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Transgender Guidance in Sport
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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago
Chelmsford |
The Sports Council Equality Group has announced that, "for many sports, the inclusion of transgender people, fairness and safety cannot coexist in a single competitive model"
They then leave the solutions to individual governing bodies...
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"The Sports Council Equality Group has announced that, "for many sports, the inclusion of transgender people, fairness and safety cannot coexist in a single competitive model"
They then leave the solutions to individual governing bodies...
"
Nice to see they are quietly stepping back and absolving themselves with the shit show ahead of it.
If you follow the science amd say they can’t compete together your a transphobe
If you go the other direction you’ll upset a bunch of athletes
You can’t win either way, so just back out and let the different organisations navigate this shitshow |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Sports Council Equality Group has announced that, "for many sports, the inclusion of transgender people, fairness and safety cannot coexist in a single competitive model"
They then leave the solutions to individual governing bodies...
Nice to see they are quietly stepping back and absolving themselves with the shit show ahead of it.
If you follow the science amd say they can’t compete together your a transphobe
If you go the other direction you’ll upset a bunch of athletes
You can’t win either way, so just back out and let the different organisations navigate this shitshow "
What science are you following? Testosterone levels? Caster Semenya, a female-born athlete, was banned for her testosterone levels being "too high" so that obviously doesn't work. It disproportionately affects black female athletes because of Euro-centric ideas of femininity too.
It's not like professional trans athletes can just turn up and say they're whatever gender they like you know? There has to be a history of them living their life as the opposite sex to that which they were assigned at birth, having hormone therapy and, if they so choose, gender reassignment surgery.
I'd love to know what about it is a "shitshow" too because a lot of sports and fellow professionals have accepted and embraced their trans peers. So who is it a shitshow for? Angry middle-aged white men getting blue in the face about it behind their computer screens? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The guidance seems pretty sensible to me.
Lots of sports have already moved towards an open competition or at least permitting women to choose to compete with men.
The other aspects are always going to be a balance between fairness and inclusion and it makes sense for different sports to decide on which priorities make sense for their sport. |
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Oh lord this is gonna be a messy thread! Always is when it comes to trans people competing.
I think it's a bit shit for the to say sort it out yourselves. There needs to be clear, concise guidance taking in advice from experts and key stakeholders. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh lord this is gonna be a messy thread! Always is when it comes to trans people competing.
I think it's a bit shit for the to say sort it out yourselves. There needs to be clear, concise guidance taking in advice from experts and key stakeholders. "
How can you do that across different sports?!
And they haven't said 'sort it out yourselves'. But you'd know that if you'd read it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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To be clear, trans athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. That's 4 Olympic games. This was the first year that any have qualified. And famously Laural Hubbard didn't even place...so I'm not sure why people still think trans people are dominating sports??? Lol |
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"The Sports Council Equality Group has announced that, "for many sports, the inclusion of transgender people, fairness and safety cannot coexist in a single competitive model"
They then leave the solutions to individual governing bodies...
"
I saw the same article. Its a true statement isn't it? If they need to provide access to some sports then compromise will be needed.... And it surely can't be a compromise on player safety. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Sports Council Equality Group has announced that, "for many sports, the inclusion of transgender people, fairness and safety cannot coexist in a single competitive model"
They then leave the solutions to individual governing bodies...
Nice to see they are quietly stepping back and absolving themselves with the shit show ahead of it.
If you follow the science amd say they can’t compete together your a transphobe
If you go the other direction you’ll upset a bunch of athletes
You can’t win either way, so just back out and let the different organisations navigate this shitshow "
Agreed. But i've looked into it and i can see the obvious problem. i have no problem with it. But the big problem from what i've seen is, it's mainly naturally born women who have a problem with it.
The men dont.
reason being...
It's unfair for a man turned woman with that naturally high genetic strength to compete against women and dominate their sports.
Whereas women turned men dont have that natural advantage and arent even considered competition.
There's a reason why men and women sports have always competed separately. The genetic advantage unfair.
Anyone who says otherwise is delusional.
it's like pitting a heavyweight vs featherweight.
One is going to get dominated.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol. "
Presumably he'd still compete in his weight category? |
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"The Sports Council Equality Group has announced that, "for many sports, the inclusion of transgender people, fairness and safety cannot coexist in a single competitive model"
They then leave the solutions to individual governing bodies...
"
What’s your solution to this problem? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
Presumably he'd still compete in his weight category?"
Or... presumably she'd still compete in her weight category?   |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy"
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?! |
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"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol. "
What would a Tyson fury that’s undergone female hormone therapy be like. Would she still want to fight? Presumably the lower testosterone level would make her less aggressive |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy"
it would be but then it would be segregating the trans from natural borns. which is the complete opposite of what they want.
for example. imo i think it's shitty that the paralympics is not included with the olympics, way to go to make them feel included and not segregated. 
it's a hard one to crack. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
What would a Tyson fury that’s undergone female hormone therapy be like. Would she still want to fight? Presumably the lower testosterone level would make her less aggressive "
that made me laugh on a serious note though. i cant tell if you are being genuine or the point of this discussion went way over your head.
i'll engage.
this whole discussion is under the context that the trans person remains in competitive sport and competes in the opposite gender category.
so yes, tyson fury or tiana/tilly fury would slaughter her competition and be world female boxing heavy weight champ with barely any effort. |
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By *rhugesMan
over a year ago
Cardiff |
"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?!"
If there are not enough you don't run it as in anything |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?!
If there are not enough you don't run it as in anything"
Right. So if there's only a handful, fuck 'em?
I can see that working really well... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There is a level playing field. The concept of trans athletes having a genetic advantage is a lie, and goes against the lived experience of trans athletes |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Literally look at Alana Mclaughlin. Her drop in muscle mass due to hormones speaks for itself "
yeah, and dominating in the womens mma too
shocker!
/sarcasm |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?!
If there are not enough you don't run it as in anything
Right. So if there's only a handful, fuck 'em?
I can see that working really well..."
Simply pushing us out of being able to participate in society is the end goal. "don't pee here" "don't do this sport/career" it's sad |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol. "
Wouldt look out off place to be honest with you not saying they should
But when you have the likes off gabi and cyborg penne and a number off other female fighters
All failing test and stuff for steroids then wouldn’t look out off place
Sports is a wash with steroids plane and simple there is no “ even “ playing feild it’s just who’s on the best stuff |
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I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female |
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By *tooveMan
over a year ago
belfast |
"The Sports Council Equality Group has announced that, "for many sports, the inclusion of transgender people, fairness and safety cannot coexist in a single competitive model"
They then leave the solutions to individual governing bodies...
Nice to see they are quietly stepping back and absolving themselves with the shit show ahead of it.
If you follow the science amd say they can’t compete together your a transphobe
If you go the other direction you’ll upset a bunch of athletes
You can’t win either way, so just back out and let the different organisations navigate this shitshow
What science are you following? Testosterone levels? Caster Semenya, a female-born athlete, was banned for her testosterone levels being "too high" so that obviously doesn't work. It disproportionately affects black female athletes because of Euro-centric ideas of femininity too.
It's not like professional trans athletes can just turn up and say they're whatever gender they like you know? There has to be a history of them living their life as the opposite sex to that which they were assigned at birth, having hormone therapy and, if they so choose, gender reassignment surgery.
I'd love to know what about it is a "shitshow" too because a lot of sports and fellow professionals have accepted and embraced their trans peers. So who is it a shitshow for? Angry middle-aged white men getting blue in the face about it behind their computer screens?"
Hahaha you said middle aged white men. What an argument. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female "
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body |
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By *tooveMan
over a year ago
belfast |
"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
What would a Tyson fury that’s undergone female hormone therapy be like. Would she still want to fight? Presumably the lower testosterone level would make her less aggressive "
Why would she be less aggressive? |
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body "
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning "
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has |
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has "
I didn’t say she hadn’t |
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"Caster Semenya, a female-born athlete, was banned for her testosterone levels being "too high". "
Pretty sure she would have been intersex.
Nature is a wonderful and varied thing, and a surprisingly high number of babies are allocated a sex at birth where it is not clear from their physiology.
And quite frankly who’s business is it but your own what you have in you pants if it doesn’t conform to either of the “norms”? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has
I didn’t say she hadn’t "
So then by your definition she should be outright banned for life
And I am not supporting them competing in sports
I am just trying to put a point a cross that everyone seems to be hung up on they had this because they were this that and the next thing at one point
But what about female born athletes that have cheated in the past and permanently altered them selfs the exact same as a trans athlete |
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I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has
I didn’t say she hadn’t
So then by your definition she should be outright banned for life
And I am not supporting them competing in sports
I am just trying to put a point a cross that everyone seems to be hung up on they had this because they were this that and the next thing at one point
But what about female born athletes that have cheated in the past and permanently altered them selfs the exact same as a trans athlete "
I don’t believe using PEDs as a female in your adult life can alter your body to a level that is seen in a trans woman that lived here life for 20-30 years as a man
I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that. PEDs can cause changes in women, but not to that level from the things I’ve seen |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has
I didn’t say she hadn’t
So then by your definition she should be outright banned for life
And I am not supporting them competing in sports
I am just trying to put a point a cross that everyone seems to be hung up on they had this because they were this that and the next thing at one point
But what about female born athletes that have cheated in the past and permanently altered them selfs the exact same as a trans athlete
I don’t believe using PEDs as a female in your adult life can alter your body to a level that is seen in a trans woman that lived here life for 20-30 years as a man
I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that. PEDs can cause changes in women, but not to that level from the things I’ve seen "
I have and I have it from insiders form leading sports testing places know a couple off people that work for testing companies and labs and stuff
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has
I didn’t say she hadn’t
So then by your definition she should be outright banned for life
And I am not supporting them competing in sports
I am just trying to put a point a cross that everyone seems to be hung up on they had this because they were this that and the next thing at one point
But what about female born athletes that have cheated in the past and permanently altered them selfs the exact same as a trans athlete
I don’t believe using PEDs as a female in your adult life can alter your body to a level that is seen in a trans woman that lived here life for 20-30 years as a man
I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that. PEDs can cause changes in women, but not to that level from the things I’ve seen
I have and I have it from insiders form leading sports testing places know a couple off people that work for testing companies and labs and stuff
"
I’d like to see evidence rather than place my opinion on you having heard it from someone that does testing |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has
I didn’t say she hadn’t
So then by your definition she should be outright banned for life
And I am not supporting them competing in sports
I am just trying to put a point a cross that everyone seems to be hung up on they had this because they were this that and the next thing at one point
But what about female born athletes that have cheated in the past and permanently altered them selfs the exact same as a trans athlete
I don’t believe using PEDs as a female in your adult life can alter your body to a level that is seen in a trans woman that lived here life for 20-30 years as a man
I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that. PEDs can cause changes in women, but not to that level from the things I’ve seen
I have and I have it from insiders form leading sports testing places know a couple off people that work for testing companies and labs and stuff
I’d like to see evidence rather than place my opinion on you having heard it from someone that does testing "
Unfortunately I can’t say who or whare as I keep things separate but I am a big fish in the mma world |
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has
I didn’t say she hadn’t
So then by your definition she should be outright banned for life
And I am not supporting them competing in sports
I am just trying to put a point a cross that everyone seems to be hung up on they had this because they were this that and the next thing at one point
But what about female born athletes that have cheated in the past and permanently altered them selfs the exact same as a trans athlete
I don’t believe using PEDs as a female in your adult life can alter your body to a level that is seen in a trans woman that lived here life for 20-30 years as a man
I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that. PEDs can cause changes in women, but not to that level from the things I’ve seen
I have and I have it from insiders form leading sports testing places know a couple off people that work for testing companies and labs and stuff
I’d like to see evidence rather than place my opinion on you having heard it from someone that does testing
Unfortunately I can’t say who or whare as I keep things separate but I am a big fish in the mma world "
Studies are public domain so I don’t care who said it. I need to see well done studies |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’ve definitely seen evidence that some advantages are kept after transitioning
Increased lung capacity
More athletic bone structure
Denser bones
More powerful muscle fibres
How do trans people justify these advantages being carried over against a naturally born female
So then your definition any female that failed a for test should be out right banned for life as I have seen this exact stament being made in cyborg case that she’s permanently altered her body
I do kinda agree. Although there’s a difference between using drugs in your adulthood
Vs literally developing as a man for 2-3 decades than transitioning
Nope I have it from a leading sports tester who works for a wada that she has
I didn’t say she hadn’t
So then by your definition she should be outright banned for life
And I am not supporting them competing in sports
I am just trying to put a point a cross that everyone seems to be hung up on they had this because they were this that and the next thing at one point
But what about female born athletes that have cheated in the past and permanently altered them selfs the exact same as a trans athlete
I don’t believe using PEDs as a female in your adult life can alter your body to a level that is seen in a trans woman that lived here life for 20-30 years as a man
I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that. PEDs can cause changes in women, but not to that level from the things I’ve seen
I have and I have it from insiders form leading sports testing places know a couple off people that work for testing companies and labs and stuff
I’d like to see evidence rather than place my opinion on you having heard it from someone that does testing
Unfortunately I can’t say who or whare as I keep things separate but I am a big fish in the mma world
Studies are public domain so I don’t care who said it. I need to see well done studies "
Not exactly if it’s done by a private company ie the ufc them selfs |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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There have been two academic reviews of the impact of testosterone on trans women's muscle mass and strength. Both in the last 2 years. Both concluded that muscle mass loss is minimal and that there is a strength advantage still. (Fond of Beetles on Twitter for the citations and more info).
I haven't read the report mentioned yet but it's never going to be an easy solution. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually. |
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By *hagTonightMan
over a year ago
From the land of haribos. |
"The Sports Council Equality Group has announced that, "for many sports, the inclusion of transgender people, fairness and safety cannot coexist in a single competitive model"
They then leave the solutions to individual governing bodies...
Nice to see they are quietly stepping back and absolving themselves with the shit show ahead of it.
If you follow the science amd say they can’t compete together your a transphobe
If you go the other direction you’ll upset a bunch of athletes
You can’t win either way, so just back out and let the different organisations navigate this shitshow "
Yes, it is a tricky one for the sports as it have its advantages, espesially when competing against women as they have lower test levels, one solution for example, in boxing and bodybuilding they have different weight categories and with the olympics there are the paralympics, it works there. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually."
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair?? |
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"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually.
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair??"
Limited scholarships so they are handed out based on performance
She misses out on one due to someone with an unfair advantage |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?!"
Exactly .. makes it seem like your neighbours, his wife, their dogs and kids are transsexuals 
It isn’t like that so as you point out, there’s not that many competitors xx |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually.
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair??
Limited scholarships so they are handed out based on performance
She misses out on one due to someone with an unfair advantage "
But what’s the unfair advantage of a woman who is taller or bigger?
It’s more a fact of being sore because a trans girl took the spot. That hurts people more than the fact that another girl who had an advantage physically by strength or height or whatever would have taken the spot away. Because women are all different, like trans women are all different.
Especially the earlier they start, if you take a boy and give the boy blocker from 13-14 and pump him with estrogen, that is likely gonna be as similar as possible to a cisgender woman.
Btw a lot of women have better/stronger physical advantages etc compared to me for example, and y’all know where I come from |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually.
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair??
Limited scholarships so they are handed out based on performance
She misses out on one due to someone with an unfair advantage "
Putting aside the bullshit, this is simple old "well then trans people just shouldn't be allowed to do stuff". Just because that feels easier. Tell us where we can piss, how we can lead our lives, hope that feels good |
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"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
What would a Tyson fury that’s undergone female hormone therapy be like. Would she still want to fight? Presumably the lower testosterone level would make her less aggressive
Why would she be less aggressive? "
Because testosterone makes you aggressive |
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"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually.
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair??
Limited scholarships so they are handed out based on performance
She misses out on one due to someone with an unfair advantage
Putting aside the bullshit, this is simple old "well then trans people just shouldn't be allowed to do stuff". Just because that feels easier. Tell us where we can piss, how we can lead our lives, hope that feels good "
You haven’t really addressed any of my points?
Piss where you want, but don’t use an unfair advantage to take a scholarship off someone |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually.
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair??
Limited scholarships so they are handed out based on performance
She misses out on one due to someone with an unfair advantage
Putting aside the bullshit, this is simple old "well then trans people just shouldn't be allowed to do stuff". Just because that feels easier. Tell us where we can piss, how we can lead our lives, hope that feels good
You haven’t really addressed any of my points?
Piss where you want, but don’t use an unfair advantage to take a scholarship off someone "
I can't address points that aren't true??
There is no unfair advantage, that's the point. It's bullshit, it's not true. But yall won't accept that, because you've already decided that trans girls are men, and men are strong.
Yall can talk about us as if we're a problem to be solved all you want. But we are people, we pose no more threat to anyone than any other group, but every day we are debated about as if we are some wild creature threatening to eat the local orphans in the night. |
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"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually.
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair??
Limited scholarships so they are handed out based on performance
She misses out on one due to someone with an unfair advantage
Putting aside the bullshit, this is simple old "well then trans people just shouldn't be allowed to do stuff". Just because that feels easier. Tell us where we can piss, how we can lead our lives, hope that feels good
You haven’t really addressed any of my points?
Piss where you want, but don’t use an unfair advantage to take a scholarship off someone
I can't address points that aren't true??
There is no unfair advantage, that's the point. It's bullshit, it's not true. But yall won't accept that, because you've already decided that trans girls are men, and men are strong.
Yall can talk about us as if we're a problem to be solved all you want. But we are people, we pose no more threat to anyone than any other group, but every day we are debated about as if we are some wild creature threatening to eat the local orphans in the night."
Wikipedia is showing a few studies on the subject with the conclusion that there still might be an advantage even after transitioning
Until we can definitively say there is no advantage, they shouldn’t be allowed to take scholarships away from people. |
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By *rhugesMan
over a year ago
Cardiff |
"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?!
If there are not enough you don't run it as in anything
Right. So if there's only a handful, fuck 'em?
I can see that working really well..."
Well I'm afraid that's life. In schools if they they don't Get enough takers for an A level they don't run it .
|
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By *rhugesMan
over a year ago
Cardiff |
"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually.
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair??
Limited scholarships so they are handed out based on performance
She misses out on one due to someone with an unfair advantage
Putting aside the bullshit, this is simple old "well then trans people just shouldn't be allowed to do stuff". Just because that feels easier. Tell us where we can piss, how we can lead our lives, hope that feels good
You haven’t really addressed any of my points?
Piss where you want, but don’t use an unfair advantage to take a scholarship off someone
I can't address points that aren't true??
There is no unfair advantage, that's the point. It's bullshit, it's not true. But yall won't accept that, because you've already decided that trans girls are men, and men are strong.
Yall can talk about us as if we're a problem to be solved all you want. But we are people, we pose no more threat to anyone than any other group, but every day we are debated about as if we are some wild creature threatening to eat the local orphans in the night.
Wikipedia is showing a few studies on the subject with the conclusion that there still might be an advantage even after transitioning
Until we can definitively say there is no advantage, they shouldn’t be allowed to take scholarships away from people. "
100% agree. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
What would a Tyson fury that’s undergone female hormone therapy be like. Would she still want to fight? Presumably the lower testosterone level would make her less aggressive
Why would she be less aggressive?
Because testosterone makes you aggressive "
I think I’ve never been as temperamental since being on estrogen
But then again being temperamental and snapping verbally because people press ur buttons, isnt the same as being physically aggressive in the same term
From what I can remember tho when my body was on testosterone only prior to HRT, I was just a bit depressed and anxious all the time 
My point being, don’t assume when it comes to hormones |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"It hasn't hit the UK so much yet, I don't think, but it probably will - sport's scholarships from high-school to University in the US are worth a huge amount of money. This article is worth a read.
https://nypost.com/2019/10/13/justice-for-trans-athletes-is-unfair-to-girls-like-my-daughter/
Of course, it's about America, but most of their stuff comes here eventually.
In what way is one girl getting a scholarship over another unfair??
Limited scholarships so they are handed out based on performance
She misses out on one due to someone with an unfair advantage
Putting aside the bullshit, this is simple old "well then trans people just shouldn't be allowed to do stuff". Just because that feels easier. Tell us where we can piss, how we can lead our lives, hope that feels good
You haven’t really addressed any of my points?
Piss where you want, but don’t use an unfair advantage to take a scholarship off someone
I can't address points that aren't true??
There is no unfair advantage, that's the point. It's bullshit, it's not true. But yall won't accept that, because you've already decided that trans girls are men, and men are strong.
Yall can talk about us as if we're a problem to be solved all you want. But we are people, we pose no more threat to anyone than any other group, but every day we are debated about as if we are some wild creature threatening to eat the local orphans in the night."
Also I try not to get too emotionally involved as there’s no point really .
I’m not gonna pick a battle anymore when it has nothing to do with me , let the athletes who have to deal with this shit, handle it…it’s just easier really. I always fucking hated sports anyway and was the worst in PE
So long as I can do my yoga and yoga is inclusive and not competitive, I’m a happy girl
As long as I get addressed correctly, get respected, can go in the correct toilet etc etc I’m happy. So yeah let the athletes handle themselves x |
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The problem is competing at the highest level in sport. Would this inclusiveness mess things up or not? Would this inclusiveness make things less fair or not?
I will offer some examples for the sake of my argument.
The inclusion of women at the highest level in some sports. Formula 1 or other car racing competitions. Darts. Horseracing. It is happening already and it does not seem to be any issue. Some sports can be unisex and all inclusive and the participation of transgender people would not be an issue whatsoever.
But in other sports at the highest levels we can not have unisex compeitions.
Track and field sports, swimimg, cycling, weight lifting, boxing, tennis etc.
Imagine if we made the competition in the above sports unisex. The men would have the advatage. At the highest level in many sports is about winning. Would for example the top women in track and field would agree to compete against the top men? I do not think so. It would mess the competition and their sport. And it is about the audiences too. Would be audiences willing to watch such unisex competitions? I do not think so. The interest would be a lot less.
The issue is not so much the inclusiveness but with the competition at the top level.
One way would be the introduction of handicaps but would this be fair? I do not think so. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?!
If there are not enough you don't run it as in anything
Right. So if there's only a handful, fuck 'em?
I can see that working really well...
Well I'm afraid that's life. In schools if they they don't Get enough takers for an A level they don't run it .
"
And those students would be directed toward similar available subjects instead.
For a governing body charged with increasing participation in sport a 'use it or lose it' attitude isn't a sensible option.
I think the only realistic options will be to open up men's competitions to all (which many sports are doing anyway), and for physical sports to provide competitions with size/weight categories similar to junior rugby in New Zealand.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?!
If there are not enough you don't run it as in anything
Right. So if there's only a handful, fuck 'em?
I can see that working really well...
Well I'm afraid that's life. In schools if they they don't Get enough takers for an A level they don't run it .
And those students would be directed toward similar available subjects instead.
For a governing body charged with increasing participation in sport a 'use it or lose it' attitude isn't a sensible option.
I think the only realistic options will be to open up men's competitions to all (which many sports are doing anyway), and for physical sports to provide competitions with size/weight categories similar to junior rugby in New Zealand.
"
Yeah particularly at the early stage, now I do say nothing could between me and my transition. Not a family member, a hobby, a friend or heck, the possibility of dying on the operating table when getting fully reassigned in the near future. It’s not gonna stop me for fully realigning myself.
Having said that, it’d be said if people have to give up COMPLETELY their potential dreams because they have to choose between that or their transition so they can live their true selves. Hmmm |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Easy solution make two new categories. Women trans'ed to men and men trans'ed to women easy
And how many competitors are you expecting in those categories? Enough to run a rugby competition?!
If there are not enough you don't run it as in anything
Right. So if there's only a handful, fuck 'em?
I can see that working really well...
Well I'm afraid that's life. In schools if they they don't Get enough takers for an A level they don't run it .
And those students would be directed toward similar available subjects instead.
For a governing body charged with increasing participation in sport a 'use it or lose it' attitude isn't a sensible option.
I think the only realistic options will be to open up men's competitions to all (which many sports are doing anyway), and for physical sports to provide competitions with size/weight categories similar to junior rugby in New Zealand.
Yeah particularly at the early stage, now I do say nothing could between me and my transition. Not a family member, a hobby, a friend or heck, the possibility of dying on the operating table when getting fully reassigned in the near future. It’s not gonna stop me for fully realigning myself.
Having said that, it’d be said if people have to give up COMPLETELY their potential dreams because they have to choose between that or their transition so they can live their true selves. Hmmm"
*get in between me and my transition
*would be sad (not said) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Having said that, it’d be said if people have to give up COMPLETELY their potential dreams because they have to choose between that or their transition so they can live their true selves. Hmmm"
An interesting aspect with this is that for a man that's transitioned to a woman in many cases you'd expect the concern to be that they have some existing advantages and so you get cases like the woman in Australia (handball & Aussie rules player). For which she wants to continue competing but you can understand why some women would have concerns.
But if you view it as a woman that transitions to a man would they effectively be giving up on their sporting dreams in that they'd now have to compete with men and in most cases that would be harder for them to do so?
Which is why the issue isn't just about elite level sport, it needs opportunities for all (which I think was a slogan back in the 80s but I bet they didn't see this coming ) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I can only speak about my transition, I’ve been more of a creative and artsy person all my life, so the whole if u are a man compete with men and vice versa doesnt apply to me, ever.
Having said that, those things I liked before transitioning, I still like doing now. (Like playing the piano)
My point being, these people just would like to live their lives as.
They don’t think like, a trans man thinks he will find it too difficult to compete with men . He just wants to participate in the category he obviously should be (if he was born biologically that way), and yes maybe he will find it impossible to ever win. But it’s besides the point.
I think of me as a woman, and then trans is just an adjective to point out i wasn’t born biologically as one.
I go into ladies toilets and I don’t think I should be challenged (not that I do btw!!!) to go into the mens because I was born as a male. Also I’d look well out of place there. But it’s just natural to wanting to be in the category of the gender/sex u are.
Having said that I see why it’s a totally controversial subject as I did see some vids of MMAs fighters who were soldiers and then transitioned and obviously they were still beasts.
Genetically /physically I was always very much like a girl to begin with or framed like one so .. I’m only comparing myself saying. I wouldn’t be able to beat an avarage girl in sport
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I can only speak about my transition, I’ve been more of a creative and artsy person all my life, so the whole if u are a man compete with men and vice versa doesnt apply to me, ever.
Having said that, those things I liked before transitioning, I still like doing now. (Like playing the piano)
My point being, these people just would like to live their lives as.
They don’t think like, a trans man thinks he will find it too difficult to compete with men . He just wants to participate in the category he obviously should be (if he was born biologically that way), and yes maybe he will find it impossible to ever win. But it’s besides the point.
I think of me as a woman, and then trans is just an adjective to point out i wasn’t born biologically as one.
I go into ladies toilets and I don’t think I should be challenged (not that I do btw!!!) to go into the mens because I was born as a male. Also I’d look well out of place there. But it’s just natural to wanting to be in the category of the gender/sex u are.
Having said that I see why it’s a totally controversial subject as I did see some vids of MMAs fighters who were soldiers and then transitioned and obviously they were still beasts.
Genetically /physically I was always very much like a girl to begin with or framed like one so .. I’m only comparing myself saying. I wouldn’t be able to beat an avarage girl in sport
"
I understand what you're saying and yes need to remember the person will still be the same with the same drives & motivations etc.
I was thinking more of an extreme example such as a woman that had ambitions to be the leading athlete in her sport but knowing if she transitioned as a man that would likely mean she'd need to give up on that dream, or at least it would likely be harder if she was going to have to compete with men to achieve it.
So far the debates been about the fairness of a somebody that had grown up as a male then competing with women but thought it was interesting to see it from the other way too.
Obviously for trans men that are happy just taking part then hopefully they'll be living their best life, but I guess it depends on what it is that drives you to compete. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yeah that’s very true. Obviously they can’t compete with women because they look like men and have high testosterone levels with the T shots and stronger bodies.
But I’d say most would be willing to just be able to compete there.
Like if I think of saying a beauty competition, I’d obviously would want to compete in the miss world for example. Even if I come last because my brain tells me I’m a woman.
So I think this thought goes in their head.
I know personally a couple of women who would transition, but don’t have the courage to, because they feel they’d loose their current life and family if they did the big step. So they are happy with expressing themselves as very butch women.
So maybe that’s what happens majority of the time, If the love for sport is strong, they might not ever transition into male till they retire? As it might not be an option |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"So maybe that’s what happens majority of the time, If the love for sport is strong, they might not ever transition into male till they retire? As it might not be an option "
Very likely. |
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"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
Presumably he'd still compete in his weight category?"
Yes, but he would still be 6 foot 9, built like a brick shithouse, with skeleton and musculature developed when he was a man. Not sure I can think of any women offhand who could safely go into the ring against him. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
Presumably he'd still compete in his weight category?
Yes, but he would still be 6 foot 9, built like a brick shithouse, with skeleton and musculature developed when he was a man. Not sure I can think of any women offhand who could safely go into the ring against him. "
Kind of my point. Not likely to be taking on Nicola Adams is he?! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
"
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate. |
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"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
Presumably he'd still compete in his weight category?
Yes, but he would still be 6 foot 9, built like a brick shithouse, with skeleton and musculature developed when he was a man. Not sure I can think of any women offhand who could safely go into the ring against him.
Kind of my point. Not likely to be taking on Nicola Adams is he?!"
You think a 10 stone male boxer against a 10 stone female boxer would be a safe and fair closer test then? The strength and lower differences could be immense |
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"Only problem I see is with trans male to female athletes competing in combat sports where someone else's health are at stake."
A lot of sports are based on lower and strength. Throwing events etc. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate. "
Why create scenarios that don’t exist??? I don’t get it. U won’t have the all blacks all suddenly having gender dysphoria and wanting to change their lives to the point they turn women and still compete in sports.
One fucking athlete at the Olympics… like let’s be real here… |
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"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate.
Why create scenarios that don’t exist??? I don’t get it. U won’t have the all blacks all suddenly having gender dysphoria and wanting to change their lives to the point they turn women and still compete in sports.
One fucking athlete at the Olympics… like let’s be real here… "
Because rules apply across everything, so every viable scenario has to be considered to decide if the rule works universally or needs adjusting. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"just imagine tyson fury turned out to be trans then started competing in womens boxing....
is that fair?
Lol.
Presumably he'd still compete in his weight category?
Yes, but he would still be 6 foot 9, built like a brick shithouse, with skeleton and musculature developed when he was a man. Not sure I can think of any women offhand who could safely go into the ring against him.
Kind of my point. Not likely to be taking on Nicola Adams is he?!
You think a 10 stone male boxer against a 10 stone female boxer would be a safe and fair closer test then? The strength and lower differences could be immense "
No. But that's not what's being discussed. |
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"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate.
Why create scenarios that don’t exist??? I don’t get it. U won’t have the all blacks all suddenly having gender dysphoria and wanting to change their lives to the point they turn women and still compete in sports.
One fucking athlete at the Olympics… like let’s be real here… "
I am aware of at least two. The weighlifter and a footballer. Even if the number now is tiny, a likely scenario is it can grow. Imagine 10 top level athletes in 10 different individual spotts. It is a likely scenario, not science fiction.
And if it is only for competing and not winning, how about include a gew hundreds of trans athletes on all sports just for inclusiveness and participation, exactly like they do for countries like Tonga and St Barts who have no chance of progressing? It would be still be unfair for these athletes because even progressing and participating to the next round in some sports could be their ultimate goal?
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate.
Why create scenarios that don’t exist??? I don’t get it. U won’t have the all blacks all suddenly having gender dysphoria and wanting to change their lives to the point they turn women and still compete in sports.
One fucking athlete at the Olympics… like let’s be real here…
Because rules apply across everything, so every viable scenario has to be considered to decide if the rule works universally or needs adjusting. "
What if all sports were open to all genders to compete in taking away 1 gender only competition, would that make the rules easier?
I acknowledge gender advantages and disadvantages, but the best people would be top of the leagues or sports regardless of gender. I think it would quickly lead to mixed sex teams as individual rankings became key to getting a place not gender. Individual sports would be shook up and I think it would encourage people to try new sports to see exactly how they compare to all.
Just a thought  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate.
Why create scenarios that don’t exist??? I don’t get it. U won’t have the all blacks all suddenly having gender dysphoria and wanting to change their lives to the point they turn women and still compete in sports.
One fucking athlete at the Olympics… like let’s be real here…
Because rules apply across everything, so every viable scenario has to be considered to decide if the rule works universally or needs adjusting.
What if all sports were open to all genders, would that make the rules easier?
I acknowledge gender advantages and disadvantages, but the best people would be top of the leagues or sports regardless of gender. I think it would quickly lead to mixed sex teams as individual rankings became key to getting a place not gender. Individual sports would be shook up and I think it would encourage people to try new sports to see exactly how they compare to all.
Just a thought "
Already the case in many sports.
It won't lead to mixed sex teams though. In the sports that do have mixed teams the women are often left to play second fiddle.
Open participation can't really work in team sports because mixed sides aren't likely to compete with all male teams.
It works fine in things like running events where you have categories. Everyone runs together but you have fastest male/female/male over 50 etc. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate.
Why create scenarios that don’t exist??? I don’t get it. U won’t have the all blacks all suddenly having gender dysphoria and wanting to change their lives to the point they turn women and still compete in sports.
One fucking athlete at the Olympics… like let’s be real here…
Because rules apply across everything, so every viable scenario has to be considered to decide if the rule works universally or needs adjusting.
What if all sports were open to all genders, would that make the rules easier?
I acknowledge gender advantages and disadvantages, but the best people would be top of the leagues or sports regardless of gender. I think it would quickly lead to mixed sex teams as individual rankings became key to getting a place not gender. Individual sports would be shook up and I think it would encourage people to try new sports to see exactly how they compare to all.
Just a thought
Already the case in many sports.
It won't lead to mixed sex teams though. In the sports that do have mixed teams the women are often left to play second fiddle.
Open participation can't really work in team sports because mixed sides aren't likely to compete with all male teams.
It works fine in things like running events where you have categories. Everyone runs together but you have fastest male/female/male over 50 etc."
I can't see the issue of a mixed team competing against an all male team, the best team is presented from the teams players being male or female.
Do you think it could be a possibility to be a female footballer playing for a premier league team? I think it could happen, especially as the female footballers are now getting more airtime and more of a following.
I also think female racing drivers will be racing for F1 teams very soon. |
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"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate.
Why create scenarios that don’t exist??? I don’t get it. U won’t have the all blacks all suddenly having gender dysphoria and wanting to change their lives to the point they turn women and still compete in sports.
One fucking athlete at the Olympics… like let’s be real here…
Because rules apply across everything, so every viable scenario has to be considered to decide if the rule works universally or needs adjusting.
What if all sports were open to all genders, would that make the rules easier?
I acknowledge gender advantages and disadvantages, but the best people would be top of the leagues or sports regardless of gender. I think it would quickly lead to mixed sex teams as individual rankings became key to getting a place not gender. Individual sports would be shook up and I think it would encourage people to try new sports to see exactly how they compare to all.
Just a thought
Already the case in many sports.
It won't lead to mixed sex teams though. In the sports that do have mixed teams the women are often left to play second fiddle.
Open participation can't really work in team sports because mixed sides aren't likely to compete with all male teams.
It works fine in things like running events where you have categories. Everyone runs together but you have fastest male/female/male over 50 etc.
I can't see the issue of a mixed team competing against an all male team, the best team is presented from the teams players being male or female.
Do you think it could be a possibility to be a female footballer playing for a premier league team? I think it could happen, especially as the female footballers are now getting more airtime and more of a following.
I also think female racing drivers will be racing for F1 teams very soon. "
Football? Not a chance. The best female football team in the world got absolutely spanked by a youth team. There’s just too much competition
But driving? F1? I could see that |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It's not an issue if they're of the same ability. The problem is that's very rarely the case.
Some women's sports have progressed rapidly in recent years and so yes it's possible that in the nearish future we may see some women competing with the best men in sports like cricket & football.
But both of those sports have invested heavily in getting girls to take up the sport and then supporting the best of them to have paid contracts.
Even with the higher profile of those sports we still haven't got to a stage where young girls are as keen to take part in sports as lads. It's going to take a long time to achieve which is why these sorts of debates are so tricky. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"I am not so sure…
There was separation of genders throughout the yeas in most sports for a reason. With some exceptions of course like in tennis where we have mixed doubles or triathlon in these Olympics that we saw mixed teams.
But how about contact sports like boxing or wrestling? If we want to be inclusive, shouldnt be inclusive for all sports?
A transgender who transitioned from man to woman feels full woman and thinks full woman but with regards to power is full woman? And vice versa.
Would a top 20 tennis man who transitions into woman be fair to compete against women tennis players.
Would a rugby team full of trans women compete in fair terms in a female championship.
I am asking from the perspective of power only. Whether it would be fair. I do not know.
it wouldnt be fair. come on. you do know. imagine the new zealand all blacks rugby team went trans and competed in female rugby. not hard to figure out who would dominate.
Why create scenarios that don’t exist??? I don’t get it. U won’t have the all blacks all suddenly having gender dysphoria and wanting to change their lives to the point they turn women and still compete in sports.
One fucking athlete at the Olympics… like let’s be real here…
Because rules apply across everything, so every viable scenario has to be considered to decide if the rule works universally or needs adjusting.
What if all sports were open to all genders, would that make the rules easier?
I acknowledge gender advantages and disadvantages, but the best people would be top of the leagues or sports regardless of gender. I think it would quickly lead to mixed sex teams as individual rankings became key to getting a place not gender. Individual sports would be shook up and I think it would encourage people to try new sports to see exactly how they compare to all.
Just a thought
Already the case in many sports.
It won't lead to mixed sex teams though. In the sports that do have mixed teams the women are often left to play second fiddle.
Open participation can't really work in team sports because mixed sides aren't likely to compete with all male teams.
It works fine in things like running events where you have categories. Everyone runs together but you have fastest male/female/male over 50 etc.
I can't see the issue of a mixed team competing against an all male team, the best team is presented from the teams players being male or female.
Do you think it could be a possibility to be a female footballer playing for a premier league team? I think it could happen, especially as the female footballers are now getting more airtime and more of a following.
I also think female racing drivers will be racing for F1 teams very soon.
Football? Not a chance. The best female football team in the world got absolutely spanked by a youth team. There’s just too much competition
But driving? F1? I could see that "
That was the whole team. If an individual female has potential and a club invests in them as they do in the youth teams and academies, I can see them rising slowly but surely along with it the bank balance of the club.
Merchandise is big earner and one that is not fully exploited for the female audience. I think it will happen |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"It's not an issue if they're of the same ability. The problem is that's very rarely the case.
Some women's sports have progressed rapidly in recent years and so yes it's possible that in the nearish future we may see some women competing with the best men in sports like cricket & football.
But both of those sports have invested heavily in getting girls to take up the sport and then supporting the best of them to have paid contracts.
Even with the higher profile of those sports we still haven't got to a stage where young girls are as keen to take part in sports as lads. It's going to take a long time to achieve which is why these sorts of debates are so tricky."
Agreed that we are not at that stage yet, but when females start to shine and get precious airtime and a fan following, the female £ will talk to the clubs. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Agreed that we are not at that stage yet, but when females start to shine and get precious airtime and a fan following, the female £ will talk to the clubs. "
I know a couple of women have been close to being taken on by county cricket teams and Sarah Taylor played grade cricket down under. Keepers & slow bowlers are probably the most likely to get a chance but I think we're still a few years away from a woman properly breaking through. |
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Might as well say that there is no safe and fair solution to ever allowing both tall people and short people to take part in sports.
You want a fair solution - take the gendering out of the equation. Have sports organise teams and matches along lines of size, weight, strength, ability - heavyweight league, featherweight league. Increase the telly profile of sports where weight, speed, strength do not necessarily confer an advantage.
It's all a very hard question, I don't think there is any simple answer that could be universally accepted. A good start though would be more recognition that far too many of the people that bang on about this issue have no actual interest in the fairness of sports for women, that it is too often just another excuse for public airing of shitty transphobia. |
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"To be clear, trans athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics since 2004. That's 4 Olympic games. This was the first year that any have qualified. And famously Laural Hubbard didn't even place...so I'm not sure why people still think trans people are dominating sports??? Lol"
Because all news regarding trans people in sport, is generally biased against the trans community. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Easy solution, separate category for MTF athletes or compete in men’s which is actual I learned today all inclusive. Women’s sports I think should be left to biologically born women IF that’s what the female sports communities wants. We have to respect everyone’s rights |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Thiccasfuck has covered just about all of it as far as I can see. The only thing I'd probably disagree with is on F1. Have you ever seen an F1 driver with a skinny neck? 
My two cents are:
Pre-ramble caveat: human physiology means there will always be exceptions to the rule.
The natural advantages puberty gives a biologically born male over a female means competition where muscle strength and bone density is a key factor to winning is inherently unfair. The only thing I've not seen mentioned is myonuclei. Men are typically able to fire their muscles with more force than women because of their higher frequency.
Essentially, if you've been through male puberty, even once you've transitioned, you are highly likely to have physical stats which CAN'T be naturally achieved by any female beyond the 0.1% of the already miniscule sample of genetic outliers in female strength-based sports. (Bone density, fibre thickness, testosterone v estradiol levels, myonuclei, etc).
If we're talking about size advantages within a sex, we already segregate in most strength and combat sports. There's usually an upper division such as heavyweight which has no weight cap. This means the biggest biologically born female can face the biggest biologically born male/trans woman. Males are statistically likely to be bigger and stronger (and have a greater extreme in the upper range of big and strong) than women. Needless to say, the scope for permanent injury to the biologically born female is great (for reasons already covered in this thread) and is something that should be taken very seriously and guarded against (in many people's opinions).
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Thiccasfuck has covered just about all of it as far as I can see. The only thing I'd probably disagree with is on F1. Have you ever seen an F1 driver with a skinny neck?
My two cents are:
Pre-ramble caveat: human physiology means there will always be exceptions to the rule.
The natural advantages puberty gives a biologically born male over a female means competition where muscle strength and bone density is a key factor to winning is inherently unfair. The only thing I've not seen mentioned is myonuclei. Men are typically able to fire their muscles with more force than women because of their higher frequency.
Essentially, if you've been through male puberty, even once you've transitioned, you are highly likely to have physical stats which CAN'T be naturally achieved by any female beyond the 0.1% of the already miniscule sample of genetic outliers in female strength-based sports. (Bone density, fibre thickness, testosterone v estradiol levels, myonuclei, etc).
If we're talking about size advantages within a sex, we already segregate in most strength and combat sports. There's usually an upper division such as heavyweight which has no weight cap. This means the biggest biologically born female can face the biggest biologically born male/trans woman. Males are statistically likely to be bigger and stronger (and have a greater extreme in the upper range of big and strong) than women. Needless to say, the scope for permanent injury to the biologically born female is great (for reasons already covered in this thread) and is something that should be taken very seriously and guarded against (in many people's opinions).
"
The W series is providing female racing drivers a platform now that should see women start to enter F!. They follow the F1 tour, race on the same circuits, with no car advantage and they are very good.
Your second point of on power, speed and male advantage is not in question and in sports that are all about strength and speed I can see your point. However there are far more sports that are skill based than pure strength based and if you applied your weight category that should eliminate bad matches. If gender was removed from competition, males, females and trans could compete against each other as people rather than gender, I can't see the issue with that, the best will come to the top. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
The W series is providing female racing drivers a platform now that should see women start to enter F!. They follow the F1 tour, race on the same circuits, with no car advantage and they are very good.
Your second point of on power, speed and male advantage is not in question and in sports that are all about strength and speed I can see your point. However there are far more sports that are skill based than pure strength based and if you applied your weight category that should eliminate bad matches. If gender was removed from competition, males, females and trans could compete against each other as people rather than gender, I can't see the issue with that, the best will come to the top. "
I thought it was clear I was kidding re F1, sorry. I think if they put a comparably quick woman - trans or otherwise - in an F1 car, the team would make a lot of money on sponsorship so there's nothing for them to lose. If they haven't already it's because either no one's been quick enough, or no one's been in a position to show they're quick enough. Lots of good female drivers moving through the junior ranks and in karting right now, so we'll see.
Not sure why you'd put a trans woman in W-series (thinking about the TERF argument), but that's not the debate here. On a side note, I think Charlie Martin races against dudes, though I might be wrong.
On your second point, I can't see a need to separate into weight classes if physical size or strength isn't a determining factor to the chances of winning. But if a sport IS separated into weight and sex, then the peer-reviewed evidence I've seen (and I've seen a bit as this is something that interests me) strongly suggests trans women usually have an advantage over cis women. It seems there's a movement in the sporting community to say that advantage is probably unfair. I can't help but agree with that. |
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By *ssex_tom OP Man
over a year ago
Chelmsford |
"Might as well say that there is no safe and fair solution to ever allowing both tall people and short people to take part in sports.
You want a fair solution - take the gendering out of the equation. Have sports organise teams and matches along lines of size, weight, strength, ability - heavyweight league, featherweight league. Increase the telly profile of sports where weight, speed, strength do not necessarily confer an advantage.
It's all a very hard question, I don't think there is any simple answer that could be universally accepted. A good start though would be more recognition that far too many of the people that bang on about this issue have no actual interest in the fairness of sports for women, that it is too often just another excuse for public airing of shitty transphobia."
And sadly that's too often the fallback position that stifles any healthy debate.. |
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Re: mixed teams can't/won't work. It does in wheelchair sports. Wheelchair rugby, right up to elite level is mixed. Wheelchair basketball is mixed right up to Division 1. It only becomes gender specific at the really elite level. I compete with and against men all the time. They smash into me just as hard as they do against the guys. It fucking hurts if that collision causes your chair to tip too. Guys out-reach me if I'm trying to shoot. They out reach me if I'm trying to defend. You just come up with ways around it.
It wouldn't even be a thing if a transgender person joined our sport, everyone lumps in together. Maybe we're getting some things right?! By the way, I actually dislike the fact that our elite teams ARE gendered. I'd favour mixed gender teams all the way. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Re: mixed teams can't/won't work. It does in wheelchair sports. Wheelchair rugby, right up to elite level is mixed. Wheelchair basketball is mixed right up to Division 1. It only becomes gender specific at the really elite level. I compete with and against men all the time. They smash into me just as hard as they do against the guys. It fucking hurts if that collision causes your chair to tip too. Guys out-reach me if I'm trying to shoot. They out reach me if I'm trying to defend. You just come up with ways around it.
It wouldn't even be a thing if a transgender person joined our sport, everyone lumps in together. Maybe we're getting some things right?! By the way, I actually dislike the fact that our elite teams ARE gendered. I'd favour mixed gender teams all the way."
How well do you think that would work in union or league? |
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"Might as well say that there is no safe and fair solution to ever allowing both tall people and short people to take part in sports.
You want a fair solution - take the gendering out of the equation. Have sports organise teams and matches along lines of size, weight, strength, ability - heavyweight league, featherweight league. Increase the telly profile of sports where weight, speed, strength do not necessarily confer an advantage.
It's all a very hard question, I don't think there is any simple answer that could be universally accepted. A good start though would be more recognition that far too many of the people that bang on about this issue have no actual interest in the fairness of sports for women, that it is too often just another excuse for public airing of shitty transphobia.
And sadly that's too often the fallback position that stifles any healthy debate.. "
I have no objection to healthy debate on this, and I do think that there in fact has been some good debate on this very thread. However it is a fact that the transgender/sport issue is raised at regular intervals by some of the most transphobic and toxic voices - not talking fab now, I'm talking about many of the UK "news"papers, politicians, sundry trans hatred groups that pollute a lot of social media, "religious" groups that in fact have zero godliness and would be condemned by Jesus... It is the presence of these sort of voices that actually prevents any sensible discussion. They really have no genuine interest in the fairness of sporting events and the issues of gender - their true agenda is just that they want transgender people to not exist (it is notable that having had quite excellent success in the UK with raising hatred against trans people, the same voices are now upping their game to include denying the existence of bisexuality, and making moves against provision of contraception and sex education for teens).
Generally speaking transgender people are the ones that are most open to discussions of genuine problems relating to cis/trans gender interactions, as being the minority group we are the ones most often being poked by the pointy end of the stick. Yes there are some trans people that I would classify as being plain nuts, though most often they have been driven that way by ill-treatment they have received from society. Mostly though, we're the 1%, we don't have big money or powerful friends, we don't have a "trans agenda", there is no trans cabal taking over sport/politics/religion/medicine/whatever. We'd like to be able to go for a pee when we're out shopping, and some of us like doing sporting activities (and some of us don't). Mainly, we don't want to be noticed as we know that it always leads to trouble for us. |
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