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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
The Virgin vs FirstGroup vs government competency debacle shows just how poor their practice is in awarding large contracts to the private sector.
Will they now have to go ahead with taking the line back into public operation, changing the livery to grey and the cost that incurs whilst they go through a re-tendering process? |
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By *he tactile technicianMan
over a year ago
the good lands, the bad lands, the any where you may want me lands |
"The Virgin vs FirstGroup vs government competency debacle shows just how poor their practice is in awarding large contracts to the private sector.
Will they now have to go ahead with taking the line back into public operation, changing the livery to grey and the cost that incurs whilst they go through a re-tendering process?"
Don't be silly, they'll call in the army to pick up the pieces and sort out the mess  |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I don't think so I believe they will let virgin run until they get their act together...bet you 50p virgin win it next time round  "
The current Virgin contract is due to expire so it would need to be extended and then the other bidders may have a cause for complaint. |
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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago
Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum |
"I don't think so I believe they will let virgin run until they get their act together...bet you 50p virgin win it next time round
The current Virgin contract is due to expire so it would need to be extended and then the other bidders may have a cause for complaint."
The sitting contractor stays on, the unsuccessful bidders are getting their bidding costs refunded (by us!!) and there will be a new tender exercise when the Govt have worked out where they cocked up. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I don't think so I believe they will let virgin run until they get their act together...bet you 50p virgin win it next time round
The current Virgin contract is due to expire so it would need to be extended and then the other bidders may have a cause for complaint.
The sitting contractor stays on, the unsuccessful bidders are getting their bidding costs refunded (by us!!) and there will be a new tender exercise when the Govt have worked out where they cocked up."
That will be interesting. The minister is saying the ultimate decision was taken by ministers but it's civil servants that are taking the rap. |
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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago
Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum |
"I don't think so I believe they will let virgin run until they get their act together...bet you 50p virgin win it next time round
The current Virgin contract is due to expire so it would need to be extended and then the other bidders may have a cause for complaint.
The sitting contractor stays on, the unsuccessful bidders are getting their bidding costs refunded (by us!!) and there will be a new tender exercise when the Govt have worked out where they cocked up.
That will be interesting. The minister is saying the ultimate decision was taken by ministers but it's civil servants that are taking the rap."
I am a civil servant, and this does not surprise me at all.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I don't think so I believe they will let virgin run until they get their act together...bet you 50p virgin win it next time round
The current Virgin contract is due to expire so it would need to be extended and then the other bidders may have a cause for complaint.
The sitting contractor stays on, the unsuccessful bidders are getting their bidding costs refunded (by us!!) and there will be a new tender exercise when the Govt have worked out where they cocked up.
That will be interesting. The minister is saying the ultimate decision was taken by ministers but it's civil servants that are taking the rap.
I am a civil servant, and this does not surprise me at all. "
was it you who never used the calculator properly? |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I don't think so I believe they will let virgin run until they get their act together...bet you 50p virgin win it next time round
The current Virgin contract is due to expire so it would need to be extended and then the other bidders may have a cause for complaint.
The sitting contractor stays on, the unsuccessful bidders are getting their bidding costs refunded (by us!!) and there will be a new tender exercise when the Govt have worked out where they cocked up.
That will be interesting. The minister is saying the ultimate decision was taken by ministers but it's civil servants that are taking the rap.
I am a civil servant, and this does not surprise me at all. "
I'm not but I have worked with enough government departments that it doesn't surprise me either. Ministers rush through ideas and then expect the kinks to be ironed out during the bidding process. That is not the way to deal with such large value contracts.
Maria Eagle is arguing that the other parties would be able to complain if Virgin did continue to run beyond the current contract. |
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"The minister is saying the ultimate decision was taken by ministers but it's civil servants that are taking the rap."
and the 'ministers' were all moved before this came out, bet a pound to a pinch of sheite that 'our Dave' knew about this feck up before the reshuffle..
and to release the news in the dead of night..
someone should resign, but they can't as they were'nt there...
shambles is not even close... |
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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago
Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum |
"I don't think so I believe they will let virgin run until they get their act together...bet you 50p virgin win it next time round
The current Virgin contract is due to expire so it would need to be extended and then the other bidders may have a cause for complaint.
The sitting contractor stays on, the unsuccessful bidders are getting their bidding costs refunded (by us!!) and there will be a new tender exercise when the Govt have worked out where they cocked up.
That will be interesting. The minister is saying the ultimate decision was taken by ministers but it's civil servants that are taking the rap.
I am a civil servant, and this does not surprise me at all.
I'm not but I have worked with enough government departments that it doesn't surprise me either. Ministers rush through ideas and then expect the kinks to be ironed out during the bidding process. That is not the way to deal with such large value contracts.
Maria Eagle is arguing that the other parties would be able to complain if Virgin did continue to run beyond the current contract."
They could complain if they don't get their costs back but they will. If a tenderer complains there is something called the Alcatel agreement which allows things to be investigated, and if the complaint is upheld the tender exercise is declared null (this is all EU Public Procurement regulations so very strict). If the complainant is the sitting contractor, it is cheaper to extend while sorting out the mess, and then do another tender exercise. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Maria Eagle is arguing that the other parties would be able to complain if Virgin did continue to run beyond the current contract.
They could complain if they don't get their costs back but they will. If a tenderer complains there is something called the Alcatel agreement which allows things to be investigated, and if the complaint is upheld the tender exercise is declared null (this is all EU Public Procurement regulations so very strict). If the complainant is the sitting contractor, it is cheaper to extend while sorting out the mess, and then do another tender exercise."
I agree it would be cheaper and I have seen smaller contracts being rolled forward using the EU regs but never when the other parties are also compensated for having gone through one unsuccessful exercise. The next question will be if the tender will be ringfenced to those that previously bid or whether the whole competition is opened up again. Assuming all bidders asked for feedback on their tenders and the information that has come out about the FirstGroup and Virgin tenders then additional companies entering the fray may feel disadvantaged. |
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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago
Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum |
"Maria Eagle is arguing that the other parties would be able to complain if Virgin did continue to run beyond the current contract.
They could complain if they don't get their costs back but they will. If a tenderer complains there is something called the Alcatel agreement which allows things to be investigated, and if the complaint is upheld the tender exercise is declared null (this is all EU Public Procurement regulations so very strict). If the complainant is the sitting contractor, it is cheaper to extend while sorting out the mess, and then do another tender exercise.
I agree it would be cheaper and I have seen smaller contracts being rolled forward using the EU regs but never when the other parties are also compensated for having gone through one unsuccessful exercise. The next question will be if the tender will be ringfenced to those that previously bid or whether the whole competition is opened up again. Assuming all bidders asked for feedback on their tenders and the information that has come out about the FirstGroup and Virgin tenders then additional companies entering the fray may feel disadvantaged."
Depends if they used Restricted procedure or Competitive negotiation, but I have a sneaky feeling there's not many companies that do this sort of thing.
Virgin will have an unfair disadvantage - the sitting contractor usually does. But its going to be a while before its all sorted out. I am just glad that my contracts are tiny little things (comparatively ) |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Maria Eagle is arguing that the other parties would be able to complain if Virgin did continue to run beyond the current contract.
They could complain if they don't get their costs back but they will. If a tenderer complains there is something called the Alcatel agreement which allows things to be investigated, and if the complaint is upheld the tender exercise is declared null (this is all EU Public Procurement regulations so very strict). If the complainant is the sitting contractor, it is cheaper to extend while sorting out the mess, and then do another tender exercise.
I agree it would be cheaper and I have seen smaller contracts being rolled forward using the EU regs but never when the other parties are also compensated for having gone through one unsuccessful exercise. The next question will be if the tender will be ringfenced to those that previously bid or whether the whole competition is opened up again. Assuming all bidders asked for feedback on their tenders and the information that has come out about the FirstGroup and Virgin tenders then additional companies entering the fray may feel disadvantaged.
Depends if they used Restricted procedure or Competitive negotiation, but I have a sneaky feeling there's not many companies that do this sort of thing.
Virgin will have an unfair disadvantage - the sitting contractor usually does. But its going to be a while before its all sorted out. I am just glad that my contracts are tiny little things (comparatively )"
Thanks for sharing. It could be worse... thankfully State Aid rules stop this from being layered with ERDF too. |
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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago
Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum |
"Maria Eagle is arguing that the other parties would be able to complain if Virgin did continue to run beyond the current contract.
They could complain if they don't get their costs back but they will. If a tenderer complains there is something called the Alcatel agreement which allows things to be investigated, and if the complaint is upheld the tender exercise is declared null (this is all EU Public Procurement regulations so very strict). If the complainant is the sitting contractor, it is cheaper to extend while sorting out the mess, and then do another tender exercise.
I agree it would be cheaper and I have seen smaller contracts being rolled forward using the EU regs but never when the other parties are also compensated for having gone through one unsuccessful exercise. The next question will be if the tender will be ringfenced to those that previously bid or whether the whole competition is opened up again. Assuming all bidders asked for feedback on their tenders and the information that has come out about the FirstGroup and Virgin tenders then additional companies entering the fray may feel disadvantaged.
Depends if they used Restricted procedure or Competitive negotiation, but I have a sneaky feeling there's not many companies that do this sort of thing.
Virgin will have an unfair disadvantage - the sitting contractor usually does. But its going to be a while before its all sorted out. I am just glad that my contracts are tiny little things (comparatively )
Thanks for sharing. It could be worse... thankfully State Aid rules stop this from being layered with ERDF too."
Yep, they cocked up, but it sounds like they stuck to the EU Proc Regs so things could have been a lot worse. New calculators all round I reckon. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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dave and his chums knew in August what was going on which is whe moved all the incumbants out.
The head of ATOC (Associatio of Train Opperating Companies) this morning put half the blame on incompetent Civil Servants and the other on the ministers for the flawed tendering rules
I believe that the truth is that the Civil Service is entirely unable to run a procurement tender. Every tender handled in Whitehall ends in extravagant costs for desperately poor results because those departments tender managers are career civil servants whn have no clue what things cost to private sector organisations. They seem naive and, because management is done by politicos whos aims are driven by public opinion and changing policy which results in changes to the program requirements which result in further hikes in costs |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"dave and his chums knew in August what was going on which is whe moved all the incumbants out.
The head of ATOC (Associatio of Train Opperating Companies) this morning put half the blame on incompetent Civil Servants and the other on the ministers for the flawed tendering rules
I believe that the truth is that the Civil Service is entirely unable to run a procurement tender. Every tender handled in Whitehall ends in extravagant costs for desperately poor results because those departments tender managers are career civil servants whn have no clue what things cost to private sector organisations. They seem naive and, because management is done by politicos whos aims are driven by public opinion and changing policy which results in changes to the program requirements which result in further hikes in costs"
I think it is a little more cumbersome than that, even. Those doing the commissioning don't follow through on the procurement as it is then passed on, in my experience. The commissioners think they have retained control, when they done and then they are moved onto another post and there is never a proper handover. |
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By *yrdwomanWoman
over a year ago
Putting the 'cum' in Eboracum |
"dave and his chums knew in August what was going on which is whe moved all the incumbants out.
The head of ATOC (Associatio of Train Opperating Companies) this morning put half the blame on incompetent Civil Servants and the other on the ministers for the flawed tendering rules
I believe that the truth is that the Civil Service is entirely unable to run a procurement tender. Every tender handled in Whitehall ends in extravagant costs for desperately poor results because those departments tender managers are career civil servants whn have no clue what things cost to private sector organisations. They seem naive and, because management is done by politicos whos aims are driven by public opinion and changing policy which results in changes to the program requirements which result in further hikes in costs"
Well, MY contracts run fine thank you, but I do agree that there is a huge gap between the policy makers who don't stay in a job long enough to see what damage they can do, and the poor sods who take the rap when it goes tits up. |
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The railways farce, the G4s olympic security farce.....do the people who award these contracts base their decisions on value for money for the ultimate bill payer (the tax payer) or is it purely done on who wines, dines and lines the pocket of the decision maker, we like to think that the corruption that takes place in other countries is something that happens elsewhere, but after the events of the last few months it is looking like the people who hold the power in this country are no better than some military dictator in some banana republic.....do we actually know how much our government and all its hangers on (ie the rest of the privelidged few that are supposedly acting in our best interests) are really costing us, I think not. |
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