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Women will never feel 100% safe from sex pests?
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" Men are actually far more likely than women to suffer violence at the hands of a stranger. I have been the victim of a sustained and violent attack that nearly killed me - ironically going to help a woman being punched by her boyfriend." That's a truly horrific experience and you were remarkably brave for intervening in those circumstances. The statistics do show men are most likely to suffer violence from a stranger than woman are. It's not unusual for widely held public perceptions to differ from objective statistics but there's a huge gap when it comes to this. But in reality, us men are fully aware of the risk but it doesn't influence our day-to-day behaviour and choices in same way. For example, as a man if I saw another male attacking a woman I would approach without a doubt in my mind that it would result in me having to fight him. | |||
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"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things " I agree with this and believe we all have a duty of care to ourselves and each other to keep safe by being proactive. I take responsibility for myself because why rely on anyone else too | |||
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"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things " You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ?" I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? | |||
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"Lots there I agree with. As you say, gender apparently doesn't exist until people want it to. The idea that all men are responsible for the way some men behave is as wrong as saying all Muslims are responsible for Islamic extremism. I don't know the answers either though I think statistics are helpful. Men are actually far more likely than women to suffer violence at the hands of a stranger. I have been the victim of a sustained and violent attack that nearly killed me - ironically going to help a woman being punched by her boyfriend. She stood and watched as her b/f's mate attacked me from behind then both guys kicked and stamped my face on and off for several minutes before walking off together with them laughing. That did indeed lead to a period of time where I was very uncomfortable alone at night, a fear I learnt to overcome because it was irrational and affecting my life negatively. On the other hand, women are at far far higher risk from men they know. Domestic violence is a much bigger issue but is routinely swept under the carpet, recent events have been scrutinised and discussed in the media fueling this fear of stranger attack while 2 women a week die at the hands of a current or former partner yet their stories are rarely heard. Mr" I think we need to look at the wider issue. Perhaps one of why men 'vent'. I don't think structures in society cater for the many outlets that men need, never mind the burdens laid upon them re work, being a man , providing yada yada ...... I feel the same about provision for women but men pose a greater threat due to natural aggression ...... it needs channelling somehow. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? " No one is saying woman should be able to run stark bollock naked through Tesco. It isn't a Trope. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? No one is saying woman should be able to run stark bollock naked through Tesco. It isn't a Trope. " I’m just relaying a few of the trending popular posts I’ve seen on insta this past week that have been peddling that exact idea. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? " Women can change everything - what they wear, what route they take, not going out after dark, and it still won’t matter. We do everything to try and keep ourselves safe - and yet still we are attacked. It’s not trope - men do have to change. And yes it’s not all men, but it’s enough men to have engrained mistrust and fear in us. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? Women can change everything - what they wear, what route they take, not going out after dark, and it still won’t matter. We do everything to try and keep ourselves safe - and yet still we are attacked. It’s not trope - men do have to change. And yes it’s not all men, but it’s enough men to have engrained mistrust and fear in us. " Kinda agree, but like I said in my post, there’s a bunch of posts trending at the moment on insta with the basic idea of “why should we protect ourselves men need to change” which is right in principle but until the world is a utopia I think that kinda thinking is harmful We all have a duty to protect ourselves, as unfair or unjust it might seem | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? Women can change everything - what they wear, what route they take, not going out after dark, and it still won’t matter. We do everything to try and keep ourselves safe - and yet still we are attacked. It’s not trope - men do have to change. And yes it’s not all men, but it’s enough men to have engrained mistrust and fear in us. Kinda agree, but like I said in my post, there’s a bunch of posts trending at the moment on insta with the basic idea of “why should we protect ourselves men need to change” which is right in principle but until the world is a utopia I think that kinda thinking is harmful We all have a duty to protect ourselves, as unfair or unjust it might seem " I was typing my comment so didn’t see yours about insta. Personally I wouldn’t know of any woman who would say why should we protect ourselves, it’s just naturally there anyway that we do so | |||
" I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? " It's because the people the voices that are at the forefront of women's rights are blighted by an idealogy where "gender is a social construct and doesn't exist in reality" and that any differences can be attributed to "unequal power structure" based around this social construct. Of course people who have such a loose grip on reality are not in the business of listening to pragmatic solutions. | |||
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"Kinda agree, but like I said in my post, there’s a bunch of posts trending at the moment on insta with the basic idea of “why should we protect ourselves men need to change” which is right in principle but until the world is a utopia I think that kinda thinking is harmful We all have a duty to protect ourselves, as unfair or unjust it might seem " I think the arguments are less about what an individual might do to feel safe and more about where the focus of the discussion should be. The arguments are that it is distracting to focus on how women should behave. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? " And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable | |||
" I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? It's because the people the voices that are at the forefront of women's rights are blighted by an idealogy where "gender is a social construct and doesn't exist in reality" and that any differences can be attributed to "unequal power structure" based around this social construct. Of course people who have such a loose grip on reality are not in the business of listening to pragmatic solutions. " The problem is, haven’t we been trying to stop crime for a long time? Haven’t civilisations dreamed of times without crime for as long as history existed? And yet we still have crime, so what is the answer?? This is why I’m kinda half and half on this “men do better” idea too. I think men can do better, and a lot of the lower level stuff will get better. But the extreme stuff like this? Extreme sexual assaults? I don’t think that goes away with “do better men”. I think monsters do that stuff, and no wording will change that. Look at pedos. Universally hated. To the point where we wish endless torture on them. You’ll be cast out from any family, friends or society your in for it. Yet they get convicted regularly. Because nothing stops these monsters. So I’m unsure that “men need to do better” solves everything. I don’t think this guy needed to be told to do better. I think he’s a monster that can’t be reasoned with | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable " Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection | |||
" I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? It's because the people the voices that are at the forefront of women's rights are blighted by an idealogy where "gender is a social construct and doesn't exist in reality" and that any differences can be attributed to "unequal power structure" based around this social construct. Of course people who have such a loose grip on reality are not in the business of listening to pragmatic solutions. The problem is, haven’t we been trying to stop crime for a long time? Haven’t civilisations dreamed of times without crime for as long as history existed? And yet we still have crime, so what is the answer?? This is why I’m kinda half and half on this “men do better” idea too. I think men can do better, and a lot of the lower level stuff will get better. But the extreme stuff like this? Extreme sexual assaults? I don’t think that goes away with “do better men”. I think monsters do that stuff, and no wording will change that. Look at pedos. Universally hated. To the point where we wish endless torture on them. You’ll be cast out from any family, friends or society your in for it. Yet they get convicted regularly. Because nothing stops these monsters. So I’m unsure that “men need to do better” solves everything. I don’t think this guy needed to be told to do better. I think he’s a monster that can’t be reasoned with " Indeed. So why quote earlier that we need to take the safer options? What would that be? Lock ourselves away? In the hope we don’t get attacked? What are these safe options you preach about? | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection " I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. " So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? | |||
"I keep having this conversation with guys who ask to come to mine for coffee, instead of meeting in a public place. They just don't get it. "But I'm a nice guy" I'm sure you are, but past experience of "nice guys" tells me different! " I often wonder how I would navigate the hookup scene if I was a female who enjoys meeting guys on the hookup scene. I probably should be more responsible than to invite stranger to my home under all circumstances but the stakes are just so different for women than it is for men. I don't think exclusively heterosexual men are any more violent /unpredictable than gay/bi one. The horrific crimes of the Grindr killer and Reynard Sinaga show that men are also at risk of becoming victims. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? " Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. " But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? " Why do you presume that’s an option for someone?? Why is it clearly safer? Your actually yet to prove that other than your own thoughts on it. You think all women sat at home with their partners are safer? Wrong. Women that get a taxi rather than walking are safer? Wrong. Women that stay sober are safer?? Wrong. And through all of this you still focus on what a women needs to do. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? Why do you presume that’s an option for someone?? Why is it clearly safer? Your actually yet to prove that other than your own thoughts on it. You think all women sat at home with their partners are safer? Wrong. Women that get a taxi rather than walking are safer? Wrong. Women that stay sober are safer?? Wrong. And through all of this you still focus on what a women needs to do. " I’ll be honest, you sound far too heated to have a rational conversation about this, my intent wasn’t to offend or insult you, and you’ve obviously taken something the wrong way than how I tried to show it There’s a big different between Women are at fault for not taking these steps to protect themselves And There are things everyone can do to make themselves safer I’m just gonna leave you to cool down | |||
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"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? " I think women are feeling very angry today after the details of Sarah's death came out. And her mother's impact statement. Perhaps now is not the time to make your somewhat pedantic arguments. Women learn to keep safe from a young age. We take all kinds of measures all the time without even giving thought to them - they're automatic. I will have to pass these on to my daughter. So please don't lecture women on being safe. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? Why do you presume that’s an option for someone?? Why is it clearly safer? Your actually yet to prove that other than your own thoughts on it. You think all women sat at home with their partners are safer? Wrong. Women that get a taxi rather than walking are safer? Wrong. Women that stay sober are safer?? Wrong. And through all of this you still focus on what a women needs to do. I’ll be honest, you sound far too heated to have a rational conversation about this, my intent wasn’t to offend or insult you, and you’ve obviously taken something the wrong way than how I tried to show it There’s a big different between Women are at fault for not taking these steps to protect themselves And There are things everyone can do to make themselves safer I’m just gonna leave you to cool down " I’m far from heated. I often find this to be the case when no valid points can be given. You say ‘everyone’ now, but what you’ve said is ‘women’ as the other women have stated, it makes no difference to what we wear, where we go or who we are with. These attacks still happen. There is no such thing as safety from men like that. They are out to do what they’re out to do. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? I think women are feeling very angry today after the details of Sarah's death came out. And her mother's impact statement. Perhaps now is not the time to make your somewhat pedantic arguments. Women learn to keep safe from a young age. We take all kinds of measures all the time without even giving thought to them - they're automatic. I will have to pass these on to my daughter. So please don't lecture women on being safe. " I don’t believe “there are literally no safer options” is a smart mindset to have when it comes to your personal safety. I hope that’s not what you’ll be teaching your daughters, that’s there’s literally no safer option. That walking home alone at night d*unk is just as safe as ringing you for a lift home | |||
"We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. " | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? I think women are feeling very angry today after the details of Sarah's death came out. And her mother's impact statement. Perhaps now is not the time to make your somewhat pedantic arguments. Women learn to keep safe from a young age. We take all kinds of measures all the time without even giving thought to them - they're automatic. I will have to pass these on to my daughter. So please don't lecture women on being safe. I don’t believe “there are literally no safer options” is a smart mindset to have when it comes to your personal safety. I hope that’s not what you’ll be teaching your daughters, that’s there’s literally no safer option. That walking home alone at night d*unk is just as safe as ringing you for a lift home " But if it’s not just aimed at women why are you only mentioning daughters?? You don’t even realise you do it! After telling me you’re referring to ‘everyone’. I don’t walk anywhere d*unk, and have still managed to have horrible horrible men around. You seem to think doing these things will stop women being attacked. It won’t. I said what I said, they are out there to do what they set out to do. Telling women who’ve been drinking ti not walk home will NOT stop this. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? I think women are feeling very angry today after the details of Sarah's death came out. And her mother's impact statement. Perhaps now is not the time to make your somewhat pedantic arguments. Women learn to keep safe from a young age. We take all kinds of measures all the time without even giving thought to them - they're automatic. I will have to pass these on to my daughter. So please don't lecture women on being safe. I don’t believe “there are literally no safer options” is a smart mindset to have when it comes to your personal safety. I hope that’s not what you’ll be teaching your daughters, that’s there’s literally no safer option. That walking home alone at night d*unk is just as safe as ringing you for a lift home But if it’s not just aimed at women why are you only mentioning daughters?? You don’t even realise you do it! After telling me you’re referring to ‘everyone’. I don’t walk anywhere d*unk, and have still managed to have horrible horrible men around. You seem to think doing these things will stop women being attacked. It won’t. I said what I said, they are out there to do what they set out to do. Telling women who’ve been drinking ti not walk home will NOT stop this. " Because she mentioned her daughter Your so heated your not even fully reading the replies | |||
"Kinda agree, but like I said in my post, there’s a bunch of posts trending at the moment on insta with the basic idea of “why should we protect ourselves men need to change” which is right in principle but until the world is a utopia I think that kinda thinking is harmful We all have a duty to protect ourselves, as unfair or unjust it might seem I think the arguments are less about what an individual might do to feel safe and more about where the focus of the discussion should be. The arguments are that it is distracting to focus on how women should behave. " Arguably it is also distracting to focus on things like microagressions rooted in "everyday sexism" in the context of extreme gender-based physical and sexual violence. Yet this is exactly what happens in both mainstream and social media. There's no denying the #metoo movement has brought countless women justice. Right now, if you look at twitter there is a hashtag #NotAllMenButAllWomen that implies that because all women have been subject to anything from an unwanted advance/felt unsafe on dark street then the problem with predatory men is just as universal. I'm fully aware that as a man I am not able to perceive this in the same way as majority of woman due to my own biases. Yet there are massive parallels between this debate and how society views racial inequality. In the sense that the onus is on all white people to "do better", all differences of outcome are due to "structural" causes from someone getting your name wrong on work to the police killing you in your bed. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? I think women are feeling very angry today after the details of Sarah's death came out. And her mother's impact statement. Perhaps now is not the time to make your somewhat pedantic arguments. Women learn to keep safe from a young age. We take all kinds of measures all the time without even giving thought to them - they're automatic. I will have to pass these on to my daughter. So please don't lecture women on being safe. I don’t believe “there are literally no safer options” is a smart mindset to have when it comes to your personal safety. I hope that’s not what you’ll be teaching your daughters, that’s there’s literally no safer option. That walking home alone at night d*unk is just as safe as ringing you for a lift home " FFS. Don't you know when to draw a line?  | |||
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"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there"  Couzens wasn't a monster. He was making dental appointments for his children at the same time as plotting what he did to Sarah. But he showed the signs and those around him did nothing. His nickname was The Rapist. He could have been stopped. There were signs.  | |||
"Ohh I am. Please……if you have the solution we’re all ears. All we see is you telling women to change their behaviour and trying to pass it over as that we should be making better choices. No choices change these things happening. Complete end of story. " That's probably accurate, but pretty nihilistic. Women have tried changing behaviours over the years - far before hiding their ankles became a thing in the Victorian era - but violent attacks still happen. I don't think there is a solution to these sorts of attacks (specifically attacks by strangers). | |||
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"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there Couzens wasn't a monster. He was making dental appointments for his children at the same time as plotting what he did to Sarah. But he showed the signs and those around him did nothing. His nickname was The Rapist. He could have been stopped. There were signs. "There often are. The truth is that it’s a difficult conversation to have with a friend, to call them out on shitty behaviours. It needs to be done though. This should be a societal issue | |||
"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there" Well said. It’s not always the murderous monster that were scared of, sometimes it’s our best friends husband, that delivery driver who has to bring the washing machine into the kitchen, you’re alone and so thankful you have a dog, it’s the man who brushes past you inappropriately, the men that shout out of their window as they drive past. Men that make women feel unsafe are everywhere, and need calling out. | |||
"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there Couzens wasn't a monster. He was making dental appointments for his children at the same time as plotting what he did to Sarah. But he showed the signs and those around him did nothing. His nickname was The Rapist. He could have been stopped. There were signs. "The thing that makes him a monster is how he was able to resume normal life after committing the most horrific acts imaginable. His nickname of the "rapist" whilst being abhorrent and offensive would not have been sufficient to charge him with any offences however further consideration of the "circumstances" that lead his colleagues at his previous employer to give him that nickname and if they were ever reported to HR/professional standards. | |||
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"It's because there is a disconnect between how society (& especially men) view the violent sexual predator and the opportunistic one. In a legal sense, such a distinction does not exist yet the statistic that comes to mind is that 50% of r#pe cases that are reported to the police end with no one being charged let alone convicted. Therefore it just goes to show how even the legal system does not have a way of dealing with the "opportunistic, non physically violent" ra #pe cases that are reported by so many women." You’re ignoring or misrepresenting how few cases come to trial, not due to lack of evidence or due to not being reported but simply because the CPS won’t take the cases to trial. There is a huge issue within the legal system and has been for years, in that r*pe cases aren’t being pursued. Quite why that is is being reviewed currently I don’t think that this issue is connected to types of assault though and it’s a big dead end in regards to the topic of women’s safety and how it relates to society | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things " Tottaly true. I agree everyone should be able to do things without fear but sadly too many idiots about so you have to use common sense and avoid putting yourself in any situations that could be unsafe. Too many men and women do not take there personal safety seriously. Even as a mani never walk alone at night because theres too many idiots about and its not a risk im willing to take. | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests?" No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. | |||
"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there Well said. It’s not always the murderous monster that were scared of, sometimes it’s our best friends husband, that delivery driver who has to bring the washing machine into the kitchen, you’re alone and so thankful you have a dog, it’s the man who brushes past you inappropriately, the men that shout out of their window as they drive past. Men that make women feel unsafe are everywhere, and need calling out. " How do guys go about doing that while being safe? Every time I go out out, I see endless situations like the ones you’ve mentioned. Guys standing too close, a girl that clearly doesn’t want to be in a conversation with “that” guy, just general creepiness/inappropriateness I hate to see it, but I’m almost certain, especially in a situation where alcohol and tender egos are involved, calling a guy out in front of a crowd almost certainly leads to a fight. I’ve actually never known how to do it so I just stay out of things that aren’t my business | |||
"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there Well said. It’s not always the murderous monster that were scared of, sometimes it’s our best friends husband, that delivery driver who has to bring the washing machine into the kitchen, you’re alone and so thankful you have a dog, it’s the man who brushes past you inappropriately, the men that shout out of their window as they drive past. Men that make women feel unsafe are everywhere, and need calling out. " An abuser was described to me recently as someone who could flick a switch and everyone loved him and in private was a violent, controlling narcissist… posted about Domestic abuse on another thread… one woman on average every other day is killed as a result of domestic violence …. Fucking heartbreaking | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women." The point should be about sex pests full stop | |||
"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there Couzens wasn't a monster. He was making dental appointments for his children at the same time as plotting what he did to Sarah. But he showed the signs and those around him did nothing. His nickname was The Rapist. He could have been stopped. There were signs.
The thing that makes him a monster is how he was able to resume normal life after committing the most horrific acts imaginable.
His nickname of the "rapist" whilst being abhorrent and offensive would not have been sufficient to charge him with any offences however further consideration of the "circumstances" that lead his colleagues at his previous employer to give him that nickname and if they were ever reported to HR/professional standards.
"I agree about the nomenclature but for many it dehumanises and distances the perpetrators from everyone else. People expect horns and tails, when we should be looking for other things. It makes people comfortable to call them names and expect the issues to be obvious. How often do we hear “they were quiet and respectful, helped their neighbour with the bins. I’m so shocked, they seemed so normal!” after events like these? R*pists are ‘normal’ people, we just tell each other stories that they’re not | |||
"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there Well said. It’s not always the murderous monster that were scared of, sometimes it’s our best friends husband, that delivery driver who has to bring the washing machine into the kitchen, you’re alone and so thankful you have a dog, it’s the man who brushes past you inappropriately, the men that shout out of their window as they drive past. Men that make women feel unsafe are everywhere, and need calling out. " Any man is capable of making a woman feel unsafe hence why the majority of us are aware of our behaviour in scenarios where our presence alone is enough to cause a woman to feel unsettled. "Calling out" so often translates as empty gesture in comparison to the steps we take every day to avoid interactions that may come across as creepy. Some men don't have these boundaries with women. Some take any indifference from a woman towards their advances as the worst slight possible. | |||
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 thank you x | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop" How many men are killed at the hands of women every year? Then compare that to how many women are killed at the hands of men… you’ll see the need for a distinction then | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop How many men are killed at the hands of women every year? Then compare that to how many women are killed at the hands of men… you’ll see the need for a distinction then " I don't know and I doubt you do. I'm making the point for decency. | |||
"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there Well said. It’s not always the murderous monster that were scared of, sometimes it’s our best friends husband, that delivery driver who has to bring the washing machine into the kitchen, you’re alone and so thankful you have a dog, it’s the man who brushes past you inappropriately, the men that shout out of their window as they drive past. Men that make women feel unsafe are everywhere, and need calling out. How do guys go about doing that while being safe? Every time I go out out, I see endless situations like the ones you’ve mentioned. Guys standing too close, a girl that clearly doesn’t want to be in a conversation with “that” guy, just general creepiness/inappropriateness I hate to see it, but I’m almost certain, especially in a situation where alcohol and tender egos are involved, calling a guy out in front of a crowd almost certainly leads to a fight. I’ve actually never known how to do it so I just stay out of things that aren’t my business " I think that the idea isn't so much to call it out at the time but to make it something that men wouldn't even think of doing in the first place. If you knew that a bit of creepy or inappropriate behaviour would get you shunned by your peers and society in general then it would stop happening. At the moment it is still accepted or ignored in far to many situations and can therefore flourish. A bit like you don't need to tell someone not to drive home after a few drinks as over the last couple of generations drink driving has gone from being ok to being socially unacceptable. Sure, a hardcore few still do it but the majority of the population don't. | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop" Then maybe start another thread? You can read the title of this one. | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop Then maybe start another thread? You can read the title of this one." | |||
"I can see some of the points made but an awful lots of things seem to be along the lines of either polarisation or dismissal. I think that it’s very easy to label those that assault as monsters, it’s makes everything seem safer for guys and avoids the truth for women. The reality is that most women know a woman who has been r*ped but strangely no guys seem to know a man who has, why is that? It’s because many guys consider sexual assault to be permissible behaviour or turn a blind eye to it. Guys often are very quick to shout about standing up for their gender but in this situation they’re not willing to call out shitty behaviour from friends. There’s a deep double standard there Well said. It’s not always the murderous monster that were scared of, sometimes it’s our best friends husband, that delivery driver who has to bring the washing machine into the kitchen, you’re alone and so thankful you have a dog, it’s the man who brushes past you inappropriately, the men that shout out of their window as they drive past. Men that make women feel unsafe are everywhere, and need calling out. How do guys go about doing that while being safe? Every time I go out out, I see endless situations like the ones you’ve mentioned. Guys standing too close, a girl that clearly doesn’t want to be in a conversation with “that” guy, just general creepiness/inappropriateness I hate to see it, but I’m almost certain, especially in a situation where alcohol and tender egos are involved, calling a guy out in front of a crowd almost certainly leads to a fight. I’ve actually never known how to do it so I just stay out of things that aren’t my business I think that the idea isn't so much to call it out at the time but to make it something that men wouldn't even think of doing in the first place. If you knew that a bit of creepy or inappropriate behaviour would get you shunned by your peers and society in general then it would stop happening. At the moment it is still accepted or ignored in far to many situations and can therefore flourish. A bit like you don't need to tell someone not to drive home after a few drinks as over the last couple of generations drink driving has gone from being ok to being socially unacceptable. Sure, a hardcore few still do it but the majority of the population don't." Right right so not as much addressing it directly everyone you see it (because it might be unsafe to do so) but more working towards a society where everyone keeps everyone in check, so I don’t have to call the creepy guy at the pub out because his friends will | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop Then maybe start another thread? You can read the title of this one. "Point taken but it's not only women who suffer is my , clearly lost, issue | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop" Do me a favour. Make an account as a woman on here and compare and contrast the amount of replies you get on that account compared to here. If that's how much different the virtual experience of the "sexual marketplace" is can you even imagine how things are like in real life. If a man can't take no for answer online women have the same power to block, delete & move on as men do. In real life, there's no getting away from the physical, mental and emotional differences between the sexes that mean women are less able to repel an unwanted sexual interaction with male determined to get his own way. Yes males can be victims of male predators and less commonly female ones too but for reasons outlined above there is a completely different dynamic at play. | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop Then maybe start another thread? You can read the title of this one.
Point taken but it's not only women who suffer is my , clearly lost, issue"I don't think anyone on the thread ever suggested that only women suffer from male violence. | |||
" Right right so not as much addressing it directly everyone you see it (because it might be unsafe to do so) but more working towards a society where everyone keeps everyone in check, so I don’t have to call the creepy guy at the pub out because his friends will " Well, partly due to the safety issue, but more because very, very few men are likely to take much long-term notice of a stranger telling them their behaviour isn't acceptable. It might stop them for five minutes, or a night, whereas if friends and family were to say or act in a way that shows it isn't acceptable then it is more likely to become an ingrained behaviour. | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop Then maybe start another thread? You can read the title of this one.
Point taken but it's not only women who suffer is my , clearly lost, issue"Said it a few times … being pro women’s safety doesn’t mean being anti men’s safety … but right now … after what’s happened … women’s safety is far far more relevant | |||
" Right right so not as much addressing it directly everyone you see it (because it might be unsafe to do so) but more working towards a society where everyone keeps everyone in check, so I don’t have to call the creepy guy at the pub out because his friends will Well, partly due to the safety issue, but more because very, very few men are likely to take much long-term notice of a stranger telling them their behaviour isn't acceptable. It might stop them for five minutes, or a night, whereas if friends and family were to say or act in a way that shows it isn't acceptable then it is more likely to become an ingrained behaviour." Ok that makes sense, just always feels so shit seeing it and having to leave it. When I moved I met a guy at work and he invited me out for a few drinks with his mates. They all turned out to be total creeps. Like seriously, full on creeps. Following women around, touching, being disrespectful. They were the rough types too and I knew being the new guy I had no pull. So I just left after a short while. I felt like such a loser, but at the same time, I wasn’t sure if I was ready to get my head kicked in by a group of lads. But damnn I felt like shit about it | |||
"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop Then maybe start another thread? You can read the title of this one.
Point taken but it's not only women who suffer is my , clearly lost, issue
I don't think anyone on the thread ever suggested that only women suffer from male violence."No, it was made clear at the beginning of this thread that men are the majority of assault and murder victims...mostly by other men. Improving the situation for women would actually mean a bigger improvement for men. It would be a win-win situation. | |||
"I keep having this conversation with guys who ask to come to mine for coffee, instead of meeting in a public place. They just don't get it. "But I'm a nice guy" I'm sure you are, but past experience of "nice guys" tells me different! " And to flip it I have friends here who have been locked in a woman's house without consent. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection " How could Sarah Everard have kept herself safer? If she'd got a taxi and the driver had assaulted and killed her, someone would be telling us that women shouldn't be taking taxis alone because they should be keeping themselves safer. She was dressed from head to toe in winter clothing, walking on lit streets with others passing by. She was illegally detained by a POLICE OFFICER. She didn't strike up a random conversation with a stranger, she didn't get willingly into a stranger's car. The people who witnessed her "detention" thought it was legitimate. What the fuck could she have done, other than never set foot outdoors? Hang on, the guy who came over to fix her boiler might have done it instead, so perhaps she should just have headed to a deserted island? Absolutely nothing that Sarah Everard did was wrong. She was behaving perfectly reasonably and rationally, yet this horrific situation occurred. The individual who committed the offences had previous form for being "dodgy" and was, allegedly, effectively "protected" by colleagues who decided to just make jokes about his creepy behaviour, rather than take it seriously. What every one of us DOES need to do, is report inappropriate behaviour and push for action to be taken where it's clear something is amiss and not think it's someone else's problem. We shouldn't be debating clothing choices or taxi vs not taxi or which route Person A should take home, and that's a gender neutral statement. | |||
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"Isn't the question will everyone be safe from sexpests? No. We are talking about Male Violence against Women. The point should be about sex pests full stop Then maybe start another thread? You can read the title of this one.
Point taken but it's not only women who suffer is my , clearly lost, issue"I thought your point was very valid and has a place in this discussion. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? Women can change everything - what they wear, what route they take, not going out after dark, and it still won’t matter. We do everything to try and keep ourselves safe - and yet still we are attacked. It’s not trope - men do have to change. And yes it’s not all men, but it’s enough men to have engrained mistrust and fear in us. Kinda agree, but like I said in my post, there’s a bunch of posts trending at the moment on insta with the basic idea of “why should we protect ourselves men need to change” which is right in principle but until the world is a utopia I think that kinda thinking is harmful We all have a duty to protect ourselves, as unfair or unjust it might seem " Women already do protect themselves as much as they are able. Yes, some women get dr*nk and are in places that are unwise at times that are unwise, but so do some men. Alcohol can make anyone stupid. But you may not be aware of how many women walk with keys clutched between fingers, that have attack alarms in their handbags, that try to minimise their profile, that are ready to run at a moments notice. That get into their car and instantly hit the central locking. That get door keys ready well before they get to the front door, slip inside and put the chain across as fast as they possibly can. When you walk the metaphorical mile in the metaphorical footsteps of a woman, you quickly learn that it can be bloody frightening to be a woman. So when women say "why should we have to protect ourselves" what they actually mean is "why should we have to do so much more to protect ourselves than men do, and even then be told that we should have done better. Why should we always be told that it's our own fault that we got r@ped, when nobody tells a man that it's his own fault his wallet was stolen". Whether it is true or not, the impression that many women receive of our society is that everything is stacked in the favour of men. And that it doesn't matter how much they do to protect themselves, they will always be told that they should have done more, it's their own fault, what did they expect? | |||
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"I take no personal responsibility for the behaviour of another man unless I have influenced that man's behaviour. Did I influenced said males behaviour? No..so it has f*ck all to do with me. F*ck all is added for emphasis." You're at the opposite extreme of those who think that men just need to "call it out" and we will be living in a utopia. How would you react to a white person who reacts to incidents of racism as being "f*ck all to do with them" if they never met or interacted with the offender? In the words of my favourite comic book villain. "We live in a society" or at least he said it best | |||
"I take no personal responsibility for the behaviour of another man unless I have influenced that man's behaviour. Did I influenced said males behaviour? No..so it has f*ck all to do with me. F*ck all is added for emphasis. You're at the opposite extreme of those who think that men just need to "call it out" and we will be living in a utopia. How would you react to a white person who reacts to incidents of racism as being "f*ck all to do with them" if they never met or interacted with the offender? In the words of my favourite comic book villain. "We live in a society" or at least he said it best " I cannot bear responsibility for another persons actions unless it was within my power to affect them. When it was within my power/understanding to do so I have been there. Regardless of Race or gender. | |||
"I take no personal responsibility for the behaviour of another man unless I have influenced that man's behaviour. Did I influenced said males behaviour? No..so it has f*ck all to do with me. F*ck all is added for emphasis. You're at the opposite extreme of those who think that men just need to "call it out" and we will be living in a utopia. How would you react to a white person who reacts to incidents of racism as being "f*ck all to do with them" if they never met or interacted with the offender? In the words of my favourite comic book villain. "We live in a society" or at least he said it best " I recommend another book: Talking with Physchopath and Savages. (A journey into the evil mind) Christopher Berry-Dee. | |||
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"I take no personal responsibility for the behaviour of another man unless I have influenced that man's behaviour. Did I influenced said males behaviour? No..so it has f*ck all to do with me. F*ck all is added for emphasis. You're at the opposite extreme of those who think that men just need to "call it out" and we will be living in a utopia. How would you react to a white person who reacts to incidents of racism as being "f*ck all to do with them" if they never met or interacted with the offender? In the words of my favourite comic book villain. "We live in a society" or at least he said it best I recommend another book: Talking with Physchopath and Savages. (A journey into the evil mind) Christopher Berry-Dee." ..Physchopaths...etc | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things " I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. " Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option | |||
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"I have read many of the posts on this subject I actually think it is the best topic I have read on any forum I then smiled as it struck me the blatant oxymoron in it rather than contradictionwhy is it that the majority of women on here post sexual pictures of themselves on their profile All the in-depth investigations apart is that basically they are sexually attractive pics posted knowing that As for guys that is what we are pre programmed to respond to, not saying that we can’t override and behave That’s why dads tell their daughters to wear a bra or less revealing clothes That’s why in certain cultures women are trained to cover themselves as a requisite of their religions, whose rules are always for the advantage of the men in those societies I saw a documentary whereby men were asked what scared them most about a woman and in general it was that a woman would laugh at them When women were asked the answer was that they could be killed by a man There is no answer Always take precautions Always know what is possibly out there Be yourself but be protective of yourself I have seen how vulnerable women make themselves and the silly risks they take either knowingly or through naivety or being laisse faire The same goes for anyone of any sexual orientation in that if you leave yourself so very vulnerable then one day a predator will meet you As for this poor victim, how bad it was that she was brought up to respect the police and it was instead a vile murdering beast " So if we post sexy pictures on here are we just expected to accept any violence or attack because ‘men are programmed to respond’.  | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option " Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...! | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...! "I kind of agree but disagree with this sentiment. My attacker was someone I knew for 20 years. I understand there are things everyone can do to be safer. I wouldn't cross the road without looking. But even with everything put in place as best to your own abilities, there are people who will do the unthinkable. I don't mind having conversations about increasing safety or sharing tips on how to stay safer. But there also needs to be an equal conversation directed on how men can help make women feel safer. It's about balance between both genders to try and help solve the issue. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ?" | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...!
I kind of agree but disagree with this sentiment. My attacker was someone I knew for 20 years. I understand there are things everyone can do to be safer. I wouldn't cross the road without looking. But even with everything put in place as best to your own abilities, there are people who will do the unthinkable. I don't mind having conversations about increasing safety or sharing tips on how to stay safer. But there also needs to be an equal conversation directed on how men can help make women feel safer. It's about balance between both genders to try and help solve the issue. "Could expand on the equal parts conversation on how to make women feel safer and how that plays a role? Because my view is that I don’t care how safe my sisters feel. I care how safe they are. And I don’t think telling this vile man “do better” was gonna stop him. But my sisters taking proactive steps to protect themselves could help. Maybe I’m not understanding what you mean though by “doing things to make women feel safer”. | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...!
I kind of agree but disagree with this sentiment. My attacker was someone I knew for 20 years. I understand there are things everyone can do to be safer. I wouldn't cross the road without looking. But even with everything put in place as best to your own abilities, there are people who will do the unthinkable. I don't mind having conversations about increasing safety or sharing tips on how to stay safer. But there also needs to be an equal conversation directed on how men can help make women feel safer. It's about balance between both genders to try and help solve the issue. "So, how do men make women feel safer? I cannot imagine what it feels like to suffer what you did, but in reality, what could other men (and only other men, not all people, parents, teachers etc) do that would make that situation less likely? Mr | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...!
I kind of agree but disagree with this sentiment. My attacker was someone I knew for 20 years. I understand there are things everyone can do to be safer. I wouldn't cross the road without looking. But even with everything put in place as best to your own abilities, there are people who will do the unthinkable. I don't mind having conversations about increasing safety or sharing tips on how to stay safer. But there also needs to be an equal conversation directed on how men can help make women feel safer. It's about balance between both genders to try and help solve the issue.
So, how do men make women feel safer? I cannot imagine what it feels like to suffer what you did, but in reality, what could other men (and only other men, not all people, parents, teachers etc) do that would make that situation less likely?
Mr"It's difficult to explain, but what I was confronted with was a man who was trying to take all my strength and dignity away from me. He used his attack to put me in my place. How dare I as a woman start to stand up against him. Oh but we're married it doesn't count. I don't need to ask to do something new. Sexual violence is often used to put women back in their box. For me it was the final straw of years of abuse. How to make women feel safer, I think it would help if were stooped being asked what we were wearing etc. Because you know what it makes us feel you are getting ready to blame us, when we already are retracing every minute detail of what happened before the attack. And we're already blaming ourselves because we could have done something different. Yeah because with any tragic event something could have been done differently doesn't mean the outcome would be different. Why don't men in general not all, just say what the hell, how do you feel, is there something I can do? That makes us feel safer not asking us what we are wearing or where were you. This is rather jumbled as it's still hard to thing about. But what makes me feel safer since. Is knowing I male friends who I've spoken to about it. Who have supported me and said I didn't do anything wrong, he was in the wrong, without me having to justify my own behaviour | |||
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"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? Why do you presume that’s an option for someone?? Why is it clearly safer? Your actually yet to prove that other than your own thoughts on it. You think all women sat at home with their partners are safer? Wrong. Women that get a taxi rather than walking are safer? Wrong. Women that stay sober are safer?? Wrong. And through all of this you still focus on what a women needs to do. I’ll be honest, you sound far too heated to have a rational conversation about this, my intent wasn’t to offend or insult you, and you’ve obviously taken something the wrong way than how I tried to show it There’s a big different between Women are at fault for not taking these steps to protect themselves And There are things everyone can do to make themselves safer I’m just gonna leave you to cool down " Biggest red flag ever.... Honestly. Your attitude is disgusting and you are part of the problem. | |||
"In other words when men ask what were you wearing, where were you, did you have a drink etc etc. It feels as though you are justifying what they did, that you're on the attackers side. So it makes it more difficult for women to feel safe around men. " So maybe knowing that males have your back if something did happen? That makes you feel safer from judgement? But how would we go about making you feel safer in the moment itself? Or actually being safer, not just feeling it? | |||
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"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...!
I kind of agree but disagree with this sentiment. My attacker was someone I knew for 20 years. I understand there are things everyone can do to be safer. I wouldn't cross the road without looking. But even with everything put in place as best to your own abilities, there are people who will do the unthinkable. I don't mind having conversations about increasing safety or sharing tips on how to stay safer. But there also needs to be an equal conversation directed on how men can help make women feel safer. It's about balance between both genders to try and help solve the issue.
So, how do men make women feel safer? I cannot imagine what it feels like to suffer what you did, but in reality, what could other men (and only other men, not all people, parents, teachers etc) do that would make that situation less likely?
Mr
It's difficult to explain, but what I was confronted with was a man who was trying to take all my strength and dignity away from me. He used his attack to put me in my place. How dare I as a woman start to stand up against him. Oh but we're married it doesn't count. I don't need to ask to do something new. Sexual violence is often used to put women back in their box. For me it was the final straw of years of abuse.
How to make women feel safer, I think it would help if were stooped being asked what we were wearing etc. Because you know what it makes us feel you are getting ready to blame us, when we already are retracing every minute detail of what happened before the attack. And we're already blaming ourselves because we could have done something different. Yeah because with any tragic event something could have been done differently doesn't mean the outcome would be different.
Why don't men in general not all, just say what the hell, how do you feel, is there something I can do? That makes us feel safer not asking us what we are wearing or where were you.
This is rather jumbled as it's still hard to thing about. But what makes me feel safer since. Is knowing I male friends who I've spoken to about it. Who have supported me and said I didn't do anything wrong, he was in the wrong, without me having to justify my own behaviour"Totally understand what you're saying and agree, you did nothing wrong. Looking at this thread there seems to be a major problem where an idea offered in one circumstance is taken to mean the author believes it applies in all circumstances and that they therefore don't understand. In the case of partner abuse, as you say, there is nothing you can do or say or any way of dressing that makes a difference. That isn't to say that in order to reduce the likelihood of stranger attack then certain precautions make sense (bear in mind being female makes you less at risk of this for a start). In the case of Sarah Everard then she was just incredibly unlucky with being in the wrong place at the wrong time, much like (for example) Damilola Taylor. To use these examples, telling kids that not getting involved in gangs will reduce their chances of being stabbed in no way suggests that Damilola was somehow responsible for his murder whilst remaining objectively goodand true advice. Similarly, telling women not to stumble home semi dressed and dr@nk while perfectly good advice in no way means that Sarah Everard (or you) did anything wrong or were in anyway to blame. Also, comments about what a woman was wearing or how she was behaving prior to an attack are a likely to be made by other women as they are by men. Recognising that women are not to blame for their attackers behaviour is nowhere near as gendered as the attacks themselves are. Mr | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...!
I kind of agree but disagree with this sentiment. My attacker was someone I knew for 20 years. I understand there are things everyone can do to be safer. I wouldn't cross the road without looking. But even with everything put in place as best to your own abilities, there are people who will do the unthinkable. I don't mind having conversations about increasing safety or sharing tips on how to stay safer. But there also needs to be an equal conversation directed on how men can help make women feel safer. It's about balance between both genders to try and help solve the issue.
So, how do men make women feel safer? I cannot imagine what it feels like to suffer what you did, but in reality, what could other men (and only other men, not all people, parents, teachers etc) do that would make that situation less likely?
Mr
It's difficult to explain, but what I was confronted with was a man who was trying to take all my strength and dignity away from me. He used his attack to put me in my place. How dare I as a woman start to stand up against him. Oh but we're married it doesn't count. I don't need to ask to do something new. Sexual violence is often used to put women back in their box. For me it was the final straw of years of abuse.
How to make women feel safer, I think it would help if were stooped being asked what we were wearing etc. Because you know what it makes us feel you are getting ready to blame us, when we already are retracing every minute detail of what happened before the attack. And we're already blaming ourselves because we could have done something different. Yeah because with any tragic event something could have been done differently doesn't mean the outcome would be different.
Why don't men in general not all, just say what the hell, how do you feel, is there something I can do? That makes us feel safer not asking us what we are wearing or where were you.
This is rather jumbled as it's still hard to thing about. But what makes me feel safer since. Is knowing I male friends who I've spoken to about it. Who have supported me and said I didn't do anything wrong, he was in the wrong, without me having to justify my own behaviour
Totally understand what you're saying and agree, you did nothing wrong.
Looking at this thread there seems to be a major problem where an idea offered in one circumstance is taken to mean the author believes it applies in all circumstances and that they therefore don't understand. In the case of partner abuse, as you say, there is nothing you can do or say or any way of dressing that makes a difference. That isn't to say that in order to reduce the likelihood of stranger attack then certain precautions make sense (bear in mind being female makes you less at risk of this for a start).
In the case of Sarah Everard then she was just incredibly unlucky with being in the wrong place at the wrong time, much like (for example) Damilola Taylor. To use these examples, telling kids that not getting involved in gangs will reduce their chances of being stabbed in no way suggests that Damilola was somehow responsible for his murder whilst remaining objectively goodand true advice. Similarly, telling women not to stumble home semi dressed and dr@nk while perfectly good advice in no way means that Sarah Everard (or you) did anything wrong or were in anyway to blame.
Also, comments about what a woman was wearing or how she was behaving prior to an attack are a likely to be made by other women as they are by men. Recognising that women are not to blame for their attackers behaviour is nowhere near as gendered as the attacks themselves are.
Mr"Im glad someone else noticed that “Getting a taxi is probably safer than walking home alone” “But you can still get attacked in a taxi!!!?!’bbv!!! Your the problem111-!!!!?!? ” Yeah and lightning can randomly strike, doesn’t mean standing on top of a hill in a lightning storm holding a giant metal rod is the same risk. It’s about mitigating risk where you can. Some of you sound like the anti vax crew. “You can still catch covid with the vaccine?!?!???” Yeah, your never totally safe, but we can take steps to try and be safer No doubt someone will misinterpret this and say I’m saying covid is the same as a murderer and that I am again, part of the problem | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things You've missed the point. Everyone should take steps to be as safe as possible, you are right in that much and both men and women do this all the time. What women are doing is shifting the focus from them taking the blame for being victims of sexual assault. A woman was not sexually assaulted and murdered. A MAN sexually assaulted and murdered. A woman is not sexually assaulted and murdered because of where she walks or what she wears. A man sexually assaults and murders women because he can. To be blunt - Sarah Everard was wearing a bobble hat, a heavy green coat, long trousers, trainers...... full winter wear. She was walking in a LIT street. Not a park. What women wear and where they walk makes no difference. Why should women be told..... Change your clothes or be attacked ? I dunno, all I hope is that my sisters and mum and females friends I have are smart enough to not fall for this “we’re not changing anything, men have to change” trope and instead pick the safer options to protect themselves the best they can Because what’s the alternative? Not keeping yourself safe? And this response here is part of the problem. This attitude. There is no such thing as ‘a safer option’. That has been proven time and time again. Unbelievable Care to explain rather than just say it’s part of the problem and unbelievable? There’s safer routes home. Getting a taxi is safer than walking. Not entirely safe, but much like seatbelts, they are options that grant a level of protection I’d probably say I’ve had more trouble from men in a taxi than I have walking home…so again, what is a ‘safer option’?? There is absolutely no such thing. So you’d say that staying at home with yoir partner is just as safe as going out to a dangerous part of town and getting so d*unk you can’t look after yourself? Who says we do that?? What I’m saying to you, is there is no such thing as a safer option! And this attitude you have that we can do stuff to prevent these fucking psycho’s attacking innocent women is beyond insulting. But I’ve just given an example of 2 situations where one is clearly safer than the other? Is waking home alone at night safer than ringing a friend and asking for a lift? Why do you presume that’s an option for someone?? Why is it clearly safer? Your actually yet to prove that other than your own thoughts on it. You think all women sat at home with their partners are safer? Wrong. Women that get a taxi rather than walking are safer? Wrong. Women that stay sober are safer?? Wrong. And through all of this you still focus on what a women needs to do. I’ll be honest, you sound far too heated to have a rational conversation about this, my intent wasn’t to offend or insult you, and you’ve obviously taken something the wrong way than how I tried to show it There’s a big different between Women are at fault for not taking these steps to protect themselves And There are things everyone can do to make themselves safer I’m just gonna leave you to cool down Biggest red flag ever.... Honestly. Your attitude is disgusting and you are part of the problem." He absolutely is. But he will never ever see this. I’d never ever go near a ‘man’ like this. Thank fuck he makes it easy for all us women to see he’s one to avoid. | |||
"In other words when men ask what were you wearing, where were you, did you have a drink etc etc. It feels as though you are justifying what they did, that you're on the attackers side. So it makes it more difficult for women to feel safe around men. So maybe knowing that males have your back if something did happen? That makes you feel safer from judgement? But how would we go about making you feel safer in the moment itself? Or actually being safer, not just feeling it?" It's not judgement as such. Knowing the males around you will maybe understand that even a touch of your hand is enough to freak you completely out or a simple phrase. Knowing you've got our backs will make us feel safer to reach out for help from you when you need it. Like even if you are worried about walking in the park in daylight for example. You don't question it you just get it. If women feel you aren't judging us as much we're more likely to ask for support. | |||
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"In other words when men ask what were you wearing, where were you, did you have a drink etc etc. It feels as though you are justifying what they did, that you're on the attackers side. So it makes it more difficult for women to feel safe around men. So maybe knowing that males have your back if something did happen? That makes you feel safer from judgement? But how would we go about making you feel safer in the moment itself? Or actually being safer, not just feeling it? It's not judgement as such. Knowing the males around you will maybe understand that even a touch of your hand is enough to freak you completely out or a simple phrase. Knowing you've got our backs will make us feel safer to reach out for help from you when you need it. Like even if you are worried about walking in the park in daylight for example. You don't question it you just get it. If women feel you aren't judging us as much we're more likely to ask for support. " Right! Ok the ability to shamelessly ask for the support, got it. Hasn’t even thought of that angle before. Do you feel that way sometimes? Like your worries or requests might be dismissed, and you end up doing stuff you’d rather not do alone/without support because of it? Because I feel like ties in with my point. Every female friend I have id happily walk home at the end of the night, but it’s never occurred to me that while they might want that to feel safe and take the safer option (to tack on my point) maybe they feel they’d be judged for asking? “Oh I don’t wanna be a bother” kinda thing? | |||
"And also….Sarah was not in ‘the wrong place, at the wrong time’ this is what is meant how it’s always deflected on the woman. She was where she was meant to be and within her rights to be. It’s the man who did it to her that’s the problem!! He was wrong, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. In the last couple of days my attitude towards men is changing quickly. I have little respect for lots of attitudes on here. " Yeah, that's just semantics. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time when my face got stamped all over for absolutely no reason, doesn't mean I was too blame (uk he my attitude of going over to help a woman off the floor after being punched by her boyfriend is both blame worthy and an attitude you have no respect for). My mates daughter was in the wrong place at the wrong time when she was blasted across her bedroom by a lightning strike on the house, doesn't mean she was to blame. Damilola Taylor was in the wrong place at the wrong time when he was stabbed to death, doesn't mean he was to blame (though I notice you didn't defend him) Stop looking for offense where there is none. Mr | |||
"And also….Sarah was not in ‘the wrong place, at the wrong time’ this is what is meant how it’s always deflected on the woman. She was where she was meant to be and within her rights to be. It’s the man who did it to her that’s the problem!! He was wrong, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. In the last couple of days my attitude towards men is changing quickly. I have little respect for lots of attitudes on here. Yeah, that's just semantics. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time when my face got stamped all over for absolutely no reason, doesn't mean I was too blame (uk he my attitude of going over to help a woman off the floor after being punched by her boyfriend is both blame worthy and an attitude you have no respect for). My mates daughter was in the wrong place at the wrong time when she was blasted across her bedroom by a lightning strike on the house, doesn't mean she was to blame. Damilola Taylor was in the wrong place at the wrong time when he was stabbed to death, doesn't mean he was to blame (though I notice you didn't defend him) Stop looking for offense where there is none. Mr" Ohhh….because I don’t agree with you I must be wrong?? There’s a surprise. | |||
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"And also….Sarah was not in ‘the wrong place, at the wrong time’ this is what is meant how it’s always deflected on the woman. She was where she was meant to be and within her rights to be. It’s the man who did it to her that’s the problem!! He was wrong, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. In the last couple of days my attitude towards men is changing quickly. I have little respect for lots of attitudes on here. Yeah, that's just semantics. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time when my face got stamped all over for absolutely no reason, doesn't mean I was too blame (uk he my attitude of going over to help a woman off the floor after being punched by her boyfriend is both blame worthy and an attitude you have no respect for). My mates daughter was in the wrong place at the wrong time when she was blasted across her bedroom by a lightning strike on the house, doesn't mean she was to blame. Damilola Taylor was in the wrong place at the wrong time when he was stabbed to death, doesn't mean he was to blame (though I notice you didn't defend him) Stop looking for offense where there is none. Mr" I’d stop replying the the ones not willing to have discussions There’s a few on here dropping absolute knowledge bombs about their experiences. Don’t waste your effort on people that will only reply with “your the problem”. It’s just a waste of time | |||
"And also….Sarah was not in ‘the wrong place, at the wrong time’ this is what is meant how it’s always deflected on the woman. She was where she was meant to be and within her rights to be. It’s the man who did it to her that’s the problem!! He was wrong, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. In the last couple of days my attitude towards men is changing quickly. I have little respect for lots of attitudes on here. Yeah, that's just semantics. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time when my face got stamped all over for absolutely no reason, doesn't mean I was too blame (uk he my attitude of going over to help a woman off the floor after being punched by her boyfriend is both blame worthy and an attitude you have no respect for). My mates daughter was in the wrong place at the wrong time when she was blasted across her bedroom by a lightning strike on the house, doesn't mean she was to blame. Damilola Taylor was in the wrong place at the wrong time when he was stabbed to death, doesn't mean he was to blame (though I notice you didn't defend him) Stop looking for offense where there is none. Mr I’d stop replying the the ones not willing to have discussions There’s a few on here dropping absolute knowledge bombs about their experiences. Don’t waste your effort on people that will only reply with “your the problem”. It’s just a waste of time " What he means is……if I can’t convince her I’m right, and she will insist on having an opinion of her own, I will tell her she’s wrong, up until the point i realise it’s not working, then I’ll I give in, and then I’ll ignore her comments because I can’t enforce my opinion on her. | |||
"I didn’t mention damilola or anyone else because this is a thread about women feeling safe…and you’re trying to make it about men, and trying to belittle women’s opinions about their own fears of safety. It isn’t not a race to the bottom. We feel how we feel. We are not wrong even if you say we are. Shame on you. " In what way have I belittled women's feelings? Mr | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...!
I kind of agree but disagree with this sentiment. My attacker was someone I knew for 20 years. I understand there are things everyone can do to be safer. I wouldn't cross the road without looking. But even with everything put in place as best to your own abilities, there are people who will do the unthinkable. I don't mind having conversations about increasing safety or sharing tips on how to stay safer. But there also needs to be an equal conversation directed on how men can help make women feel safer. It's about balance between both genders to try and help solve the issue.
So, how do men make women feel safer? I cannot imagine what it feels like to suffer what you did, but in reality, what could other men (and only other men, not all people, parents, teachers etc) do that would make that situation less likely?
Mr
It's difficult to explain, but what I was confronted with was a man who was trying to take all my strength and dignity away from me. He used his attack to put me in my place. How dare I as a woman start to stand up against him. Oh but we're married it doesn't count. I don't need to ask to do something new. Sexual violence is often used to put women back in their box. For me it was the final straw of years of abuse.
How to make women feel safer, I think it would help if were stooped being asked what we were wearing etc. Because you know what it makes us feel you are getting ready to blame us, when we already are retracing every minute detail of what happened before the attack. And we're already blaming ourselves because we could have done something different. Yeah because with any tragic event something could have been done differently doesn't mean the outcome would be different.
Why don't men in general not all, just say what the hell, how do you feel, is there something I can do? That makes us feel safer not asking us what we are wearing or where were you.
This is rather jumbled as it's still hard to thing about. But what makes me feel safer since. Is knowing I male friends who I've spoken to about it. Who have supported me and said I didn't do anything wrong, he was in the wrong, without me having to justify my own behaviour
Totally understand what you're saying and agree, you did nothing wrong.
Looking at this thread there seems to be a major problem where an idea offered in one circumstance is taken to mean the author believes it applies in all circumstances and that they therefore don't understand. In the case of partner abuse, as you say, there is nothing you can do or say or any way of dressing that makes a difference. That isn't to say that in order to reduce the likelihood of stranger attack then certain precautions make sense (bear in mind being female makes you less at risk of this for a start).
In the case of Sarah Everard then she was just incredibly unlucky with being in the wrong place at the wrong time, much like (for example) Damilola Taylor. To use these examples, telling kids that not getting involved in gangs will reduce their chances of being stabbed in no way suggests that Damilola was somehow responsible for his murder whilst remaining objectively goodand true advice. Similarly, telling women not to stumble home semi dressed and dr@nk while perfectly good advice in no way means that Sarah Everard (or you) did anything wrong or were in anyway to blame.
Also, comments about what a woman was wearing or how she was behaving prior to an attack are a likely to be made by other women as they are by men. Recognising that women are not to blame for their attackers behaviour is nowhere near as gendered as the attacks themselves are.
Mr"The comments may well come from both genders. But I was attacked by a male. It's a heck of a lot easier to brush it off from a woman. If a man says but she was wearing xyz or walking somewhere dodgy. How am I supposed to know they don't think she was "asking for it"? Do they think it was ok for them to do it? How is that supposed to make me feel safe in their presence? | |||
"In other words when men ask what were you wearing, where were you, did you have a drink etc etc. It feels as though you are justifying what they did, that you're on the attackers side. So it makes it more difficult for women to feel safe around men. So maybe knowing that males have your back if something did happen? That makes you feel safer from judgement? But how would we go about making you feel safer in the moment itself? Or actually being safer, not just feeling it? It's not judgement as such. Knowing the males around you will maybe understand that even a touch of your hand is enough to freak you completely out or a simple phrase. Knowing you've got our backs will make us feel safer to reach out for help from you when you need it. Like even if you are worried about walking in the park in daylight for example. You don't question it you just get it. If women feel you aren't judging us as much we're more likely to ask for support. Right! Ok the ability to shamelessly ask for the support, got it. Hasn’t even thought of that angle before. Do you feel that way sometimes? Like your worries or requests might be dismissed, and you end up doing stuff you’d rather not do alone/without support because of it? Because I feel like ties in with my point. Every female friend I have id happily walk home at the end of the night, but it’s never occurred to me that while they might want that to feel safe and take the safer option (to tack on my point) maybe they feel they’d be judged for asking? “Oh I don’t wanna be a bother” kinda thing? " My best bloke mates when I lived in a city centre always walked me to my door. I never asked they just did it because they understood. And it was that mutual understanding that made me feel safer. And I don't want to have conversations with blokes saying some guy is making me feel uncomfortable and them look me up and down. And feel they are judging you and indirectly saying it's your fault. Instead of saying he's a twat and give you hug and give him evil eyes. | |||
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"I have read many of the posts on this subject I actually think it is the best topic I have read on any forum I then smiled as it struck me the blatant oxymoron in it rather than contradictionwhy is it that the majority of women on here post sexual pictures of themselves on their profile All the in-depth investigations apart is that basically they are sexually attractive pics posted knowing that As for guys that is what we are pre programmed to respond to, not saying that we can’t override and behave That’s why dads tell their daughters to wear a bra or less revealing clothes That’s why in certain cultures women are trained to cover themselves as a requisite of their religions, whose rules are always for the advantage of the men in those societies I saw a documentary whereby men were asked what scared them most about a woman and in general it was that a woman would laugh at them When women were asked the answer was that they could be killed by a man There is no answer Always take precautions Always know what is possibly out there Be yourself but be protective of yourself I have seen how vulnerable women make themselves and the silly risks they take either knowingly or through naivety or being laisse faire The same goes for anyone of any sexual orientation in that if you leave yourself so very vulnerable then one day a predator will meet you As for this poor victim, how bad it was that she was brought up to respect the police and it was instead a vile murdering beast So if we post sexy pictures on here are we just expected to accept any violence or attack because ‘men are programmed to respond’. "I said it’s an oxymoron | |||
"Personally I don't live my life in fear of men .And before anyone decides to have a go about I'm lucky and I must never have had a bad experience well you're wrong because I did have a horrific experience with someone years ago .Does that make me think all men have a responsibility to keep me safe or to have to take the blame because of one arseholes actions no it doesn't. I won't live my life in fear I take whatever precautions I can do to keep myself safe it's not going to help with a predator who attacks women but luckily they are far and few between .But I'm certainly not expecting every man to have to cross the road if I'm walking down it or go out of his way to make sure I don't feel uneasy.Or expect every man to somehow have to feel guilty he is male and treats women well because of a few dickheads who don't .Which seems to be the attitude on a lot of these thread normal guys getting slammed mainly because they are male by a load of females who seem to have decided all men need to take responsibility for the few. " I certainly don’t think that. But I also don’t think I need to change anything I do because a man seems it safer. | |||
"Personally I don't live my life in fear of men .And before anyone decides to have a go about I'm lucky and I must never have had a bad experience well you're wrong because I did have a horrific experience with someone years ago .Does that make me think all men have a responsibility to keep me safe or to have to take the blame because of one arseholes actions no it doesn't. I won't live my life in fear I take whatever precautions I can do to keep myself safe it's not going to help with a predator who attacks women but luckily they are far and few between .But I'm certainly not expecting every man to have to cross the road if I'm walking down it or go out of his way to make sure I don't feel uneasy.Or expect every man to somehow have to feel guilty he is male and treats women well because of a few dickheads who don't .Which seems to be the attitude on a lot of these thread normal guys getting slammed mainly because they are male by a load of females who seem to have decided all men need to take responsibility for the few. I certainly don’t think that. But I also don’t think I need to change anything I do because a man seems it safer. " No you shouldn't have to do that either. | |||
"Lots there I agree with. As you say, gender apparently doesn't exist until people want it to. The idea that all men are responsible for the way some men behave is as wrong as saying all Muslims are responsible for Islamic extremism. I don't know the answers either though I think statistics are helpful. Men are actually far more likely than women to suffer violence at the hands of a stranger. I have been the victim of a sustained and violent attack that nearly killed me - ironically going to help a woman being punched by her boyfriend. She stood and watched as her b/f's mate attacked me from behind then both guys kicked and stamped my face on and off for several minutes before walking off together with them laughing. That did indeed lead to a period of time where I was very uncomfortable alone at night, a fear I learnt to overcome because it was irrational and affecting my life negatively. On the other hand, women are at far far higher risk from men they know. Domestic violence is a much bigger issue but is routinely swept under the carpet, recent events have been scrutinised and discussed in the media fueling this fear of stranger attack while 2 women a week die at the hands of a current or former partner yet their stories are rarely heard. Mr" Absolutely agree with this. As a woman I was surprised that the police are now making a point of ‘making women safe’ an the streets when - as you say - men are far more likely to be victims of violent crime on the streets - and women and children are more likely to be victims of violent crime in their own home. I imagine it was a gut reaction to the fact that a police officer was the perpetrator of a violent crime on this occasion - so they feel compelled to take tangible action. Sadly I don’t think there’s a magic answer - a small percentage of people are always going to be violent or abusive to others simply because they can! | |||
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"I'm a guy, I got mugged. The cops told me it was cause the jacket I was wearing had a big pouch pocket at the front and they could easily access it." I was randomly attacked on a night out and needed 3 surgeries to sort myself out. The police refused to look into it because I was d*unk when it happened | |||
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"I'm a guy, I got mugged. The cops told me it was cause the jacket I was wearing had a big pouch pocket at the front and they could easily access it. I was randomly attacked on a night out and needed 3 surgeries to sort myself out. The police refused to look into it because I was d*unk when it happened "
Are you ok xxxx | |||
"In other words when men ask what were you wearing, where were you, did you have a drink etc etc. It feels as though you are justifying what they did, that you're on the attackers side. So it makes it more difficult for women to feel safe around men. So maybe knowing that males have your back if something did happen? That makes you feel safer from judgement? But how would we go about making you feel safer in the moment itself? Or actually being safer, not just feeling it? It's not judgement as such. Knowing the males around you will maybe understand that even a touch of your hand is enough to freak you completely out or a simple phrase. Knowing you've got our backs will make us feel safer to reach out for help from you when you need it. Like even if you are worried about walking in the park in daylight for example. You don't question it you just get it. If women feel you aren't judging us as much we're more likely to ask for support. Right! Ok the ability to shamelessly ask for the support, got it. Hasn’t even thought of that angle before. Do you feel that way sometimes? Like your worries or requests might be dismissed, and you end up doing stuff you’d rather not do alone/without support because of it? Because I feel like ties in with my point. Every female friend I have id happily walk home at the end of the night, but it’s never occurred to me that while they might want that to feel safe and take the safer option (to tack on my point) maybe they feel they’d be judged for asking? “Oh I don’t wanna be a bother” kinda thing? My best bloke mates when I lived in a city centre always walked me to my door. I never asked they just did it because they understood. And it was that mutual understanding that made me feel safer. And I don't want to have conversations with blokes saying some guy is making me feel uncomfortable and them look me up and down. And feel they are judging you and indirectly saying it's your fault. Instead of saying he's a twat and give you hug and give him evil eyes. " Trying to answer both your points. You say it is easier to dismiss those comments from a woman but with a man you just never know. Let's apply that to another group, you're having a conversation at work about the Taliban take over in Afghanistan, do you expect a higher level of condemnation from a Muslim colleague than from all the others because without this you have no way of knowing if he secretly sympathises with them? In terms of support - that goes without saying, if someone is uncomfortable in any situation, male or female then true friends recognise that and offer support. This is something that is hard for strangers to achieve, both because we are all much less likely to open up about our vulnerabilities to them and also because they don't know us well enough to recognise our discomfort. Mr | |||
"Of course we all know to take precautions to keep ourself safe, but that's not what this should be about. I've been abused and harassed as a young child in barbie pyjamas, in a taxi where I thought I was safe, in school, a busy shop, by family and friends that I trusted, in the middle of the day in a crowded street and countless other places. Do you not see that no matter what women fucking do it still happens? I just find it gets a little tiring hearing the same thing all the time about how we should look after ourselves. Now the problem here is men. And what I think you can do to help females have a safer environment is call them out and influence them to treat women as equals, women are not meaningless toys like so many seem to think. What else can a woman do? I do believe the power is in a mans hands to make a difference. If a woman does call a man out on his behaviour most of them genuinely couldn't give a shit as they see us an inferior. I have told people in the past their behaviour is unacceptable and get laughed at. Yet a male does the same thing and usually it's a quick apology or "I was only joking mate!". I do believe this will always be a problem although hopefully as time goes on more people will start to treat females like a human which will result in less abuse and harassment. When my 60 year old uncle was sexually assaulting me for years not one single person called him out for his creepy behaviour in public and the way he spoke about women. Maybe if someone who he didn't see as beneath him had of put him in his place growing up and told him to show some respect to women then things might have been different and he wouldn't have viewed women as disposable rubbish. Maybe if those who joked with Wayne Couzens and laughed about his nickname The Rapist had of showed him serious consequences of his actions when he was making females uncomfortable then Sarah might still be alive. We don't know for sure, maybe it might not have stopped his monstrous ways... but the point is we need to do better, raise our sons better and try to make some kind of difference where we can because you never know what your actions could prevent. " Bravo. I’m so sorry to read about your experiences and thank you for sharing them. I absolutely agree with everything that you’ve written | |||
"In other words when men ask what were you wearing, where were you, did you have a drink etc etc. It feels as though you are justifying what they did, that you're on the attackers side. So it makes it more difficult for women to feel safe around men. So maybe knowing that males have your back if something did happen? That makes you feel safer from judgement? But how would we go about making you feel safer in the moment itself? Or actually being safer, not just feeling it? It's not judgement as such. Knowing the males around you will maybe understand that even a touch of your hand is enough to freak you completely out or a simple phrase. Knowing you've got our backs will make us feel safer to reach out for help from you when you need it. Like even if you are worried about walking in the park in daylight for example. You don't question it you just get it. If women feel you aren't judging us as much we're more likely to ask for support. Right! Ok the ability to shamelessly ask for the support, got it. Hasn’t even thought of that angle before. Do you feel that way sometimes? Like your worries or requests might be dismissed, and you end up doing stuff you’d rather not do alone/without support because of it? Because I feel like ties in with my point. Every female friend I have id happily walk home at the end of the night, but it’s never occurred to me that while they might want that to feel safe and take the safer option (to tack on my point) maybe they feel they’d be judged for asking? “Oh I don’t wanna be a bother” kinda thing? My best bloke mates when I lived in a city centre always walked me to my door. I never asked they just did it because they understood. And it was that mutual understanding that made me feel safer. And I don't want to have conversations with blokes saying some guy is making me feel uncomfortable and them look me up and down. And feel they are judging you and indirectly saying it's your fault. Instead of saying he's a twat and give you hug and give him evil eyes. Trying to answer both your points. You say it is easier to dismiss those comments from a woman but with a man you just never know. Let's apply that to another group, you're having a conversation at work about the Taliban take over in Afghanistan, do you expect a higher level of condemnation from a Muslim colleague than from all the others because without this you have no way of knowing if he secretly sympathises with them? In terms of support - that goes without saying, if someone is uncomfortable in any situation, male or female then true friends recognise that and offer support. This is something that is hard for strangers to achieve, both because we are all much less likely to open up about our vulnerabilities to them and also because they don't know us well enough to recognise our discomfort. Mr" It’s a false equivalence to use the Taliban/Muslim argument, however, the MCE (Muslim council for England) have been very vocal in denouncing terror attacks on English soil. Rather than drawing false analogies, how would you recommend solving the issue? | |||
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"In other words when men ask what were you wearing, where were you, did you have a drink etc etc. It feels as though you are justifying what they did, that you're on the attackers side. So it makes it more difficult for women to feel safe around men. So maybe knowing that males have your back if something did happen? That makes you feel safer from judgement? But how would we go about making you feel safer in the moment itself? Or actually being safer, not just feeling it? It's not judgement as such. Knowing the males around you will maybe understand that even a touch of your hand is enough to freak you completely out or a simple phrase. Knowing you've got our backs will make us feel safer to reach out for help from you when you need it. Like even if you are worried about walking in the park in daylight for example. You don't question it you just get it. If women feel you aren't judging us as much we're more likely to ask for support. Right! Ok the ability to shamelessly ask for the support, got it. Hasn’t even thought of that angle before. Do you feel that way sometimes? Like your worries or requests might be dismissed, and you end up doing stuff you’d rather not do alone/without support because of it? Because I feel like ties in with my point. Every female friend I have id happily walk home at the end of the night, but it’s never occurred to me that while they might want that to feel safe and take the safer option (to tack on my point) maybe they feel they’d be judged for asking? “Oh I don’t wanna be a bother” kinda thing? My best bloke mates when I lived in a city centre always walked me to my door. I never asked they just did it because they understood. And it was that mutual understanding that made me feel safer. And I don't want to have conversations with blokes saying some guy is making me feel uncomfortable and them look me up and down. And feel they are judging you and indirectly saying it's your fault. Instead of saying he's a twat and give you hug and give him evil eyes. Trying to answer both your points. You say it is easier to dismiss those comments from a woman but with a man you just never know. Let's apply that to another group, you're having a conversation at work about the Taliban take over in Afghanistan, do you expect a higher level of condemnation from a Muslim colleague than from all the others because without this you have no way of knowing if he secretly sympathises with them? In terms of support - that goes without saying, if someone is uncomfortable in any situation, male or female then true friends recognise that and offer support. This is something that is hard for strangers to achieve, both because we are all much less likely to open up about our vulnerabilities to them and also because they don't know us well enough to recognise our discomfort. Mr" You're not quite getting my point. The conversations about the Taliban yes it's serious and horrific, but is that an imminent threat to me having that conversation in an office? nope. Have a conversation in an office about a sexual assault that is on the news and you have judgement of the women by a male colleague. Am I going to wary if I have to work late alone with them? Or feel uncomfortable in certain situations? I then have to risk assess myself if I am concerned they find justifications for attacks. That risk assessment may be that I deem them ok or sometimes not. But having to do that risk assessment isn't a comfortable process. | |||
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"In other words when men ask what were you wearing, where were you, did you have a drink etc etc. It feels as though you are justifying what they did, that you're on the attackers side. So it makes it more difficult for women to feel safe around men. So maybe knowing that males have your back if something did happen? That makes you feel safer from judgement? But how would we go about making you feel safer in the moment itself? Or actually being safer, not just feeling it? It's not judgement as such. Knowing the males around you will maybe understand that even a touch of your hand is enough to freak you completely out or a simple phrase. Knowing you've got our backs will make us feel safer to reach out for help from you when you need it. Like even if you are worried about walking in the park in daylight for example. You don't question it you just get it. If women feel you aren't judging us as much we're more likely to ask for support. Right! Ok the ability to shamelessly ask for the support, got it. Hasn’t even thought of that angle before. Do you feel that way sometimes? Like your worries or requests might be dismissed, and you end up doing stuff you’d rather not do alone/without support because of it? Because I feel like ties in with my point. Every female friend I have id happily walk home at the end of the night, but it’s never occurred to me that while they might want that to feel safe and take the safer option (to tack on my point) maybe they feel they’d be judged for asking? “Oh I don’t wanna be a bother” kinda thing? My best bloke mates when I lived in a city centre always walked me to my door. I never asked they just did it because they understood. And it was that mutual understanding that made me feel safer. And I don't want to have conversations with blokes saying some guy is making me feel uncomfortable and them look me up and down. And feel they are judging you and indirectly saying it's your fault. Instead of saying he's a twat and give you hug and give him evil eyes. Trying to answer both your points. You say it is easier to dismiss those comments from a woman but with a man you just never know. Let's apply that to another group, you're having a conversation at work about the Taliban take over in Afghanistan, do you expect a higher level of condemnation from a Muslim colleague than from all the others because without this you have no way of knowing if he secretly sympathises with them? In terms of support - that goes without saying, if someone is uncomfortable in any situation, male or female then true friends recognise that and offer support. This is something that is hard for strangers to achieve, both because we are all much less likely to open up about our vulnerabilities to them and also because they don't know us well enough to recognise our discomfort. Mr It’s a false equivalence to use the Taliban/Muslim argument, however, the MCE (Muslim council for England) have been very vocal in denouncing terror attacks on English soil. Rather than drawing false analogies, how would you recommend solving the issue? " It's not a false equivalence at all, it's exactly the same thing. It is the idea that all people within a group that includes the offenders are more responsible for that offending than the rest of society simply due to the fact that by virtue of being a part of that group they are indistinguishable from the offenders by strangers. The Muslim Council have indeed been vocal in their condemnation. I would suggest most men are too, even the ones who believe its ok to slap their G/F in a row will talk about beating the shit out of such offenders .... I believe that society as a whole needs to change its attitudes to women, as the lady a few posts up said, we need to see women as humans. That though is the responsibility of all, not just men. I have asked if there is something that only men can do but the question remains unanswered except to expect to be held to a higher standard than women due to being a man. Mr | |||
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"Of course we all know to take precautions to keep ourself safe, but that's not what this should be about. I've been abused and harassed as a young child in barbie pyjamas, in a taxi where I thought I was safe, in school, a busy shop, by family and friends that I trusted, in the middle of the day in a crowded street and countless other places. Do you not see that no matter what women fucking do it still happens? I just find it gets a little tiring hearing the same thing all the time about how we should look after ourselves. Now the problem here is men. And what I think you can do to help females have a safer environment is call them out and influence them to treat women as equals, women are not meaningless toys like so many seem to think. What else can a woman do? I do believe the power is in a mans hands to make a difference. If a woman does call a man out on his behaviour most of them genuinely couldn't give a shit as they see us an inferior. I have told people in the past their behaviour is unacceptable and get laughed at. Yet a male does the same thing and usually it's a quick apology or "I was only joking mate!". I do believe this will always be a problem although hopefully as time goes on more people will start to treat females like a human which will result in less abuse and harassment. When my 60 year old uncle was sexually assaulting me for years not one single person called him out for his creepy behaviour in public and the way he spoke about women. Maybe if someone who he didn't see as beneath him had of put him in his place growing up and told him to show some respect to women then things might have been different and he wouldn't have viewed women as disposable rubbish. Maybe if those who joked with Wayne Couzens and laughed about his nickname The Rapist had of showed him serious consequences of his actions when he was making females uncomfortable then Sarah might still be alive. We don't know for sure, maybe it might not have stopped his monstrous ways... but the point is we need to do better, raise our sons better and try to make some kind of difference where we can because you never know what your actions could prevent. " 100% hoping ive raised mine to be better .. One of the difficulties is there are some of us guys who dont get the mentality either. Some of the best bosses Ive had have been women, I've trained and sparred with women, (try telling one of the olympic boxers they are inferior I dare you), Ive raced and hillclimbed cars with women... and the rest of the things you can do, but always with them not to them, thats the difference i think
So all this "women are inferior" is just bollocks
The inferiority is with inadequate men who can't handle that,
tricky people to deal with...as they dont react well to challenge from anyone in my experience
So I guess all the "ok ones" of us can do
is call it out as "not cool" and
listen to women how else we can help...since we dont walk in your shoes...
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"I didn’t mention damilola or anyone else because this is a thread about women feeling safe…and you’re trying to make it about men, and trying to belittle women’s opinions about their own fears of safety. It isn’t not a race to the bottom. We feel how we feel. We are not wrong even if you say we are. Shame on you. " Good grief. Why so angry? | |||
"I don’t think this narrative going around where women absolve themselves of any action to protect themselves helps either. Stuff like “tell people where your going” or “take a well lit route home” are met with statements like “why should we have to alter what we do because men out there are murderers” or “this is victim shaming”. We all take steps to protect ourselves, and we will all continue to until the world becomes a utopia. We lock our doors, we protect our valuables, even guys avoid unsafe routes. It’s not victim shaming to suggest taking a safer route. I’ve seen multiple trending posts like this in the past week. I don’t think it helps anyone. We are all fully aware we should be able to walk home at night safely. And I shouldn’t have to lock my front door or car. And I shouldn’t have to avoid some of the rougher places near where I live. But this is the reality of the world we live in and if you choose to ignore that you need to realise you might be at a greater risk of certain things I agree with what you've said here. It feels like people are saying well sod it, I'll go out and deliberately ignore any safer aspects and it's not my fault. Your later comments about being wary of calling out issues with a man when there's a group of his friends who could kick your head in- and they should be the ones calling him out as a collective. - I very much agree. I think it shows you're not the uncaring dick that some people seem to be slating you as! I think Polly's post makes a lot of sense and has changed my perspective on the type of posts you've mentioned above. They maybe aren't suggesting don't bother trying to be safe, they really are just saying they shouldn't have to. Well I appreciate that I think when people see my point of view, they get some heated and picture sone guy saying “well what was she wearing?” and go off on me. When in reality what they should see is a guy with 2 sisters that regularly tells them “you never need to walk home, I’m always a call away.” Or a guy who was lucky enough to have a mum and dad that always said “no matter where you are, what state yoir in, what you’ve done, just call us any time day or night amd we will come pick you up” Or a friend that will take the time to walk home with my female friends because I know they will be safer walking home with me than alone. As I said above, there’s a big difference between “because you didn’t take these steps to be safer, it’s your fault”. And “These things could make you safer.” And people seem to jump on this idea that there’s no safe option? I don’t get that. I understand no one is 100% all the time. You could get hit my lightning. But I think we can all agree that on a scale some things are arguably more safer than others. Like the example above. Your leaving the pub to walk home? Come find me and I’ll walk with you. I can guarantee that’s safer than walking alone. I can’t guarantee it’s 100% safe. But it’s a safer option Yep.
There will still be some people who would say that your offer to walk them home from the pub means you are inferring that women are weak and feeble and need men...!
I kind of agree but disagree with this sentiment. My attacker was someone I knew for 20 years. I understand there are things everyone can do to be safer. I wouldn't cross the road without looking. But even with everything put in place as best to your own abilities, there are people who will do the unthinkable. I don't mind having conversations about increasing safety or sharing tips on how to stay safer. But there also needs to be an equal conversation directed on how men can help make women feel safer. It's about balance between both genders to try and help solve the issue.
So, how do men make women feel safer? I cannot imagine what it feels like to suffer what you did, but in reality, what could other men (and only other men, not all people, parents, teachers etc) do that would make that situation less likely?
Mr
It's difficult to explain, but what I was confronted with was a man who was trying to take all my strength and dignity away from me. He used his attack to put me in my place. How dare I as a woman start to stand up against him. Oh but we're married it doesn't count. I don't need to ask to do something new. Sexual violence is often used to put women back in their box. For me it was the final straw of years of abuse.
How to make women feel safer, I think it would help if were stooped being asked what we were wearing etc. Because you know what it makes us feel you are getting ready to blame us, when we already are retracing every minute detail of what happened before the attack. And we're already blaming ourselves because we could have done something different. Yeah because with any tragic event something could have been done differently doesn't mean the outcome would be different.
Why don't men in general not all, just say what the hell, how do you feel, is there something I can do? That makes us feel safer not asking us what we are wearing or where were you.
This is rather jumbled as it's still hard to thing about. But what makes me feel safer since. Is knowing I male friends who I've spoken to about it. Who have supported me and said I didn't do anything wrong, he was in the wrong, without me having to justify my own behaviour" | |||
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"I didn’t mention damilola or anyone else because this is a thread about women feeling safe…and you’re trying to make it about men, and trying to belittle women’s opinions about their own fears of safety. It isn’t not a race to the bottom. We feel how we feel. We are not wrong even if you say we are. Shame on you. " Round of applause | |||
"This is such a selective narrative you have chosen OP. Males account for the VAST majority of violent crime victims. More likely to be murder victims, more likely to go to prison amd the list goes on. If you want to look at violent crime then look at violent crime. Don't just pick out a narrative in a vaccum and draw the "woman are oppressed" card out. Statistically woman are far safer walking the streets than men are and its not even close. Sexual assault is one of the only crimes that this is reversed for." Yes it's selective. It's a selective thread about male violence against women prompted by the sentencing of Sarah Everard's rapist and murderer. No-one has said that violence against men doesn't happen or is not important. But it is not the subject of the thread. | |||
"I didn’t mention damilola or anyone else because this is a thread about women feeling safe…and you’re trying to make it about men, and trying to belittle women’s opinions about their own fears of safety. It isn’t not a race to the bottom. We feel how we feel. We are not wrong even if you say we are. Shame on you. Good grief. Why so angry? " Why not be? I mean, for the record, I’m not, but if I was…and what? I have whatever emotion I have. What’s your point? | |||
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"I didn’t mention damilola or anyone else because this is a thread about women feeling safe…and you’re trying to make it about men, and trying to belittle women’s opinions about their own fears of safety. It isn’t not a race to the bottom. We feel how we feel. We are not wrong even if you say we are. Shame on you. Good grief. Why so angry? Why not be? I mean, for the record, I’m not, but if I was…and what? I have whatever emotion I have. What’s your point?" I'm angry too. And I get even angrier with the "not all men" schtick every single time this issue comes up. It's worth getting angry about. | |||
" Right right so not as much addressing it directly everyone you see it (because it might be unsafe to do so) but more working towards a society where everyone keeps everyone in check, so I don’t have to call the creepy guy at the pub out because his friends will Well, partly due to the safety issue, but more because very, very few men are likely to take much long-term notice of a stranger telling them their behaviour isn't acceptable. It might stop them for five minutes, or a night, whereas if friends and family were to say or act in a way that shows it isn't acceptable then it is more likely to become an ingrained behaviour. Ok that makes sense, just always feels so shit seeing it and having to leave it. When I moved I met a guy at work and he invited me out for a few drinks with his mates. They all turned out to be total creeps. Like seriously, full on creeps. Following women around, touching, being disrespectful. They were the rough types too and I knew being the new guy I had no pull. So I just left after a short while. I felt like such a loser, but at the same time, I wasn’t sure if I was ready to get my head kicked in by a group of lads. But damnn I felt like shit about it " I've been in that situation many years ago when I was in the military and after seeing 2 young ladies in clearly extreme discomfort and with fear in there eyes I spoke up against the group of guys and did managed to stop it at least that incident. It was touch and go though it came pretty close to me get the kicking off my life and only my quick wits, charm and offer to buy them drinks saved me tbh. KJ | |||
