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Gary McKinnon The Hacker Not To Be Extradited
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"McKinnon the Brit who hacked into US systems will not be extradited. He will possibly face charges in this country.
I applaud this decision. "
they were explaining that it may be possible to have the charges tried here via video link and for him to serve any sentence here.....
so as long as he is charged and trailed then I have no problems..... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"McKinnon the Brit who hacked into US systems will not be extradited. He will possibly face charges in this country.
I applaud this decision.
they were explaining that it may be possible to have the charges tried here via video link and for him to serve any sentence here.....
so as long as he is charged and trailed then I have no problems....."
I think the first decision to be made is whether he's fit to face trial fullstop. If he is then why should he not face charges in a British court under British law?
Video link to be tried under another juristiction? That is a slippery slope that wouldn't get my vote. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"McKinnon the Brit who hacked into US systems will not be extradited. He will possibly face charges in this country.
I applaud this decision. "
although it does now open a hornets nest....
the point being what is the difference between this case, and 2 of the 4 people who were extriditied under the abu hamza case... who also had similar diagnosis made by government officals...
one case is likely to be supported by daily mail reader... the other... not so much!
it was a populist decision... so as long as he is still charged... then cool! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Hurray to that !
He can't even have been that good else he'd be working for them by now ! "
If the Yanks had any sense at all, he would! But they haven't, so he's not.
Fully expect him to be signed up by MI5 now.....
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
I think the first decision to be made is whether he's fit to face trial fullstop. If he is then why should he not face charges in a British court under British law?
Video link to be tried under another juristiction? That is a slippery slope that wouldn't get my vote. "
trail have been held under the terms of another justisdiction all the time.... the international court at the hauge being the most famous.....
they are not saying he isn't fit for trial, they are saying he isn't fit for extridiction.... there is a big legal difference.... |
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"Hurray to that !
He can't even have been that good else he'd be working for them by now !
If the Yanks had any sense at all, he would! But they haven't, so he's not.
Fully expect him to be signed up by MI5 now.....
"
I think the Yanks were more stupid than he was clever...servers without passwords, DMZ's that didn't do their jobs properly etc.
The UK Goverment should have told them to bugger off years ago, your own ineptness isn't a valid reason for extradition, surely ? |
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"I am glad the government has made this decision but I am also saddened that human rights for some are more valid than for others."
Amnesty International just made the same point: “It makes a refreshing change to hear Theresa May invoking the human rights protections afforded by the Human Rights Act. It can only be hoped that her decision today marks a change in direction wherein the Home Secretary ceases to call for those very protections to be dismantled, and indeed champions the Act for the safeguards it provides.”
Personally I won't hold my breath.. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I am glad the government has made this decision but I am also saddened that human rights for some are more valid than for others.
Amnesty International just made the same point: “It makes a refreshing change to hear Theresa May invoking the human rights protections afforded by the Human Rights Act. It can only be hoped that her decision today marks a change in direction wherein the Home Secretary ceases to call for those very protections to be dismantled, and indeed champions the Act for the safeguards it provides.”
Personally I won't hold my breath.. "
I won't be holding my breath either but we now have a lovely soundbite to replay when the next case comes up.
The real hope I have for this case is to stop the unquestioning extradiction of British citizens to America. The American's don't do it! |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
I think the first decision to be made is whether he's fit to face trial fullstop. If he is then why should he not face charges in a British court under British law?
Video link to be tried under another juristiction? That is a slippery slope that wouldn't get my vote.
trail have been held under the terms of another justisdiction all the time.... the international court at the hauge being the most famous.....
they are not saying he isn't fit for trial, they are saying he isn't fit for extridiction.... there is a big legal difference...."
I know they are not saying he isn't fit to face trial, that's why I'm saying that's the next key decision.
The international court is just that, an international court, just like the Euripean court I believe their juristiction is accepted to cover British soil.
US juristiction is not and long may that continue. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I am glad the government has made this decision but I am also saddened that human rights for some are more valid than for others.
Amnesty International just made the same point: “It makes a refreshing change to hear Theresa May invoking the human rights protections afforded by the Human Rights Act. It can only be hoped that her decision today marks a change in direction wherein the Home Secretary ceases to call for those very protections to be dismantled, and indeed champions the Act for the safeguards it provides.”
Personally I won't hold my breath.. "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"send him to the usa i say one less con to keep "
Possibly a bit harsh given that he has Aspergers, and was only looking for evidence of UFOs.....
No doubt he will be assessed by psychiatrists to determine if he is fit to plead, and also whether he was legally sane at the time of the acts. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
The real hope I have for this case is to stop the unquestioning extradiction of British citizens to America. The American's don't do it!"
this comes up time and time again and its about time we quashed something...
according to amnasty international.... in the UK-US exridition agreement to UK has now stepped in 7 time to refuse a US request....
anyone care to guess the amount of times the US has refused a UK request....
the answer is none......
so can we at least get facts straight.....
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"
The real hope I have for this case is to stop the unquestioning extradiction of British citizens to America. The American's don't do it!
this comes up time and time again and its about time we quashed something...
according to amnasty international.... in the UK-US exridition agreement to UK has now stepped in 7 time to refuse a US request....
anyone care to guess the amount of times the US has refused a UK request....
the answer is none......
so can we at least get facts straight.....
"
Thank you for the correction. I will have to look and see how many requests the UK has made. And how many the US has made. |
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"send him to the usa i say one less con to keep
Possibly a bit harsh given that he has Aspergers, and was only looking for evidence of UFOs....."
100% agree. Yes what he did was very wrong and yes he deseveres to be punished. But I can't believe someone has asked what the differance between him and Abu Hamza is?!?! 
He is not a terrorist conspiring to murder 100s/1000s of inocent people because they don't believe in the same religion. Abu Hamza deserves far worse punishment than even the Americans can dish out. Whereas this man is no danger to society and I'm sure will be dealt with appropriately here!! |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"send him to the usa i say one less con to keep
Possibly a bit harsh given that he has Aspergers, and was only looking for evidence of UFOs.....
100% agree. Yes what he did was very wrong and yes he deseveres to be punished. But I can't believe someone has asked what the differance between him and Abu Hamza is?!?!
"
in terms of extridition there isn't any differece...
look up the case in particular of khalid al-fawwaz, everyone including the doctors for the home office agreed that "he wasn't in good shape now, and if sent to the US could be suicidal and in danger of killing himself..."
sound familiar....should do, its the same wording used for gary mckinnon....
yet... one goes... and one stays....
in the eyes of the law.. they are the same in terms of extridicion.. so it makes no sense for one to go and one to stay.....
one is hated by the daily mail... the other had a dialy mail campaign in his favour...
so lets get this right, we only extridite the ones we don't like now.... got it!!!  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Bit of a difficult one this one, the Americans want to put him in jail as a deterrent to other "non criminal" hackers,
He is a rare find because he is clever enough to get in, but not clever enough to know he needed to cover his tracks.
Of course those who should be made an example of are the ones that left the doors open on supposedly secure systems, wonder how much information went out without them noticing?
But at the same time there is a balance point between security and availability, a shop will never be shoplifted if it bricks up the windows and doors... but wont make any money either.
I would think it would be a better example of punishment for hacking if he was tried in the UK (his home country) for misuse of computer systems generically, establishing a law that breaking and entering any computer system anywhere in the world from anywhere won't be tolerated. just add it onto the Leveson inquiry  |
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"send him to the usa i say one less con to keep
Possibly a bit harsh given that he has Aspergers, and was only looking for evidence of UFOs.....
100% agree. Yes what he did was very wrong and yes he deseveres to be punished. But I can't believe someone has asked what the differance between him and Abu Hamza is?!?!
in terms of extridition there isn't any differece...
look up the case in particular of khalid al-fawwaz, everyone including the doctors for the home office agreed that "he wasn't in good shape now, and if sent to the US could be suicidal and in danger of killing himself..."
sound familiar....should do, its the same wording used for gary mckinnon....
yet... one goes... and one stays....
in the eyes of the law.. they are the same in terms of extridicion.. so it makes no sense for one to go and one to stay.....
one is hated by the daily mail... the other had a dialy mail campaign in his favour...
so lets get this right, we only extridite the ones we don't like now.... got it!!! "
Yes I see what you're saying and of course in the eyes of the law you are correct, I wont pretend to be clued up on this as im not. But the actual crime must come into it? Not just the mental state. I'm sure if he had done this with malice and a history of of such things the outcome may have been very different |
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"send him to the usa i say one less con to keep
Possibly a bit harsh given that he has Aspergers, and was only looking for evidence of UFOs.....
100% agree. Yes what he did was very wrong and yes he deseveres to be punished. But I can't believe someone has asked what the differance between him and Abu Hamza is?!?!
in terms of extridition there isn't any differece...
look up the case in particular of khalid al-fawwaz, everyone including the doctors for the home office agreed that "he wasn't in good shape now, and if sent to the US could be suicidal and in danger of killing himself..."
sound familiar....should do, its the same wording used for gary mckinnon....
yet... one goes... and one stays....
in the eyes of the law.. they are the same in terms of extridicion.. so it makes no sense for one to go and one to stay.....
one is hated by the daily mail... the other had a dialy mail campaign in his favour...
so lets get this right, we only extridite the ones we don't like now.... got it!!! "
Never believed in sending our waste to other countries or for us to accept theirs. We need to use our courts to find out if they are guilty if found that they are send them to the country that brought the case. Firm believer in everyone's human rights. |
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"send him to the usa i say one less con to keep
Possibly a bit harsh given that he has Aspergers, and was only looking for evidence of UFOs.....
100% agree. Yes what he did was very wrong and yes he deseveres to be punished. But I can't believe someone has asked what the differance between him and Abu Hamza is?!?!
in terms of extridition there isn't any differece...
look up the case in particular of khalid al-fawwaz, everyone including the doctors for the home office agreed that "he wasn't in good shape now, and if sent to the US could be suicidal and in danger of killing himself..."
sound familiar....should do, its the same wording used for gary mckinnon....
yet... one goes... and one stays....
in the eyes of the law.. they are the same in terms of extridicion.. so it makes no sense for one to go and one to stay.....
one is hated by the daily mail... the other had a dialy mail campaign in his favour...
so lets get this right, we only extridite the ones we don't like now.... got it!!!
Yes I see what you're saying and of course in the eyes of the law you are correct, I wont pretend to be clued up on this as im not. But the actual crime must come into it? Not just the mental state. I'm sure if he had done this with malice and a history of of such things the outcome may have been very different "
The crime doesn't come into it at all, just whether it's an extraditable offence or not...at this point all the defendants are just that, defendants and therefore, innocent until proven guilty. |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"
The real hope I have for this case is to stop the unquestioning extradiction of British citizens to America. The American's don't do it!
this comes up time and time again and its about time we quashed something...
according to amnasty international.... in the UK-US exridition agreement to UK has now stepped in 7 time to refuse a US request....
anyone care to guess the amount of times the US has refused a UK request....
the answer is none......
so can we at least get facts straight.....
Thank you for the correction. I will have to look and see how many requests the UK has made. And how many the US has made."
From 01/2004 - 12/2011 there have been 33 UK extraditions to the US
From 01/2004 - 12/2011 there have been 7 US extraditions to the UK
It doesn't say how many applications there were though. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"
The real hope I have for this case is to stop the unquestioning extradiction of British citizens to America. The American's don't do it!
this comes up time and time again and its about time we quashed something...
according to amnasty international.... in the UK-US exridition agreement to UK has now stepped in 7 time to refuse a US request....
anyone care to guess the amount of times the US has refused a UK request....
the answer is none......
so can we at least get facts straight.....
Thank you for the correction. I will have to look and see how many requests the UK has made. And how many the US has made.
From 01/2004 - 12/2011 there have been 33 UK extraditions to the US
From 01/2004 - 12/2011 there have been 7 US extraditions to the UK
It doesn't say how many applications there were though."
You got there before me. Thank you. It does not detract from Fabio's point but it does add a layer I find interesting. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Each case should be assessed on its own merit not a tit of r tat thing or numbers game. The courts should look at the individuals and base a decision on the evidence available. |
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By *icketysplitsWoman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"No matter what the outcome, you can guarantee that once again, the poor British taxpayer will foot the inevitable millions of pounds worth of costs.  "
We already have and will continue to do so. Justice should be blind but it is costly. |
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By *oodmessMan
over a year ago
yumsville |
"
The real hope I have for this case is to stop the unquestioning extradiction of British citizens to America. The American's don't do it!
this comes up time and time again and its about time we quashed something...
according to amnasty international.... in the UK-US exridition agreement to UK has now stepped in 7 time to refuse a US request....
anyone care to guess the amount of times the US has refused a UK request....
the answer is none......
so can we at least get facts straight.....
Thank you for the correction. I will have to look and see how many requests the UK has made. And how many the US has made.
From 01/2004 - 12/2011 there have been 33 UK extraditions to the US
From 01/2004 - 12/2011 there have been 7 US extraditions to the UK
It doesn't say how many applications there were though.
You got there before me. Thank you. It does not detract from Fabio's point but it does add a layer I find interesting."
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"No matter what the outcome, you can guarantee that once again, the poor British taxpayer will foot the inevitable millions of pounds worth of costs.
We already have and will continue to do so. Justice should be blind but it is costly."
I think justice should be all seeing, the public good needs to be taken into account, as does the right of the person. Be great if money was no object but everyone know that is never the case. Justice just seems to take so long and then the appeals start |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Excellent news! Hey Amuurika, you can keep the hook handed one, along with his buddies, we keep the hacker - might be useful.
Great Britain x  "
First thing we could get him to do is hack Google and get their page ranking algorithms... Might get me website noticed then...
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
The real hope I have for this case is to stop the unquestioning extradiction of British citizens to America. The American's don't do it!
this comes up time and time again and its about time we quashed something...
according to amnasty international.... in the UK-US exridition agreement to UK has now stepped in 7 time to refuse a US request....
anyone care to guess the amount of times the US has refused a UK request....
the answer is none......
so can we at least get facts straight.....
"
If we really want to get facts straight Fabio then lets not ignore the unfair imbalance that is the US UK extradition treaty. Fact. The burden of proof is much higher in order to extradite a US citizen to the UK than the other way round. This is not about a numbers game.
The problem many have is that the 'land of the free and home of the brave' seems to struggle when it comes to playing fair.
McKinnon has been saved by the Human Rights Act, without it the UK would have been powerless to say no. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Gary McKinnon seems to have led an ordinary life until he broke the law. Caught in 2002 then all of a sudden he has mental health issues and diagnosed with as asbergers in 2008. Claims he's been through so much over the past 10 years that nothing should happen now but it was him and his legal team that appealed and appealed and appealed stringing it out for 10 years. |
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"Gary McKinnon seems to have led an ordinary life until he broke the law. Caught in 2002 then all of a sudden he has mental health issues and diagnosed with as asbergers in 2008. Claims he's been through so much over the past 10 years that nothing should happen now but it was him and his legal team that appealed and appealed and appealed stringing it out for 10 years."
Is aspergers a condition that can be diagnosed in adult life? If so I wasn't aware of that and was under the impression it is a condition that manifests itself in childhood. Always good to learn and to correct misconceptions.
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"
If we really want to get facts straight Fabio then lets not ignore the unfair imbalance that is the US UK extradition treaty. Fact. The burden of proof is much higher in order to extradite a US citizen to the UK than the other way round. This is not about a numbers game.
The problem many have is that the 'land of the free and home of the brave' seems to struggle when it comes to playing fair.
McKinnon has been saved by the Human Rights Act, without it the UK would have been powerless to say no. "
again... something put out that actually is NOT true...
They had a panal of UK judges led by sir scott baker look at this and they said there is nothing wrong with the way it is at the moment...
and you need the same "burden of proof" to be extridited BOTH way......
so now the families of both Babar Ahmed and Syed Al-Hasan, have both issued statement claiming racism in the fact that with the same evidence from home office doctors, they were sent to the states and McKinnon was not... and I don't blame them.... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Gary McKinnon seems to have led an ordinary life until he broke the law. Caught in 2002 then all of a sudden he has mental health issues and diagnosed with as asbergers in 2008. Claims he's been through so much over the past 10 years that nothing should happen now but it was him and his legal team that appealed and appealed and appealed stringing it out for 10 years. Is aspergers a condition that can be diagnosed in adult life? If so I wasn't aware of that and was under the impression it is a condition that manifests itself in childhood. Always good to learn and to correct misconceptions."
It does generally manifest itself in childhood, though when he was a child it was less known so he may not have been diagnosed at that time but it's just convenient that nobody thought to have phychiatrists or psychologists look at him before this happened |
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If we really want to get facts straight Fabio then lets not ignore the unfair imbalance that is the US UK extradition treaty. Fact. The burden of proof is much higher in order to extradite a US citizen to the UK than the other way round. This is not about a numbers game.
The problem many have is that the 'land of the free and home of the brave' seems to struggle when it comes to playing fair.
McKinnon has been saved by the Human Rights Act, without it the UK would have been powerless to say no.
again... something put out that actually is NOT true...
They had a panal of UK judges led by sir scott baker look at this and they said there is nothing wrong with the way it is at the moment...
and you need the same "burden of proof" to be extridited BOTH way......
so now the families of both Babar Ahmed and Syed Al-Hasan, have both issued statement claiming racism in the fact that with the same evidence from home office doctors, they were sent to the states and McKinnon was not... and I don't blame them...."
Pretty much what I said |
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"
If we really want to get facts straight Fabio then lets not ignore the unfair imbalance that is the US UK extradition treaty. Fact. The burden of proof is much higher in order to extradite a US citizen to the UK than the other way round. This is not about a numbers game.
The problem many have is that the 'land of the free and home of the brave' seems to struggle when it comes to playing fair.
McKinnon has been saved by the Human Rights Act, without it the UK would have been powerless to say no.
again... something put out that actually is NOT true...
They had a panal of UK judges led by sir scott baker look at this and they said there is nothing wrong with the way it is at the moment...
and you need the same "burden of proof" to be extridited BOTH way......
so now the families of both Babar Ahmed and Syed Al-Hasan, have both issued statement claiming racism in the fact that with the same evidence from home office doctors, they were sent to the states and McKinnon was not... and I don't blame them...."
Indeed - the difference between the requirements of the US and the UK is semantics at best.
Channel 4's Fact Check has a very good summary here:
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-may-mckinnon-and-extradition-still-unfair/11673
There are some interesting figures regarding numbers of people extradited (and their nationalities). It's well worth a read, imo.
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By *iewMan
over a year ago
Forum Mod Angus & Findhorn |
I am glad he is not, not sure what happens next with regard to criminal charges but one hope....
he does not financially benefit from any story sold.
that in my opinion is wrong, if you are not well enough to face the consequences of your actions, you should not benefit from them |
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By *umsuckMan
over a year ago
Gateshead |
Just one small point. If a us citizen commits a crime on us soil he/she cannot be extradited,its against the constitution. Mr Mckinnon is a british citizen and commited the alleged crime on british soil. |
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"send him to the usa i say one less con to keep
Possibly a bit harsh given that he has Aspergers, and was only looking for evidence of UFOs.....
100% agree. Yes what he did was very wrong and yes he deseveres to be punished. But I can't believe someone has asked what the differance between him and Abu Hamza is?!?!
He is not a terrorist conspiring to murder 100s/1000s of
inocent people because they don't believe in the same religion. Abu Hamza deserves far worse punishment than even the Americans can dish out. Whereas this man is no danger to society and I'm sure will be dealt with appropriately here!!"
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
If we really want to get facts straight Fabio then lets not ignore the unfair imbalance that is the US UK extradition treaty. Fact. The burden of proof is much higher in order to extradite a US citizen to the UK than the other way round. This is not about a numbers game.
The problem many have is that the 'land of the free and home of the brave' seems to struggle when it comes to playing fair.
McKinnon has been saved by the Human Rights Act, without it the UK would have been powerless to say no.
again... something put out that actually is NOT true...
They had a panal of UK judges led by sir scott baker look at this and they said there is nothing wrong with the way it is at the moment...
and you need the same "burden of proof" to be extridited BOTH way......
so now the families of both Babar Ahmed and Syed Al-Hasan, have both issued statement claiming racism in the fact that with the same evidence from home office doctors, they were sent to the states and McKinnon was not... and I don't blame them...."
The Baker report has been criticised by many and labelled a 'whitewash' by some. The Commons Home Affairs Select Committee and the Commons Committee On Human Rights are clear that despite the findings of Baker they recommend immediate change or a renegotiation of the treaty as it doesn't sufficiently protect the rights of British Citizens.
Theresa May allready appears to be making some of these changes via the back door.
I agree with the point made in relation to Babar Ahmad. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Think they should give him a job sorting out their computer security. He embarrassed some important people and that made them really gun for this guy. Having worked with people with various levels of being ASD the real crime would have been to extradite him to the States. Not often I agree with politicians of any political colour, but did yesterday. We are not part of the States. |
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