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Gender issue
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"Sex is a fact. When we talk about male and female animals we don't talk about gender, we talk about their sex being either male or female. Gender is a concept that only seems to apply to humans. " So when opponents say gender is not fluid, they really mean sex is not fluid? A man is a man and a woman is a woman (accepting there are variances) but that is what we call sex? When we refer to what is in somebody's mind, that is gender, and that's fluid? So do we have a terminology issue here? | |||
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"Sex is a fact. When we talk about male and female animals we don't talk about gender, we talk about their sex being either male or female. Gender is a concept that only seems to apply to humans. So when opponents say gender is not fluid, they really mean sex is not fluid? A man is a man and a woman is a woman (accepting there are variances) but that is what we call sex? When we refer to what is in somebody's mind, that is gender, and that's fluid? So do we have a terminology issue here? " More of an ignorance issue.... ( and that's not referring to a particular person ) We all need educating, updating...... Takes time to comprehend. Ideas change far more quickly than minds. | |||
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"Sex is a fact. When we talk about male and female animals we don't talk about gender, we talk about their sex being either male or female. Gender is a concept that only seems to apply to humans. So when opponents say gender is not fluid, they really mean sex is not fluid? A man is a man and a woman is a woman (accepting there are variances) but that is what we call sex? When we refer to what is in somebody's mind, that is gender, and that's fluid? So do we have a terminology issue here? More of an ignorance issue.... ( and that's not referring to a particular person ) We all need educating, updating...... Takes time to comprehend. Ideas change far more quickly than minds. " That I agree. I think It’s all a very foreign concept for most. A bit like when people used to say they fell in love or attracted to people of the same sex! It used to be foreign but now it’s highly accepted and also understood and talked about x | |||
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"Here is a genuine query. I have had very little contact with non-binary people and am not at all clued up on that side of life. What I do know is that nature doesn't work the same way with everybody and I want to respect people as they are and not try to get them to fit into some box that other people say they should be in. There are people who say that gender is a fact and others who say it's fluid. Here's my understanding and I want to know whether people agree with this or not. Biological gender is a fact but that is not what the LGBT community disputes. What I think they are saying is that people don't always feel in their head what they are in their physical body. That is gender dysmorphia. When somebody with male body parts (for example) says they are a woman, they are not saying the are a woman biologically. They are saying that in their mind they are a woman but accept that their body isn't that way. Have I got that right? A friend of ours just watched this Dave Chapelle thing and said he is right that gender is a fact. But I think that's only biological gender. What goes on inside somebody's head can be completely different to their body. So the for and against people are talking past each other because they are talking about two different things. Have I got the gist right? " I get what you mean op. The way I see it is - it’s not absolutely necessary to completely understand something to respect it and to defend the rights of that person. The way I understand it is - if I looked in a mirror and saw a female - female features/genitalia/breasts etc - but inside my head, everything about me was screaming ‘but I’m a man!’ - that’s how I imagine it. And if I felt like that I imagine i’d do everything I could to make what I saw on the outside align with what I felt on the inside. That’s how I understand it myself. It’s not an explanation I’ve read or something I’ve researched - just my own gut feeling. Not sure whether this helps though op. | |||
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And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Here is a genuine query. I have had very little contact with non-binary people and am not at all clued up on that side of life. What I do know is that nature doesn't work the same way with everybody and I want to respect people as they are and not try to get them to fit into some box that other people say they should be in. There are people who say that gender is a fact and others who say it's fluid. Here's my understanding and I want to know whether people agree with this or not. Biological gender is a fact but that is not what the LGBT community disputes. What I think they are saying is that people don't always feel in their head what they are in their physical body. That is gender dysmorphia. When somebody with male body parts (for example) says they are a woman, they are not saying the are a woman biologically. They are saying that in their mind they are a woman but accept that their body isn't that way. Have I got that right? A friend of ours just watched this Dave Chapelle thing and said he is right that gender is a fact. But I think that's only biological gender. What goes on inside somebody's head can be completely different to their body. So the for and against people are talking past each other because they are talking about two different things. Have I got the gist right? I get what you mean op. The way I see it is - it’s not absolutely necessary to completely understand something to respect it and to defend the rights of that person. The way I understand it is - if I looked in a mirror and saw a female - female features/genitalia/breasts etc - but inside my head, everything about me was screaming ‘but I’m a man!’ - that’s how I imagine it. And if I felt like that I imagine i’d do everything I could to make what I saw on the outside align with what I felt on the inside. That’s how I understand it myself. It’s not an explanation I’ve read or something I’ve researched - just my own gut feeling. Not sure whether this helps though op. " Yes pretty much x that’s why most would tend to start removing the layers that remind us of our biologically sex. For women who will become men would be binding the breasts and shaving their hair etc For girls like me would be tucking and appearing more feminine. I literally hated my genitalia from the age of 4-5 as far as I can remember and I just wished it’d disappear on its own and I was very confused on why it was there and what it was. Not seeing anything would have made me feel better. Go and explain why is that! I can’t even explain myself why to be fair!! Just is/was | |||
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"We are in new social territory with this whole thing. Waters are muddy, emotions are high on both sides, trying to navigate through it feels impossible. More often than not, discussion is almost always impossible because on both sides there are those that become immovable and unwilling to discuss, and just want to yell their side as cold hard fact because it is their opinion
And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it. "I’m inclined to agree. I’ve no problem understanding someone with a huge urge to transition to a male/female (as in my post above). I haven’t, as yet, quite got my head around the non-binary issue and referring to someone as ‘they’. I guess I still see ‘they’ as more of a plural. However - in no way does this mean I don’t respect that person’s rights. | |||
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"We are in new social territory with this whole thing. Waters are muddy, emotions are high on both sides, trying to navigate through it feels impossible. More often than not, discussion is almost always impossible because on both sides there are those that become immovable and unwilling to discuss, and just want to yell their side as cold hard fact because it is their opinion
And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it. "It isn’t my opinion, it’s my reality. And yes maybe I’d be living my own delusion like many other people (really tho? As we go back centuries) And again I can only speak about my own experience and how I lived it. But hell I’m certainly not gonna have someone like Posie Parker come to me and tell me that I’m delusional. Because guess what, she hasn’t gone through what I’ve been through and still going through. And for some it’s literally hell and is something that might end some peoples lives because it’s a path that isn’t easy. So , I’m sorry but don’t call what I’ve been through an opinion . | |||
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"Here is a genuine query. I have had very little contact with non-binary people and am not at all clued up on that side of life. What I do know is that nature doesn't work the same way with everybody and I want to respect people as they are and not try to get them to fit into some box that other people say they should be in. There are people who say that gender is a fact and others who say it's fluid. Here's my understanding and I want to know whether people agree with this or not. Biological gender is a fact but that is not what the LGBT community disputes. What I think they are saying is that people don't always feel in their head what they are in their physical body. That is gender dysmorphia. When somebody with male body parts (for example) says they are a woman, they are not saying the are a woman biologically. They are saying that in their mind they are a woman but accept that their body isn't that way. Have I got that right? A friend of ours just watched this Dave Chapelle thing and said he is right that gender is a fact. But I think that's only biological gender. What goes on inside somebody's head can be completely different to their body. So the for and against people are talking past each other because they are talking about two different things. Have I got the gist right? I get what you mean op. The way I see it is - it’s not absolutely necessary to completely understand something to respect it and to defend the rights of that person. The way I understand it is - if I looked in a mirror and saw a female - female features/genitalia/breasts etc - but inside my head, everything about me was screaming ‘but I’m a man!’ - that’s how I imagine it. And if I felt like that I imagine i’d do everything I could to make what I saw on the outside align with what I felt on the inside. That’s how I understand it myself. It’s not an explanation I’ve read or something I’ve researched - just my own gut feeling. Not sure whether this helps though op. Yes pretty much x that’s why most would tend to start removing the layers that remind us of our biologically sex. For women who will become men would be binding the breasts and shaving their hair etc For girls like me would be tucking and appearing more feminine. I literally hated my genitalia from the age of 4-5 as far as I can remember and I just wished it’d disappear on its own and I was very confused on why it was there and what it was. Not seeing anything would have made me feel better. Go and explain why is that! I can’t even explain myself why to be fair!! Just is/was" Possibly because the voice screaming in your head was a woman - and a beautiful one at that. I do hope you’ve found total acceptance now my lovely - from yourself and others - and that ultimately you’ll find total happiness too!  | |||
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"Here is a genuine query. I have had very little contact with non-binary people and am not at all clued up on that side of life. What I do know is that nature doesn't work the same way with everybody and I want to respect people as they are and not try to get them to fit into some box that other people say they should be in. There are people who say that gender is a fact and others who say it's fluid. Here's my understanding and I want to know whether people agree with this or not. Biological gender is a fact but that is not what the LGBT community disputes. What I think they are saying is that people don't always feel in their head what they are in their physical body. That is gender dysmorphia. When somebody with male body parts (for example) says they are a woman, they are not saying the are a woman biologically. They are saying that in their mind they are a woman but accept that their body isn't that way. Have I got that right? A friend of ours just watched this Dave Chapelle thing and said he is right that gender is a fact. But I think that's only biological gender. What goes on inside somebody's head can be completely different to their body. So the for and against people are talking past each other because they are talking about two different things. Have I got the gist right? I get what you mean op. The way I see it is - it’s not absolutely necessary to completely understand something to respect it and to defend the rights of that person. The way I understand it is - if I looked in a mirror and saw a female - female features/genitalia/breasts etc - but inside my head, everything about me was screaming ‘but I’m a man!’ - that’s how I imagine it. And if I felt like that I imagine i’d do everything I could to make what I saw on the outside align with what I felt on the inside. That’s how I understand it myself. It’s not an explanation I’ve read or something I’ve researched - just my own gut feeling. Not sure whether this helps though op. Yes pretty much x that’s why most would tend to start removing the layers that remind us of our biologically sex. For women who will become men would be binding the breasts and shaving their hair etc For girls like me would be tucking and appearing more feminine. I literally hated my genitalia from the age of 4-5 as far as I can remember and I just wished it’d disappear on its own and I was very confused on why it was there and what it was. Not seeing anything would have made me feel better. Go and explain why is that! I can’t even explain myself why to be fair!! Just is/was Possibly because the voice screaming in your head was a woman - and a beautiful one at that. I do hope you’ve found total acceptance now my lovely - from yourself and others - and that ultimately you’ll find total happiness too! " thanks love x  I know for a fact somewhere along the way in my mums Tum
Tum, something didn’t go quite right 
And even tho sometimes I still wish in this life I’d have been born cis (would have been a lot easier), and in the next too. I’m glad to be me x  | |||
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"We are in new social territory with this whole thing. Waters are muddy, emotions are high on both sides, trying to navigate through it feels impossible. More often than not, discussion is almost always impossible because on both sides there are those that become immovable and unwilling to discuss, and just want to yell their side as cold hard fact because it is their opinion
And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it. "I agree with most of what you have said but I have to say that this is 'not new social territory' ..... I can't remember a time in life where society wasn't aware... Attitudes are changing but NEW it is not. | |||
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"We are in new social territory with this whole thing. Waters are muddy, emotions are high on both sides, trying to navigate through it feels impossible. More often than not, discussion is almost always impossible because on both sides there are those that become immovable and unwilling to discuss, and just want to yell their side as cold hard fact because it is their opinion
And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it.
It isn’t my opinion, it’s my reality. And yes maybe I’d be living my own delusion like many other people (really tho? As we go back centuries)
And again I can only speak about my own experience and how I lived it.
But hell I’m certainly not gonna have someone like Posie Parker come to me and tell me that I’m delusional. Because guess what, she hasn’t gone through what I’ve been through and still going through. And for some it’s literally hell and is something that might end some peoples lives because it’s a path that isn’t easy.
So , I’m sorry but don’t call what I’ve been through an opinion . "And just like that you have made my point. I made no specifics, you have come flying in with emotions high assuming that what I've said is about your specific situation and experiences. Essentially putting a barrier straight up that limits communication and places a distance to begin with by calling me out on something you have assumed I have done. There are opinions on both sides, there are facts on both sides. Neither side has the automatic right to be the correct side regardless of beliefs, opinions, or life experience. Nor should it be dismissed or stamped on like it is nothing. | |||
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"We are in new social territory with this whole thing. Waters are muddy, emotions are high on both sides, trying to navigate through it feels impossible. More often than not, discussion is almost always impossible because on both sides there are those that become immovable and unwilling to discuss, and just want to yell their side as cold hard fact because it is their opinion
And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it.
I agree with most of what you have said but I have to say that this is 'not new social territory' .....
I can't remember a time in life where society wasn't aware...
Attitudes are changing but NEW it is not. "It is new, it is not a new concept or something that just happened one day but it was never out there to be accepted. It was until recently kept out of society like something to be hidden or ashamed of. Now that it is almost an everyday interaction for a much larger number of the population it is new territory in front of them that they had never been exposed to | |||
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"We are in new social territory with this whole thing. Waters are muddy, emotions are high on both sides, trying to navigate through it feels impossible. More often than not, discussion is almost always impossible because on both sides there are those that become immovable and unwilling to discuss, and just want to yell their side as cold hard fact because it is their opinion
And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it.
It isn’t my opinion, it’s my reality. And yes maybe I’d be living my own delusion like many other people (really tho? As we go back centuries)
And again I can only speak about my own experience and how I lived it.
But hell I’m certainly not gonna have someone like Posie Parker come to me and tell me that I’m delusional. Because guess what, she hasn’t gone through what I’ve been through and still going through. And for some it’s literally hell and is something that might end some peoples lives because it’s a path that isn’t easy.
So , I’m sorry but don’t call what I’ve been through an opinion .
And just like that you have made my point. I made no specifics, you have come flying in with emotions high assuming that what I've said is about your specific situation and experiences. Essentially putting a barrier straight up that limits communication and places a distance to begin with by calling me out on something you have assumed I have done.
There are opinions on both sides, there are facts on both sides. Neither side has the automatic right to be the correct side regardless of beliefs, opinions, or life experience. Nor should it be dismissed or stamped on like it is nothing. "that’s because I have to fight my whole life for it , for something that people just take usually for granted (for the majority of lucky ones really) x I get easily fired and I don’t want to shove my own experience in peoples throat but having people (not saying you) like Posie fiercely invalidate my own life and feel righteous about it. Because that’s what it is. Is infuriating. She hasn’t lived in my shoes and yet, she has an opinion on how I’m being delusional. I’d love her to try having to fight explaining how she’s a woman and not just a fake/delusional person (how she likes to call us) | |||
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"We are in new social territory with this whole thing. Waters are muddy, emotions are high on both sides, trying to navigate through it feels impossible. More often than not, discussion is almost always impossible because on both sides there are those that become immovable and unwilling to discuss, and just want to yell their side as cold hard fact because it is their opinion
And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it.
It isn’t my opinion, it’s my reality. And yes maybe I’d be living my own delusion like many other people (really tho? As we go back centuries)
And again I can only speak about my own experience and how I lived it.
But hell I’m certainly not gonna have someone like Posie Parker come to me and tell me that I’m delusional. Because guess what, she hasn’t gone through what I’ve been through and still going through. And for some it’s literally hell and is something that might end some peoples lives because it’s a path that isn’t easy.
So , I’m sorry but don’t call what I’ve been through an opinion . "Posie Parker doesn't give any ground does she? Very black and white. She's very combative. Most "gender critical" people I've come across are very empathetic to those with gender dysphoria. It's really interesting to read your thoughts on this Kylie. I don't believe I have a gender identity, just a biological sex. But I can see absolutely that others do have a gender identity and that it's important to them. I try to educate myself about the issues but my god sometimes the rhetoric on both sides is a bit much. | |||
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"Sex is fixed at birth. Gender isn't necessarily. " Spot on. Came here to say this. | |||
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". " Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors | |||
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors "I'm confused. You seem to be saying I'm correct about biological sex but correcting what I said about gender but saying virtually the same as I said about gender? | |||
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
I'm confused. You seem to be saying I'm correct about biological sex but correcting what I said about gender but saying virtually the same as I said about gender? "No no im saying you are correct in what you said x I wanted to add more info x | |||
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
I'm confused. You seem to be saying I'm correct about biological sex but correcting what I said about gender but saying virtually the same as I said about gender?
No no im saying you are correct in what you said x I wanted to add more info x "Oh ok . As you were  | |||
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors "But that is simplistic, what about translocation of partial X or y chromosome material elsewhere and it's infinite variability on that. Plus whether those relocated genes are active or not. I watched a very interesting ted talk on gender (by a professor whom I fail to remember her name) on gender fluidity and sex, it's only in the human situation that this prescribed relationship gets people hot under the collar - nature finds ways to keep the genes going often in some very bizzare ways. | |||
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
But that is simplistic, what about translocation of partial X or y chromosome material elsewhere and it's infinite variability on that. Plus whether those relocated genes are active or not.
I watched a very interesting ted talk on gender (by a professor whom I fail to remember her name) on gender fluidity and sex, it's only in the human situation that this prescribed relationship gets people hot under the collar - nature finds ways to keep the genes going often in some very bizzare ways."I mean does anyone really ever care about chromosomes? (Apart from the ones who say… but really at the end of the day you are so and so ) I’m assuming what mine are but I mean I never done a test on chromosomes. I mean who has?
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
But that is simplistic, what about translocation of partial X or y chromosome material elsewhere and it's infinite variability on that. Plus whether those relocated genes are active or not.
I watched a very interesting ted talk on gender (by a professor whom I fail to remember her name) on gender fluidity and sex, it's only in the human situation that this prescribed relationship gets people hot under the collar - nature finds ways to keep the genes going often in some very bizzare ways.
I mean does anyone really ever care about chromosomes? (Apart from the ones who say… but really at the end of the day you are so and so )
I’m assuming what mine are but I mean I never done a test on chromosomes. I mean who has?
"That's something I always find amusing about the people who are all "it's simple genetics". Even if you ignore that gender isn't about genetics, 99.9% of us don't even know what sex chromosomes me have . There's also mostly only two options for hair colour but look at the huge variation there! | |||
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" Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors "Anything other than XX or XY is intersex or now called DSD (Differences in sex development). I've seen DSD used to argue that there can be more than two sexes but anyone with DSD is "assigned" male or female I think. A very complicated area. | |||
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" Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
Anything other than XX or XY is intersex or now called DSD (Differences in sex development). I've seen DSD used to argue that there can be more than two sexes but anyone with DSD is "assigned" male or female I think. A very complicated area. "Yes it’s either one or the other. I’ve heard some doctors who told stories of them delivering the intersex news to some adult patients when digging properly because somehow they couldn’t find out why they wouldn’t have periods. Fascinating. But also, bet that must hit  | |||
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"So, apologies in advance if at any time I get this wrong, I find it a bit of a minefield but I am learning. I have a child who identifies as non-binary. I, in fact we as a family, are all learning to use the correct pronouns for them. Some of us better than others. The way my child explained it to me, and I think I get this, is that if we look at gender as a spectrum with male and female at either end, then they are just a bit over the halfway mark but in the opposite half of the ‘sex’ they were born with. To me, that makes sense as they display lots of ‘traditional’ traits that you could expect from the ‘sex’ they were born with, but also have some that I wouldn’t expect. In the end, it should be down to the individual to be able to identify how they see fit. And any utter cockwomble who feels the urge to then hit out with ‘can I identify as a chair then?’ Should crawl back into the cave they currently live in. As I said, apologies if I’ve offended anyone, except the cockwombles, I just feel strongly that my child should be able to live the life they want, identifying as they feel they are. "
May I ask just out of curiosity how old are they? X
They are very lucky to have parents like you who are totally open and accepting x
Mine didn’t really have too many instruments in their hands to help me out properly when I was young x | |||
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"So, apologies in advance if at any time I get this wrong, I find it a bit of a minefield but I am learning. I have a child who identifies as non-binary. I, in fact we as a family, are all learning to use the correct pronouns for them. Some of us better than others. The way my child explained it to me, and I think I get this, is that if we look at gender as a spectrum with male and female at either end, then they are just a bit over the halfway mark but in the opposite half of the ‘sex’ they were born with. To me, that makes sense as they display lots of ‘traditional’ traits that you could expect from the ‘sex’ they were born with, but also have some that I wouldn’t expect. In the end, it should be down to the individual to be able to identify how they see fit. And any utter cockwomble who feels the urge to then hit out with ‘can I identify as a chair then?’ Should crawl back into the cave they currently live in. As I said, apologies if I’ve offended anyone, except the cockwombles, I just feel strongly that my child should be able to live the life they want, identifying as they feel they are.
May I ask just out of curiosity how old are they? X
They are very lucky to have parents like you who are totally open and accepting x
Mine didn’t really have too many instruments in their hands to help me out properly when I was young x "Just about to turn 16. We’ve been trying (failing at times) to deal with this for the past 5/6 years, so can no longer say that it may be a phase. I (Mr) still struggle with pronouns, but we are getting there with it all. | |||
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"So, apologies in advance if at any time I get this wrong, I find it a bit of a minefield but I am learning. I have a child who identifies as non-binary. I, in fact we as a family, are all learning to use the correct pronouns for them. Some of us better than others. The way my child explained it to me, and I think I get this, is that if we look at gender as a spectrum with male and female at either end, then they are just a bit over the halfway mark but in the opposite half of the ‘sex’ they were born with. To me, that makes sense as they display lots of ‘traditional’ traits that you could expect from the ‘sex’ they were born with, but also have some that I wouldn’t expect. In the end, it should be down to the individual to be able to identify how they see fit. And any utter cockwomble who feels the urge to then hit out with ‘can I identify as a chair then?’ Should crawl back into the cave they currently live in. As I said, apologies if I’ve offended anyone, except the cockwombles, I just feel strongly that my child should be able to live the life they want, identifying as they feel they are.
May I ask just out of curiosity how old are they? X
They are very lucky to have parents like you who are totally open and accepting x
Mine didn’t really have too many instruments in their hands to help me out properly when I was young x
Just about to turn 16. We’ve been trying (failing at times) to deal with this for the past 5/6 years, so can no longer say that it may be a phase.
I (Mr) still struggle with pronouns, but we are getting there with it all. "I’m sure that as long as you try with the pronouns and you show that you are trying your best, then they will be grateful for it! 
I can’t really say much about non binary “issues”, but yeah just listen to them and their experiences. And be open
And fuck off the ones who do the attack helicopter joke analogy …
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" Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
Anything other than XX or XY is intersex or now called DSD (Differences in sex development). I've seen DSD used to argue that there can be more than two sexes but anyone with DSD is "assigned" male or female I think. A very complicated area.
Yes it’s either one or the other.
I’ve heard some doctors who told stories of them delivering the intersex news to some adult patients when digging properly because somehow they couldn’t find out why they wouldn’t have periods. Fascinating. But also, bet that must hit "Oh it must. I was reading an interview with a guy who has been diagnosed with a DSD in his 30s and it turned everything upside down for him.  | |||
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"So, apologies in advance if at any time I get this wrong, I find it a bit of a minefield but I am learning. I have a child who identifies as non-binary. I, in fact we as a family, are all learning to use the correct pronouns for them. Some of us better than others. The way my child explained it to me, and I think I get this, is that if we look at gender as a spectrum with male and female at either end, then they are just a bit over the halfway mark but in the opposite half of the ‘sex’ they were born with. To me, that makes sense as they display lots of ‘traditional’ traits that you could expect from the ‘sex’ they were born with, but also have some that I wouldn’t expect. In the end, it should be down to the individual to be able to identify how they see fit. And any utter cockwomble who feels the urge to then hit out with ‘can I identify as a chair then?’ Should crawl back into the cave they currently live in. As I said, apologies if I’ve offended anyone, except the cockwombles, I just feel strongly that my child should be able to live the life they want, identifying as they feel they are.
May I ask just out of curiosity how old are they? X
They are very lucky to have parents like you who are totally open and accepting x
Mine didn’t really have too many instruments in their hands to help me out properly when I was young x
Just about to turn 16. We’ve been trying (failing at times) to deal with this for the past 5/6 years, so can no longer say that it may be a phase.
I (Mr) still struggle with pronouns, but we are getting there with it all. "That does sound hard for your family to deal with. My dd said she's not a girl, but gender fluid now. No pronoun change though. Although presents always as femme so I can't know what's happening in her head. And came out as pansexual earlier this year. I just try to play it by ear and talk about things. Finding her way. | |||
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
But that is simplistic, what about translocation of partial X or y chromosome material elsewhere and it's infinite variability on that. Plus whether those relocated genes are active or not.
I watched a very interesting ted talk on gender (by a professor whom I fail to remember her name) on gender fluidity and sex, it's only in the human situation that this prescribed relationship gets people hot under the collar - nature finds ways to keep the genes going often in some very bizzare ways.
I mean does anyone really ever care about chromosomes? (Apart from the ones who say… but really at the end of the day you are so and so )
I’m assuming what mine are but I mean I never done a test on chromosomes. I mean who has?
"Me, but then my first job was in a cytogenetic lab in a London teaching hospital  | |||
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"Kind of. Biological gender isn't a thing though. I think you mean biological sex. Biological sex is more fixed than gender. It forms a double bell curve so most people fit mostly under one peak or the other with genetic variances causing variations in sex characteristics such as amount of facial/body hair, breast size, depth of voice, height, build, etc. There are still a small number of people that exist between the peaks. Gender on the other hand is more about how we feel in our heads. Different cultures have different ideas about gender and gender expression. Some have more rigid ideas about gender, some consider there to be more genders than others, some don't even consider there to be distinct gender "categories". Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
But that is simplistic, what about translocation of partial X or y chromosome material elsewhere and it's infinite variability on that. Plus whether those relocated genes are active or not.
I watched a very interesting ted talk on gender (by a professor whom I fail to remember her name) on gender fluidity and sex, it's only in the human situation that this prescribed relationship gets people hot under the collar - nature finds ways to keep the genes going often in some very bizzare ways.
I mean does anyone really ever care about chromosomes? (Apart from the ones who say… but really at the end of the day you are so and so )
I’m assuming what mine are but I mean I never done a test on chromosomes. I mean who has?
Me, but then my first job was in a cytogenetic lab in a London teaching hospital "Ahhh - that’ll be how you know you’re just a man then! | |||
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"Tbh I think the confusion is not genuine - it's trying to poison the well. I'll agree that for *most* people, biological sex is fixed (some people have physiological or chromosomal abnormality and are shoved into categories shortly, often shortly after birth). But to me that's a separate issue from identity and how one lives their lives. I have ovaries. So what? It doesn't play any role in my personality, preferences, strengths and weaknesses. It plays no role in the gender I am drawn to (in my case as I'm not non binary). The fact that people tend to be born with XX or XY chromosomes and genitalia which are not deformed, to me is trivially true but unhelpful when thinking about how people are in the world. Really. So what?" Well said and stated. I agree | |||
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" Me, but then my first job was in a cytogenetic lab in a London teaching hospital
Ahhh - that’ll be how you know you’re just a man then! " | |||
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"Tbh I think the confusion is not genuine - it's trying to poison the well. I'll agree that for *most* people, biological sex is fixed (some people have physiological or chromosomal abnormality and are shoved into categories shortly, often shortly after birth). But to me that's a separate issue from identity and how one lives their lives. I have ovaries. So what? It doesn't play any role in my personality, preferences, strengths and weaknesses. It plays no role in the gender I am drawn to (in my case as I'm not non binary). The fact that people tend to be born with XX or XY chromosomes and genitalia which are not deformed, to me is trivially true but unhelpful when thinking about how people are in the world. Really. So what? Well said and stated. I agree "So agree with the comment above x | |||
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"So, apologies in advance if at any time I get this wrong, I find it a bit of a minefield but I am learning. I have a child who identifies as non-binary. I, in fact we as a family, are all learning to use the correct pronouns for them. Some of us better than others. The way my child explained it to me, and I think I get this, is that if we look at gender as a spectrum with male and female at either end, then they are just a bit over the halfway mark but in the opposite half of the ‘sex’ they were born with. To me, that makes sense as they display lots of ‘traditional’ traits that you could expect from the ‘sex’ they were born with, but also have some that I wouldn’t expect. In the end, it should be down to the individual to be able to identify how they see fit. And any utter cockwomble who feels the urge to then hit out with ‘can I identify as a chair then?’ Should crawl back into the cave they currently live in. As I said, apologies if I’ve offended anyone, except the cockwombles, I just feel strongly that my child should be able to live the life they want, identifying as they feel they are.
May I ask just out of curiosity how old are they? X
They are very lucky to have parents like you who are totally open and accepting x
Mine didn’t really have too many instruments in their hands to help me out properly when I was young x
Just about to turn 16. We’ve been trying (failing at times) to deal with this for the past 5/6 years, so can no longer say that it may be a phase.
I (Mr) still struggle with pronouns, but we are getting there with it all.
That does sound hard for your family to deal with. My dd said she's not a girl, but gender fluid now. No pronoun change though. Although presents always as femme so I can't know what's happening in her head. And came out as pansexual earlier this year. I just try to play it by ear and talk about things. Finding her way. "Not that difficult for the rest of the family, but definitely different. It has been difficult to process for our child though. They are now in a place that they are comfortable, so we are too. | |||
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"So, apologies in advance if at any time I get this wrong, I find it a bit of a minefield but I am learning. I have a child who identifies as non-binary. I, in fact we as a family, are all learning to use the correct pronouns for them. Some of us better than others. The way my child explained it to me, and I think I get this, is that if we look at gender as a spectrum with male and female at either end, then they are just a bit over the halfway mark but in the opposite half of the ‘sex’ they were born with. To me, that makes sense as they display lots of ‘traditional’ traits that you could expect from the ‘sex’ they were born with, but also have some that I wouldn’t expect. In the end, it should be down to the individual to be able to identify how they see fit. And any utter cockwomble who feels the urge to then hit out with ‘can I identify as a chair then?’ Should crawl back into the cave they currently live in. As I said, apologies if I’ve offended anyone, except the cockwombles, I just feel strongly that my child should be able to live the life they want, identifying as they feel they are.
May I ask just out of curiosity how old are they? X
They are very lucky to have parents like you who are totally open and accepting x
Mine didn’t really have too many instruments in their hands to help me out properly when I was young x
Just about to turn 16. We’ve been trying (failing at times) to deal with this for the past 5/6 years, so can no longer say that it may be a phase.
I (Mr) still struggle with pronouns, but we are getting there with it all.
That does sound hard for your family to deal with. My dd said she's not a girl, but gender fluid now. No pronoun change though. Although presents always as femme so I can't know what's happening in her head. And came out as pansexual earlier this year. I just try to play it by ear and talk about things. Finding her way.
Not that difficult for the rest of the family, but definitely different. It has been difficult to process for our child though. They are now in a place that they are comfortable, so we are too. "Ah that's great to hear. I solo parent, hope I'm giving enough support for my child/ren with this. | |||
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"I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see some noxious "both sides" posts in here. One side wants to exist, have rights, and get on with their lives. The other side wants to deny them their rights, their existence, and in too many cases, their lives as well. If you think those two positions are morally equivalent, you've already chosen a side, and it's the wrong one. " Thanks for this xx
I’ve got nothing more to add x | |||
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"I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see some noxious "both sides" posts in here. One side wants to exist, have rights, and get on with their lives. The other side wants to deny them their rights, their existence, and in too many cases, their lives as well. If you think those two positions are morally equivalent, you've already chosen a side, and it's the wrong one. " Well said. | |||
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"I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see some noxious "both sides" posts in here. One side wants to exist, have rights, and get on with their lives. The other side wants to deny them their rights, their existence, and in too many cases, their lives as well. If you think those two positions are morally equivalent, you've already chosen a side, and it's the wrong one. " | |||
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"I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see some noxious "both sides" posts in here. One side wants to exist, have rights, and get on with their lives. The other side wants to deny them their rights, their existence, and in too many cases, their lives as well. If you think those two positions are morally equivalent, you've already chosen a side, and it's the wrong one. " Prejudice being disguised as discussion | |||
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"I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see some noxious "both sides" posts in here. One side wants to exist, have rights, and get on with their lives. The other side wants to deny them their rights, their existence, and in too many cases, their lives as well. If you think those two positions are morally equivalent, you've already chosen a side, and it's the wrong one. " We were all having a calm and reasoned discussion. Your problem? | |||
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"I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see some noxious "both sides" posts in here. One side wants to exist, have rights, and get on with their lives. The other side wants to deny them their rights, their existence, and in too many cases, their lives as well. If you think those two positions are morally equivalent, you've already chosen a side, and it's the wrong one. We were all having a calm and reasoned discussion. Your problem? " One side seems to revel is the presumption that they are hated for some reason.. and they really are not .. | |||
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"I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see some noxious "both sides" posts in here. One side wants to exist, have rights, and get on with their lives. The other side wants to deny them their rights, their existence, and in too many cases, their lives as well. If you think those two positions are morally equivalent, you've already chosen a side, and it's the wrong one. " No, it's the ability to observe things from multiple angles without being biased but still in support of something. It is entirely possible to do so, most people shut themselves off from it though because they can't deal with doing so. A form of unbiased empathy and devil's advocate personality trait. The smartest person in a conversation is the one who listens. I am very much open to anyone of any sex or gender that is willing to discuss regardless of their side of the view. It doesn't mean I support them. I am able to be in in support of a cause while still allowing myself to be open to what another side has to say. Doesn't mean I won't shoot them down if they cross a line or step up to defend against their own limited view. Anthony Mackie had an amazing interview in which he brings things up about listening and talking, and discussing. He does so about race but it is so much more than just applied to race. "it's not your first thought that makes you a racist, it's your second, third, and fourth". Extremism exists on both sides (yes both sides) that can turn ugly. Daphne Dorman is proof of that when she was bullied to the point of suicide by the same people that should be the safest community for her because she stood up for her own opinion that did not align with theirs. | |||
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"I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see some noxious "both sides" posts in here. One side wants to exist, have rights, and get on with their lives. The other side wants to deny them their rights, their existence, and in too many cases, their lives as well. If you think those two positions are morally equivalent, you've already chosen a side, and it's the wrong one. No, it's the ability to observe things from multiple angles without being biased but still in support of something. It is entirely possible to do so, most people shut themselves off from it though because they can't deal with doing so. A form of unbiased empathy and devil's advocate personality trait. The smartest person in a conversation is the one who listens. I am very much open to anyone of any sex or gender that is willing to discuss regardless of their side of the view. It doesn't mean I support them. I am able to be in in support of a cause while still allowing myself to be open to what another side has to say. Doesn't mean I won't shoot them down if they cross a line or step up to defend against their own limited view. Anthony Mackie had an amazing interview in which he brings things up about listening and talking, and discussing. He does so about race but it is so much more than just applied to race. "it's not your first thought that makes you a racist, it's your second, third, and fourth". Extremism exists on both sides (yes both sides) that can turn ugly. Daphne Dorman is proof of that when she was bullied to the point of suicide by the same people that should be the safest community for her because she stood up for her own opinion that did not align with theirs. " I really like this. Im so tired of the extremism. And shutting down of open discussion that is much needed. I'm sure I have more to learn. | |||
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"Gender is a social construct, it can be anything you choose , a rusty spoon if you like, it will be fine altogether soon, biological sex is for 99.99% of people male or female " Did you really have to go to rusty spoon example? I’m sorry to say but I’ve not particularly chosen to be a certain way. Or better, My only choice was when I let go of the fear and the self hate I had for being myself , and decided to live my life as my brain always seen my core, since I can remember. I haven’t chosen a character from the street fighter rooster That was Probably the hardest but most rewarding choice I made and will ever have to make in my life. Because I chose me. | |||
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" Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
Anything other than XX or XY is intersex or now called DSD (Differences in sex development). I've seen DSD used to argue that there can be more than two sexes but anyone with DSD is "assigned" male or female I think. A very complicated area. "I think this does a decent job of explaining the difference between what many people would think of intersex (ambiguous external or internal genitalia) vs differences in sex chromosome number, which does not always lead to ambiguous observable male or female sex. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/ For example, most people who are 45XO (Turner syndrome). have external female features (internal structures may or may not be present) and 47XXY (Klinefelter syndrome) almost all have observable male external genitals. Whether having one set of genitals makes you male or female is, however, perhaps the very essence of the issue. Just because someone has 46 chromosomes, two of them X and Y with "normal" male genitals, does not mean they feel "male" in terms of the gender they inhabit. | |||
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" Yes on the biological sex There are 5 variations of chromosomes (I had to Google it) X – Roughly 1 in 2,000 to 1 in 5,000 people (Turner’s ) XX – Most common form of female. XXY – Roughly 1 in 500 to 1 in 1,000 people (Klinefelter) XY – Most common form of male. XYY – Roughly 1 out of 1,000 people. XXXY – Roughly 1 in 18,000 to 1 in 50,000 births. I guess it counts some intersexes etc. But you got it right, sex is what you are born as factually. The brain is where gender is and where it’s determined. A lot of the time it matches with the rest of the chromosomes and genitalia etc. some time it fails and it doesn’t (tho the percentage is very low) due to many factors
Anything other than XX or XY is intersex or now called DSD (Differences in sex development). I've seen DSD used to argue that there can be more than two sexes but anyone with DSD is "assigned" male or female I think. A very complicated area.
I think this does a decent job of explaining the difference between what many people would think of intersex (ambiguous external or internal genitalia) vs differences in sex chromosome number, which does not always lead to ambiguous observable male or female sex. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/
For example, most people who are 45XO (Turner syndrome). have external female features (internal structures may or may not be present) and 47XXY (Klinefelter syndrome) almost all have observable male external genitals.
Whether having one set of genitals makes you male or female is, however, perhaps the very essence of the issue. Just because someone has 46 chromosomes, two of them X and Y with "normal" male genitals, does not mean they feel "male" in terms of the gender they inhabit. "Exactly x | |||
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"I don't seek validation from strangers! Live your life and be yourself, If others don't like it well they can f*** themselves quite frankly. We are a long time dead to care! Lol "But Queenie, It’s not about validation. I don’t need people to tell me “oh Kylie but u are a woman” to feel valid. I know who I am and that I’m just Kylie, who feels and thinks and IS a certain way. End of x | |||
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"I don't seek validation from strangers! Live your life and be yourself, If others don't like it well they can f*** themselves quite frankly. We are a long time dead to care! Lol
But Queenie, It’s not about validation. I don’t need people to tell me “oh Kylie but u are a woman” to feel valid. I know who I am and that I’m just Kylie, who feels and thinks and IS a certain way. End of x "I meant me personally! In general no one needs validation from anyone. Not everything is about you i never even mentioned your name. Lots of trans girls on here not just you lol end of | |||
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"Girls will be boys and boys will be girls, It’s a mixed up, mouled up, shook up World... On a more serious note, it can be all ever so simple IF only peeps would simply show a lot more compassion and simply “live and let live”. Unfortunately, we don’t live in an ideal World and discrimination seems to be a cancer we cannot seem to eradicate. "Amen well said! | |||
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"We are in new social territory with this whole thing. Waters are muddy, emotions are high on both sides, trying to navigate through it feels impossible. More often than not, discussion is almost always impossible because on both sides there are those that become immovable and unwilling to discuss, and just want to yell their side as cold hard fact because it is their opinion
And yes, both sides are just as bad - not everyone on both sides but there are certainly extremists and their beliefs make things all the harder to allow a true discussion and actual learning to take place.
The Sex and Gender thing for example really needs to be expressed more and in better ways for some people to grasp it.
It isn’t my opinion, it’s my reality. And yes maybe I’d be living my own delusion like many other people (really tho? As we go back centuries)
And again I can only speak about my own experience and how I lived it.
But hell I’m certainly not gonna have someone like Posie Parker come to me and tell me that I’m delusional. Because guess what, she hasn’t gone through what I’ve been through and still going through. And for some it’s literally hell and is something that might end some peoples lives because it’s a path that isn’t easy.
So , I’m sorry but don’t call what I’ve been through an opinion .
Posie Parker doesn't give any ground does she? Very black and white. She's very combative. Most "gender critical" people I've come across are very empathetic to those with gender dysphoria. It's really interesting to read your thoughts on this Kylie. I don't believe I have a gender identity, just a biological sex. But I can see absolutely that others do have a gender identity and that it's important to them. I try to educate myself about the issues but my god sometimes the rhetoric on both sides is a bit much. "The way to think about it is that you do have a gender identity, but because it is fully aligned with the way your body developed, you aren't specifically aware of it as a separate thing. Which is fine, and is the case for many, many people. The biological sex thing is also a bit more complicated than many realise. We all start off as a fertilized egg, which has (normally) 46 chromosomes arranged as 23 pairs. As the egg divides and redivides these chromosomes get copied into every cell of the body. However as people have detailed above, there can be various non-standard arrangements of the sex chromosome pair, and there can also be non-standard arrangements of other chromosome pairs (eg. Downs syndrome is caused by having 3 copies of chromosome number 11). As the body develops in the womb, non-standard chromosome combinations may result in organs growing differently to the expected standard "male" or "female" templates. Sometimes there will be externally visible differences, but sometimes there may only be internal differences, and the body might seem perfectly ordinary to external examination. It is also possible for a egg with perfectly normal chromosomes to develop abnormally due to the mother sustaining trauma or exposure to hormones, chemicals etc during certain phases of growth. So physically it is possible to have non-standard genetics but perfectly ordinary looking body, or standard genetics but unexpected body, or any combination. Also up until very recently it was standard practice that if a baby was found to have "unusual" genitals at birth, doctors would do a bit of "tidying up" surgery and sometimes never even tell the parents. Gender identity is to do with the development of self image during growth of the person, and is sort of an "in the brain" thing. But this will be affected by all of the persons genetics, the development in the womb exposed to the mothers hormones and environmental chemicals, post natal environmental influence, social influence and experience... a million and one things. Mostly a person will develop a self image of their gender that matches the external configuration of their genitals, but not always. And it is quite possible for someone to develop an identity that is not congruent with either of the "standard" society roles of male and female. Gender identity can wander one way and the other through a persons life, it might change slowly or quickly. It can be influenced by emotional states, physical trauma, sexual experience... Anything that can affect a persons self image, their identity, might have an effect on the way they view their gender. Then we get onto sexuality, the things you like doing with your genitals and the type of genitals you like on the people you want to do it with. And romantic attraction, which might or might not correspond with the type of sexual attraction you have to other people. So genetics, body development, brain development, emotional development, body exterior, body interior, social experience, sexual experience, romantic experience - all of these have an effect on the totality of our identity, one part of which is our gender identity. Every person is unique, every identity is unique, all are perfectly valid. Some people's identities we feel that we understand, because they have sufficient common ground with our own identity. Some people's identities differ so much from our own that we find it difficult to relate to them. We may not understand the way they feel, but in no way is their identity invalid, it is just one that there is less common ground. Another essay from Polly lol. Hopefully not too boring, and maybe even interesting to some. Xxx | |||
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"Just came here to say did anyone see the professor on question time debating the issue of sex and gender? Prof Robert winston I think he was called he did all the child of our time documentaries. " I haven’t seen a question time in ages! X when was this? | |||
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"Both-sidesers love to use a lot of words to fail to address the point, don't they? " Please enlighten us and address the point for us concisely .. | |||
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"Both-sidesers love to use a lot of words to fail to address the point, don't they? " I remember why I blocked you now. You do this on every thread about trans or gender issues. I am really interested in hearing from Kylie and Polly and others but your rigid mantras just make it unpleasant. | |||
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"Both-sidesers love to use a lot of words to fail to address the point, don't they? I remember why I blocked you now. You do this on every thread about trans or gender issues. I am really interested in hearing from Kylie and Polly and others but your rigid mantras just make it unpleasant. " It’s incredible how he literally added nothing to the conversation
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"Just came here to say did anyone see the professor on question time debating the issue of sex and gender? Prof Robert winston I think he was called he did all the child of our time documentaries. " I had a look and yeah the professor didn’t say too much (maybe Fiona Bruce just barged in to cut him off too quick) but yeah I mean what’s not to agree? I don’t think anyone has ever claimed that biological sex can be changed. Hence why trans gender . Meaning going from one gender to the other. Biologically still the same. (And guys I never claimed to be a bio woman - I only wish I was it’d have been easier) Only aligning as best as I can my brain (where gender is formed) with my body! And you guys, I swear there’s no better feeling in this world than being at peace with ur soul and body .. even if I still have hard days when my dysph is at peak (I’m not saying it used to be hell back then, but thinking back. I just was a deeply sad person who mistreated her own body without realising) | |||
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"Having said that I’m gonna bow out now as I think I’ve said my thing and I only end up getting upset x so be kind guys xx " | |||
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"Just came here to say did anyone see the professor on question time debating the issue of sex and gender? Prof Robert winston I think he was called he did all the child of our time documentaries. I had a look and yeah the professor didn’t say too much (maybe Fiona Bruce just barged in to cut him off too quick) but yeah I mean what’s not to agree? I don’t think anyone has ever claimed that biological sex can be changed. Hence why trans gender . Meaning going from one gender to the other. Biologically still the same. (And guys I never claimed to be a bio woman - I only wish I was it’d have been easier) Only aligning as best as I can my brain (where gender is formed) with my body! And you guys, I swear there’s no better feeling in this world than being at peace with ur soul and body .. even if I still have hard days when my dysph is at peak (I’m not saying it used to be hell back then, but thinking back. I just was a deeply sad person who mistreated her own body without realising)" Hugs Kylie! | |||
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"Having said that I’m gonna bow out now as I think I’ve said my thing and I only end up getting upset x so be kind guys xx " | |||
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"Having said that I’m gonna bow out now as I think I’ve said my thing and I only end up getting upset x so be kind guys xx " Hugs x | |||
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"Having said that I’m gonna bow out now as I think I’ve said my thing and I only end up getting upset x so be kind guys xx " And it was said well. | |||
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"Having said that I’m gonna bow out now as I think I’ve said my thing and I only end up getting upset x so be kind guys xx And it was said well. " I agree. I was enjoying Kylie's insight. | |||
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"Here is my 2 pence worth as I see things from my little space on the trans spectrum ( I have a whole backstory for another time) As I see things and thankfully Polly has gone into detail where things go right and wrong in the womb, trans for me is like a deformity if you will (hear me out as I mean no harm or insult with this).... We can all accept that things happen in the womb, mostly it works out as expected so you get a wonderful boy or girl as expected with no neural issues but sometimes it goes awry. You get limbs missing, downs syndrome, dwarfism, heaven forbid they come out gay or bi and often there are mental problems too. All of these we can agree are real and thankfully there is help to deal with it and make life comfortable and whole for the person it happens to. Trans is one of these issues that happen and it is also very real, now you can't give counselling to get rid of it as it's simply hard wired into that person the same as depression or any other mental non conformity so the alternative is not much different to replacing a missing limb, you make the body match the brain to give that person the quality of life they should have. Its not a kink, a fetish or a sexual urge, it's that person's sense of self. Anyone on the trans scale knows the risk of losing family, friends, jobs and even their life because they're trans and the only option they have is how they come out and be who they are because they must do it to be who they are. Why can you think that bi polar disorder that you cannot see is a real thing but not transgender? Its a chromosome mix up in utero which the person has zero control over but many think it is OK to deny them the medical help they need and that medical help comes in the form of hormones and surgery among other things. Learn a little before you decide on another persons life please, you wouldn't think it was OK to do the same to a person with an accepted mental non conformity so why is it OK to to so with a trans person because you cannot see that it is a mental gender issue and not a sexual one." Much love. | |||
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"I am struggling to understand much about it. As Kietonel said (and I love the way you debate btw) there are many "facts" and very strong opinions on both sides - I would change that to all sides as it certainly isn't a binary issue (no pun intended) So where I struggle. Feminism (I'm using the team loosely, I know not all feminists believe the same) has spent a long time telling us that there are no differences between men and women. The trans community agree and say gender is purely a social construct. So if these two are true, it can only mean that feeling the wrong gender to one's biological sex is purely a mental issue. The person concerned has an image of a gender (which doesn't actually exist outside the society they're in). By their own definition, trans people identify with a social construct. This is where I have sympathy with the arguments that this is no different to saying I feel like a tree/goldfish. As Sexycatkylie says, this idea is insulting to her experience. I hope I have this right Sck, you identify with the female gender and passionately believe that this gender is a real thing - on this thread and others you have spoken of studies that show trans women and biological women share similar brain activation patterns etc. I'm inclined to believe the same, but am aware that this is due in part to social conditioning that there is a difference between men and women. I'm also aware that to believe someone has a "female brain" (or the opposite) is to challenge a lot of work that has been done to show the complete opposite - that in fact there are no inherent differences. It is never my intention to cause hurt and I know I have had some criticism in the past when asking questions but I am genuinely asking from a position of ignorance. This doesnt mean that I will accept the opinion or lived experience of any individual as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as clearly there are individuals with mutually exclusive lived experiences. Mr" Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. " Nor have I tbh. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. " Me neither | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither" Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr | |||
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"I am struggling to understand much about it. As Kietonel said (and I love the way you debate btw) there are many "facts" and very strong opinions on both sides - I would change that to all sides as it certainly isn't a binary issue (no pun intended) So where I struggle. Feminism (I'm using the team loosely, I know not all feminists believe the same) has spent a long time telling us that there are no differences between men and women. The trans community agree and say gender is purely a social construct. So if these two are true, it can only mean that feeling the wrong gender to one's biological sex is purely a mental issue. The person concerned has an image of a gender (which doesn't actually exist outside the society they're in). By their own definition, trans people identify with a social construct. This is where I have sympathy with the arguments that this is no different to saying I feel like a tree/goldfish. As Sexycatkylie says, this idea is insulting to her experience. I hope I have this right Sck, you identify with the female gender and passionately believe that this gender is a real thing - on this thread and others you have spoken of studies that show trans women and biological women share similar brain activation patterns etc. I'm inclined to believe the same, but am aware that this is due in part to social conditioning that there is a difference between men and women. I'm also aware that to believe someone has a "female brain" (or the opposite) is to challenge a lot of work that has been done to show the complete opposite - that in fact there are no inherent differences. It is never my intention to cause hurt and I know I have had some criticism in the past when asking questions but I am genuinely asking from a position of ignorance. This doesnt mean that I will accept the opinion or lived experience of any individual as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as clearly there are individuals with mutually exclusive lived experiences. Mr" So let's get to feminism first shall we.... Feminism is the fight for social equality between the genders which by its very definition recognises that there are biological differences but that those differences should not mean that one gender is superior to another. Biologically I believe that most would accept that there are differences between the two main genders, this would be seen as fact and not opinion. Social conditioning is not what defines gender, that is purely biological and has been accepted as fact for millennia, this isn't something that will change because of opinion. Being trans is also seen by minds dedicated to medicine as fact and has been proven time and again, opinions based of heresy or what you read on social media is frankly bollocks spouted by those who often have little knowledge of the subject and will only assimilate what they want to know for their own purposes which is often to debunk fact....the problem with this is that too many believe this bollocks as they can't comprehend that trans really exists because it hasn't happened to them. There is a very definite male brain and female brain, studies have proven this now for decades along with proving that being born straight, gay or bi is also something you are born with and not social conditioning. Not a single trans person I have ever spoken to believes that there are no differences between a male and female brain, nor have I ever spoken to a feminist who believes there are no differences biologically or neurologically between men and women. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr" I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." | |||
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"I am struggling to understand much about it. As Kietonel said (and I love the way you debate btw) there are many "facts" and very strong opinions on both sides - I would change that to all sides as it certainly isn't a binary issue (no pun intended) So where I struggle. Feminism (I'm using the team loosely, I know not all feminists believe the same) has spent a long time telling us that there are no differences between men and women. The trans community agree and say gender is purely a social construct. So if these two are true, it can only mean that feeling the wrong gender to one's biological sex is purely a mental issue. The person concerned has an image of a gender (which doesn't actually exist outside the society they're in). By their own definition, trans people identify with a social construct. This is where I have sympathy with the arguments that this is no different to saying I feel like a tree/goldfish. As Sexycatkylie says, this idea is insulting to her experience. I hope I have this right Sck, you identify with the female gender and passionately believe that this gender is a real thing - on this thread and others you have spoken of studies that show trans women and biological women share similar brain activation patterns etc. I'm inclined to believe the same, but am aware that this is due in part to social conditioning that there is a difference between men and women. I'm also aware that to believe someone has a "female brain" (or the opposite) is to challenge a lot of work that has been done to show the complete opposite - that in fact there are no inherent differences. It is never my intention to cause hurt and I know I have had some criticism in the past when asking questions but I am genuinely asking from a position of ignorance. This doesnt mean that I will accept the opinion or lived experience of any individual as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as clearly there are individuals with mutually exclusive lived experiences. Mr So let's get to feminism first shall we.... Feminism is the fight for social equality between the genders which by its very definition recognises that there are biological differences but that those differences should not mean that one gender is superior to another. Biologically I believe that most would accept that there are differences between the two main genders, this would be seen as fact and not opinion. Social conditioning is not what defines gender, that is purely biological and has been accepted as fact for millennia, this isn't something that will change because of opinion. Being trans is also seen by minds dedicated to medicine as fact and has been proven time and again, opinions based of heresy or what you read on social media is frankly bollocks spouted by those who often have little knowledge of the subject and will only assimilate what they want to know for their own purposes which is often to debunk fact....the problem with this is that too many believe this bollocks as they can't comprehend that trans really exists because it hasn't happened to them. There is a very definite male brain and female brain, studies have proven this now for decades along with proving that being born straight, gay or bi is also something you are born with and not social conditioning. Not a single trans person I have ever spoken to believes that there are no differences between a male and female brain, nor have I ever spoken to a feminist who believes there are no differences biologically or neurologically between men and women." As above, read "the Gendered Brain" or (for a reasonable synopsis) Google Gina Rippon and read her Wikipedia page. This is a woman with far higher credentials in her field. I'm inclined to give higher credence to her opinions on the brain than those of a stranger on the Internet. Mr Mr | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said."" Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr" To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr | |||
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"I am struggling to understand much about it. As Kietonel said (and I love the way you debate btw) there are many "facts" and very strong opinions on both sides - I would change that to all sides as it certainly isn't a binary issue (no pun intended) So where I struggle. Feminism (I'm using the team loosely, I know not all feminists believe the same) has spent a long time telling us that there are no differences between men and women. The trans community agree and say gender is purely a social construct. So if these two are true, it can only mean that feeling the wrong gender to one's biological sex is purely a mental issue. The person concerned has an image of a gender (which doesn't actually exist outside the society they're in). By their own definition, trans people identify with a social construct. This is where I have sympathy with the arguments that this is no different to saying I feel like a tree/goldfish. As Sexycatkylie says, this idea is insulting to her experience. I hope I have this right Sck, you identify with the female gender and passionately believe that this gender is a real thing - on this thread and others you have spoken of studies that show trans women and biological women share similar brain activation patterns etc. I'm inclined to believe the same, but am aware that this is due in part to social conditioning that there is a difference between men and women. I'm also aware that to believe someone has a "female brain" (or the opposite) is to challenge a lot of work that has been done to show the complete opposite - that in fact there are no inherent differences. It is never my intention to cause hurt and I know I have had some criticism in the past when asking questions but I am genuinely asking from a position of ignorance. This doesnt mean that I will accept the opinion or lived experience of any individual as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as clearly there are individuals with mutually exclusive lived experiences. Mr So let's get to feminism first shall we.... Feminism is the fight for social equality between the genders which by its very definition recognises that there are biological differences but that those differences should not mean that one gender is superior to another. Biologically I believe that most would accept that there are differences between the two main genders, this would be seen as fact and not opinion. Social conditioning is not what defines gender, that is purely biological and has been accepted as fact for millennia, this isn't something that will change because of opinion. Being trans is also seen by minds dedicated to medicine as fact and has been proven time and again, opinions based of heresy or what you read on social media is frankly bollocks spouted by those who often have little knowledge of the subject and will only assimilate what they want to know for their own purposes which is often to debunk fact....the problem with this is that too many believe this bollocks as they can't comprehend that trans really exists because it hasn't happened to them. There is a very definite male brain and female brain, studies have proven this now for decades along with proving that being born straight, gay or bi is also something you are born with and not social conditioning. Not a single trans person I have ever spoken to believes that there are no differences between a male and female brain, nor have I ever spoken to a feminist who believes there are no differences biologically or neurologically between men and women. As above, read "the Gendered Brain" or (for a reasonable synopsis) Google Gina Rippon and read her Wikipedia page. This is a woman with far higher credentials in her field. I'm inclined to give higher credence to her opinions on the brain than those of a stranger on the Internet. Mr Mr" I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. | |||
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"I am struggling to understand much about it. As Kietonel said (and I love the way you debate btw) there are many "facts" and very strong opinions on both sides - I would change that to all sides as it certainly isn't a binary issue (no pun intended) So where I struggle. Feminism (I'm using the team loosely, I know not all feminists believe the same) has spent a long time telling us that there are no differences between men and women. The trans community agree and say gender is purely a social construct. So if these two are true, it can only mean that feeling the wrong gender to one's biological sex is purely a mental issue. The person concerned has an image of a gender (which doesn't actually exist outside the society they're in). By their own definition, trans people identify with a social construct. This is where I have sympathy with the arguments that this is no different to saying I feel like a tree/goldfish. As Sexycatkylie says, this idea is insulting to her experience. I hope I have this right Sck, you identify with the female gender and passionately believe that this gender is a real thing - on this thread and others you have spoken of studies that show trans women and biological women share similar brain activation patterns etc. I'm inclined to believe the same, but am aware that this is due in part to social conditioning that there is a difference between men and women. I'm also aware that to believe someone has a "female brain" (or the opposite) is to challenge a lot of work that has been done to show the complete opposite - that in fact there are no inherent differences. It is never my intention to cause hurt and I know I have had some criticism in the past when asking questions but I am genuinely asking from a position of ignorance. This doesnt mean that I will accept the opinion or lived experience of any individual as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as clearly there are individuals with mutually exclusive lived experiences. Mr" If I can pull out a key point that you made that ‘gender is a social construct’, that’s a popular point that people often make. It being such doesn’t mean that it isn’t real. Money is a social construct, so is politics, they’re both very real, just social constructs. To my mind, the fact that gender is a social construct means that attitudes towards them can be shifted and changed, not that they don’t exist. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr" Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr" You can't just look at this as being about brain structure though. It's also about culture, and what behaviours are expected in order to get along in society. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? " I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr | |||
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"I am struggling to understand much about it. As Kietonel said (and I love the way you debate btw) there are many "facts" and very strong opinions on both sides - I would change that to all sides as it certainly isn't a binary issue (no pun intended) So where I struggle. Feminism (I'm using the team loosely, I know not all feminists believe the same) has spent a long time telling us that there are no differences between men and women. The trans community agree and say gender is purely a social construct. So if these two are true, it can only mean that feeling the wrong gender to one's biological sex is purely a mental issue. The person concerned has an image of a gender (which doesn't actually exist outside the society they're in). By their own definition, trans people identify with a social construct. This is where I have sympathy with the arguments that this is no different to saying I feel like a tree/goldfish. As Sexycatkylie says, this idea is insulting to her experience. I hope I have this right Sck, you identify with the female gender and passionately believe that this gender is a real thing - on this thread and others you have spoken of studies that show trans women and biological women share similar brain activation patterns etc. I'm inclined to believe the same, but am aware that this is due in part to social conditioning that there is a difference between men and women. I'm also aware that to believe someone has a "female brain" (or the opposite) is to challenge a lot of work that has been done to show the complete opposite - that in fact there are no inherent differences. It is never my intention to cause hurt and I know I have had some criticism in the past when asking questions but I am genuinely asking from a position of ignorance. This doesnt mean that I will accept the opinion or lived experience of any individual as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as clearly there are individuals with mutually exclusive lived experiences. Mr If I can pull out a key point that you made that ‘gender is a social construct’, that’s a popular point that people often make. It being such doesn’t mean that it isn’t real. Money is a social construct, so is politics, they’re both very real, just social constructs. To my mind, the fact that gender is a social construct means that attitudes towards them can be shifted and changed, not that they don’t exist. " See, I agree with this. But then if gender is only something that is generated by society, when someone says they want to be a specific gender what they mean is they want to feel as though they have the attributes that society (or at least their view of it) attributes to that gender? How does that compare to people who say that society should be gender neutral? Mr | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr" That might be because she's a neurobiologist and not a sociologist. | |||
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" Mr I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. " Oh, absolutely. But I don't choose to believe them over a professor emeritus in Neurobiology on how the brain works and how brain scans should be interpreted. Mr | |||
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" That might be because she's a neurobiologist and not a sociologist. " I suspect that she is very well aware of the way her words can be interpreted and choses the exact words she wants to express her ideas as accurately as possible irrespective of her background. Mr | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr" To get a real in depth look into the differences between the genders you should read Brain Sex, The Real Difference Between Men and Women by Anne Moir and David Jessen. One person's opinion or study does not confirm all thinking and fact on a subject as diverse and complex as gender. If you think there is no difference between a male and female brain, can you explain why boys/men in general are competitive and confrontational where girls/women are more social, caring and compassionate. Can you explain why some boys/girls show opposing traits to the normal ones displayed by their own genders? Why are some men very effeminate and some women overly masculine? Social conditioning or maybe it is the difference between a male and female brain as decided upon by chromosomal differences in utero. As has been said above, maybe listen to the people who live with these issues instead of seeing things that fit in with your narrative as they will likely have looked into it all far far deeper because it massively effects effects way they have to live. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr" I think that there is no clear and simple answer to this. It's basically the "nature vs. nurture" discussion. My opinion is that it's part and part. Genetics (nature) sets possibilities and limits on how someone will turn out - not just their gender, but all kinds of aspects of their physicality and their personality. But then environment and upbringing (nurture) shape the person from the first moment of the fertilised egg dividing, through birth, all the way to death. Society affects how people develop, and people affect how society develops. But people cannot go beyond the limits set by the clay from which they are made. Some behaviour is learned. Some behaviour is hard wired in. Most is a mixture. | |||
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" Mr I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. Oh, absolutely. But I don't choose to believe them over a professor emeritus in Neurobiology on how the brain works and how brain scans should be interpreted. Mr" So are you telling me u also don’t believe the experiences lived and felt by somebody with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or even just stupid common depression? Because a professor somewhere might say his/her piece, somewhere in this whole wide world?
I’m not comparing myself but I’d never dare to tell someone with any of those conditions that the way they go through life, isn’t true. | |||
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"I am struggling to understand much about it. As Kietonel said (and I love the way you debate btw) there are many "facts" and very strong opinions on both sides - I would change that to all sides as it certainly isn't a binary issue (no pun intended) So where I struggle. Feminism (I'm using the team loosely, I know not all feminists believe the same) has spent a long time telling us that there are no differences between men and women. The trans community agree and say gender is purely a social construct. So if these two are true, it can only mean that feeling the wrong gender to one's biological sex is purely a mental issue. The person concerned has an image of a gender (which doesn't actually exist outside the society they're in). By their own definition, trans people identify with a social construct. This is where I have sympathy with the arguments that this is no different to saying I feel like a tree/goldfish. As Sexycatkylie says, this idea is insulting to her experience. I hope I have this right Sck, you identify with the female gender and passionately believe that this gender is a real thing - on this thread and others you have spoken of studies that show trans women and biological women share similar brain activation patterns etc. I'm inclined to believe the same, but am aware that this is due in part to social conditioning that there is a difference between men and women. I'm also aware that to believe someone has a "female brain" (or the opposite) is to challenge a lot of work that has been done to show the complete opposite - that in fact there are no inherent differences. It is never my intention to cause hurt and I know I have had some criticism in the past when asking questions but I am genuinely asking from a position of ignorance. This doesnt mean that I will accept the opinion or lived experience of any individual as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as clearly there are individuals with mutually exclusive lived experiences. Mr If I can pull out a key point that you made that ‘gender is a social construct’, that’s a popular point that people often make. It being such doesn’t mean that it isn’t real. Money is a social construct, so is politics, they’re both very real, just social constructs. To my mind, the fact that gender is a social construct means that attitudes towards them can be shifted and changed, not that they don’t exist. See, I agree with this. But then if gender is only something that is generated by society, when someone says they want to be a specific gender what they mean is they want to feel as though they have the attributes that society (or at least their view of it) attributes to that gender? How does that compare to people who say that society should be gender neutral? Mr " Who says that society should be gender neutral? | |||
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" Mr I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. Oh, absolutely. But I don't choose to believe them over a professor emeritus in Neurobiology on how the brain works and how brain scans should be interpreted. Mr So are you telling me u also don’t believe the experiences lived and felt by somebody with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or even just stupid common depression? Because a professor somewhere might say his/her piece, somewhere in this whole wide world?
I’m not comparing myself but I’d never dare to tell someone with any of those conditions that the way they go through life, isn’t true. "It's all in our heads, obvs. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Mr I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. Oh, absolutely. But I don't choose to believe them over a professor emeritus in Neurobiology on how the brain works and how brain scans should be interpreted. Mr" If you accept that gender is a social construct then why would a neurobiologist be the person to listen to, a psychologist would be the person to refer to, surely? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr I think that there is no clear and simple answer to this. It's basically the "nature vs. nurture" discussion. My opinion is that it's part and part. Genetics (nature) sets possibilities and limits on how someone will turn out - not just their gender, but all kinds of aspects of their physicality and their personality. But then environment and upbringing (nurture) shape the person from the first moment of the fertilised egg dividing, through birth, all the way to death. Society affects how people develop, and people affect how society develops. But people cannot go beyond the limits set by the clay from which they are made. Some behaviour is learned. Some behaviour is hard wired in. Most is a mixture." The effect society has on a trans person is to ridicule them and keep them hiding their true selves out of fear for what it will cost them to come out as the person that they are. That is what society does to a trans person, society plays no part in anyone suddenly deciding to change gender when you look at how transgender people are treated by a large majority of that society. Thank fuck for the supporters and allies of those who don't fit into societal norms | |||
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" Mr I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. Oh, absolutely. But I don't choose to believe them over a professor emeritus in Neurobiology on how the brain works and how brain scans should be interpreted. Mr So are you telling me u also don’t believe the experiences lived and felt by somebody with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or even just stupid common depression? Because a professor somewhere might say his/her piece, somewhere in this whole wide world?
I’m not comparing myself but I’d never dare to tell someone with any of those conditions that the way they go through life, isn’t true.
It's all in our heads, obvs."Exactly, and they are hard wired. Some are prone genetically. But it’s just the brain. And how the brain can be a beautiful beast in good and the bad. I said it many times I can’t explain it why I’m this way, I just know it just IS and always has been. No fascination, no pre condition (I was mainly raised by my dad - so u can’t even say it was because I was surrounded by women) no idolisation. Also I hate that I had to make a come back when I said I’d stop x I’ll really stop now tho x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" Mr I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. Oh, absolutely. But I don't choose to believe them over a professor emeritus in Neurobiology on how the brain works and how brain scans should be interpreted. Mr So are you telling me u also don’t believe the experiences lived and felt by somebody with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or even just stupid common depression? Because a professor somewhere might say his/her piece, somewhere in this whole wide world?
I’m not comparing myself but I’d never dare to tell someone with any of those conditions that the way they go through life, isn’t true.
It's all in our heads, obvs."Well, taking a solipsistic viewpoint, everything is all in our heads. Or more precisely, in my head, because all of you are just part of my experience, I'm the only thing that I know for sure actually exists. I think, therefore I am. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr To get a real in depth look into the differences between the genders you should read Brain Sex, The Real Difference Between Men and Women by Anne Moir and David Jessen. One person's opinion or study does not confirm all thinking and fact on a subject as diverse and complex as gender. If you think there is no difference between a male and female brain, can you explain why boys/men in general are competitive and confrontational where girls/women are more social, caring and compassionate. Can you explain why some boys/girls show opposing traits to the normal ones displayed by their own genders? Why are some men very effeminate and some women overly masculine? Social conditioning or maybe it is the difference between a male and female brain as decided upon by chromosomal differences in utero. As has been said above, maybe listen to the people who live with these issues instead of seeing things that fit in with your narrative as they will likely have looked into it all far far deeper because it massively effects effects way they have to live." As I said, I wasn't championing her ideas and I am aware that there are others who think very differently. Thank you for the book suggestion, I'll add that to my list. As far as answering your questions, it would take me a long time to type out her answers and I simply don't have the expertise to do the arguments justice. Suffice to say she answers them clearly in her book. I'm going to kindly ask you to re-read my posts. I do not have a narrative as you have accused me of, I express clearly my ignorance on the subject. I know lots of people have a habit of claiming ignorance while having a very closed mind. I am not those people. I have presented Gina Rippon arguments precisely because I am interested in the challenges to them. I am well aware that there are a huge range of opinions and you trying to railroad me into accepting yours is not going to work. Mr | |||
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" Mr I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. Oh, absolutely. But I don't choose to believe them over a professor emeritus in Neurobiology on how the brain works and how brain scans should be interpreted. Mr So are you telling me u also don’t believe the experiences lived and felt by somebody with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or even just stupid common depression? Because a professor somewhere might say his/her piece, somewhere in this whole wide world?
I’m not comparing myself but I’d never dare to tell someone with any of those conditions that the way they go through life, isn’t true. "No, I'm telling you the exact opposite. To use you example of bi polar, I would absolutely listen to and believe the experience of someone stuffing this. What I wouldn't do is believe them if the explanation they gave of how their brain produced that lived experience differered from how a neurobiologist says the brain creates that experience. Mr | |||
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" Mr I choose to believe people about the lives that they experience, myself. Oh, absolutely. But I don't choose to believe them over a professor emeritus in Neurobiology on how the brain works and how brain scans should be interpreted. Mr So are you telling me u also don’t believe the experiences lived and felt by somebody with bipolar disorder or schizophrenia or even just stupid common depression? Because a professor somewhere might say his/her piece, somewhere in this whole wide world?
I’m not comparing myself but I’d never dare to tell someone with any of those conditions that the way they go through life, isn’t true.
It's all in our heads, obvs.
Well, taking a solipsistic viewpoint, everything is all in our heads. Or more precisely, in my head, because all of you are just part of my experience, I'm the only thing that I know for sure actually exists. I think, therefore I am."Pfft. You're in my head. Know your place | |||
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"I am struggling to understand much about it. As Kietonel said (and I love the way you debate btw) there are many "facts" and very strong opinions on both sides - I would change that to all sides as it certainly isn't a binary issue (no pun intended) So where I struggle. Feminism (I'm using the team loosely, I know not all feminists believe the same) has spent a long time telling us that there are no differences between men and women. The trans community agree and say gender is purely a social construct. So if these two are true, it can only mean that feeling the wrong gender to one's biological sex is purely a mental issue. The person concerned has an image of a gender (which doesn't actually exist outside the society they're in). By their own definition, trans people identify with a social construct. This is where I have sympathy with the arguments that this is no different to saying I feel like a tree/goldfish. As Sexycatkylie says, this idea is insulting to her experience. I hope I have this right Sck, you identify with the female gender and passionately believe that this gender is a real thing - on this thread and others you have spoken of studies that show trans women and biological women share similar brain activation patterns etc. I'm inclined to believe the same, but am aware that this is due in part to social conditioning that there is a difference between men and women. I'm also aware that to believe someone has a "female brain" (or the opposite) is to challenge a lot of work that has been done to show the complete opposite - that in fact there are no inherent differences. It is never my intention to cause hurt and I know I have had some criticism in the past when asking questions but I am genuinely asking from a position of ignorance. This doesnt mean that I will accept the opinion or lived experience of any individual as being the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth as clearly there are individuals with mutually exclusive lived experiences. Mr If I can pull out a key point that you made that ‘gender is a social construct’, that’s a popular point that people often make. It being such doesn’t mean that it isn’t real. Money is a social construct, so is politics, they’re both very real, just social constructs. To my mind, the fact that gender is a social construct means that attitudes towards them can be shifted and changed, not that they don’t exist. See, I agree with this. But then if gender is only something that is generated by society, when someone says they want to be a specific gender what they mean is they want to feel as though they have the attributes that society (or at least their view of it) attributes to that gender? How does that compare to people who say that society should be gender neutral? Mr Who says that society should be gender neutral? " https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_neutrality | |||
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" That might be because she's a neurobiologist and not a sociologist. I suspect that she is very well aware of the way her words can be interpreted and choses the exact words she wants to express her ideas as accurately as possible irrespective of her background. Mr " I didn't mean she mispoke . I meant she studies biology not sociology. That's why she refers to biology only. Being a biologist. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr To get a real in depth look into the differences between the genders you should read Brain Sex, The Real Difference Between Men and Women by Anne Moir and David Jessen. One person's opinion or study does not confirm all thinking and fact on a subject as diverse and complex as gender. If you think there is no difference between a male and female brain, can you explain why boys/men in general are competitive and confrontational where girls/women are more social, caring and compassionate. Can you explain why some boys/girls show opposing traits to the normal ones displayed by their own genders? Why are some men very effeminate and some women overly masculine? Social conditioning or maybe it is the difference between a male and female brain as decided upon by chromosomal differences in utero. As has been said above, maybe listen to the people who live with these issues instead of seeing things that fit in with your narrative as they will likely have looked into it all far far deeper because it massively effects effects way they have to live. As I said, I wasn't championing her ideas and I am aware that there are others who think very differently. Thank you for the book suggestion, I'll add that to my list. As far as answering your questions, it would take me a long time to type out her answers and I simply don't have the expertise to do the arguments justice. Suffice to say she answers them clearly in her book. I'm going to kindly ask you to re-read my posts. I do not have a narrative as you have accused me of, I express clearly my ignorance on the subject. I know lots of people have a habit of claiming ignorance while having a very closed mind. I am not those people. I have presented Gina Rippon arguments precisely because I am interested in the challenges to them. I am well aware that there are a huge range of opinions and you trying to railroad me into accepting yours is not going to work. Mr " I'm not trying to railroad you into only seeing my side of things, that would be foolish of me to do so when what is needed is an open mind which will accept that you may need to learn about a subject to be able to see the other side that you haven't come across or may not have considered. One person will not know a subject from all sides and to believe so is dangerous, we have all seen many so called experts be very wrong which can have a drastic effect on those that are subjected to the way those finding ate put across and taken as gospel. Often only when you truly put yourself in the shoes of someone who lives a very different reality to you will you ever understand it and thankfully for you it is something you will never have to do so please give some credence to those who have to live with it and understand what they are telling you. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr To get a real in depth look into the differences between the genders you should read Brain Sex, The Real Difference Between Men and Women by Anne Moir and David Jessen. One person's opinion or study does not confirm all thinking and fact on a subject as diverse and complex as gender. If you think there is no difference between a male and female brain, can you explain why boys/men in general are competitive and confrontational where girls/women are more social, caring and compassionate. Can you explain why some boys/girls show opposing traits to the normal ones displayed by their own genders? Why are some men very effeminate and some women overly masculine? Social conditioning or maybe it is the difference between a male and female brain as decided upon by chromosomal differences in utero. As has been said above, maybe listen to the people who live with these issues instead of seeing things that fit in with your narrative as they will likely have looked into it all far far deeper because it massively effects effects way they have to live. As I said, I wasn't championing her ideas and I am aware that there are others who think very differently. Thank you for the book suggestion, I'll add that to my list. As far as answering your questions, it would take me a long time to type out her answers and I simply don't have the expertise to do the arguments justice. Suffice to say she answers them clearly in her book. I'm going to kindly ask you to re-read my posts. I do not have a narrative as you have accused me of, I express clearly my ignorance on the subject. I know lots of people have a habit of claiming ignorance while having a very closed mind. I am not those people. I have presented Gina Rippon arguments precisely because I am interested in the challenges to them. I am well aware that there are a huge range of opinions and you trying to railroad me into accepting yours is not going to work. Mr I'm not trying to railroad you into only seeing my side of things, that would be foolish of me to do so when what is needed is an open mind which will accept that you may need to learn about a subject to be able to see the other side that you haven't come across or may not have considered. One person will not know a subject from all sides and to believe so is dangerous, we have all seen many so called experts be very wrong which can have a drastic effect on those that are subjected to the way those finding ate put across and taken as gospel. Often only when you truly put yourself in the shoes of someone who lives a very different reality to you will you ever understand it and thankfully for you it is something you will never have to do so please give some credence to those who have to live with it and understand what they are telling you." I'm not doubting any if what they're telling me they experience or feel. My problem is that different people feel dietetics things. Sck had said she believes that some are (to paraphrase) jumping on a bandwagon. I'm sure if I asked the people she says that about they would be equally offended. I do not doubt, nor would I ever ridicule someone's lived experience. I seek only to understand enough to have what I feel is a properly informed opinion and be able to behave in what I feel is the correct way. Should I for example vote for a politician that is pushing for any person who identifies as a woman to be allowed to use the female toilets? This is a real life issue with very strong opinions on both sides. I want to do the right things, say the right things, be the right kind of person and I don't know how to. Mr | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr To get a real in depth look into the differences between the genders you should read Brain Sex, The Real Difference Between Men and Women by Anne Moir and David Jessen. One person's opinion or study does not confirm all thinking and fact on a subject as diverse and complex as gender. If you think there is no difference between a male and female brain, can you explain why boys/men in general are competitive and confrontational where girls/women are more social, caring and compassionate. Can you explain why some boys/girls show opposing traits to the normal ones displayed by their own genders? Why are some men very effeminate and some women overly masculine? Social conditioning or maybe it is the difference between a male and female brain as decided upon by chromosomal differences in utero. As has been said above, maybe listen to the people who live with these issues instead of seeing things that fit in with your narrative as they will likely have looked into it all far far deeper because it massively effects effects way they have to live. As I said, I wasn't championing her ideas and I am aware that there are others who think very differently. Thank you for the book suggestion, I'll add that to my list. As far as answering your questions, it would take me a long time to type out her answers and I simply don't have the expertise to do the arguments justice. Suffice to say she answers them clearly in her book. I'm going to kindly ask you to re-read my posts. I do not have a narrative as you have accused me of, I express clearly my ignorance on the subject. I know lots of people have a habit of claiming ignorance while having a very closed mind. I am not those people. I have presented Gina Rippon arguments precisely because I am interested in the challenges to them. I am well aware that there are a huge range of opinions and you trying to railroad me into accepting yours is not going to work. Mr I'm not trying to railroad you into only seeing my side of things, that would be foolish of me to do so when what is needed is an open mind which will accept that you may need to learn about a subject to be able to see the other side that you haven't come across or may not have considered. One person will not know a subject from all sides and to believe so is dangerous, we have all seen many so called experts be very wrong which can have a drastic effect on those that are subjected to the way those finding ate put across and taken as gospel. Often only when you truly put yourself in the shoes of someone who lives a very different reality to you will you ever understand it and thankfully for you it is something you will never have to do so please give some credence to those who have to live with it and understand what they are telling you. I'm not doubting any if what they're telling me they experience or feel. My problem is that different people feel dietetics things. Sck had said she believes that some are (to paraphrase) jumping on a bandwagon. I'm sure if I asked the people she says that about they would be equally offended. I do not doubt, nor would I ever ridicule someone's lived experience. I seek only to understand enough to have what I feel is a properly informed opinion and be able to behave in what I feel is the correct way. Should I for example vote for a politician that is pushing for any person who identifies as a woman to be allowed to use the female toilets? This is a real life issue with very strong opinions on both sides. I want to do the right things, say the right things, be the right kind of person and I don't know how to. Mr" As someone who has shared a womans toilet with probably hundreds of women, only once have I ever come across an issue and that was because of a twat of a crossdresser who caused the issue herself (I know her well in person so know what she is like). I do know there have been issues with regards to toilets but these will be far outweighed by toilet uses that have gone off without a hitch. To say otherwise would be like saying every car journey must mean that there was a crash too as car crashes happen and they're the ones that are noticed and commented upon. | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr To get a real in depth look into the differences between the genders you should read Brain Sex, The Real Difference Between Men and Women by Anne Moir and David Jessen. One person's opinion or study does not confirm all thinking and fact on a subject as diverse and complex as gender. If you think there is no difference between a male and female brain, can you explain why boys/men in general are competitive and confrontational where girls/women are more social, caring and compassionate. Can you explain why some boys/girls show opposing traits to the normal ones displayed by their own genders? Why are some men very effeminate and some women overly masculine? Social conditioning or maybe it is the difference between a male and female brain as decided upon by chromosomal differences in utero. As has been said above, maybe listen to the people who live with these issues instead of seeing things that fit in with your narrative as they will likely have looked into it all far far deeper because it massively effects effects way they have to live. As I said, I wasn't championing her ideas and I am aware that there are others who think very differently. Thank you for the book suggestion, I'll add that to my list. As far as answering your questions, it would take me a long time to type out her answers and I simply don't have the expertise to do the arguments justice. Suffice to say she answers them clearly in her book. I'm going to kindly ask you to re-read my posts. I do not have a narrative as you have accused me of, I express clearly my ignorance on the subject. I know lots of people have a habit of claiming ignorance while having a very closed mind. I am not those people. I have presented Gina Rippon arguments precisely because I am interested in the challenges to them. I am well aware that there are a huge range of opinions and you trying to railroad me into accepting yours is not going to work. Mr I'm not trying to railroad you into only seeing my side of things, that would be foolish of me to do so when what is needed is an open mind which will accept that you may need to learn about a subject to be able to see the other side that you haven't come across or may not have considered. One person will not know a subject from all sides and to believe so is dangerous, we have all seen many so called experts be very wrong which can have a drastic effect on those that are subjected to the way those finding ate put across and taken as gospel. Often only when you truly put yourself in the shoes of someone who lives a very different reality to you will you ever understand it and thankfully for you it is something you will never have to do so please give some credence to those who have to live with it and understand what they are telling you. I'm not doubting any if what they're telling me they experience or feel. My problem is that different people feel dietetics things. Sck had said she believes that some are (to paraphrase) jumping on a bandwagon. I'm sure if I asked the people she says that about they would be equally offended. I do not doubt, nor would I ever ridicule someone's lived experience. I seek only to understand enough to have what I feel is a properly informed opinion and be able to behave in what I feel is the correct way. Should I for example vote for a politician that is pushing for any person who identifies as a woman to be allowed to use the female toilets? This is a real life issue with very strong opinions on both sides. I want to do the right things, say the right things, be the right kind of person and I don't know how to. Mr" I think you should just think for yourself. Do what you think is the fight thing.... | |||
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"…Obviously I haven't met every feminist in the world and I'm sure there's some out there that exist but I haven't personally met a feminist who believes there's no differences between men and women. Nor have I tbh. Me neither Read "The Gendered Brain" by Gina Rippon. Mr I just googled it and... "All this does not mean that differences between the sexes should be completely ignored, however. Many diseases, Rippon said, like Alzheimer’s and Parkinson's, as well as afflictions like depression and self-harm differ between sexes, and need more research to be fully understood. I don’t think we should dismiss sex differences. We should be careful making statements about fundemental sex differences when they really aren’t that fundemental, Rippon said." Yes, she is talking of biological differences - I think we all agree on them. What she refutes is the cidea that there are inherrent differences in the way men and women think. Mr To add she says, there are fundamental sex differences. She doesn't say there are fundamental gender differences. Mr Have you read the whole of her findings or just the bullet points that have been pointed out on Google? You do know how Google search results work right? I've read her book - twice. Actually, I say read, I have it in my audibook library and have listened to it twice. She gives a very different view to Stephen Pinker in "The Blank Slate" so please don't feel as though I'm promoting her (or what you seem to believe is my misrepresentation of her ideas) Perhaps you could tell me whether you believe there is a female and male gender that correlates with something inherent in our brain or are these genders invented by society? Mr Mr To get a real in depth look into the differences between the genders you should read Brain Sex, The Real Difference Between Men and Women by Anne Moir and David Jessen. One person's opinion or study does not confirm all thinking and fact on a subject as diverse and complex as gender. If you think there is no difference between a male and female brain, can you explain why boys/men in general are competitive and confrontational where girls/women are more social, caring and compassionate. Can you explain why some boys/girls show opposing traits to the normal ones displayed by their own genders? Why are some men very effeminate and some women overly masculine? Social conditioning or maybe it is the difference between a male and female brain as decided upon by chromosomal differences in utero. As has been said above, maybe listen to the people who live with these issues instead of seeing things that fit in with your narrative as they will likely have looked into it all far far deeper because it massively effects effects way they have to live. As I said, I wasn't championing her ideas and I am aware that there are others who think very differently. Thank you for the book suggestion, I'll add that to my list. As far as answering your questions, it would take me a long time to type out her answers and I simply don't have the expertise to do the arguments justice. Suffice to say she answers them clearly in her book. I'm going to kindly ask you to re-read my posts. I do not have a narrative as you have accused me of, I express clearly my ignorance on the subject. I know lots of people have a habit of claiming ignorance while having a very closed mind. I am not those people. I have presented Gina Rippon arguments precisely because I am interested in the challenges to them. I am well aware that there are a huge range of opinions and you trying to railroad me into accepting yours is not going to work. Mr I'm not trying to railroad you into only seeing my side of things, that would be foolish of me to do so when what is needed is an open mind which will accept that you may need to learn about a subject to be able to see the other side that you haven't come across or may not have considered. One person will not know a subject from all sides and to believe so is dangerous, we have all seen many so called experts be very wrong which can have a drastic effect on those that are subjected to the way those finding ate put across and taken as gospel. Often only when you truly put yourself in the shoes of someone who lives a very different reality to you will you ever understand it and thankfully for you it is something you will never have to do so please give some credence to those who have to live with it and understand what they are telling you. I'm not doubting any if what they're telling me they experience or feel. My problem is that different people feel dietetics things. Sck had said she believes that some are (to paraphrase) jumping on a bandwagon. I'm sure if I asked the people she says that about they would be equally offended. I do not doubt, nor would I ever ridicule someone's lived experience. I seek only to understand enough to have what I feel is a properly informed opinion and be able to behave in what I feel is the correct way. Should I for example vote for a politician that is pushing for any person who identifies as a woman to be allowed to use the female toilets? This is a real life issue with very strong opinions on both sides. I want to do the right things, say the right things, be the right kind of person and I don't know how to. Mr" I said some people jump on a band wagon when it comes to SOME celebrities who do say they are trees or rabbits. (I’d be very interested to know if they always thought as free from the age of 5?) A lot of the times they self identify. They don’t go through the process of seeing gender specialists including gender doctors and therapists to get an actual diagnosis. I’ve got diagnosed and I do believe in medicine. The new trans movement sometimes take things to the extreme when it comes to pronouns and self identification of random things. A lot of trans people believe in medicine and their diagnosis. But let’s not mix the two. Regarding the bathroom issue, I already said a diagnosis is important in order to be trans (to then start the whole path where some might go all the way some might stop before) But also wouldn’t it be completely outrageous if I came to your toilet? I wouldn’t particularly feel safe myself but I’m sure It would be fucking odd for men if I showed up? What about trans men who look like men with beards and muscles and are men showing up in womens toilets? I’m pretty sure that’d also cause unease because guess what. U won’t go to them to check what they have in between their legs or to double check their birth certificate. | |||
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" That might be because she's a neurobiologist and not a sociologist. I suspect that she is very well aware of the way her words can be interpreted and choses the exact words she wants to express her ideas as accurately as possible irrespective of her background. Mr I didn't mean she mispoke . I meant she studies biology not sociology. That's why she refers to biology only. Being a biologist. "Yes this is what tends to happen when asking any question of any specialist. The answer they give is shaped by the field in which they have expertise. A neurologist will look for physical mechanisms in the brain that affect behaviour. A psychologist will look for traumatic experiences in the individual. A sociologist will look at behaviour of society as a group, etc. Often specialists can be so embedded within their own subjects that they can fail to see other causes, or they might feel that they are only qualified to talk about particular aspects of a problem. Sometimes the specialist use of language can result in experts from different fields not even being able to understand what the other is saying. The same words can be used, but very different things may be meant. | |||
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"Let’s call it spade. The bathroom issue is for people who worry that Dave who loves to cross dress on Saturday night might show up in the womens toilet and cause mayhem… (which I agree he shouldn’t go into the womens but I’m positive that Dave will go pee in the mens as he’s comfortable in his male body. And the cross dressing is usually a fetishisation) A lot of the time I avoided using the toilets to the point I’d rather wet myself!! I’d keep it in in order to avoid the toilet issue. at the beginning of my transition, I didn’t feel worthy to be going in my right toilet (the ladies) because of people you mentioned who have worries. But also I didn’t feel comfortable with the mens either. For different reasons as it made my brain feel very dysphoric and just would make me incredibly uncomfortable. (I can’t even describe it it was just horrible type of feeling) A friend of mine who’s a lesbian woman (who might be FTM) told me she got stopped many times going in the womens toilets because she looks like a boy and they wanted to check that she wasn’t a boy. (Her reply was. If you want u can check ive got tits) She hasn’t transitioned yet so it’s only fair that she goes where she feels comfortable atm. But once she does transition, and she grows a beard and becomes a beautiful man. Then it’s only fair that she goes to the mens toilet. " We have traditional "gendered" toilets; some gender neutral loos for all and accessible loos (which are also gender neutral). This is not a ginormous multinational company, it's a relatively small organisation and they manage to provide a range of loos for different people. If arguing about toilets is the best people can come up with to poo-poo real issues, then let's just squash it by providing a range of loos. How many small cafés, restaurants etc have only one type of toilet for all? Loads. Most people seem to cope, so clearly that's the way to go. Bloomin' loos | |||
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"Let’s call it spade. The bathroom issue is for people who worry that Dave who loves to cross dress on Saturday night might show up in the womens toilet and cause mayhem… (which I agree he shouldn’t go into the womens but I’m positive that Dave will go pee in the mens as he’s comfortable in his male body. And the cross dressing is usually a fetishisation) A lot of the time I avoided using the toilets to the point I’d rather wet myself!! I’d keep it in in order to avoid the toilet issue. at the beginning of my transition, I didn’t feel worthy to be going in my right toilet (the ladies) because of people you mentioned who have worries. But also I didn’t feel comfortable with the mens either. For different reasons as it made my brain feel very dysphoric and just would make me incredibly uncomfortable. (I can’t even describe it it was just horrible type of feeling) A friend of mine who’s a lesbian woman (who might be FTM) told me she got stopped many times going in the womens toilets because she looks like a boy and they wanted to check that she wasn’t a boy. (Her reply was. If you want u can check ive got tits) She hasn’t transitioned yet so it’s only fair that she goes where she feels comfortable atm. But once she does transition, and she grows a beard and becomes a beautiful man. Then it’s only fair that she goes to the mens toilet. We have traditional "gendered" toilets; some gender neutral loos for all and accessible loos (which are also gender neutral). This is not a ginormous multinational company, it's a relatively small organisation and they manage to provide a range of loos for different people. If arguing about toilets is the best people can come up with to poo-poo real issues, then let's just squash it by providing a range of loos. How many small cafés, restaurants etc have only one type of toilet for all? Loads. Most people seem to cope, so clearly that's the way to go. Bloomin' loos "Trivial to you maybe.. but a very important issue for many. It's all about the loos.. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's "It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x"I'm glad too x | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"The toilet issue is incredibly important to many. There is a recent case at a USA University where shared toilets did not end well... " Then keep doing separate. But don’t think I’ll be coming into your toilets
Don’t you genuinely think it’d be freaking weird for u too ? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x"I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities. I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive. " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive. "At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then. I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!) "At a time not at the time | |||
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"I do not give a rats arse where anyone pisses but I know it's really important to lots of people.. " Open your coat pocket then as people will get pissed off if I go into the men's and rhe women's toilet so your pocket will have to do if you dont care. | |||
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"I do not give a rats arse where anyone pisses but I know it's really important to lots of people.. " It is important to me as well because It makes me incredibly uncomfortable for a girl like me to walk in a toilet full of grown up men who will be wondering why there’s a woman in their toilet!!! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!) "No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to. "I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman” | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”"If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee? It won't just harm trans people  (not that I want it to hurt you either!) | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”"And what would she do with a non standard chromosome number?! Yikes, doesn't bear thinking about
"You're 47XXY - does not compute" | |||
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"We held a straw pole at my old work and the men did not give a monkeys who used their toilets but all of the females did..I am not sure it's the men you need to convince..." Because the men aren't the ones who will feel vulnerable or don't you see that side of things? That'll be your male brain thinking or probably not thinking at all. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"We held a straw pole at my old work and the men did not give a monkeys who used their toilets but all of the females did..I am not sure it's the men you need to convince..." U know what you said before about the two type of sexes? You definitely fall into the latter category you mentioned
You win comment of the month !! Congrats | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"We held a straw pole at my old work and the men did not give a monkeys who used their toilets but all of the females did..I am not sure it's the men you need to convince..." Interesting how vocal men are online about ladies loos though. The women, when asked, seem mostly unconcerned. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
And what would she do with a non standard chromosome number?! Yikes, doesn't bear thinking about
"You're 47XXY - does not compute" "They get to hold it in and you pee in your own home. Like when you take ur trash home when you can’t find bins anywhere! | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)"Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee.. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee.. "Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it? "The daily snail makes a point of picking at trans people and preying on natural fears; ‘but what if they attack our children?’  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee.. "Thank you for your concern. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
The daily snail makes a point of picking at trans people and preying on natural fears; ‘but what if they attack our children?’ "Not the first time nor the only place that has ever been spouted out I'm very sad to say | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it? "Snooze time here.. If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
Snooze time here..
If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on "Do as you say, not as you do, eh?! Perhaps you should preach such tolerance on threads about national parks beginning with D then | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
Snooze time here..
If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on "So challenge people with a genuine view or opinion then Tom instead of trying to trade insults as you're not very good at those, I also suspect you're not very good at having your own opinion either. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
Snooze time here..
If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on "If it doesn’t affect you and you’ve done bugger all research on the subject that doesn’t affect you then better not post. Just an idea | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
Snooze time here..
If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on
If it doesn’t affect you and you’ve done bugger all research on the subject that doesn’t affect you then better not post. Just an idea "My research comes from real life experience.. I have fucked TVs, I have been fucked by TVs, I have fucked TS's, I have been fucked over by TVs and TSs. I have pretty much fucked and been fucked by most combinations. I know enough to know that some of those were lovely people and some were cunts.. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
Snooze time here..
If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on
If it doesn’t affect you and you’ve done bugger all research on the subject that doesn’t affect you then better not post. Just an idea
My research comes from real life experience.. I have fucked TVs, I have been fucked by TVs, I have fucked TS's, I have been fucked over by TVs and TSs. I have pretty much fucked and been fucked by most combinations. I know enough to know that some of those were lovely people and some were cunts.. "So you’ve had sex with a few people and suddenly you’re an expert on trans issues? Issues that have no bearing on your life? | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
Snooze time here..
If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on "Snooze time after causing unrest Well done you Have a Mars bar  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
Snooze time here..
If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on
If it doesn’t affect you and you’ve done bugger all research on the subject that doesn’t affect you then better not post. Just an idea
My research comes from real life experience.. I have fucked TVs, I have been fucked by TVs, I have fucked TS's, I have been fucked over by TVs and TSs. I have pretty much fucked and been fucked by most combinations. I know enough to know that some of those were lovely people and some were cunts..
So you’ve had sex with a few people and suddenly you’re an expert on trans issues? Issues that have no bearing on your life? "It sounds a bit like the "I'm not -ist because I have friends who are black/gay/trans/disabled*" *delete protected characteristic to suit the relevant -ist | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"Btw my comment is to supplement Kylie's
It makes me incredibly sad to re-read how I used to see the loo issue and how many times I used to just hold it to the extreme of almost wetting myself .
Such a little thing that when you feel you have been squashed left right and centre by preconception and self hatred, Feels HUGE!
I’m glad that’s in the past tho x
I'm assuming gender neutral toilets with cubicles, no division by gender, would have made things easier for you? I don't understand why such provision is not more widely spread because it's actually quite easy to provide some gender neutral, some "men's", some "ladies" and some accessible for people with disabilities.
I get cross that the first thing many anti-trans people jump to is "where will they go to the toilet," like it's the hardest conundrum of science to solve. I'm sure someone looked at a wheelchair, back in the day and said "we can't make our building open to wheelchair users - where will they go to the toilet?!" until someone just knocked two cubicles into one and voilà! A toilet that wheelchairs could fit in. Same idea for gender neutral loos - it's not rocket science, it just requires the people in charge to make subtle changes to be more inclusive.
At the time I used to only use the one single toilet where only one person is allowed at the time and can be used by men and women. Those were the only types I’d use back then.
I’ve been using the ladies for ages anyway now as I am okay in my body now that people see me as Kylie (and surprise surprise. They don’t ask for my birth certificate or if I have reassigned already or not!!)
No one's ever asked for my ID or checked my genitals to use the loo, and I think it's creepy that anyone would want to.
I wonder if posie Parker will put forward rapid chromosome tests to make sure that whoever walks in the bathroom is an ACTUAL REAL WOMAN. Or let me rephrase. That whoever walks in the bathroom isn’t a man that is now “woman”
If it turns out I have an unknown chromosomal abnormality, where will I pee?
It won't just harm trans people (not that I want it to hurt you either!)
Nobody cares where you pee.. I just get the impression that you hope they will care...it's attention seeking.. nobody cares where you pee..
Do you have anything of your own to add to this discussion Tom or are you just hoping to ignite a fire as per your usual threads where you claim its all over the news yet nobody else sees it?
Snooze time here..
If you don't like challenge or alternative views then maybe not post.. just an idea.. if you want groupthink then crack on
If it doesn’t affect you and you’ve done bugger all research on the subject that doesn’t affect you then better not post. Just an idea
My research comes from real life experience.. I have fucked TVs, I have been fucked by TVs, I have fucked TS's, I have been fucked over by TVs and TSs. I have pretty much fucked and been fucked by most combinations. I know enough to know that some of those were lovely people and some were cunts..
So you’ve had sex with a few people and suddenly you’re an expert on trans issues? Issues that have no bearing on your life? "Comical
Suddenly anyone who has seen the space shuttle take off can go build one for NASA too  | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
