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Ethics of perving
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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This has been an ethical dilemma that's been haunting me for long and I would like to hear what others think about it.
When it comes to approaching a woman, one can easily draw a line using consent. Talk to them. If they are interested, continue. If they are not interested, leave them alone.
But how about just seeing someone sexy in a public setting? I know that staring at them non-stop creepily is wrong. Is making an occasional glance ok? Where do you draw the line?
I personally have a thing for women's feet and legs. When I am in the train, in spite of trying hard to focus on the book I am reading, I get distracted by some nice looking feet and legs. Is it fine to steal glances once in awhile? What makes it ok or not ok? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"If they don't notice it's fine.
If they notice but like it it's fine.
If they notice and don't like it it's not fine. "
The second part gets complicated in such a setting. Unless you talk to the person, there is no way to know if the person likes it or not. |
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If they become uncomfortable at any point. If you think it's uncomfortable or doubt you should be doing it for any reason. If you think others are uncomfortable about it. If there are children about.
I'd say those are good benchmarks to stop.
LvM |
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By *aliceWoman
over a year ago
Birmingham |
If you think you'd make them uncomfortable if they spot you, then you shouldn't be doing it.
Whether something is ethical or not isn't defined by getting away with it.
Notice a nice pair of legs? Great. No need for another look. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"If they become uncomfortable at any point. If you think it's uncomfortable or doubt you should be doing it for any reason. If you think others are uncomfortable about it. If there are children about.
I'd say those are good benchmarks to stop.
LvM"
Thanks!
It makes sense to lean on the safer side. Even if there is a small sign that it's making someone uncomfortable, stop doing that  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"If you think you'd make them uncomfortable if they spot you, then you shouldn't be doing it.
Whether something is ethical or not isn't defined by getting away with it.
Notice a nice pair of legs? Great. No need for another look."
Thanks! Agree that one's ethics shouldn't be completely defined by whether they are getting caught. But forget legs or anything sexual. When a person finds someone attractive, isn't normal that they steal glances once in awhile? You are at a restaurant and you find someone dashing sitting in the opposite table. Wouldn't you take a look at them more than once during the course of your dinner? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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If you find yourself staring at someone and wondering whether you’re being inappropriate then imagine how you’d feel if someone was staring at your sister or other female relative in the way you’re staring at that person. If you’d be ok with it then what you’re doing is probably fine and non intrusive but if you wouldn’t like someone staring at your female relative in the way you’re staring at someone then what you’re doing isn’t fine. I reckon you wouldn’t be ok with anyone staring at your female relatives in any way.
Personally I don’t think staring at anyone in a public setting is ok, you have no way of knowing if the person is comfortable with it or not as they may be trying to hide how uncomfortable and embarrassed they are and I’d say it’s highly unlikely that anyone is comfortable with a stranger staring at them.
The fact that you’re even asking the question shows that you know that staring at someone is wrong. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"If you find yourself staring at someone and wondering whether you’re being inappropriate then imagine how you’d feel if someone was staring at your sister or other female relative in the way you’re staring at that person. If you’d be ok with it then what you’re doing is probably fine and non intrusive but if you wouldn’t like someone staring at your female relative in the way you’re staring at someone then what you’re doing isn’t fine. I reckon you wouldn’t be ok with anyone staring at your female relatives in any way.
Personally I don’t think staring at anyone in a public setting is ok, you have no way of knowing if the person is comfortable with it or not as they may be trying to hide how uncomfortable and embarrassed they are and I’d say it’s highly unlikely that anyone is comfortable with a stranger staring at them.
The fact that you’re even asking the question shows that you know that staring at someone is wrong. "
Agree with the notion that it's better to assume by default that the person is uncomfortable. But you see both men and women telling something like this normally - "I saw that hot guy/girl in the tube. I liked how he/she was dressed up." They go on to say something that clearly says they were observing them for longer than usual. But many people seem to be fine with that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If you find yourself staring at someone and wondering whether you’re being inappropriate then imagine how you’d feel if someone was staring at your sister or other female relative in the way you’re staring at that person. If you’d be ok with it then what you’re doing is probably fine and non intrusive but if you wouldn’t like someone staring at your female relative in the way you’re staring at someone then what you’re doing isn’t fine. I reckon you wouldn’t be ok with anyone staring at your female relatives in any way.
Personally I don’t think staring at anyone in a public setting is ok, you have no way of knowing if the person is comfortable with it or not as they may be trying to hide how uncomfortable and embarrassed they are and I’d say it’s highly unlikely that anyone is comfortable with a stranger staring at them.
The fact that you’re even asking the question shows that you know that staring at someone is wrong.
Agree with the notion that it's better to assume by default that the person is uncomfortable. But you see both men and women telling something like this normally - "I saw that hot guy/girl in the tube. I liked how he/she was dressed up." They go on to say something that clearly says they were observing them for longer than usual. But many people seem to be fine with that."
There’s a difference between glancing at someone or checking someone out to see how they’re dressed etc, and staring at their legs and feet. No one goes around not looking at anyone but people don’t tend to go around staring at other people’s legs and feet. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"If you find yourself staring at someone and wondering whether you’re being inappropriate then imagine how you’d feel if someone was staring at your sister or other female relative in the way you’re staring at that person. If you’d be ok with it then what you’re doing is probably fine and non intrusive but if you wouldn’t like someone staring at your female relative in the way you’re staring at someone then what you’re doing isn’t fine. I reckon you wouldn’t be ok with anyone staring at your female relatives in any way.
Personally I don’t think staring at anyone in a public setting is ok, you have no way of knowing if the person is comfortable with it or not as they may be trying to hide how uncomfortable and embarrassed they are and I’d say it’s highly unlikely that anyone is comfortable with a stranger staring at them.
The fact that you’re even asking the question shows that you know that staring at someone is wrong.
Agree with the notion that it's better to assume by default that the person is uncomfortable. But you see both men and women telling something like this normally - "I saw that hot guy/girl in the tube. I liked how he/she was dressed up." They go on to say something that clearly says they were observing them for longer than usual. But many people seem to be fine with that.
There’s a difference between glancing at someone or checking someone out to see how they’re dressed etc, and staring at their legs and feet. No one goes around not looking at anyone but people don’t tend to go around staring at other people’s legs and feet. "
It's not just about dressing. I have seen some women comment about how hung a guy looked or how great his biceps were. People don't just "notice" dressing in these circumstances.
Again, I am not justifying staring. It is clearly wrong to make someone uncomfortable. But there seems to be some level of cognitive dissonance in this matter among everyone. While they say it's wrong to look at a person in such a way, we normalise conversations like these in our day to day life.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If you find yourself staring at someone and wondering whether you’re being inappropriate then imagine how you’d feel if someone was staring at your sister or other female relative in the way you’re staring at that person. If you’d be ok with it then what you’re doing is probably fine and non intrusive but if you wouldn’t like someone staring at your female relative in the way you’re staring at someone then what you’re doing isn’t fine. I reckon you wouldn’t be ok with anyone staring at your female relatives in any way.
Personally I don’t think staring at anyone in a public setting is ok, you have no way of knowing if the person is comfortable with it or not as they may be trying to hide how uncomfortable and embarrassed they are and I’d say it’s highly unlikely that anyone is comfortable with a stranger staring at them.
The fact that you’re even asking the question shows that you know that staring at someone is wrong.
Agree with the notion that it's better to assume by default that the person is uncomfortable. But you see both men and women telling something like this normally - "I saw that hot guy/girl in the tube. I liked how he/she was dressed up." They go on to say something that clearly says they were observing them for longer than usual. But many people seem to be fine with that.
There’s a difference between glancing at someone or checking someone out to see how they’re dressed etc, and staring at their legs and feet. No one goes around not looking at anyone but people don’t tend to go around staring at other people’s legs and feet.
It's not just about dressing. I have seen some women comment about how hung a guy looked or how great his biceps were. People don't just "notice" dressing in these circumstances.
Again, I am not justifying staring. It is clearly wrong to make someone uncomfortable. But there seems to be some level of cognitive dissonance in this matter among everyone. While they say it's wrong to look at a person in such a way, we normalise conversations like these in our day to day life.
"
Again, what you’re saying there are things that can be observed from a few glances without the need to stare.
You’ve kind of moved the goal posts from your first post, you were initially talking seeing someone with a physical feature that you’re attracted to and how much is it acceptable to look at that feature but now you’re talking about seeing someone with a physical feature that you’re attracted to and talking about it with friends later. When you first notice the feature that you’re attracted to then you’ve probably already seen enough to be able to talk to your friends about it afterwards without the need to keep glancing and staring at it. The fact that you know you are attracted to it means you’ve looked at it. If you are in a restaurant and there’s a lovely painting on the wall you don’t have to keep staring at it all night to be able to tell someone afterwards that there was a lovely painting in the restaurant do you?
To be honest, I can’t believe I’m having to explain this, it’s normally something people work out for themselves just like all other appropriate behaviour in public. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
There’s a difference between glancing at someone or checking someone out to see how they’re dressed etc, and staring at their legs and feet. No one goes around not looking at anyone but people don’t tend to go around staring at other people’s legs and feet.
It's not just about dressing. I have seen some women comment about how hung a guy looked or how great his biceps were. People don't just "notice" dressing in these circumstances.
Again, I am not justifying staring. It is clearly wrong to make someone uncomfortable. But there seems to be some level of cognitive dissonance in this matter among everyone. While they say it's wrong to look at a person in such a way, we normalise conversations like these in our day to day life.
Again, what you’re saying there are things that can be observed from a few glances without the need to stare.
You’ve kind of moved the goal posts from your first post, you were initially talking seeing someone with a physical feature that you’re attracted to and how much is it acceptable to look at that feature but now you’re talking about seeing someone with a physical feature that you’re attracted to and talking about it with friends later. When you first notice the feature that you’re attracted to then you’ve probably already seen enough to be able to talk to your friends about it afterwards without the need to keep glancing and staring at it. The fact that you know you are attracted to it means you’ve looked at it. If you are in a restaurant and there’s a lovely painting on the wall you don’t have to keep staring at it all night to be able to tell someone afterwards that there was a lovely painting in the restaurant do you?
To be honest, I can’t believe I’m having to explain this, it’s normally something people work out for themselves just like all other appropriate behaviour in public. "
Everyone agrees that staring continuously is bad. You say that even if you are physically attracted to someone, you should notice that only once, that one glance is enough for people to talk about it and that's what people really do.
But when I ask the same question I asked above prodding people to give an honest answer, the answer from everyone paints a different picture:
You are going to a restaurant to have dinner. You notice someone you are very much physically attracted to is sitting opposite to your table. Let's imagine your dinner is official and you find it boring. Would you be able to avoid looking at that person you found hot? Or would you steal glances once in awhile?
The answer from everyone of them is "I will probably take a couple of glances. But I won't be creepy about it." Everyone seems to make some distinction between looking creepily and just glancing.
What's your answer to it? Even if you find a person physically attractive, you will never wilfully look at that person again in an enclosed space over a period of time?
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By *andamoCouple
over a year ago
thornton heath |
Just be enigmatic, f you've got a profile then do a bit of that but mostly be the best of you. you are unique be your uniqueness, you may strike out 7 times. When you find the girl/couple/guy/trans it'll be worthwhile.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
There’s a difference between glancing at someone or checking someone out to see how they’re dressed etc, and staring at their legs and feet. No one goes around not looking at anyone but people don’t tend to go around staring at other people’s legs and feet.
It's not just about dressing. I have seen some women comment about how hung a guy looked or how great his biceps were. People don't just "notice" dressing in these circumstances.
Again, I am not justifying staring. It is clearly wrong to make someone uncomfortable. But there seems to be some level of cognitive dissonance in this matter among everyone. While they say it's wrong to look at a person in such a way, we normalise conversations like these in our day to day life.
Again, what you’re saying there are things that can be observed from a few glances without the need to stare.
You’ve kind of moved the goal posts from your first post, you were initially talking seeing someone with a physical feature that you’re attracted to and how much is it acceptable to look at that feature but now you’re talking about seeing someone with a physical feature that you’re attracted to and talking about it with friends later. When you first notice the feature that you’re attracted to then you’ve probably already seen enough to be able to talk to your friends about it afterwards without the need to keep glancing and staring at it. The fact that you know you are attracted to it means you’ve looked at it. If you are in a restaurant and there’s a lovely painting on the wall you don’t have to keep staring at it all night to be able to tell someone afterwards that there was a lovely painting in the restaurant do you?
To be honest, I can’t believe I’m having to explain this, it’s normally something people work out for themselves just like all other appropriate behaviour in public.
Everyone agrees that staring continuously is bad. You say that even if you are physically attracted to someone, you should notice that only once, that one glance is enough for people to talk about it and that's what people really do.
But when I ask the same question I asked above prodding people to give an honest answer, the answer from everyone paints a different picture:
You are going to a restaurant to have dinner. You notice someone you are very much physically attracted to is sitting opposite to your table. Let's imagine your dinner is official and you find it boring. Would you be able to avoid looking at that person you found hot? Or would you steal glances once in awhile?
The answer from everyone of them is "I will probably take a couple of glances. But I won't be creepy about it." Everyone seems to make some distinction between looking creepily and just glancing.
What's your answer to it? Even if you find a person physically attractive, you will never wilfully look at that person again in an enclosed space over a period of time?
"
Yes, if I was in a restaurant and there was someone I was attracted to then I would glance at her more than once, I wouldn’t stare though and I certainly wouldn’t keep glancing at her legs and feet. If she noticed me glancing at her then I’d stop because I’d be worried that I’d be making her feel uncomfortable, getting caught looking at someone once is passable as a coincidence but if you get caught looking a second time then it looks pervy.
Do you really not see the difference between glancing at someone’s face a few times and repeatedly looking at someone’s legs and feet? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Theres a big diferrence between making eye contact or glancing at someone's face and the way you originally framed the question where you used the example of legs and feet."
Isn't making eye contact itself creepy? If you like the person and want to go on a date, the right approach is to go and talk to the person. Just eye contact without conversation only makes the person more uncomfortable.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
The answer from everyone of them is "I will probably take a couple of glances. But I won't be creepy about it." Everyone seems to make some distinction between looking creepily and just glancing.
What's your answer to it? Even if you find a person physically attractive, you will never wilfully look at that person again in an enclosed space over a period of time?
Yes, if I was in a restaurant and there was someone I was attracted to then I would glance at her more than once, I wouldn’t stare though and I certainly wouldn’t keep glancing at her legs and feet. If she noticed me glancing at her then I’d stop because I’d be worried that I’d be making her feel uncomfortable, getting caught looking at someone once is passable as a coincidence but if you get caught looking a second time then it looks pervy.
Do you really not see the difference between glancing at someone’s face a few times and repeatedly looking at someone’s legs and feet?"
Now who has moved the goal post? First you said it's ok only to see once. Now it's ok to glance at face a few times? And stop watching them if you get caught? I thought your initial idea was built around whether you would find the idea of someone looking at your family member as fine?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
The answer from everyone of them is "I will probably take a couple of glances. But I won't be creepy about it." Everyone seems to make some distinction between looking creepily and just glancing.
What's your answer to it? Even if you find a person physically attractive, you will never wilfully look at that person again in an enclosed space over a period of time?
Yes, if I was in a restaurant and there was someone I was attracted to then I would glance at her more than once, I wouldn’t stare though and I certainly wouldn’t keep glancing at her legs and feet. If she noticed me glancing at her then I’d stop because I’d be worried that I’d be making her feel uncomfortable, getting caught looking at someone once is passable as a coincidence but if you get caught looking a second time then it looks pervy.
Do you really not see the difference between glancing at someone’s face a few times and repeatedly looking at someone’s legs and feet?
Now who has moved the goal post? First you said it's ok only to see once. Now it's ok to glance at face a few times? And stop watching them if you get caught? I thought your initial idea was built around whether you would find the idea of someone looking at your family member as fine?
"
No, what I said was that you only need to glance at someone a couple of times to know that you’re attracted to them and to be able to talk to your friends about them afterwards because you were saying it’s confusing that it’s wrong to stare but ok to discuss with your friends if you see someone you’re attracted to. I was saying you don’t need to stare at someone to be able to do that and you’d know from a couple of glances. I was just disproving your claim that it’s confusing that you shouldn’t stare at someone but it’s ok to discuss the way someone looks because you were implying you have to stare at someone to be able to do that.
Well, personally, I get embarrassed if someone notices me looking at them once and I’d be mortified if they noticed me looking a second time so I don’t let that happen, I think most people feel the same about that as well. And if someone was glancing at my sister then I wouldn’t mind at all, I’d probably make a joke of it and tell her that she has an admirer. If he was staring at her, and especially at her legs and feet I’d be less comfortable with it. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
The answer from everyone of them is "I will probably take a couple of glances. But I won't be creepy about it." Everyone seems to make some distinction between looking creepily and just glancing.
What's your answer to it? Even if you find a person physically attractive, you will never wilfully look at that person again in an enclosed space over a period of time?
Yes, if I was in a restaurant and there was someone I was attracted to then I would glance at her more than once, I wouldn’t stare though and I certainly wouldn’t keep glancing at her legs and feet. If she noticed me glancing at her then I’d stop because I’d be worried that I’d be making her feel uncomfortable, getting caught looking at someone once is passable as a coincidence but if you get caught looking a second time then it looks pervy.
Do you really not see the difference between glancing at someone’s face a few times and repeatedly looking at someone’s legs and feet?
Now who has moved the goal post? First you said it's ok only to see once. Now it's ok to glance at face a few times? And stop watching them if you get caught? I thought your initial idea was built around whether you would find the idea of someone looking at your family member as fine?
No, what I said was that you only need to glance at someone a couple of times to know that you’re attracted to them and to be able to talk to your friends about them afterwards because you were saying it’s confusing that it’s wrong to stare but ok to discuss with your friends if you see someone you’re attracted to. I was saying you don’t need to stare at someone to be able to do that and you’d know from a couple of glances. I was just disproving your claim that it’s confusing that you shouldn’t stare at someone but it’s ok to discuss the way someone looks because you were implying you have to stare at someone to be able to do that.
Well, personally, I get embarrassed if someone notices me looking at them once and I’d be mortified if they noticed me looking a second time so I don’t let that happen, I think most people feel the same about that as well. And if someone was glancing at my sister then I wouldn’t mind at all, I’d probably make a joke of it and tell her that she has an admirer. If he was staring at her, and especially at her legs and feet I’d be less comfortable with it. "
Repeating myself again. I never mentioned I keep staring at the legs. I asked a question - if I take a few glances at legs, is that fine? You keep repeating that I am talking about staring at legs. I made it clear in my post that staring is wrong and it's creepy.
You said one view is enough for people to talk about it. And then I told you how people attracted to someone always tend to glance at them repeatedly given sufficient time. And no it's not always just face they look at. Different people get attracted to different features. And for your information, some people consider looking at the face as creepy too.
Anyway, I didn't start this thread to justify myself so that I can go and look at women all the time regularly. People's moral framework has been of great interest to me in the recent months after reading a couple of books.
I have discussed this topic with some friends multiple times and I was curious to know how fab users would feel about this. There are plenty of forum messages seen about how men "perv" on women's lingerie, swimwear, heels in public settings like beaches, pools, workplaces etc and women too doing the same with men's chest, hair body, legs etc. Hence I wanted to check where people draw a line. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
The answer from everyone of them is "I will probably take a couple of glances. But I won't be creepy about it." Everyone seems to make some distinction between looking creepily and just glancing.
What's your answer to it? Even if you find a person physically attractive, you will never wilfully look at that person again in an enclosed space over a period of time?
Yes, if I was in a restaurant and there was someone I was attracted to then I would glance at her more than once, I wouldn’t stare though and I certainly wouldn’t keep glancing at her legs and feet. If she noticed me glancing at her then I’d stop because I’d be worried that I’d be making her feel uncomfortable, getting caught looking at someone once is passable as a coincidence but if you get caught looking a second time then it looks pervy.
Do you really not see the difference between glancing at someone’s face a few times and repeatedly looking at someone’s legs and feet?
Now who has moved the goal post? First you said it's ok only to see once. Now it's ok to glance at face a few times? And stop watching them if you get caught? I thought your initial idea was built around whether you would find the idea of someone looking at your family member as fine?
No, what I said was that you only need to glance at someone a couple of times to know that you’re attracted to them and to be able to talk to your friends about them afterwards because you were saying it’s confusing that it’s wrong to stare but ok to discuss with your friends if you see someone you’re attracted to. I was saying you don’t need to stare at someone to be able to do that and you’d know from a couple of glances. I was just disproving your claim that it’s confusing that you shouldn’t stare at someone but it’s ok to discuss the way someone looks because you were implying you have to stare at someone to be able to do that.
Well, personally, I get embarrassed if someone notices me looking at them once and I’d be mortified if they noticed me looking a second time so I don’t let that happen, I think most people feel the same about that as well. And if someone was glancing at my sister then I wouldn’t mind at all, I’d probably make a joke of it and tell her that she has an admirer. If he was staring at her, and especially at her legs and feet I’d be less comfortable with it.
Repeating myself again. I never mentioned I keep staring at the legs. I asked a question - if I take a few glances at legs, is that fine? You keep repeating that I am talking about staring at legs. I made it clear in my post that staring is wrong and it's creepy.
You said one view is enough for people to talk about it. And then I told you how people attracted to someone always tend to glance at them repeatedly given sufficient time. And no it's not always just face they look at. Different people get attracted to different features. And for your information, some people consider looking at the face as creepy too.
Anyway, I didn't start this thread to justify myself so that I can go and look at women all the time regularly. People's moral framework has been of great interest to me in the recent months after reading a couple of books.
I have discussed this topic with some friends multiple times and I was curious to know how fab users would feel about this. There are plenty of forum messages seen about how men "perv" on women's lingerie, swimwear, heels in public settings like beaches, pools, workplaces etc and women too doing the same with men's chest, hair body, legs etc. Hence I wanted to check where people draw a line."
To be honest, it’s weird that it’s even something you need to ask, it’s like asking how loudly and how severely is it ok to swear in public or when is it ok to talk about sexual experiences or how close can you get to someone before you start invading their personal space, they’re just things you should know from what you’ve learned and been told while growing up and developing social skills. Of course we look at other people, no one goes around avoiding ever looking at another person, and not just people we’re attracted to, people are interesting and everyone’s unique so there’s always a level of interest to look at anyone. You shouldn’t need to be told what an acceptable amount to look at someone is, you should just know. You sound like someone who’s been locked away all their life and is just experiencing seeing women for the first time. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Anyway, I didn't start this thread to justify myself so that I can go and look at women all the time regularly. People's moral framework has been of great interest to me in the recent months after reading a couple of books.
I have discussed this topic with some friends multiple times and I was curious to know how fab users would feel about this. There are plenty of forum messages seen about how men "perv" on women's lingerie, swimwear, heels in public settings like beaches, pools, workplaces etc and women too doing the same with men's chest, hair body, legs etc. Hence I wanted to check where people draw a line.
To be honest, it’s weird that it’s even something you need to ask, it’s like asking how loudly and how severely is it ok to swear in public or when is it ok to talk about sexual experiences or how close can you get to someone before you start invading their personal space, they’re just things you should know from what you’ve learned and been told while growing up and developing social skills. Of course we look at other people, no one goes around avoiding ever looking at another person, and not just people we’re attracted to, people are interesting and everyone’s unique so there’s always a level of interest to look at anyone. You shouldn’t need to be told what an acceptable amount to look at someone is, you should just know. You sound like someone who’s been locked away all their life and is just experiencing seeing women for the first time. "
Well, even the examples you mentioned are not as simple and straightforward as you say. If you have travelled around the world and talk to people, you will know how different cultures consider things rights/wrong. That's exactly what the book explains too(The righteous mind is the name of the book).
For example, I have seen males getting naked in front of other males in men's dressing rooms in some swimming pools. But that is considered taboo in many Asian countries. It you go to Finland, it's the opposite where families, business colleagues and everyone share naked time in saunas.
Every society is different. It's ok to kiss in public here. But there are so many countries where you are not allowed to do that. The idea of personal space varies from society to society too.
You seem to be someone too narrow minded to have an intellectual debate with. You never read the original post properly. Your goal has been to insinuate me instead of the topic. Hard to debate with such people. Have a good night. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Anyway, I didn't start this thread to justify myself so that I can go and look at women all the time regularly. People's moral framework has been of great interest to me in the recent months after reading a couple of books.
I have discussed this topic with some friends multiple times and I was curious to know how fab users would feel about this. There are plenty of forum messages seen about how men "perv" on women's lingerie, swimwear, heels in public settings like beaches, pools, workplaces etc and women too doing the same with men's chest, hair body, legs etc. Hence I wanted to check where people draw a line.
To be honest, it’s weird that it’s even something you need to ask, it’s like asking how loudly and how severely is it ok to swear in public or when is it ok to talk about sexual experiences or how close can you get to someone before you start invading their personal space, they’re just things you should know from what you’ve learned and been told while growing up and developing social skills. Of course we look at other people, no one goes around avoiding ever looking at another person, and not just people we’re attracted to, people are interesting and everyone’s unique so there’s always a level of interest to look at anyone. You shouldn’t need to be told what an acceptable amount to look at someone is, you should just know. You sound like someone who’s been locked away all their life and is just experiencing seeing women for the first time.
Well, even the examples you mentioned are not as simple and straightforward as you say. If you have travelled around the world and talk to people, you will know how different cultures consider things rights/wrong. That's exactly what the book explains too(The righteous mind is the name of the book).
For example, I have seen males getting naked in front of other males in men's dressing rooms in some swimming pools. But that is considered taboo in many Asian countries. It you go to Finland, it's the opposite where families, business colleagues and everyone share naked time in saunas.
Every society is different. It's ok to kiss in public here. But there are so many countries where you are not allowed to do that. The idea of personal space varies from society to society too.
You seem to be someone too narrow minded to have an intellectual debate with. You never read the original post properly. Your goal has been to insinuate me instead of the topic. Hard to debate with such people. Have a good night."
You’re moving the goal posts again by introducing social etiquette in different cultures, it’s an impossible question to answer if you are considering every culture in the world. I assumed you were asking what’s acceptable in this country but I’m unable to tell you what’s acceptable in every country in the world. I don’t need to read a book to know that different cultures consider different things to be accepted and unacceptable. If you’re so in tune with what’s acceptable in different countries why did you have to ask how many times you can look at a woman’s legs and feet on a train, doesn’t it tell you that in your book anyway. It’s only hard for you to debate with me because I’ve dismissed everything you’ve said as being nonsense and you have to keep introducing new boundaries in order to make your points seem valid.
If I was you, I’d just avoid looking at women’s legs and feet on the train altogether, no matter how tempted and attracted to them you are, you’re just going to have to learn to control yourself so that you don’t embarrass yourself and make women feel uncomfortable. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Anyway, I didn't start this thread to justify myself so that I can go and look at women all the time regularly. People's moral framework has been of great interest to me in the recent months after reading a couple of books.
I have discussed this topic with some friends multiple times and I was curious to know how fab users would feel about this. There are plenty of forum messages seen about how men "perv" on women's lingerie, swimwear, heels in public settings like beaches, pools, workplaces etc and women too doing the same with men's chest, hair body, legs etc. Hence I wanted to check where people draw a line.
To be honest, it’s weird that it’s even something you need to ask, it’s like asking how loudly and how severely is it ok to swear in public or when is it ok to talk about sexual experiences or how close can you get to someone before you start invading their personal space, they’re just things you should know from what you’ve learned and been told while growing up and developing social skills. Of course we look at other people, no one goes around avoiding ever looking at another person, and not just people we’re attracted to, people are interesting and everyone’s unique so there’s always a level of interest to look at anyone. You shouldn’t need to be told what an acceptable amount to look at someone is, you should just know. You sound like someone who’s been locked away all their life and is just experiencing seeing women for the first time.
Well, even the examples you mentioned are not as simple and straightforward as you say. If you have travelled around the world and talk to people, you will know how different cultures consider things rights/wrong. That's exactly what the book explains too(The righteous mind is the name of the book).
For example, I have seen males getting naked in front of other males in men's dressing rooms in some swimming pools. But that is considered taboo in many Asian countries. It you go to Finland, it's the opposite where families, business colleagues and everyone share naked time in saunas.
Every society is different. It's ok to kiss in public here. But there are so many countries where you are not allowed to do that. The idea of personal space varies from society to society too.
You seem to be someone too narrow minded to have an intellectual debate with. You never read the original post properly. Your goal has been to insinuate me instead of the topic. Hard to debate with such people. Have a good night."
Ya seems to sum it up there. Everyone is different. Its hard to know what's right or wrong anymore. Obviously up to a limit. Think it's about reading the person and the signs they're putting out because I think most women will make it clear. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This has been an ethical dilemma that's been haunting me for long and I would like to hear what others think about it.
When it comes to approaching a woman, one can easily draw a line using consent. Talk to them. If they are interested, continue. If they are not interested, leave them alone.
But how about just seeing someone sexy in a public setting? I know that staring at them non-stop creepily is wrong. Is making an occasional glance ok? Where do you draw the line?
I personally have a thing for women's feet and legs. When I am in the train, in spite of trying hard to focus on the book I am reading, I get distracted by some nice looking feet and legs. Is it fine to steal glances once in awhile? What makes it ok or not ok?"
Good question. 
I believe it depends on what the person being looked at thinks of you. If they think you are hot, you looking at them is ok.
There is no way of knowing what they think of you though. So it could be considered creepy even by looking just once.
('You' being the person looking, not necessarily *you* OP.) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This has been an ethical dilemma that's been haunting me for long and I would like to hear what others think about it.
When it comes to approaching a woman, one can easily draw a line using consent. Talk to them. If they are interested, continue. If they are not interested, leave them alone.
But how about just seeing someone sexy in a public setting? I know that staring at them non-stop creepily is wrong. Is making an occasional glance ok? Where do you draw the line?
I personally have a thing for women's feet and legs. When I am in the train, in spite of trying hard to focus on the book I am reading, I get distracted by some nice looking feet and legs. Is it fine to steal glances once in awhile? What makes it ok or not ok?"
For me personally if it did happen and someone was checking me out and I noticed prolonged stares/looks it would make me feel uncomfortable.
Really, you don’t know if you are making the person uncomfortable unless they directly say to you, I would keep it at a appreciative glance and that’s it. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"This has been an ethical dilemma that's been haunting me for long and I would like to hear what others think about it.
When it comes to approaching a woman, one can easily draw a line using consent. Talk to them. If they are interested, continue. If they are not interested, leave them alone.
But how about just seeing someone sexy in a public setting? I know that staring at them non-stop creepily is wrong. Is making an occasional glance ok? Where do you draw the line?
I personally have a thing for women's feet and legs. When I am in the train, in spite of trying hard to focus on the book I am reading, I get distracted by some nice looking feet and legs. Is it fine to steal glances once in awhile? What makes it ok or not ok?
Good question.
I believe it depends on what the person being looked at thinks of you. If they think you are hot, you looking at them is ok.
There is no way of knowing what they think of you though. So it could be considered creepy even by looking just once.
('You' being the person looking, not necessarily *you* OP.)"
Thanks! That seems to be the common consensus. Given that there is no way to know if the other person is appreciative of the glance, it's better to avoid it altogether. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"This has been an ethical dilemma that's been haunting me for long and I would like to hear what others think about it.
When it comes to approaching a woman, one can easily draw a line using consent. Talk to them. If they are interested, continue. If they are not interested, leave them alone.
But how about just seeing someone sexy in a public setting? I know that staring at them non-stop creepily is wrong. Is making an occasional glance ok? Where do you draw the line?
I personally have a thing for women's feet and legs. When I am in the train, in spite of trying hard to focus on the book I am reading, I get distracted by some nice looking feet and legs. Is it fine to steal glances once in awhile? What makes it ok or not ok?
For me personally if it did happen and someone was checking me out and I noticed prolonged stares/looks it would make me feel uncomfortable.
Really, you don’t know if you are making the person uncomfortable unless they directly say to you, I would keep it at a appreciative glance and that’s it."
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The key considerations seem to be:
- getting caught, and
- how welcome / unwelcome tourists attentions might be
So admiring a really nice arse as to walk down the street is probably pretty low risk, for example.
The second point is more of a minefield. I once went to Henley regatta with a young neighbour and a few of her friends, just joining them for the first hour, first drink or two as I had other groups to meet up with later. In their own words. They had “got their tits out”, wearing dresses that barely contained their tits.
(No, I am not about to blame women for unwanted attention, merely stating that in this case the girls had dressed to attract attention).
First bloke we passed was a talk fit going rower, whose eyes were out on stalks as he observed 8 more or less bare tits bouncing towards him. The girls had shoulders back, binding towards him, making sure he got an eyeful, and then cracking up laughing as soon as they were past him, agreeing that he was hot. - few yards later, another bloke copped an eyeful, but the girls clearly decided that he wasn’t hot, made mock efforts to cover their tits up, going “euuggghhh”, and then agreeing that the guy was a creep.
This routine continued, trying to find hot guys to buy them drinks for the day, and flirt with.
So as far as I can figure out, whether or not you are ogling / perving depends to a decent extent on whether the person being looked at thinks you are attractive or not.
In everyday normal life though, women should be able to go about their daily life without having to constantly send signals to lads as to whether they can have a good gawp at their bodies or not.
As for looking at cleavage, a friend of mine once compared it to looking at the sun ... a quick glance won’t kill you but if you look directly at it, you’re fucked. |
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