I’ve unlearned things, in certain environments I still am aware of the consequences of not performing masculinity in a certain way. If that makes sense |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Coming back to you all in a moment. Further thoughts to add:
As I said about being raised as a Black boy to a Jamaican family in north London, this shaped a lot of my original ideas about being a man. I struggled a lot being raised by women who projected toxic ideas of masculinity on me and being surrounded by boys at school that projected those same things too. Being emotional was hard. Being interested in things other than sports was hard. Not liking conflict was hard. Not wanting to be so sexual all the time and liking education was hard. Of course you eventually learn more about these ideas and can unlearn them and perform your masculinity however you want. I can be as flamboyant and as emotional as I want and I am. But I know that boys and men drown in these toxic ideas.
Of course I recognise that gender is not real and certainly not binary. But that’s not to say masculinities are not ideas that have real consequences. I’m interested in those consequences and how we can hopefully stop them having such horrible results for men and women too. "
I think what you have written echos how society shapes masculinity and femininity, the pressure too conform to the expectations of our closest friends, family and society will always be a driver in one form or another.
If life was different for us here in the UK, let's say we lived to hunt, masculinity may be judged by power and strength, but would that be the end of the masculinity? Society might like the hunter to show generosity too, after all if the best hunter around didn't share what use is that person to society?
Society is changing how we expect people to socialise, work, date, eat and many other nuance's that masculinity is evolving in front of our eyes and I think it always will, with the younger generations considering the previous generations to be out of date and so the evolution continues.
Can individuals change their masculinity in step with a changing society completely, or do they suppress or fake their masculinity to suit the people they are with? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with?
Sport can and has been the only place where everything is equal , other than Death itself , it's the greatest leveller of all time , it's where the humble guy can teach the arrogant guy where it's truly at , l love sport for that alone."
Interesting. I see this. But I think sport also can create or nurture toxic traits too. In my experiences they’re reliant on homophobic and misogynistic beliefs - this isn’t to say it’s true of all men that participate in sport by the way. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Good morning my lovelies. I’ve woken up this morning feeling thoughtful and wanted to hear some of your thoughts too! So I’m thinking about masculinities and what about masculinities has made you into the man you are today? And have these ideas of masculinities had a positive impact on you? Do you project these onto others- do you want other men or boys to be like that?
Women- what are your thoughts on different masculinities? Broad I know but I welcome your opinions.
Please NO ARGUING. I just want a space to discuss masculinities and their effects. Maybe even to validate others. And if you read this and don’t want to comment- YOU, have a good day! take extra Testosterone "
Is this advice? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I think there’s a lot of good things about good masculinity but there’s also a lot of bad misconception created by the previous generations.
Like the whole “man up” saying for example . It doesn’t surprise me a lot of men end up feeling like they can’t talk about their depression or struggles because it was instilled that it’s showing a weakness and that you need to just man up. I had a discussion with a guy about it recently, who opened up to me about his struggles and I just hugged him.
Can I just say it’s so good to hear that he opened up to you and that you hugged him. I think so often as men, being vulnerable is so scary and to be received well when we’re vulnerable is so important. I like these thoughts. I think for men a lot of the fear surrounding discussions of feelings are mostly about other men not really women. And I really think that men being more affectionate towards one another is so important for support.
We obviously were being intimate but besides the point, as I guess he really felt a bit shit at first thinking it’d bring down the mood and make me feel uncomfortable .
Which I thought was crazy and I felt extremely grateful to hear his story and that he felt he could open up to me about it and hopefully by talking about it, he’s slaying his demons and fears x
I am quite the carer type of girl, and I saw his fragility and that was beautiful to see x "
I’m glad he had you. Hope he does slay those demons. X |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"It depends on a fellows age and his role in life. We go through changes and phases and recognise each stage as it is lived through. During each stage we are challenged with a variety of demands, physically and mentally. It's a constant evolvement until we reach the end of life.
Along the way we may be involved with more men and learn from them. Masculinity is then more complex. But a farmer may well spend his life in a remote valley and his masculinity is of a different order. Self reliant.
Some men may want machismo and seek it in dangerous work or crime.
Men built most of the modern world and continue to manage most of its infrastructures. Doing essential and risky work. For now, it's being stoic and biding ones time until the world rocks again and new things need to be done."
Some interesting points made here. Just want to firstly agree that masculinity can and does evolve over time in us. Our ideas about being a man or the qualities of men will change as we do. And some of us may even reject the idea of being a man completely.
I think it’s really interesting the ways men seek different things. I think we nurture the idea of risk taking in men. We say it’s good. We give some boys freedoms that we don’t girls. And I think we also put pressure on men to work to provide for themselves or for others and societal pressures and circumstances (class and/or race) can impact one’s ability to do that. Can push us into crime- a willingness to take risks to fulfill pressures?
Your post has made me think a lot. Thank you. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with? i enjoy changing room banter mickey taking practical jokes be that around guy mates or women iv not unlearned these lessons they made me a winner for a lot of my life the only negative iv got from it has been i don't know how to lose well but its made loyalty to those i include as family my main priority i fight for them no matter the cost to myself it defines me i must be the hero "
Winning is good. And so is loyalty. You’ll always be a hero in someone’s story. But don’t harm yourself to be. In the words of the wonderful Lauryn Hill- how you gon win when you ain’t right within. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form.
I was just thinking how people see masculinity as a bad thing yet femininity is a good thing.
Yes. Interesting……"
Wanted to come back to these thoughts if it’s ok to.
I feel as though the toxic forms of masculinities and femininities perhaps have different consequences and that’s why the difference in concern? I’m thinking masculinities in their most toxic forms have violent and fatal consequences for men but also women over the world in different ways to toxic forms of femininity. I don’t necessarily think femininities are good things, they’re exclusionary in many ways of other women and can create pressures on women to be what society won’t let them- thinking of Black women and working class women (and both). These three posts did make me think though and I thank you for them |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form.
I was just thinking how people see masculinity as a bad thing yet femininity is a good thing.
Yes. Interesting……
Wanted to come back to these thoughts if it’s ok to.
I feel as though the toxic forms of masculinities and femininities perhaps have different consequences and that’s why the difference in concern? I’m thinking masculinities in their most toxic forms have violent and fatal consequences for men but also women over the world in different ways to toxic forms of femininity. I don’t necessarily think femininities are good things, they’re exclusionary in many ways of other women and can create pressures on women to be what society won’t let them- thinking of Black women and working class women (and both). These three posts did make me think though and I thank you for them "
I don’t necessarily think femininities are always** good things
- sorry I had to add that correction |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"think what you have written echos how society shapes masculinity and femininity, the pressure too conform to the expectations of our closest friends, family and society will always be a driver in one form or another.
If life was different for us here in the UK, let's say we lived to hunt, masculinity may be judged by power and strength, but would that be the end of the masculinity? Society might like the hunter to show generosity too, after all if the best hunter around didn't share what use is that person to society?
Society is changing how we expect people to socialise, work, date, eat and many other nuance's that masculinity is evolving in front of our eyes and I think it always will, with the younger generations considering the previous generations to be out of date and so the evolution continues.
Can individuals change their masculinity in step with a changing society completely, or do they suppress or fake their masculinity to suit the people they are with?"
I think absolutely you’re right here about the evolution of masculinity. It’s fascinating to see. Toxic masculinities exist still in modern formats - it adapts to survive. Thinking about say - nice guys that prey on women. Thinking about how toxic masculinity comes in a suit as much as it doesn’t.
I do wonder though whether there’s much hope for us all or whether we’re doomed to let these more toxic forms of masculinity have such wretched consequences for so many.
Thanks for posting. Appreciate you. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't really see masculine and feminine qualities. I just see qualities.
I think men showing, what are considered to be, more feminine qualities can be ridiculed for that and women who show, what are considered, more masculine qualities can be called aggressive....
I think we're all just humans and have are range of qualities that can be attributed to any gender
I absolutely agree with this 100%. But I think we generally do socialise people in gendered ways. That’s not us all (I don’t raise my daughter that way or am trying not to) but generally we do. And though I don’t think qualities like say leadership are innately male or any of that rubbish I do think we create a society that facilitates men and women becoming certain things. And I am interested in the consequences of those things. I know that being raised in those ways impacted the ways I navigated my first breakdown and I know that although I’ve unlearned things, in certain environments I still am aware of the consequences of not performing masculinity in a certain way. If that makes sense "
Yes that makes sense and yes we, as a society, still socialise with male/female behaviour...almost to fit in and be accepted within the community.
Things are slowly changing I believe. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form.
I was just thinking how people see masculinity as a bad thing yet femininity is a good thing.
"
I'm not sure its a clear cut as that.
Telling a young girl that she needs to be more feminine or act like a lady is as toxic as telling a young boy to man up.
And tbf I think that's coming across more and more in society today.
They are outdated concepts from a time where very clear gender roles were required for survival which we are slowly evolving away from |
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We all have periods of weakness and darkness and we should never be afraid to talk about them due to some silly stereotypes.
If any guys are struggling out there and feel they have no one to talk to my DMs are open.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with?
Sport can and has been the only place where everything is equal , other than Death itself , it's the greatest leveller of all time , it's where the humble guy can teach the arrogant guy where it's truly at , l love sport for that alone.
Interesting. I see this. But I think sport also can create or nurture toxic traits too. In my experiences they’re reliant on homophobic and misogynistic beliefs - this isn’t to say it’s true of all men that participate in sport by the way. "
naaa thats just the in thing the cool view to have these days people dont realise its probly the opposite its about family mentality we are brothers in arms competing yes there are arguments yes there are the odd scuffle just like most brothers sibling rivalry is no different as for the homophobic stuff theres not many other walks of life where 30 to 40 men get in a shower or bath together once per week out of choice people confuse being in a competitive mindset and being tough with hating all things soft these days its all about HOT TAKES not the detail |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't really see masculine and feminine qualities. I just see qualities.
I think men showing, what are considered to be, more feminine qualities can be ridiculed for that and women who show, what are considered, more masculine qualities can be called aggressive....
I think we're all just humans and have are range of qualities that can be attributed to any gender "
|
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I was never happy about my need to crossdress as a young man.unfortunately it’s not a hobby or something you control as some may think. It’s a part of me, so as a young man I tried to suppress it.
So I did what a lot of TV’s do, joined the Army, boxed whilst I was in, rode motorbikes instead of driving a car, ran marathons, rock climbing basically I wanted to prove to my manliness to my peers, match up with them.
However It’s not that I was doing it and not enjoying it, knocking someone down on the canvas is fun, riding a motorbike is exciting, distance running is calming but I wonder if I didn’t have this need to dress, would I still get involved with overtly macho activities ?
However I now see myself as the whole man I don’t apologise for who or what I am. Eddie Izzard helped me understand it’s not women clothing it’s my clothes. To be honest walking down the street in a dress is still one of the most scariest and exciting things I enjoy doing.
So for me being a Man is now being comfortable with who you are, not apologising for it or making excuses. If others think your weird or less of a man, that’s their opinion and they’re welcome to it. I’m much more than a guy who occasionally dresses up and I now embrace both sides of my personality.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I don't really see masculine and feminine qualities. I just see qualities.
I think men showing, what are considered to be, more feminine qualities can be ridiculed for that and women who show, what are considered, more masculine qualities can be called aggressive....
I think we're all just humans and have are range of qualities that can be attributed to any gender
I absolutely agree with this 100%. But I think we generally do socialise people in gendered ways. That’s not us all (I don’t raise my daughter that way or am trying not to) but generally we do. And though I don’t think qualities like say leadership are innately male or any of that rubbish I do think we create a society that facilitates men and women becoming certain things. And I am interested in the consequences of those things. I know that being raised in those ways impacted the ways I navigated my first breakdown and I know that although I’ve unlearned things, in certain environments I still am aware of the consequences of not performing masculinity in a certain way. If that makes sense
Yes that makes sense and yes we, as a society, still socialise with male/female behaviour...almost to fit in and be accepted within the community.
Things are slowly changing I believe. "
The consequences of not being able to be our natural selves and live authentically, can, on a small scale, be quite frustrating, causing anger and sadness. On a larger scale can, I imagine, lead to anxiety, depression and other mental health issues. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The highest rates of suicide are males 18 to 35. Biggest cause of death among males below 45? Also suicide.
Clearly there is something really damaging in our current definitions of masculinity. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"We all have periods of weakness and darkness and we should never be afraid to talk about them due to some silly stereotypes.
If any guys are struggling out there and feel they have no one to talk to my DMs are open.
"
Thank you for this this is important |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with?
Sport can and has been the only place where everything is equal , other than Death itself , it's the greatest leveller of all time , it's where the humble guy can teach the arrogant guy where it's truly at , l love sport for that alone.
Interesting. I see this. But I think sport also can create or nurture toxic traits too. In my experiences they’re reliant on homophobic and misogynistic beliefs - this isn’t to say it’s true of all men that participate in sport by the way. naaa thats just the in thing the cool view to have these days people dont realise its probly the opposite its about family mentality we are brothers in arms competing yes there are arguments yes there are the odd scuffle just like most brothers sibling rivalry is no different as for the homophobic stuff theres not many other walks of life where 30 to 40 men get in a shower or bath together once per week out of choice people confuse being in a competitive mindset and being tough with hating all things soft these days its all about HOT TAKES not the detail "
Perhaps. I think there’s a sense of homoeroticism amongst groups of men and it doesn’t mean they can’t still be homophobic. In my opinion. But I hear your point. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I was never happy about my need to crossdress as a young man.unfortunately it’s not a hobby or something you control as some may think. It’s a part of me, so as a young man I tried to suppress it.
So I did what a lot of TV’s do, joined the Army, boxed whilst I was in, rode motorbikes instead of driving a car, ran marathons, rock climbing basically I wanted to prove to my manliness to my peers, match up with them.
However It’s not that I was doing it and not enjoying it, knocking someone down on the canvas is fun, riding a motorbike is exciting, distance running is calming but I wonder if I didn’t have this need to dress, would I still get involved with overtly macho activities ?
However I now see myself as the whole man I don’t apologise for who or what I am. Eddie Izzard helped me understand it’s not women clothing it’s my clothes. To be honest walking down the street in a dress is still one of the most scariest and exciting things I enjoy doing.
So for me being a Man is now being comfortable with who you are, not apologising for it or making excuses. If others think your weird or less of a man, that’s their opinion and they’re welcome to it. I’m much more than a guy who occasionally dresses up and I now embrace both sides of my personality. "
Beautiful beautiful beautiful. Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s also important to remember that though masculinities have often been so rigid for some, there have been people challenging it in their fashion, in their attitudes, in their behaviours for years, when it was dangerous to do so. I’m glad Eddie helped you be you. And I’m glad you are you. Thank you again for posting  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I don't really see masculine and feminine qualities. I just see qualities.
I think men showing, what are considered to be, more feminine qualities can be ridiculed for that and women who show, what are considered, more masculine qualities can be called aggressive....
I think we're all just humans and have are range of qualities that can be attributed to any gender
I absolutely agree with this 100%. But I think we generally do socialise people in gendered ways. That’s not us all (I don’t raise my daughter that way or am trying not to) but generally we do. And though I don’t think qualities like say leadership are innately male or any of that rubbish I do think we create a society that facilitates men and women becoming certain things. And I am interested in the consequences of those things. I know that being raised in those ways impacted the ways I navigated my first breakdown and I know that although I’ve unlearned things, in certain environments I still am aware of the consequences of not performing masculinity in a certain way. If that makes sense
Yes that makes sense and yes we, as a society, still socialise with male/female behaviour...almost to fit in and be accepted within the community.
Things are slowly changing I believe.
The consequences of not being able to be our natural selves and live authentically, can, on a small scale, be quite frustrating, causing anger and sadness. On a larger scale can, I imagine, lead to anxiety, depression and other mental health issues. "
Agree things are changing slowly.
But also yes! Thank you for this. The strain, I call it strain, of not being able to be yourself can lead to these things. Masculinity can certainly cause strain. I spoke to my therapist about the strain about not being honest with family about being poly and she said exactly the things you’ve said. Thank you |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
masculinities Is total bs
Take me for example
Yes I ware dress yes I ware make up yes I like to get fucked in the ass
But I still pull 500 sit up drop sets from 30kg in sets off a 100 like a true monster
What’s more masculinit than that |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The highest rates of suicide are males 18 to 35. Biggest cause of death among males below 45? Also suicide.
Clearly there is something really damaging in our current definitions of masculinity. "
Absolutely. And this is my thing. Though not for us all, for too many men that are constrained by ideas of masculinity. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with?
Sport can and has been the only place where everything is equal , other than Death itself , it's the greatest leveller of all time , it's where the humble guy can teach the arrogant guy where it's truly at , l love sport for that alone.
Interesting. I see this. But I think sport also can create or nurture toxic traits too. In my experiences they’re reliant on homophobic and misogynistic beliefs - this isn’t to say it’s true of all men that participate in sport by the way. naaa thats just the in thing the cool view to have these days people dont realise its probly the opposite its about family mentality we are brothers in arms competing yes there are arguments yes there are the odd scuffle just like most brothers sibling rivalry is no different as for the homophobic stuff theres not many other walks of life where 30 to 40 men get in a shower or bath together once per week out of choice people confuse being in a competitive mindset and being tough with hating all things soft these days its all about HOT TAKES not the detail
Perhaps. I think there’s a sense of homoeroticism amongst groups of men and it doesn’t mean they can’t still be homophobic. In my opinion. But I hear your point. "
woah woah woah there was no erotic nothing   |
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"The highest rates of suicide are males 18 to 35. Biggest cause of death among males below 45? Also suicide.
Clearly there is something really damaging in our current definitions of masculinity. "
They also use much more legal methods unfortunately. |
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"The highest rates of suicide are males 18 to 35. Biggest cause of death among males below 45? Also suicide.
Clearly there is something really damaging in our current definitions of masculinity.
They also use much more legal methods unfortunately."
Lethal* |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The problem with "masculinity" is not itself, but generally people only view it in its extreme form.
I was just thinking how people see masculinity as a bad thing yet femininity is a good thing.
Partially because masculine/men have been on top for so long and pushed down femininity (even in themselves), that now the tables have turned and people are pushing back against that type of oppression it's become anything that even hints at being masculine is bad.
Again it comes down to extremes, and extremists. Zero balance and always absolutes. "
Correction: a tiny minority of men, around %2 have been on top.
If %2 of women committed crime would you assume they were all criminals? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"The highest rates of suicide are males 18 to 35. Biggest cause of death among males below 45? Also suicide.
Clearly there is something really damaging in our current definitions of masculinity.
They also use much more legal methods unfortunately.
Lethal*"
Yes, it’s not that men attempt suicide more- how can we know? But definitely they use more lethal methods and are more likely to be successful in their attempts. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with?
Sport can and has been the only place where everything is equal , other than Death itself , it's the greatest leveller of all time , it's where the humble guy can teach the arrogant guy where it's truly at , l love sport for that alone.
Interesting. I see this. But I think sport also can create or nurture toxic traits too. In my experiences they’re reliant on homophobic and misogynistic beliefs - this isn’t to say it’s true of all men that participate in sport by the way. naaa thats just the in thing the cool view to have these days people dont realise its probly the opposite its about family mentality we are brothers in arms competing yes there are arguments yes there are the odd scuffle just like most brothers sibling rivalry is no different as for the homophobic stuff theres not many other walks of life where 30 to 40 men get in a shower or bath together once per week out of choice people confuse being in a competitive mindset and being tough with hating all things soft these days its all about HOT TAKES not the detail
Perhaps. I think there’s a sense of homoeroticism amongst groups of men and it doesn’t mean they can’t still be homophobic. In my opinion. But I hear your point. woah woah woah there was no erotic nothing "
Oh yeah, sure sure.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I spent my life in sport changing rooms plastered with signs saying Pain is only weakness leaving the body
fight for the man next to you at all costs
Winning isnt just a habit its a way of life
Winners never quit and quitters never win
My blood, my sweat, your tears
So id say that shaped me more than most things dunno if that answers the question
Thank you for sharing this. I think it’s true that these things shape us and though we can and usually do unlearn them and grow out of them, they do shape lots of our ideas. Sport in particular is huge for the traditional forms of masculinities. Do you feel like your ideas of being a man impact the kinds of men you surround yourself with?
Sport can and has been the only place where everything is equal , other than Death itself , it's the greatest leveller of all time , it's where the humble guy can teach the arrogant guy where it's truly at , l love sport for that alone.
Interesting. I see this. But I think sport also can create or nurture toxic traits too. In my experiences they’re reliant on homophobic and misogynistic beliefs - this isn’t to say it’s true of all men that participate in sport by the way. naaa thats just the in thing the cool view to have these days people dont realise its probly the opposite its about family mentality we are brothers in arms competing yes there are arguments yes there are the odd scuffle just like most brothers sibling rivalry is no different as for the homophobic stuff theres not many other walks of life where 30 to 40 men get in a shower or bath together once per week out of choice people confuse being in a competitive mindset and being tough with hating all things soft these days its all about HOT TAKES not the detail
Perhaps. I think there’s a sense of homoeroticism amongst groups of men and it doesn’t mean they can’t still be homophobic. In my opinion. But I hear your point. woah woah woah there was no erotic nothing
Oh yeah, sure sure. "
sorry girls no 40 man bumming sessions on my watch  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"masculinities Is total bs
Take me for example
Yes I ware dress yes I ware make up yes I like to get fucked in the ass
But I still pull 500 sit up drop sets from 30kg in sets off a 100 like a true monster
What’s more masculinit than that "
That many sit ups and drop sets sounds impressive |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The highest rates of suicide are males 18 to 35. Biggest cause of death among males below 45? Also suicide.
Clearly there is something really damaging in our current definitions of masculinity.
Absolutely. And this is my thing. Though not for us all, for too many men that are constrained by ideas of masculinity. "
Yes. We are bombarded from a young age now that simply having a penis makes us toxic horrible people. Many young men feel they dont have a place in society anymore.
Add to that the current dating market where 80% of the woman go for the same %20 of men. Then there's positive discrimination where women are considered more favourable hires. Not because they are better but because it looks better on an equality quota.
If you want a good example of this, head over to Google and search for "my wife shouts at me" and you'll get suggestions for how you can stop it and what you may have done to make her shout at you. Then google "my husband shouts at me" first results will all be about domestic abuse and a string of numbers for shelters.
Men are finally waking up though. We get a raw deal and no one cares. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The highest rates of suicide are males 18 to 35. Biggest cause of death among males below 45? Also suicide.
Clearly there is something really damaging in our current definitions of masculinity.
Absolutely. And this is my thing. Though not for us all, for too many men that are constrained by ideas of masculinity.
Yes. We are bombarded from a young age now that simply having a penis makes us toxic horrible people. Many young men feel they dont have a place in society anymore.
Add to that the current dating market where 80% of the woman go for the same %20 of men. Then there's positive discrimination where women are considered more favourable hires. Not because they are better but because it looks better on an equality quota.
If you want a good example of this, head over to Google and search for "my wife shouts at me" and you'll get suggestions for how you can stop it and what you may have done to make her shout at you. Then google "my husband shouts at me" first results will all be about domestic abuse and a string of numbers for shelters.
Men are finally waking up though. We get a raw deal and no one cares."
The current dating market?,Equality quotas?,Bombarded from a young age?What nonsense are you speaking? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The videos from the 2021 international conference on men's issues are the available on tinternet. Speakers are both men and women. Some really good stuff on there.
|
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"The highest rates of suicide are males 18 to 35. Biggest cause of death among males below 45? Also suicide.
Clearly there is something really damaging in our current definitions of masculinity.
Absolutely. And this is my thing. Though not for us all, for too many men that are constrained by ideas of masculinity.
Yes. We are bombarded from a young age now that simply having a penis makes us toxic horrible people. Many young men feel they dont have a place in society anymore.
Add to that the current dating market where 80% of the woman go for the same %20 of men. Then there's positive discrimination where women are considered more favourable hires. Not because they are better but because it looks better on an equality quota.
If you want a good example of this, head over to Google and search for "my wife shouts at me" and you'll get suggestions for how you can stop it and what you may have done to make her shout at you. Then google "my husband shouts at me" first results will all be about domestic abuse and a string of numbers for shelters.
Men are finally waking up though. We get a raw deal and no one cares.
The current dating market?,Equality quotas?,Bombarded from a young age?What nonsense are you speaking?"
Positive discrimination and equality quotas have been a thing for many years especially in relation to religious beliefs. |
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