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Hillsborough - The Search For The Truth!

By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

Today is a momentus day for Liverpool football fans and the people of Merseyside, but it should also be a momentus day for football fans of any team.

23 years ago I was 5 days short of being 28 years old, and 10 days away (though I didn't know exactly how long at the time) from my youngest daughter being born when I went with 1000's of others to the FA Cup semi final vs Nottingham Forest with 2 friends on 15 April 1989. We all went into the Death Pens of Leppings Lane, and by luck, all 3 of us survived that day.

Instead of Liverpool fans and most importantly the family members of the dead and injured being treated in a proper and caring manner, an exercise of blame shift took place from the highest levels in various authorities.

I personally will never forget the sight of 40 odd ambulances sat outside on Leppings Lane, with their crew all sat inside them while yards away men, women and children were injured and many were fighting for their lives and were being saved by their fellow supporters. It is known that at least one victim was alive between 3.50pm and 4.05pm before he uttered his last words calling out for his Mum. Many survivors were seriously injured and may have suffered less if only the ambulances came to help them.

Hillsborough is a day I'll never forget, and fete chose Liverpool to suffer that day, but it could have been Nottingham Forest, or Everton or Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea etc.

Football has changed in many ways in the last 23 years, but today I hope that The Hillsborough Independent Panel will deliver a re_iew that will open the final chapter of The Hillsborough Story.

If you read this and wish to take a moment, Liverpool as a city will be having 2 minutes silence from 3.06pm, the time the disaster is attributed too and from 6pm tonight there is a vigil in the city to remember the dead, the families and to think about the survivors too. In addition The Prime Minister will be making a commons statement at 12.30 today.

Thank you for reading

RIP and Justice for the 96

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

Its far too long to wait, i hope today is the beginning of some sort of justice for the victims of this tragedy..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

this has gone on way too long and hope today the people in question are dealt with accordingly,and that the familys of the victims can get the answers they have waited so long for,justice for the 96

Newcastle United

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

YNWA

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By *histler21Man over a year ago

Ipswich

I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions.

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

Jim Boardman ?@JimBoardman

#HIP "Multiple factors were responsible for the deaths of the 96. The fans were not responsible."

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By *histler21Man over a year ago

Ipswich

"Jim Boardman ?@JimBoardman

#HIP "Multiple factors were responsible for the deaths of the 96. The fans were not responsible.""

Forgive my ignorance - where did the crush originate from then?

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

Nick Robinson ?@bbcnickrobinson

Standby for Bloody Sunday style apology from PM after reading Hillsborough report but will it focus on role of police or politicians?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

ynwa

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions."

Youre a victim of misinformation given out by the responsible authorities.

From the Taylor report.

“Sheffield Wednesday FC’s own admission count system showed the terrace did not exceed its 10,100 capacity (for the Leppings Lane end). As part of their analysis, the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) counted the number of [Liverpool] supporters entering the ground, including those through the turnstiles, through Gate C and even those who climbed over the turnstiles. They gave three admission figures based on their analysis. Their first figure was 9,267, their ‘best estimate’ was 9,734, and their third figure was a ‘maximum estimate’ of 10,124. The HSE report stated it was unlikely that the terrace exceeded 10,124 and that total admissions were approximately equal to the designated capacity of 10,100 people. Taylor surmised there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the Disaster,” The Hillsborough Football Disaster: Context And Consequences, page 1

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Nick Robinson ?@bbcnickrobinson

Standby for Bloody Sunday style apology from PM after reading Hillsborough report but will it focus on role of police or politicians?"

Don't think Cameron should make an apology - as it would be vomit-inducing and bloody patronising like all the other shit that comes out of his mouth.

Now, the then-Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police - YES. That 'bunch' were in charge of ensuring the crowds were managed correctly that day and they failed. If anyone should be making an apology it's them.

YNWA

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"Jim Boardman ?@JimBoardman

#HIP "Multiple factors were responsible for the deaths of the 96. The fans were not responsible."

Forgive my ignorance - where did the crush originate from then?"

Whistler, you are wrong and you will discover this over the next few hours but I would be more than happy to talk to you over this at any time. For the record though the capacity of the standing area of the Leppings Lane end of the ground was 10,100 and the HSE report into the disaster dated 1st February 1990 stated the actual number of people who were in the Leppings Lane terraces was 10,124.

I was at both the 1988 and 1989 semi final. The biggest difference was the Match Comander was changed a few weeks before the 1989 semi final from a guy called mole to aguy called Duckinfield, Mole was experienced in football matches, Duckinfield wasn't. The previous year 3 lines of police checked tickets and effectively slowed the amount of fans entering Leppings Lane, in 1989 no police lines were there and no management of people happened outside the stadium.

Having allowed a crush to develop outside the ground, Duckinfield then ordered a big exit gate to be opened 3 times, while not stopping access to the terraces down a tunnel into pens that were wlready seriously overcrowded.

Having realised his error and starting to see the consequences, Duckinfield then lied by telling Kelly of the FA that the gate was forced open by Liverpool fans. That was the first part of a monumental cover up that leads people like to to state untrue things as fact, because a combination of government, press, police and various other authorities have peddled this lie for 20 plus years.

In the next 20 minutes or so after this post, Prime Minister Cameron will start to put things on the right path by I believe apologising in the Commons.

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"Nick Robinson ?@bbcnickrobinson

Standby for Bloody Sunday style apology from PM after reading Hillsborough report but will it focus on role of police or politicians?

Don't think Cameron should make an apology - as it would be vomit-inducing and bloody patronising like all the other shit that comes out of his mouth.

YNWA

I understand your sentiment, but personally I believe Cameron should formally apologise in the Commons. It puts it on the record, he doesn't speak for himself, he speaks for his office and should prosecutions follow on from this, or as we all want the inquests reopened to change the verdict from accidental death to unlawful killings.

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By *isscheekychopsWoman over a year ago

The land of grey peas and bacon

I remember watching the drama series made about this and it was clear that there were failings from people that really should of known what they are doing. The tragic event led to the shaping of football stadiums we have today.. Its a Shame that such tragic events happened for this to take place .

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I hope the truth will out and give peace to all those who lost someone or were traumatised by the events. xxx

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By *ove2-shareCouple over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

All my family on me dads side are from Aigburth so I have been waiting for this for years. i truely hope all the truth can come out fully and that those who covered up are brought to justice and allow people some closure, not just justice for thier actions on the day but also for compounding the misery through fraudulently altering evidence.

I also hope this acts a reminder to Liverpool and the rest of britain(particularly the young who may not truely understand the depth of feeling in liverpool)what a lying, sickening manipulative evil rag The Sun is . Sales of the sun have always remained low since then, I wish more people would boycott it.

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By *uggers nemesisCouple over a year ago

london

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions."

It was the non-biased and ethical 'sun'newspaper that disgracefully shifted the blame from the police to the fans,even accusing the fans of robbing the dead,disgusting

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

The Sun also wrote:

In one shameful episode, a gang of Liverpool fans noticed the blouse of a girl trampled to death in the crush had risen above her breasts.

As a policeman struggled in vain to revive her, they jeered: “ Throw her up here and we will **** her.”

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions.

It was the non-biased and ethical 'sun' newspaper that disgracefully shifted the blame from the police to the fans,even accusing the fans of robbing the dead,disgusting"

In the Prime Ministers statement, he said that it was South Yorks Police who started the lies about the Liverpool fans looting the dead. It was Kelvin McKenzie's Sun 'newspaper' which regurgitated it in such a disgusting way without double checking the sources.

Hope the Lord Chancellor does overturn the original findings, start a new Coroners Enquiry, which hopefully will bring a verdict which will allow criminal proceedings against those who deliberately set out to pervert the course of the truth coming out. Don't know how these people can sleep at night.....

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By *iewMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Angus & Findhorn

all in all very sad for those who lost their lives and their families xx

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By *arkstaffsMan over a year ago

Rugeley

I do hope that finally after all this time the people who were there that day and the families of those who perished get the answers and apology they deserve.

As for that so called newspaper, it has got away with writing rubbish for too long, at least it is still boycotted in the Merseyside area.

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By *iewMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Angus & Findhorn

A very dignified & sincere apology from Mr Cameron

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A sad situation that has been made worse with reports that are at best were insensitive. I really hope the government and the rest have learnt from this terrible event.

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By *lubPartyPeepsCouple over a year ago

London

My friend John Glover who lost his son there will be made up by this and he is fighting a loosing battle with cancer, so I am so glad he lived to hear this.

On the comment re-fans enterting without tickets, that is NOT what happened. The Police failed to properly organise arriving fans as they had done on previous years resulting in a massive build up by the turn styles which was causing injury - at this time, Pens 3 and 4 were already dangerously over crowded and a number of people were suffering. The Police, trying to relieve the pressure outside the ground opened a concertina gate, during which time 3000 fans passed through in a number of minutes, a number of people who died, went through that gate. The Police, failed to close off the tunnel to Pens 3 and 4, which would have directed the fans around the sides to Pens 1 and 6 which were at the time half empty and not clearly sign posted. The majority of the fans went straight up the tunnel into the pen which was already packed. Those were the events that led to the disaster, the primary failure of which was 'Lack of Police Control' (Taylor report, and every subsequent report since)

This was then compounded by a number of other mistakes that made everytyhing that followed ten times worse, and the grief for the families even harder to reconcile.

I hope now that they can have some modicrum degree of peace.

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By *bbandflowCouple over a year ago

South Devon

That the South Yorkshire police were operationally incompetent and negligent is one thing.

That they used the prevailing stereotype of eighties football fans..animals to be caged..in order to systematically cover up their incompetence is truly shocking

For all the bereaved families who have campaigned ceaselessly for the last twenty three years I hope they can take some comfort from the fact they have been vindicated

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By *uggers nemesisCouple over a year ago

london

"That the South Yorkshire police were operationally incompetent and negligent is one thing.

That they used the prevailing stereotype of eighties football fans..animals to be caged..in order to systematically cover up their incompetence is truly shocking

For all the bereaved families who have campaigned ceaselessly for the last twenty three years I hope they can take some comfort from the fact they have been vindicated "

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By *igTeeMan over a year ago

Bradford

I'm a mad Liverpool fan but it don't matter what club you support we all come together as one at times like this

Finally the truth what we all knew deep down has finally come out

JFT96 Angels

YNWA

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions."

Maybe you should read the report. It is comments like this that have caused such distress for the families for 23 years. Even today when the TRUE events come out it is still happening.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

Finally...the truth is told.

I am guessing for the families it is a distressing day rather than a happy one and the feelings must be bitter sweet.

The saddest part of the report is that 41 people could have been saved if they had had help. So sad.

RIP to all the 96.

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By *edbagioMan over a year ago

ripon

what bugs me now;is it nearly happend

at two other matches at hillsbrough;

only got that off the radio today.

i was allways under the illusion

the fans rushed in without tickets.

and stand corected

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"what bugs me now;is it nearly happend

at two other matches at hillsbrough;

only got that off the radio today.

i was allways under the illusion

the fans rushed in without tickets.

and stand corected"

You weren't alone in thinking that because the Police set about on a black propoganda exercise to make you think that. As I said in my OP I was there and I know that wasn't the case, plus Liverpool fans and Liverpool families have known these facts for many years including the 2 previous incidents you refer to, just no one was listening.

I'm sure you'll see lots of info in the press which is true now, but if you want to read for yourself a concise synopsis of the Hillsborough disaster read a book called Hillsborough - The Truth by Phil Scraton

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

The amount of things they covered up and lied about is exactly what the families and Liverpool fans who where there have been saying for the last 23 years.

These people should be ashamed of themselves.....but I think it is disgusting that it has took 23 long years for them to finally let the truth out.

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"Finally...the truth is told.

I am guessing for the families it is a distressing day rather than a happy one and the feelings must be bitter sweet.

The saddest part of the report is that 41 people could have been saved if they had had help. So sad.

RIP to all the 96."

I found that shocking too. It's funny I've been able to keep Hillsborough pretty well bottled up for the last 23 years apart from the odd occasion and taking part in the protest march in London a few years ago, or chanting Justice for the 96 at matches, but today Cameron's speech, when I was recapping it to my Mum, reduced me to tears, not something I'm proud of, perhaps it was the relief of knowing that the Truth is finally out there.

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By *els_BellsWoman over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

"Finally...the truth is told.

I am guessing for the families it is a distressing day rather than a happy one and the feelings must be bitter sweet.

The saddest part of the report is that 41 people could have been saved if they had had help. So sad.

RIP to all the 96.

I sat and cried throughout Cameron's speech, I think like you, that they were tears of relief that we have finally been believed after all this time.

Let's hope over the next few months everyone will see the justice deserved!

RIP 96, YNWA

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By *ust_for_laughsCouple over a year ago

Hinckley

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions."

Some people need to engage their brains before their fingers, or at least have waited for today's findings before rehashing the same old rubbish that's been spouted for over 20 years now.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions.

Maybe you should read the report. It is comments like this that have caused such distress for the families for 23 years. Even today when the TRUE events come out it is still happening.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"The saddest part of the report is that 41 people could have been saved if they had had help. So sad.

RIP to all the 96."

that is in some ways the most devastating indictement of the whole avoidable tragedy..

ambulances were sat outside and people died through a lack of medical attention..

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions."

Shame on you.

After it has taken 23 years to establish the truth you prefer to ignore the evidence and information and keep to prejudice and ignorance.

It was prejudice and ignorance which allowed the police to assume 'hooligans' were trying to invade the pitch, even though they were ordinary people trying to reach safety while people at the front were already dying.

It was prejudice and ignorance which kept ambulances and medical staff out of the stadium in the crucial minutes after 3.06pm.

I am sat in tears watching one mother on LFC TV describe how her son died (after 4pm). Her determination, calmness and dignity are inspirational. She, and the other families, deserve the truth and an end to prejudice and ignorance.

Justice For The 96.

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By *nJ_NW_cplCouple over a year ago

wirral

Unfortunately there are some who will never believe us. The supporters involved in the crush had nowhere to go as they were herded into those pens at an unbelievable rate. What makes this so sad today is that even after the initial mistakes if they had let the ambulances in up to 41 people may still be alive and well now. JFT96 xxx

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions.

Shame on you.

After it has taken 23 years to establish the truth you prefer to ignore the evidence and information and keep to prejudice and ignorance.

It was prejudice and ignorance which kept ambulances and medical staff out of the stadium in the crucial minutes after 3.06pm.

Justice For The 96.

Well said...... YNWA

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By *U1966Man over a year ago

Devon

Supported Liverpool since 1971 when i was 5 this day day has been far to long in coming and most probably too late to bring those resposible to justice David Cameron words meen nothing without actions

Went to watch Torquay United play Sheffield Wednesday in january 1989 and was crushed against railings after emerging from tunnel with maybe 2000 fans watched in horror on the television the events at the liverpool match and have never forgot that day

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Would like to see procecutions for those who covered it up but like many other miscaraiges of justice in this country nothing will happen to those responsable .

YNWA from all in scotland.

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By *ethany10Couple over a year ago

falkirk

And YNWA means?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"And YNWA means?"

You'll never walk alone

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Youl never walk alone ,bethany.x

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By *ethany10Couple over a year ago

falkirk

Ah, of course. Thanks.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I'm a mad Liverpool fan but it don't matter what club you support we all come together as one at times like this

Finally the truth what we all knew deep down has finally come out

JFT96 Angels

YNWA "

I'm a true blue, grew up in the shadows of goodison and anfield and this is something that has cut deep throughout the city for many many years, no matter what colour you support.

YNWA

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions."

I suppose you read the scummy scabby s*n then given your ignorant comment.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I was there that dreadful day and lost 2 friends, 1 who i carried off on an advertising hoarding. Those who were there knew what went on that day and the relief that we were proved right is amazing. Far too many people chose to believe a newspaper but all along we knew 'the truth' would come out. For us this is just the start now we want a new inquiry and inquest and the reasons for the deaths changed. YNWA

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By *UNCHBOXMan over a year ago

folkestone

Glad to see that the truth finally came out of a police cover up. It was shocking that Duckinfield was allowed to get early retirement and not brought to account.

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"Finally...the truth is told.

I am guessing for the families it is a distressing day rather than a happy one and the feelings must be bitter sweet.

The saddest part of the report is that 41 people could have been saved if they had had help. So sad.

RIP to all the 96."

Like you, Rugby, I was deeply shocked that upto 41 of the 96 may have been saved if the medical staff had done their jobs rather than sitting in ambulances in Leppings Lane.

However, in some ways even more shocking was the news that as part of the Police cover up, ot only did they and the coronor test every victim for alcohol including the youngest who was just 10 years old, but for those that didn't have even a trace of alcohol in them, the Police then accessed the Police National Computer to see if the victim had a criminal record in order to besmirch their name. Even SYP's current chief constable has agreed that this is potentially a criminal offence.

I went to the vigil tonight in Liverpool, it was on this occasion a happily sad occasion, sad because it's always sad to hear the names of the 96 being read out, and knowing that but for luck my name would have been in the "C's", and happy because this time I knew that the 96 had just been proven innocent along with all of us survivors whom were there that day.

As for McKenzie's grovelling apology today, too little too late, and here's hoping he's never again used on programs such as the BBC's Question Time etc.

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By *lubPartyPeepsCouple over a year ago

London

Hear Hear.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

When you walk though the storm

Hold your head up high

And don't be afraid of the dark

At the end of the storm

There's a golden sky

And the sweet silver song of the lark

Walk on through the wind

Walk on through the rain

Though your dreams be tossed and blown

Walk on.walk on.with hope in your heart

And you'll never walk alone

Walk on.walk on,with hope in your heart

And you'll never walk alone

YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE

God bless the 96 rip

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

To argue that the fans were not responsible for the disaster may not be entirely accurate. Sure, the fans there that day were not responsible for what happened at Hillborough, but one has to remember why every football ground in England had pens in the first place. English football had been blighted by hooliganism for many years (even keeping us out of European competition for 5 years as a direct result of Liverpool fans causing the crush at Hysel that resulted in the deaths of 39 people). You'd have thought that Liverpool FC would have learned from Hysel about the consequences of crowd crushing and made sure that it addressed the problem of fans arriving for a match without tickets.

Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen, it was always going to happen, somewhere, as the authorities, the FA and individual stadiums didn't have computer monitoring equipment and advanced CCTV coupled with the facility to relay information to crowd control officers quickly and efficiently.

I am glad the truth is finally out, I am glad Mr Cameron has apologised on behalf of the government, I am glad South Yorks Police have issued an apology, and that Mackenzie, editor of The Sun at the time, has also issued an apology, but I would also like to see Liverpool FC admit to their part in the tragedy also. It can't be a coincidence that deaths due to crowd crushing happened to the same club less than four years apart at different venues.

I watched the events unfolding on TV that day and I said to the friend I was with when reports of deaths started coming in that it was going to get higher and higher. I never thought it would be 96 though.

RIP, finally.

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By *ea and SugarCouple over a year ago

Manchester

As a staunch Manchester United fan I am glad that the families of those who died - and those whose lives were affected by the tragedy, can at last begin to move forward, knowing that their friends and loved one's have been exonerated from blame.

I have 4 boys aged from 6 to 20, and we are all season ticket holders at Old Trafford, and have all been to semi finals and finals following our team - I could not imagine what happened that day at Hillsborough, and how those they left behind felt watching events unfold, let alone having to endure the lies and blame shifting that went on afterwards.

May all 96 finally rest in peace x

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Glad to see that the truth finally came out of a police cover up. It was shocking that Duckinfield was allowed to get early retirement and not brought to account. "

It was because of Hillsborough and Duckingfield's shameful part in it - and the ensuing lies after it to cover his sorry ass - that no police officer can retire on health grounds while under investigation or in the process of facing a disciplinary procedure. This came into effect in April 2000.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It broke my heart seeing it all happen 23 yrs ago ! But you know what ? Us football fans are still classed as low life's by the police! Justice at last for the 96 from the red half of Manchester

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By *bbandflowCouple over a year ago

South Devon

"To argue that the fans were not responsible for the disaster may not be entirely accurate. Sure, the fans there that day were not responsible for what happened at Hillborough, but one has to remember why every football ground in England had pens in the first place. English football had been blighted by hooliganism for many years (even keeping us out of European competition for 5 years as a direct result of Liverpool fans causing the crush at Hysel that resulted in the deaths of 39 people). You'd have thought that Liverpool FC would have learned from Hysel about the consequences of crowd crushing and made sure that it addressed the problem of fans arriving for a match without tickets.

RIP, finally."

The crush at Heysel had nothing to do with fans arriving without tickets, it was a direct result of Liverpool fans breaching a fence into an area containing Juventus fans.

It may be accurate to say that the operational incompetence and subsequent negligence of the South Yorks police was a result of the prevailing mindset of authorities at that time, and that mindset was a consequence of Heysel and the prevalent hooligan culture.

But you are correct in saying that it was a disaster waiting to happen. Once the fences were in place, there was always going to be potential for such a disaster as Hillsborough.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

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By *uckoo clockCouple over a year ago

Merseyside

Ironic too that Norman Bettison was dogged by claims that he was part of the South Yorkshire police campaign to smear The Liverpool Fans.He was later promoted to Chief Constable of Merseyside and subsequently knighted.

So too Irvinne Patnick, M.P.for sheffield who fed misinformation to the Sun newspaper !!

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By *ogistical NightmaresCouple over a year ago

Manchester Area

Pity the Corporate Manslaughter Act couldnt be used.

At last ..... Justice for the 96

YNWA

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well it may have taken 23 years but I hope the families of the 96 get the justice they deserve and those in authority who were complicit in the cover up get what's coming to them. A further wish would be that we can at some point move on to a sensible debate on safe standing, as modern designs, stewarding, policing and club memberships are a world away from Hillsborough, it works in Germany so why not here?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A very dignified & sincere apology from Mr Cameron"
they want more than a apology it was thatcher who ordered the whole cover up

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

interesting to hear a serving PC from S. Yorks speaking on 5 live earlier about his surprise that a paragraph from his own statement was deleted without his knowledge..

would like to see many more from those who attended the incident also now do so..

a full public enquiry would be a start, put people on oath and any allegations post that to the CPS..

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By *iewMan over a year ago
Forum Mod

Angus & Findhorn

"A very dignified & sincere apology from Mr Cameronthey want more than a apology it was thatcher who ordered the whole cover up"

was that in the report?

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By *icketysplitsWoman over a year ago

Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound

This won't be settled until there is another Coroner's Court. The apologies are great to hear but does Jack Straw have a point that the police were allowed to be above the law?

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

RIP, finally."

It is entirely accurate to say that the fans were not responsible..

many, many factors led to what happened on that day..

similar factors also led to Ibrox, Bradford and others..

The similarities between Heysel and Hillsborough were also that they were both unfit venue's to hold matches of that 'importance'..

there were not only English 'hooligans'e at Heysel..

How on earth can any club prevent people turning up to a match without tickets, it happens at every sporting event including the Olympics where touts had plenty to sell..

Agree that this was a disaster waiting to happen...

just what exactly do you mean by Liverpool FC admitting to 'their part' and 'it cant be a coincidence'..

Read the Taylor report and the independant panels...

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"This won't be settled until there is another Coroner's Court. The apologies are great to hear but does Jack Straw have a point that the police were allowed to be above the law?"

Think the Attourney General has no option but to overturn the original Coroner's findings, then a full public enquiry would be the appropriate level..

Straw may have a point post the miners strike etc but he had the chance to set up a public enquiry after 87..

he did'nt and cant help but feel there is a bit of politcal deflection going on here..

lots of apologies and many more to come no doubt..

the fact that in this of all countries such things have gone on and the system has not only failed the citizenship but conspired at very high levels to denigrate the victims should be a wake up moment for us as a society..

some of our institutions have within them some pretty corrupt and incompetent people..

but was it ever thus?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

Did you read my second sentence or stop dead at the first and hit 'Reply'?

Of course those fans alreayd in the stadium well and early in time for kick off and with a ticket were not to blame for being crushed to death by those fans arriving late without a ticket pushing at the turnstiles desperate to get in in time for the match, which led to officials panicking, police officers not knowing what to do and then the entire catalyst of a decision to open an exit gate to relieve the pressure of the throng outside but in fact left directly to those fans outside rushing to get in to an open gate. They had a herd mentality and no thought for their own safety or that of anyone else - they just had to get in the stadium to see the game.

I stand by what I said earlier in that Liverpool FC need to stop sitting on the fence whining about 'poor us, what have the done to us,' and hold their hands up and say, "Yes, we could have organised it better, PARTICULARLY after Heysel." (in so much as how to handle penned in crowds determined to move to another pen for whatever reason).

Yes, I agree that Heysel was a poor choice for a EUFA final (and it never held another football match after that until it was flattened and rebuilt), but Hillsborough was more than suitable for high profile matches, the problem arose when the person responsible for policing in previous matches was replaced by someone with little or no experience of how to deal with such an event.

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

Did you read my second sentence or stop dead at the first and hit 'Reply'?

Your talking shit, again.

Leppings Lane stand was deemed unsuitable in 1981 after 38 Spurs fans suffered crush related injuries. Sheffield Wednesday never carried out the work required. In addition to the 1981 incident, crushes also occurred at Hillsborough in 1987 and 1988. In fact Liverpool played Nottingham Forest in the same stage of the tournament one year prior at the same ground where Liverpool fans were crushed. Liverpool filed an official complaint prior to the 1989 FA-Cup semi final to air their concerns about safety.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"To argue that the fans were not responsible for the disaster may not be entirely accurate. Sure, the fans there that day were not responsible for what happened at Hillborough, but one has to remember why every football ground in England had pens in the first place. English football haiid been blighted by hooliganism for many years (even keeping us out of European competition for 5 years as a direct result of Liverpool fans causing the crush at Hysel that resulted in the deaths of 39 people). You'd have thought that Liverpool FC would have learned from Hysel about the consequences of crowd crushing and made sure that it addressed the problem of fans arriving for a match without tickets.

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

Did you read my second sentence or stop dead at the first and hit 'Reply'?

Others would criticise both the Club and Sheffield City Council for the fact that the ground did not have a valid safety certificate:

The certificate took no account of the 1981 and 1985 alterations of the ground.

Quoted from the Taylor report, the grounds were not suitable for a high profile match

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By *bbandflowCouple over a year ago

South Devon

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

Did you read my second sentence or stop dead at the first and hit 'Reply'?

Before the 1981 FA Cup semi-final between Tottenham and Wolves there was a serious crush on the same terrace, in which many people were injured and fatalities narrowly avoided. Following the incident, there was a breakdown in the relationship between Sheffield Wednesday and South Yorkshire Police.

The club refused to accept the seriousness of the incident and held the police responsible. It is apparent the stadium failed to meet minimum safety standards for sports grounds. Proposals to feed supporters from designated turnstiles to specific pens were not acted on because Wednesday’s primary concern was to limit costs. There was a delayed kick-off at the 1987 FA Cup semi-final there and crushing at the 1988 semi-final..

Hillsborough a suitable venue, really !!

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

“I have already found that there was not an abnormally large number of fans without tickets on this occasion. With one or two exceptions, the police witnesses themselves did not subscribe to the ‘conspiracy’ theory (of a large number

of late-arriving ticketless supporters). I am satisfied that the large concentration at Leppings Lane from 2.30 pm to 2.50 pm did not arrive as a result of any concerted plan" The Interim Taylor Report, paragraph 208.

"The crowd outside started to grow at around 2.30pm, a full 15 minutes before the official match ticket stated that supporters were to be in the ground. This in itself dispels the myth that Liverpool fans turned up late."

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By *histler21Man over a year ago

Ipswich

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions.

Maybe you should read the report. It is comments like this that have caused such distress for the families for 23 years. Even today when the TRUE events come out it is still happening.

I think the latest revelations make the conclusions of the original coroners report and subsequent enquiry unsafe.

There were a catalog of errors on this day - and very few sections of those attending on this day are completely without blame.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"To argue that the fans were not responsible for the disaster may not be entirely accurate. .........You'd have thought that Liverpool FC would have learned from Hysel about the consequences of crowd crushing and made sure that it addressed the problem of fans arriving for a match without tickets.

Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen, "

And what was the truth? GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD.

THE FANS WERE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DISASTER. THE POLICE LIED. THE AUTORITIES LIED BECAUSE THEY CAUSED THE DISASTER AND DEFELECTED THE BLAME ONTO THE FANS.

'Ticketless' fans didnt cause the crush The police caused the crush. The stand capacity was 10100 there is a top estimate that the number of fans was 10124.

Some of your comments are pure ignorance at best.

Your a victim of the police misinformation and you dont even realise it.

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By *uggers nemesisCouple over a year ago

london

Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen,

And what was the truth? GET IT INTO YOUR HEAD.

THE FANS WERE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DISASTER. THE POLICE LIED. THE AUTORITIES LIED BECAUSE THEY CAUSED THE DISASTER AND DEFELECTED THE BLAME ONTO THE FANS.

'Ticketless' fans didnt cause the crush The police caused the crush. The stand capacity was 10100 there is a top estimate that the number of fans was 10124.

Some of your comments are pure ignorance at best.

Your a victim of the police misinformation and you dont even realise it.

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By *bbandflowCouple over a year ago

South Devon

"I hope the fans who tried to enter the stadium without tickets will feel ashamed of their actions too. Sadly, they will never feel the backlash of their actions.

Maybe you should read the report. It is comments like this that have caused such distress for the families for 23 years. Even today when the TRUE events come out it is still happening.

I think the latest revelations make the conclusions of the original coroners report and subsequent enquiry unsafe.

There were a catalog of errors on this day - and very few sections of those attending on this day are completely without blame.

But not the Liverpool fans!!..maybe you should do the decent thing and retract your original post...to be fair to you many understandably accepted the Police version of events.

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By *amschwingerzCouple over a year ago

West

[Removed by poster at 13/09/12 21:10:01]

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By *amschwingerzCouple over a year ago

West

And the police are still treating people like dirt every week at football matches..

I am a veteran of a hundred or so away games..and still go occasionally, the police treat a lot of supporters like fucking dirt..and Yorkshire police have have quite a reputation on their own..

Kettling etc, handing out sly digs with their batons, the heavy mob, robo cops are there for a reason, they enjoy the aggro and know exactly what they are doing when it comes to whipping it up a bit.

Everyone (except Sun readers) always knew the truth

The filth have implicated themselves by lying, falsifying statements etc etc..IMO they are the real culprits, exposed as total incompetents, and worse institutional liars..and bear in mind they are very good liars when it suits them...(apologies to any decent cops reading this)

To easy to blame the supporters..at the end of the day they went to watch a football match..they wernt d*unken scum hooligans, they were mostly blokes who just went to a match and enjoyed a few beers..they wanted to see a game of football thats all..it happens every week at many grounds..the gates were opened for them..so they went in..

Oh and one thing that also played a major part...fencing.

As for the Sun, gutter press at its best..why do people read it?, boring stories about nothing, lies, quarter truths, stupid pun 'headlines', and supposition...the paper of fools who still beleive in Santa

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

Did you read my second sentence or stop dead at the first and hit 'Reply'?

just what is your issue Wishy, you are wrong on this and the FACTS are out there for you..

you are trying to continue a lie..

Ffs fella get a grip...

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

Did you read my second sentence or stop dead at the first and hit 'Reply'?

I am not sure what difference it makes which bit I read and quoted as all of it will get the same comment from me.

This also applys to the next time you posted.

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Hillsborough was more than suitable for high profile matches, the problem arose when the person responsible for policing in previous matches was replaced by someone with little or no experience of how to deal with such an event."

Hillsborough was not a suitable venue for high profile matches. The independent report clearly states that the crush barriers were not up to the minimum required health and safety standard. The report also found (after trawling through over 400,000 documents) that there is NO evidence that ticketless fans are in any way responsible for the tragedy. In fact, there is NO evidence found that there were any ticketless fans in the ground.

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By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

"A very dignified & sincere apology from Mr Cameronthey want more than a apology it was thatcher who ordered the whole cover up"

i never realised that mrs thatcher organised it all!,what page in the report does that appear?.

i know scousers are all red rag trade union labour supporters but why bring mrs thatcher into it?,she is not a football supporter is she?.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

That accusation has been doing the rounds for ages, namely because she was Prime Minister then.

As for the apologies.....after 23 years they seem worthless.....it would have been much better for the families if there hadn't been such a cover up and they had the apologies not long after it happened, then they wouldn't have had to put up with so many lies for too many years.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"A very dignified & sincere apology from Mr Cameronthey want more than a apology it was thatcher who ordered the whole cover up

i never realised that mrs thatcher organised it all!,what page in the report does that appear?.

i know scousers are all red rag trade union labour supporters but why bring mrs thatcher into it?,she is not a football supporter is she?."

look at where the guy who said that is from?

as for red rag blah blah, that comrade edwina currie eh..

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By *phroditeWoman over a year ago

(She/ her) in Sensualityland

I cannot begin to imagine how I would feel if that had been a member of my family. Knowing what it known now, and I am not ever advocating revenge, I am sure I would find it very hard to forgive the cover up and the lies.

I so empathise with the families.

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By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

"A very dignified & sincere apology from Mr Cameronthey want more than a apology it was thatcher who ordered the whole cover up

i never realised that mrs thatcher organised it all!,what page in the report does that appear?.

i know scousers are all red rag trade union labour supporters but why bring mrs thatcher into it?,she is not a football supporter is she?.

look at where the guy who said that is from?

as for red rag blah blah, that comrade edwina currie eh.."

the point being????

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"A very dignified & sincere apology from Mr Cameronthey want more than a apology it was thatcher who ordered the whole cover up

i never realised that mrs thatcher organised it all!,what page in the report does that appear?.

i know scousers are all red rag trade union labour supporters but why bring mrs thatcher into it?,she is not a football supporter is she?.

look at where the guy who said that is from?

as for red rag blah blah, that comrade edwina currie eh..

the point being????"

would hazard a guess that 'stevieyorks' is not a scouser, either a 'red rag trade union labour supporter' or not..

think it was his way of saying 'they', (being people from Liverpool affected by the disaster) want thatcher to be held responsible..

to be fair it was poorly worded by him..

my edwina currie comment was in response to your generalisation that 'scousers' are all red rag...etc etc...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Its appalling at how much was coved up seeing the reports. I am still amazed if not a little disgusted some people still want to blame the fans attending the match. It will be interesting to see if prosecutions take place as they should but they may decide too long has passed.

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By *bbandflowCouple over a year ago

South Devon

And again. it goes on with people blaming the fans, even after the report came out yesterday and told exactly the truth.

Did you read my second sentence or stop dead at the first and hit 'Reply'?

just what is your issue Wishy, you are wrong on this and the FACTS are out there for you..

you are trying to continue a lie..

Ffs fella get a grip...

I suppose some find it difficult to accept that in a country such as ours where the rule of law, underpins our way of life, to admit that such an organised level of corruptness existed in institutions we hold dear is impossible to comprehend.

I would argue it took 23 years, but we got there in the end.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

I would argue it took 23 years, but we got there in the end."

some will do so for those and other reasons, some borne out of less simplistic ideals and belief in 'the system'..

still a way to go but a very important step was taken yesterday..

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By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

look at where the guy who said that is from?

as for red rag blah blah, that comrade edwina currie eh..

the point being????

would hazard a guess that 'stevieyorks' is not a scouser, either a 'red rag trade union labour supporter' or not..

think it was his way of saying 'they', (being people from Liverpool affected by the disaster) want thatcher to be held responsible..

to be fair it was poorly worded by him..

my edwina currie comment was in response to your generalisation that 'scousers' are all red rag...etc etc...

oh i see!,sorry for jumping in there.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

look at where the guy who said that is from?

as for red rag blah blah, that comrade edwina currie eh..

the point being????

would hazard a guess that 'stevieyorks' is not a scouser, either a 'red rag trade union labour supporter' or not..

think it was his way of saying 'they', (being people from Liverpool affected by the disaster) want thatcher to be held responsible..

to be fair it was poorly worded by him..

my edwina currie comment was in response to your generalisation that 'scousers' are all red rag...etc etc...

oh i see!,sorry for jumping in there.

np m8..

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By *els_BellsWoman over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

"Its appalling at how much was coved up seeing the reports. I am still amazed if not a little disgusted some people still want to blame the fans attending the match. It will be interesting to see if prosecutions take place as they should but they may decide too long has passed. "
.

It is appauling and disgusting what has been covered up for 23 years. And here's hoping to justice now the truth is out.

The Thatcher comments, well she is almost as welcome in Liverpool as that evil c*!t Mackenzie, (oh sorry, c*!ts are useful. He's only useful to sit on top of my bonfire!).

It does make me laugh a bit that Straw has come out slagging people off when he had the position of Home Secretary he was asked to re open the Hillsborough disaster, but he refused.

As for those who want to still accuse the fans, well as the saying goes, some cant see the woods for the trees. Even though their beloved Scum Paper has retracted/apologsed (again) today!

Funny how 12 months previous to the disaster of Hillsborough there wasnt as many casualties or even any deaths, which was ran by an experienced crowd control officer, but 12 months after a massive game was handed to some disgusting, lying scummy individual who saw no fault in his stupid murderous actions, and yes, they were murderous!

As for Heysel, thats a totally different kettle of fish and anyone who knows about football, or is even a PROPER football fan KNOWS and can see the difference between the two.

RIP the 96, the truth is out, lets get the justice deserved!

As for the ones still blaming the fans, try reading a bit of the report/news or even Cameron's apology from yesterday.

I would never wish for Hillsborough to happen to any other club, even on my own worst enemies!

JUSTICE FOR THE 96 YNWA xx

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I hope the people responsible are brought to justice and they are not just stripped of there titles or honour. Prison could and should be looming for those who changed there statements.

Funny but if this was posted in the Scotland forum there would be an out cry that it has nothing to do with swinging or shagging!

I hope the families get what they need to lay to rest the horrors.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"'Ticketless' fans didnt cause the crush The police caused the crush. The stand capacity was 10100 there is a top estimate that the number of fans was 10124."

Ah, yes, of course, the police stood at the back and pushed everyone into the pens didn't they? Silly me.

The fans at the back tried to push their way into the stands in their desperation to get in to see the match. The police are guilty of poor crowd control but they did NOT push the fans in.

Some people need to remove their rose-coloured goggles and realise that everyone involved in the events that day carry some burden of blame: The fans for pushing, the stewards for poor directing, the police for inadequate crowd control, the emergency services for failing to react once the tradegy began unfolding, the ground itself for it's poor signs telling fans where to go.

The lies, covers-ups and misreporting after the event are all secondary to the event itself and could not have prevented the disaster from happening and it's clear that there are two separate issues here: the disaster itself and what happened in the aftermath of it. The police acted inefficiently in the former and appallingly in the latter. The fans had a hand in the tragedy but not in the lies. Liverpool FC also must also bear some of the brunt of responsibility as they could have easily issued a directive appealing for fans without tickets not to head to Hillsborough (on the day of the match, both radio and television advised that supporters without tickets should not attend).

Another contributing factor was roadworks on the M62 which caused delays in Liverpool fans getting to the stadium, the result of which led to fans trying desperately to get in before the match started. How simple it would have been for local FA officials at the stadium to delay the start by half an hour and announce it outside to the waiting fans still trying to get in. Had THAT happened the crush could have been prevented, the pressure on the stewards would have relieved somewhat and 96 people wouldn't have perished. Possibly.

It was a crowd of people thinking only of getting to see a football match that led to this disaster. A crowd of people too desperate to consider the safety of themselves and people already inside. And the South Yorks Police for failing to realise that.

In 1989 the 'establishment' closed ranks to try and protect itself, in 2012 the 'establishment' sacrificed it's former employees to protect itself.

Mark my words, no prosecutions will ever be brought against anyone for the Hillsborough Disaster.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

were there too many people in that stand?

I know the gates were locked onto the pitch due to the Hiesel problem.

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"'Ticketless' fans didnt cause the crush The police caused the crush. The stand capacity was 10100 there is a top estimate that the number of fans was 10124.

Ah, yes, of course, the police stood at the back and pushed everyone into the pens didn't they? Silly me.

The fans at the back tried to push their way into the stands in their desperation to get in to see the match. The police are guilty of poor crowd control but they did NOT push the fans in.

In 1989 the 'establishment' closed ranks to try and protect itself, in 2012 the 'establishment' sacrificed it's former employees to protect itself.

Mark my words, no prosecutions will ever be brought against anyone for the Hillsborough Disaster. "

Wishy, I have stood back and watched this debate unfold over the last couple of days on here. Some people don't believe that Hitler's regime were responsible for the systamatic gassing of the Jews and others, despite the evidence to the contary. You and possibly others continue to believe that the Hillsborough disaster was in part caused by ticketless fans, despite evidence to the contary.

First lets address that issue face on. There probably was Liverpool and Nottingham Forest fans in Sheffield that day without tickets, but to blame them for any part of the disaster is wrong, because they weren't involved in it.

At the time, the biggest noticable difference between the 1988 and 1989 semi final in the Leppings Lane area was the lack of police controlling the crowds, the previous year to get near the turnstiles you had to have a ticket for that area of the ground, in 1989 no such Police lines existed. Now your likely to say because it's been your mantra that means ticketless fans were now by the turnstiles, but those police lines eased congestion by holding people back if a bottle neck built up in the enclosed space by the turnstiles, thus preventing crushing building up.

It wasn't a case of fans arriving late to the game, though it is probably true that some arrived later than the previous year due to traffic roadwork problems in Manchester and on the designated route of the M62/M1. There were 7 turnstiles designated to allow access onto the Leppings Lane terraces. The HSE report into the disaster dated 1st February 1990 states in section 8.4 that to enable the capacity of 10,100 to be achieved if the turnstiles were working at there maximum rate of admission which was 702 people per turnstile per hour, the HSE calculated that people would need to enter the ground at that rate continously from before 1pm (when the turnstiles actually opened) to fill the capacity for that section of the ground. The actual average rate of admission measured by the HSE was 660 people per turnstile per hour and at that rate the people wouldn't get into the ground until 3.40pm, or in other words half time.

What this shows is that the build up outside the turnstiles was a combination of lack of turnstiles to get people into the ground in time within the window slot that the turnstiles were open and that lack of police crowd control allowed a dangerous crush to develop in the area of the turnstiles. Once you got into this crush you couldn't get out, a bit like a riptide pulling a swimmer out to sea. In addition, people had to get past these turnstiles in a confined corridor to access turnstiles down the side of the pitch and those people added to the congestion and bottle neck.

The Larger Exit Gate C was opened 3 times on the command of Duckinfield, the first time for about 30 seconds at 2.48pm allowing between 130 and 180 people in, the 2nd time at 2.52pm for about 5 minutes and 30 seconds allowing between 2000 to 2200 people to enter and the 3rd opening about 1 minute later allowing between 90 and 100 people in single file only to enter the stadium over a period of 8 minutes.

Within moments of the disaster happening, and almost before any rescue attempts Duckinfield told Graham Kelly of The FA that ticketless, d*unken fans had forced the gates, the first lie in the cover up, and thats why, perhaps despite evidence to the contray, you still claim LFC and LFC fans without tickets were a contributory cause of the disaster.

You have been fed lies for many years, now you yourself are continuing to peddle them despite everything, and most especially since the Hillsbough Independant Panel report and the PM stating in Camerons own words "It's not grey, it's in black and white, the Liverpool fans were not to blame for The Hillsborough Disaster"

For me personally the most shocking part of the report was that 41 of the 96 might have been saved. Every time I see or hear the names of the 96 read out I look at the gap where my surname which starts "Ch" or my friends which start "Mo" or "Wy" would have fitted in and thank my lucky stars that we are all alive and well today, so that I can debate with people like yourself and try to correct the false impression that you have.

As Spock might have said Live Long & Prosper Wishy, but please get your facts straight about Hillsborough and stop continuing this deeply offensive approach of suggesting that innocent people were in anyway involved in the deaths and injuries of their fellow fans.

Mark

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"were there too many people in that stand?

I know the gates were locked onto the pitch due to the Hiesel problem."

Gandi, in terms of official capacity, the stand was rated at 10,100 and the HSE count of the people in the stand at the time the disaster is recorded as happening ie.3.06pm was between 9267 and 10124 with a best estimate of 9734 in the ground at the time the disaster started.

The gates weren't locked because of Heysal, though that will probably have played a part in the thinking, they were locked because of the general fear of pitch invasions by gans of many clubs and countries over the previous 15 years of so, eg Scotland at Wembley, Millwall at Luton, Man Utd against Man City to name but a few. Off memory I can't actually think of a time when LFC fans invaded the pitch, though I'll fully acceptwe had our share of trouble makers.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

"'Ticketless' fans didnt cause the crush The police caused the crush. The stand capacity was 10100 there is a top estimate that the number of fans was 10124.

Ah, yes, of course, the police stood at the back and pushed everyone into the pens didn't they? Silly me.

The fans at the back tried to push their way into the stands in their desperation to get in to see the match. The police are guilty of poor crowd control but they did NOT push the fans in.

. "

They didn't have to push , they were being let in by the police ....into two pens that were already full. The two outside pens where half empty, if you actually look at any of the evidence and the footage at the time you will see this....if they hearded them into the outside pens we probably wouldn't be having the conversation of a police cover up.

The reports that have come out do mention it wasn't ticketless fans who caused the problem, it was the police losing control and cocking up.

It is a shame you still want to keep repeating the lies that were part of the cover up and I personaly can't understand why you are doing this other than you can't admit to being wrong even faced with the evidence which you could find if you wanted to.

Thats up to you obviously......but I think maybe look at the EVIDENCE objectivly and you might find what everyone else is looking at.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

herded *

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

I have to be honest though, I remember the headlines of the Sun at that time and know why people boycotted it.....but where they just fed what the police wanted them to be fed to help the cover up?

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"I have to be honest though, I remember the headlines of the Sun at that time and know why people boycotted it.....but where they just fed what the police wanted them to be fed to help the cover up?"

Well Rugby, The S*n wasn't the only newspaper to run the article, the Daily Star ran it prominently too and some broadsheets mentioned it too, but none gave the story the profile or the headline that The S*n did, in addition The Star retracted the story within 24 to 48 hours.

Interestingly, The Daily Mirror recieved the same news item as The S*n did from the same news agency. Thier editor got his 5 news reporters in Sheffield & Liverpool to check it out for themselves, before rejecting the story as not having a good enough credibility to it. I can't remember The Mirrors exact headline, but it was soemthing like Liverpool fans angered at reports of violence to Police, abusing and robbing the dead etc. In effect their story put the report out there for all to see but balanced it, unlike McKenzie who did what he did and then apologised way too late, in a self serving and meaningless way.

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By *ove2-shareCouple over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"I'm a mad Liverpool fan but it don't matter what club you support we all come together as one at times like this

Finally the truth what we all knew deep down has finally come out

JFT96 Angels

YNWA

I'm a true blue, grew up in the shadows of goodison and anfield and this is something that has cut deep throughout the city for many many years, no matter what colour you support.

YNWA"

Well said this wasnt just a tragedy for LFC but for the entire city many families have members who are blue and ones that are red, and many everton fans too will hav e lost loved ones.

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

"'Ticketless' fans didnt cause the crush The police caused the crush. The stand capacity was 10100 there is a top estimate that the number of fans was 10124.

Ah, yes, of course, the police stood at the back and pushed everyone into the pens didn't they? Silly me.

The fans at the back tried to push their way into the stands in their desperation to get in to see the match. The police are guilty of poor crowd control but they did NOT push the fans in.

In 1989 the 'establishment' closed ranks to try and protect itself, in 2012 the 'establishment' sacrificed it's former employees to protect itself.

Mark my words, no prosecutions will ever be brought against anyone for the Hillsborough Disaster.

Mark"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

RIP the 96 from all us Port Vale n Stoke City fans, justice at last!

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

"I have to be honest though, I remember the headlines of the Sun at that time and know why people boycotted it.....but where they just fed what the police wanted them to be fed to help the cover up?

Ah thanks for that....it explains it well.

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By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

have seen mckenzie on this morning tv show re_iewing the news a few times over past few years and he does come over as the type you would hate for sure!.

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By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

"Well said this wasnt just a tragedy for LFC but for the entire city many families have members who are blue and ones that are red, and many everton fans too will hav e lost loved ones. "

too true!,my mothers side of family came from liverpool and whenever the baggies were playing in liverpool whether it be versus everton or liverpool all would unite,IT AFFECTS ALL.

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By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

It does make me laugh a bit that Straw has come out slagging people off when he had the position of Home Secretary he was asked to re open the Hillsborough disaster, but he refused.

thats jack(the man of)straw for you!,weak as a scarecrow in the breeze he is!,never strong enough to have been home sec and now he has been out of the limelight for some 2 years is just trying to jump on the bandwagon & see his name in the papers.

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

"Well said this wasnt just a tragedy for LFC but for the entire city many families have members who are blue and ones that are red, and many everton fans too will hav e lost loved ones.

too true!,my mothers side of family came from liverpool and whenever the baggies were playing in liverpool whether it be versus everton or liverpool all would unite,IT AFFECTS ALL."

LOL Lucky Lads, steady on there. It's true we stand as one as a city and I've been there with reds and blues together chanting Merseyside. It's also true that the Blues have in the main been supportive of the reds over the years becasue many know someone who either lost a family member, had someone injured or simply had someone who was at the game that day.

However, as for supporting The Bluenoses when they play someone else, no chance unless it happens to be of direct benefit to LFC, the best result for EFC is a defeat and just enough points to stay up so we can beat them twice next season too.

And for anyone cruel enough to point out where both teams are at thisearly atge of the season, thats simply because your reading the table upside down....

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By *ove2-shareCouple over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

"'Ticketless' fans didnt cause the crush The police caused the crush. The stand capacity was 10100 there is a top estimate that the number of fans was 10124.

Ah, yes, of course, the police stood at the back and pushed everyone into the pens didn't they? Silly me.

The fans at the back tried to push their way into the stands in their desperation to get in to see the match. The police are guilty of poor crowd control but they did NOT push the fans in.

In 1989 the 'establishment' closed ranks to try and protect itself, in 2012 the 'establishment' sacrificed it's former employees to protect itself.

Mark my words, no prosecutions will ever be brought against anyone for the Hillsborough Disaster. "

If you ever do any FOH/door supervisor or security training (and its quite clear you havent) then you will learn that crowds move in peculiar ways, with the exeption of some on the perifery they will tend to move as a group single mindedly unless directed,either heading towards thier destination, or in the case of a disaster such as a fire they are likely to all try to escape via the same entrance they came in even if the closest exit is nearby, this natural crowd behaviour was acontributary factor in another football disaster at Bradford

where a fire excape was blocked.

the essence of good crowd management, is good pre planning, adequate, provision of well signed entrance and exits.Adequate staffing clear throughways monitored and maintained. simple clear consitant direction from steward/police based upon good training, communication and good judgement.

If any of these elements are amiss then there the potential dangers are huge.

It is those running and organising and event (including security) that are responsible for maintaining the smooth flow of a crowd, and in this case it is clear that the provision was not adequate, the commander was incompetant, had no back up plan and by opening and shutting the gate repeatedly, inevitabley caused surges. Comunication was also poor, there are a whole raft of contributing factors but it is quite clear that the crowd behaved in a manner which is to be expected given the way they were managed, I cannot stress this enough, absolutely no blame can be apportioned to the crowd.

I have seen countless cases of good and bad crowd management and so many many things could and should have been done to avoid this but nothing any individual in the crowd could have done would have stopped this tragedy, Its great that the truth is finally out, and sad that some still cant hear it, but whats really needed now is a crimonal investigation into the obvious conspiracy to pervert justice, that took place and less of the misplaced finger pointing at the crowd.

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By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

"Well said this wasnt just a tragedy for LFC but for the entire city many families have members who are blue and ones that are red, and many everton fans too will hav e lost loved ones.

too true!,my mothers side of family came from liverpool and whenever the baggies were playing in liverpool whether it be versus everton or liverpool all would unite,IT AFFECTS ALL.

And for anyone cruel enough to point out where both teams are at thisearly atge of the season, thats simply because your reading the table upside down....

lol, i did not say that!,my family the red & the blue get together to meet us baggies in a pub after the match and talk football.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It does make me laugh a bit that Straw has come out slagging people off when he had the position of Home Secretary he was asked to re open the Hillsborough disaster, but he refused.

The only bandwagon Jack Straw is jumping on is the 'Protect yer own arse' one. He 'could' be accused of having been negligent in not re-opening the enquiry or doing what the Bishops Panel has now done (in getting disclosure of all the documents) himself. He won't be the only one. There is a string of people who had it in their power to look at the Hilsborough Enquiry findings again and asking themselves the question "What if the 'accepted' version ISN'T true...????".

But like many others, my former boss didn't..... Shame on them. Still, they will have to deal with their own consciences, but that's the reality you take on when you seek high office...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

mark next time you come to atlantis, would love talk to you over this issue

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By *ucky_LadsCouple (MM) over a year ago

Kidderminster+ surrounding areas.

"The only bandwagon Jack Straw is jumping on is the 'Protect yer own arse' one. He 'could' be accused of having been negligent in not re-opening the enquiry or doing what the Bishops Panel has now done (in getting disclosure of all the documents) himself. He won't be the only one. There is a string of people who had it in their power to look at the Hilsborough Enquiry findings again and asking themselves the question "What if the 'accepted' version ISN'T true...????".

But like many others, my former boss didn't..... Shame on them. Still, they will have to deal with their own consciences, but that's the reality you take on when you seek high office...

EXACTLY!,jack is looking after himself and deflecting any blame as quickly as he can!,he had plenty of time & chances to re-open the case and instigate investigation,attack is the best defence in this case and jack jumps in to cover his own arse.

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By *nJ_NW_cplCouple over a year ago

wirral

Still can’t believe that after all that has been said there are still people saying that the supporters had a hand in this. Obviously some people here know more than panel who have read 450,000 pages of evidence. The supporters were where the police had put them and they did NOTHING wrong. Please if you have evidence to the contrary let us all in on it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

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By *els_BellsWoman over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

"'Ticketless' fans didnt cause the crush The police caused the crush. The stand capacity was 10100 there is a top estimate that the number of fans was 10124.

Ah, yes, of course, the police stood at the back and pushed everyone into the pens didn't they? Silly me.

The fans at the back tried to push their way into the stands in their desperation to get in to see the match. The police are guilty of poor crowd control but they did NOT push the fans in.

In 1989 the 'establishment' closed ranks to try and protect itself, in 2012 the 'establishment' sacrificed it's former employees to protect itself.

Mark my words, no prosecutions will ever be brought against anyone for the Hillsborough Disaster. "

Wishy, have you read any of the report or even heard David Cameron's speech or even read your beloved red top?

I know you will probably want to avoid to agree that the fans were NOT to blame, but even Boris Johnson has apologised (again) for his stupid comments in the Spectator from a few years ago. Maggie Cameron, oops I mead David Cameron, has apologised and mentioned many times it had nothing to do with "ticketlessness".

If Boris and Dave can admit they were wrong, surely you can see it too! You arent an unintelligent man from what I have read from your prev posts and appear to read a lot about things to support your _iews, but surely you havent been hiding out in bin laden's old caves the past few days?

As for Whistler, again, please read the report/news etc and you will see for yourself.

Here's to justice, even though its taken far too long!

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By *els_BellsWoman over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

It does make me laugh a bit that Straw has come out slagging people off when he had the position of Home Secretary he was asked to re open the Hillsborough disaster, but he refused.

Exactly! I need a lie down, I defended Maggie! I will never be able to return to liverpool ever again

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Wishy, have you read any of the report or even heard David Cameron's speech or even read your beloved red top?

Let's look at this laterally shall we. Theresa May holds the office of Home Secretary and has the final say in whether the Hillsborough case warranted a further inquest. Liverpool is a Labour stronghold. A result such as the one we've witnessed this week does the Tories little damage in Merseyside but when the next round of election campaigning starts which candidate will be able to say "Our party permitted an inquest into Hillsborough, where Labour wouldn't/didn't when they were in power."

An apology from Cameron isn't the Tory Party holding their hands up and saying, "it was our fault," it is a sitting Prime Minister apologising for the system in 1989 - and subsequent governments since then - for failing the families of those affected by Hillsborough, and the sacrificial lambs who have been thrown to the wolves are the police superintendents who were in charge on that horrific day, and who have now retired and cannot be prosecuted.

The Independent Panel featured some people with strong connections to Liverpool and were picked for that reason, I suspect. The govt WANTED this result. It is political manoevering at it's most sublime as the govt could not lose anything in Liverpool by allowing another inquest and you can bet your bottom dollar that govt mandarins would have crawled all over those previously unseen documents before giving this inquest the go ahead. Why Jack Straw didn't see it is beyond me, maybe he wasn't very good at his job.

But, that aside, the police still didn't push those fans into the pens, they did that all by themselves.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

Unbelievable...simply unbelieveable.

BUT, I suppose you have to accept that sometimes people will stick with something that has been proved wrong just so they don't have to admit to being wrong....I accept this and will now go bang my head against a brick wall as it is much easier

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Unbelievable...simply unbelieveable.

Hundreds of years ago people said the world was flat. Saying it didn't make it so.

Saying the fans didn't cause the crush doesn't make it so either. What I find unbelievable is how it is so difficult to understand that a bunch of people crushed in a crowd is down to the crowd crushing them. Sure, it can be argued that some people are like sheep and will go wherever they are herded and it's down the shepherd to make sure they go where he wants them to go - but they still have to move their feet and go there, don't they?

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By *rumalexMan over a year ago

Birmingham

"Wishy, have you read any of the report or even heard David Cameron's speech or even read your beloved red top?

But, that aside, the police still didn't push those fans into the pens, they did that all by themselves."

wishy the enquiry was started bt the labour party in 2009 not the cons

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"wishy the enquiry was started bt the labour party in 2009 not the cons

I think you'll find the re_iew process began in 2010. Under a Tory led coalition govt.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

I am not really into discussing the politics of it all and who will gain from it ....I just like the thought the truth has come out. It is 23 years too late though.

Being pedantic about people walking is a bit of a weak comment to be honest but I will answer anyway.

No one could have walked down any tunnel if a bumbling idiot of a man in charge didn't order the gates to be opened, but you don't seem to want to accept the findings.

That is up to you...but I always had you down as standing up for the truth and facts....you seem to be having trouble digesting these ones or is it that you just don't want to.

I am sure there will still be loads of people about in the country who won't accept the findings as they have been fed lies for years or because they are not interested in the truth as it doesn't suit.

I am sure the families can live with that now as all that matters is the truth was told and the people involved are now hanging their heads in shame....that must be a bit of a comfort for the families.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Is it just me or do others find some of the twisted comments repulsive and unbelievable? Sorry but people died as a result of the people organising the event failing to provide adequate provision for safety. Is scoring points so important or do people really have no shame at their actions.

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By *nJ_NW_cplCouple over a year ago

wirral

There are people on here who would not believe God if he came down and spoke to them as it wouldn’t fit their perception of the people of Liverpool. Let them have their ridiculous _iews and bigoted ideas. At the end of the day their thoughts are irrelevant.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I am not really into discussing the politics of it all and who will gain from it ....I just like the thought the truth has come out. It is 23 years too late though.

Being pedantic about people walking is a bit of a weak comment to be honest but I will answer anyway.

No one could have walked down any tunnel if a bumbling idiot of a man in charge didn't order the gates to be opened, but you don't seem to want to accept the findings.

That is up to you...but I always had you down as standing up for the truth and facts....you seem to be having trouble digesting these ones or is it that you just don't want to.

Ruggers, I accept the findings in so much as yes, there was a catastrophic breakdown in policing. Yes, Dickenfields ordered the gate to be opened to relive the crush at the turnstiles outside the ground, and the effect of his actions simply transferred the crush from outside (where it would have eventually become manageable) to inside the stand where it very quickly spiralled out of control. I accept all that.

What I don't accept is the notion that the fans themselves were not responsible for trying to get into a stadium that simply couldn't admit them fast enough. I've been in crowd crushes at football stadiums and all it takes is a few idiots to give a good shove from the back and keep shoving and those in front of them have nowhere to go other than forwards, and like a domino-effect those further ahead push forward themselves.

Opening that gate allowed them to surge forward and cause crushing elsewhere other than where they were. You can't hold back a crowd determined to move forward, but yes, they should have been managed properly, and I still think they match should have been delayed by an hour, or half an hour at least, and then relay that to the fans outside so they'd stop pushing.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

edit ** relieve the crush

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

Sorry Wishy, you really need to go study the footage and read the evidence and if it helps _iew it as if it was Man U fans in there instead of Liverpool ones.

If you had indeed been to football matches then you would know how things work if the Police want you to go a certain way...you don't have a choice anyway. ( I can speak from experience on this too )

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

For those not around at the time the police were used as a private army by the then thatcher government and no one should be suprised about the cover up. Disgusted yes suprised no.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Sorry Wishy, you really need to go study the footage and read the evidence and if it helps _iew it as if it was Man U fans in there instead of Liverpool ones.

If you had indeed been to football matches then you would know how things work if the Police want you to go a certain way...you don't have a choice anyway. ( I can speak from experience on this too )"

I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one. I have my opinion on how a crowd moves and you have a different _iew, yet we've both had experiences of it. I don't think either of us are wrong but in the context of this debate, yes the police should have handled a milling crowd (I won't use the word 'surging') much better than they did.

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By *emmefataleWoman over a year ago

dirtybigbadsgirlville

"Sorry Wishy, you really need to go study the footage and read the evidence and if it helps _iew it as if it was Man U fans in there instead of Liverpool ones.

Needless to say i hope those responsible are brought to justice

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Sorry Wishy, you really need to go study the footage and read the evidence and if it helps _iew it as if it was Man U fans in there instead of Liverpool ones.

As someone who regularly attends matches and not watch from an armchair that's true even today the police can be rough but back then they were at times brutal anyone fan who actually attends would realise this.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"As someone who regularly attends matches and not watch from an armchair that's true even today the police can be rough but back then they were at times brutal anyone fan who actually attends would realise this. "

I can't say I've ever felt brutalised by the police when I've gone to watch a match. I've seen forceful handling of a crowd to prevent exactly the kind of thing that happened at Hillsborough, but they weren't brutal about it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Is it just me or do others find some of the twisted comments repulsive and unbelievable? Sorry but people died as a result of the people organising the event failing to provide adequate provision for safety. Is scoring points so important or do people really have no shame at their actions."

I'd agree totally but you have some who will think black is white and take pleasure in pushing the fact. Unpleasant, and not dissimilar to the holocaust deniers even when the evidence is there to see but they will still do it through inconsonance sadly.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

finally the truth but what a length of time to wait what we all knew was the truth.

Was not there but saw it on the news and in the papers and knew of a few who had relatives hurt in the incident.

I had tears in my eyes when i heard the conclusion of the report and seeing the pictures on the news.

I am a blue but on that day my heart went out to those families of the 96 who lost their lives on what should have been a normal day at the match.

Justice has finally been done RIP

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I wouldn't quite go that far but you would avoid taking kids to matches in the 80's. I know we had family members who were assaulted by the police and you look back at the baton charges in the news and they were a regular occurrence. People who don't attend matches only see clips on the tv and have no real insight into how people were and still are at times treated like cattle.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"finally the truth but what a length of time to wait what we all knew was the truth.

Was not there but saw it on the news and in the papers and knew of a few who had relatives hurt in the incident.

I had tears in my eyes when i heard the conclusion of the report and seeing the pictures on the news.

I am a blue but on that day my heart went out to those families of the 96 who lost their lives on what should have been a normal day at the match.

Justice has finally been done RIP"

I don't know if we have actually seen justice yet that maybe to come if we get criminal prosecutions. What I do know is the people responsible for spreading lies will in most cases.

at least the truth has surfaced for the families.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

wishy the enquiry was started bt the labour party in 2009 not the cons

Yes...I think the Independant panel was set up in April 2009 and they began examining papers in February 2010...which was before Cameron took office.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"finally the truth but what a length of time to wait what we all knew was the truth.

Was not there but saw it on the news and in the papers and knew of a few who had relatives hurt in the incident.

I had tears in my eyes when i heard the conclusion of the report and seeing the pictures on the news.

I am a blue but on that day my heart went out to those families of the 96 who lost their lives on what should have been a normal day at the match.

Justice has finally been done RIP

I don't know if we have actually seen justice yet that maybe to come if we get criminal prosecutions. What I do know is the people responsible for spreading lies will in most cases.

at least the truth has surfaced for the families. "

apologies it is not justice has been done but the truth finally out.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

wishy the enquiry was started bt the labour party in 2009 not the cons

Yes...I think the Independant panel was set up in April 2009 and they began examining papers in February 2010...which was before Cameron took office."

I stand corrected, it was December 2009 that Home Sec Alan Johnson announced the formation of the Hillsborough Independent Panel.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"finally the truth but what a length of time to wait what we all knew was the truth.

Was not there but saw it on the news and in the papers and knew of a few who had relatives hurt in the incident.

I had tears in my eyes when i heard the conclusion of the report and seeing the pictures on the news.

I am a blue but on that day my heart went out to those families of the 96 who lost their lives on what should have been a normal day at the match.

Justice has finally been done RIP

I don't know if we have actually seen justice yet that maybe to come if we get criminal prosecutions. What I do know is the people responsible for spreading lies will in most cases.

at least the truth has surfaced for the families.

apologies it is not justice has been done but the truth finally out. "

Well you feel for the families and fingers crossed the right result will prevail.

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By *els_BellsWoman over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

wishy the enquiry was started bt the labour party in 2009 not the cons

Yes...I think the Independant panel was set up in April 2009 and they began examining papers in February 2010...which was before Cameron took office."

Andy Burnham (labour MP) promised the re_iew on the 20th anniversary service, and told all football fans that they would get to the truth.

Try looking at the facts as I have said far too many times.

As for blaming the fans, they were herded into one pen. Yes ONE pen!

In 1988, police officers stopped Liverpool fans walking towards the ground to ensure they had tickets, and allowed them on their way to a calm, 3 way turnstial access point. In 1989, no police officers were on the route to Lepings Lane, to stop ticketless fans, as this was not seen as an issue, and is still not seen as an issue 23 years on. The police herded fans into 1 pen. As soon as the gate was opened there was only ONE way to go, and had nothing to do with those at the back, it was the police forcing them in. There were at least two other 'pens' half empty.

Have you ever been or even seen the pictures of Leppings Lane? Nah doubt it from those red glasses you have on!

I know you dont like Liverpool or its fans, but ffs just LOOK at the facts!

If you had been on the panel and looked at the 450,000 ages of evidence and still said, "yep, the fans were to blame" then fair enough, but I believe you were not on the independant panel.

Try seeing what david cameron or even Mckenzie has said, and maybe, just maybe you will see you are way off the mark.

Have the graciousness to admit YOU are WRONG, just as others have admitted to being wrong.

I honestly do not know why you have such a feud against LFC or its fans, but imagine if this was about the Munich Air Disaster.... I could, if I was as shallow minded as you, turn round and say, "well why the fuck didnt one of the players know how to fly a plane??? They were all men, so it should just be automatic?" Or maybe they had too much luggage and that brought the plane down?

Those examples of the Munich disaster have as much truth behind them as you blaming ticketless fans for causing Hillsborough.

How come it didnt happen in April '88? Oh thats right, its cos someone who knew their arse from their elbow knew how to deal with football crowds even though the stadium was reported by many that it was unsafe.

Do your self a favour Wishy, read up on the actual facts and not what YOU want to believe!

P.S. if this happened at Old Trafford and you were there, would you like your 10 year old being tested for alcohol or even checked on the Police National Computer! Wake up and see the actual FACTS, they are NATIONAL not just for LFC they are countrywide and there to protect football fans.

Just wake up and smell the truth, even if it is so bitter to you!

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By *els_BellsWoman over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

wishy the enquiry was started bt the labour party in 2009 not the cons

Yes...I think the Independant panel was set up in April 2009 and they began examining papers in February 2010...which was before Cameron took office.

I stand corrected, it was December 2009 that Home Sec Alan Johnson announced the formation of the Hillsborough Independent Panel."

Which was brought up by over 100,000 people who signed the ePetition to get it brought up after Andy Burnham promised at the memorial that things would be looked into. Hence the PM's thanks to his RT hon Member Mr Burnham on Wednesday.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

would you like your 10 year old being tested for alcohol or even checked on the Police National Computer! "

These were things that happened AFTER the disaster, and yes, I wholeheartedly condemn the way the police lied and covered up their failings. But it still has nothing at all to do with HOW the disaster happened.

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By *els_BellsWoman over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

would you like your 10 year old being tested for alcohol or even checked on the Police National Computer!

Ok I get you condemming the police et al for the cover up. But have you actually read the facts that "ticketlessness" was not to blame?

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By *ove2-shareCouple over a year ago

South Gloucestershire

I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one. I have my opinion on how a crowd moves and you have a different _iew,

And what is your _iew based on as it is counter to all the evidence that has come out? evidence which is in line with current training on crowd managament, seems to me you are having to agree to disagree with an awful lot of people here without much to back you up.

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By *els_BellsWoman over a year ago

with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc

I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one. I have my opinion on how a crowd moves and you have a different _iew,

"
.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

would you like your 10 year old being tested for alcohol or even checked on the Police National Computer!

tbh i think you need to look at the facts in detail, looking at how the 2 'pens' we all ready over capacity due to poor crowd control, the police inside knew this but had not communicated with the police outside

the police outside were unaware of the conjestion inside and opens the gate to ease the crown conjestion, pushing fans into the tunnels and into the already over capacity pens.

Again read the full report, fans were not late to the game, there was not a mass of unticketed fans.

Also on the report you will see similar problems with Hillsborough in FA games prior to 89, which led to no semi's being held there for 7 years, in previous instances crashing occured but fans were not penned in, they could move side to side to escape. The pens were put in place and not safety inspection took place.

If you wish to blame the fans then do so....but i suggest you read the full report

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

would you like your 10 year old being tested for alcohol or even checked on the Police National Computer!

Ok I get you condemming the police et al for the cover up. But have you actually read the facts that "ticketlessness" was not to blame?

If there wasn't ticketless fans there why was there an appeal issued that morning for ticketless fans to stay away? I'm sure some would have heeded that appeal, but a lot wouldn't, and those with tickets would have made sure they left themselves plenty of time to get there, get in, get themselves settled and enjoy the match - that's what I do.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

would you like your 10 year old being tested for alcohol or even checked on the Police National Computer!

the police outside were unaware of the conjestion inside and opens the gate to ease the crown conjestion, pushing fans into the tunnels and into the already over capacity pens.

Again read the full report, fans were not late to the game, there was not a mass of unticketed fans.

If you wish to blame the fans then do so....but i suggest you read the full report"

These deficiencies were well known and further overcrowding problems at the turnstiles in

1987 and on the terrace in 1988 were additional indications of the inherent dangers to crowd

safety. The risks were known and the crush in 1989 was foreseeable.

In 1981 before the FA Cup Semi-Final between Tottenham Hotspur and

Wolverhampton Wanderers there was serious congestion at the Leppings Lane

turnstiles and crushing on the confined outer concourse. It resulted in the opening

of exit Gate C to relieve the crush. The disclosed documents indicate that entry into

the stadium was managed by South Yorkshire Police (SYP) officers on duty and

Sheffield Wednesday Football Club (SWFC) stewards.

2. What followed was a serious crush on the terraces in which many people were

injured and fatalities narrowly avoided. At that time lateral fences did not divide

the Leppings Lane terrace into pens, and fans were able to move sideways along

the full length of the terrace; others escaped onto the perimeter track through the

narrow gates in the perimeter fence.

The disclosed documents show that police officers located on the inner concourse,

between the turnstiles and the rear of the terrace, restricted access to the central

tunnel under the West Stand, diverting fans to the side access points to the terrace,

thus relieving pressure at the centre. Crowd density figures available to the Panel

demonstrate that the maximum capacity for the terrace was significantly exceeded.

The disclosed documents demonstrate that, following the 1981 incident, there was

a breakdown in the relationship between SWFC and SYP. SWFC refused to accept

the seriousness of the incident and held SYP responsible for the mismanagement

of the crowd. SYP considered that the maximum capacity for the Leppings Lane

terrace, set at 10,100, was too high, a _iew strongly contested by SWFC.

Following the near tragedy in 1981, Hillsborough was not used for FA Cup semifinals

until 1987. During this period the Leppings Lane terrace underwent a series

of significant modifications and alterations, none of which led to a revised safety

certificate. The introduction of further lateral fences created two central pens

accessed via the tunnel beneath the West Stand. Recommendations to feed fans

directly from designated turnstiles into each pen, thus monitoring precisely the

distribution of fans between the pens, were not acted on because of anticipated

costs to SWFC.

Consequently, the turnstile counters were rendered irrelevant. Although they

provided a check on the overall numbers entering the terrace, there was no

information regarding crowd distribution between pens, each of which had an

established maximum capacity.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

How do you know if any fans didn't heed that appeal?

Is there evidence of this?

Other than the police who have been proved this week that they lied through their teeth and spread rumours....who else have you seen say there were ticketless fans?

Did you not read the report where it said fans were queuing from 2.30...15 minutes before the recommended time on the tickets issued to get to the ground?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

23 years on and it looks like people are STILL trying to shift blame here and there.

Sorry.. but it's the police and the ambulance crew that were involved with the whole scene.

Nowadays, stewarding and policing takes place OUTSIDE the stadium to make sure that the crowd acts the way they should and indeed if they don't then the result would be that the gates are all closed and nobody gets to see the game. I was a steward for a good while and there are huge ammounts of implimentation to make sure that nothing like this even has a trickle of chance of happening. Implimentation may not be a word, but it makes sense so it's being used.

Now in all reality.. the cops opened the gates and the fans flooded in. Who's to say they didn't all have a ticket?! Who's to say that the club itself didn't sell too many tickets?

But hey, the cops opened the gates and disaster was imminent. Then there was no action taken by the majority of the emergency services who were on call that day to actually save people from being crushed. Lets face it, the fans in the stand were left caged in like animals and yes, there IS credit due to some of the police force who DID try to save people from being crushed. Let us not forget that there probably is a select few from the emergency services who tried their hardest on the day to do something about it. And there may well have been a few people in the crowd who caused more of a problem by trying to squeeze into the stand.

At the end of the day however, there was no correct procedure for dealing with this situation and that is purely on the emergency services and dare I say whomever was in charge of the stand on that day, be it simply one person, a group of people or the football club themselves.

Justice MUST be done so as the 96 who fell on that day can now rest in peace and that is the bottom line of it, regardless of what rival fans of other clubs have to say about it.

I myself find it an insult that football fans can sing about these type of things jokingly.. the Man Utd air crash and Hillsborough disaster being two of the main ones.

For those who can only criticise the innocent.. have a long hard look at yourselves. How would you feel if you went to a football match one day for a family day out, or even with your mates, and you lost your entire group through this type of thing? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't blame them?

Respect for the dead please.

I hope the 96 can rest in peace. They'll never walk alone.

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

How do you know if any fans didn't heed that appeal?

Is there evidence of this?

Other than the police who have been proved this week that they lied through their teeth and spread rumours....who else have you seen say there were ticketless fans?

Did you not read the report where it said fans were queuing from 2.30...15 minutes before the recommended time on the tickets issued to get to the ground?"

I wouldn't bother, it's obviously a troll. Ignore it. His sort are in the extreme minority now, thankfully.

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

"23 years on and it looks like people are STILL trying to shift blame here and there.

Sorry.. but it's the police and the ambulance crew that were involved with the whole scene.

Now in all reality.. the cops opened the gates and the fans flooded in. Who's to say they didn't all have a ticket?! Who's to say that the club itself didn't sell too many tickets?

Justice MUST be done so as the 96 who fell on that day can now rest in peace and that is the bottom line of it, regardless of what rival fans of other clubs have to say about it.

I myself find it an insult that football fans can sing about these type of things jokingly.. the Man Utd air crash and Hillsborough disaster being two of the main ones.

Respect for the dead please.

I hope the 96 can rest in peace. They'll never walk alone.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How do you know if any fans didn't heed that appeal?

Is there evidence of this?

Other than the police who have been proved this week that they lied through their teeth and spread rumours....who else have you seen say there were ticketless fans?

Did you not read the report where it said fans were queuing from 2.30...15 minutes before the recommended time on the tickets issued to get to the ground?

I wouldn't bother, it's obviously a troll. Ignore it. His sort are in the extreme minority now, thankfully.

Extreme minority? There are many thousands of people who see this latest inquiry for exactly what it is - a shift of blame from the fans to the police in an attempt to appease the families of those that died.

To say that the fans were entirely blameless is ridiculous tbh. Not the fans at the front who died, but those outside pushing to get inside, and if you understand basic physics you'll know that transfer of kinetic energy from one body of mass to another filters through like a wave making its way to shore until it reaches an unbreachable mass and can go no further - and in this case it was the pitchside fences on the pens.

Now, if the fans (outside, inside, upside wherever) were entirely blameless (understand that phrase - ENTIRE: All; BLAMELESS: not at fault), then can someone please explain to me how 96 people died as a result of hundreds of people forming an orderly queue outside the stadium patiently waiting to get to the turnstiles even if it meant missing the first 10 minutes of the match?

How does that result in the deaths of 96 people?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

to be fair, no-one needs to explain anything to you, reports have not been released and let's face it, are far more reliable than your 'assumptions'

"There are many thousands of people who see this latest inquiry for exactly what it is" REALLY?? where are these thousands of people, what facts have you based this on?

anyway, i'm really pleased the families have made progress on this, unfortunately there will always been the very small minoroty that have nothing better to do than preach thier own version of events based on absolutely nothing

Justice for the 96

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"to be fair, no-one needs to explain anything to you"

Then what the hell is this thread all about then? Why do these forums even exist?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

its for discussion but you're asking the impossible and I think you know it, you're making up your own version of events and asking for people to proove them wrong.

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By *illycarrolCouple over a year ago

n/cle on tyne

"That the South Yorkshire police were operationally incompetent and negligent is one thing.

That they used the prevailing stereotype of eighties football fans..animals to be caged..in order to systematically cover up their incompetence is truly shocking

For all the bereaved families who have campaigned ceaselessly for the last twenty three years I hope they can take some comfort from the fact they have been vindicated "
to think tories and police colluding and telling lies together!! nowt has changed lots of arse covering will be done now, it was a sad day for ordinary people

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By *illycarrolCouple over a year ago

n/cle on tyne

"Unbelievable...simply unbelieveable.

Hundreds of years ago people said the world was flat. Saying it didn't make it so.

We all know from the expenses scandal that politicians can't be trusted so why haven't people realised that a favourable result for the families of those affected by Hillsborough is a good result for the govt also."
wishy thats exactly as i thought thetories have tried to gain reflected glory via the olympics and they tink there empathy towards this will garner them more as well bastards the lot of them

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By *ouple in LancashireCouple over a year ago

in Lancashire

would you like your 10 year old being tested for alcohol or even checked on the Police National Computer!

it is pretty clear looking at all your contributions on this thread that there is a bias which has swayed your objective _iewpoint of the issue..

in your posts you have linked Hillsborough and Heysel, suggesting some sort of a 'coincidence' that both tragedies involved Liverpool FC..

whils that is a fact, both are seperate issues..

Were you being objective in mentioning one with the other you would also have mentioned the other recent football tragedies as ALL have certain characterisics and failings which are common..

You have throughout the thread not answered the many factually based questions put to you, preferring instead to make the most tenous conspiracy theories about the political machinations of why the appeal was set up...

your dig at the panel is typical, these are respected people within their chosen field of expertise..

Just how far would you like to the report to go?

would you prefer it if it stated that All the fans attending the Leppings Lane end of the ground where at fault 'cos if they had'nt bothered to turn up the disaster would'nt have occured..

YES, the fact that the people at the back were there and moving forward was a part of what occured in the central pen...

however the FACTS are that on other occasions there was also crush injuries to other teams fans..

Look back at your contributions and you seem to just want to cause a ruck, the tragedy could have been any other team that were allocated that end of the ground on that day..

I think from your perspective it would have diminished your insistence on having a dig at people who have lived with this for 23 years and will continue to do so..

your 'rip' is the same as mackenzie's 'apology' in my _iew, means nothing...

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By *couse_Couple69Couple over a year ago

Liverpool/Warrington

How do you know if any fans didn't heed that appeal?

Is there evidence of this?

Other than the police who have been proved this week that they lied through their teeth and spread rumours....who else have you seen say there were ticketless fans?

Did you not read the report where it said fans were queuing from 2.30...15 minutes before the recommended time on the tickets issued to get to the ground?

I wouldn't bother, it's obviously a troll. Ignore it. His sort are in the extreme minority now, thankfully.

How does that result in the deaths of 96 people?"

The inane, tedious, unfounded drivel you keep bleating is getting extremely boring.

You clearly have no appreciation of the facts regarding Hillsborough. You haven't bothered to read either the Taylor report or the HIP report. Yet you think you can speak about such an emotive subject with such confidence and authority whilst talking absolute shite.

Lord Justice Taylor, the Prime Minister, the Sun, police eye-witnesses and dozens of EXPERTS have unequivocally absolved Liverpool fans of any blame whatsoever. The evidence shows "conclusively" that "Liverpool fans neither caused nor contributed to the deaths". You weren't there, yet you know exactly what happened and how to apportion blame, do you?

You have no point or credibility in this thread, you have consistently made an absolute fool of yourself with ill-informed nonsense.

I refuse to believe anyone is quite *that* gullible/half-witted, so I'd suggest you find something else to apply your attention seeking/loneliness to, as this is not really a suitable subject to troll on.

You are a part of the minority clinging to lies to suit your agenda. The minority - mainly made up of faceless, trolling shithouses sitting behind their screens.

Thankfully I, like the vast majority, have the gumption and intelligence to come to my own informed opinions and not be taken in so readily by such an odious publication as the Sun. It is embarrassing.

I understand your apparent bitterness though; you must be feeling very foolish and embarrassed for being fed, and blindly accepting, such lies for twenty three years. That's all they are though: lies. You are wrong. You have been proven to be wrong. Unfortunately for you, your twisted little agenda is now irrelevant. Nobody is listening. The real truth is out, accept it.

"Liverpool fans neither caused nor contributed to the deaths".

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By *teborahCouple over a year ago

warrington

would you like your 10 year old being tested for alcohol or even checked on the Police National Computer!

3 weeks ago you commented on a thread stating how in your own words "I hate Everton only slightly less than you hate Liverpool" having read this thread you wasn't lying

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

How do you know if any fans didn't heed that appeal?

Is there evidence of this?

Other than the police who have been proved this week that they lied through their teeth and spread rumours....who else have you seen say there were ticketless fans?

Did you not read the report where it said fans were queuing from 2.30...15 minutes before the recommended time on the tickets issued to get to the ground?

I wouldn't bother, it's obviously a troll. Ignore it. His sort are in the extreme minority now, thankfully.

- ?"

In which case wishy, your first post which said "I am glad the truth is finally out, I am glad Mr Cameron has apologised on behalf of the government, I am glad South Yorks Police have issued an apology, and that Mackenzie, editor of The Sun at the time, has also issued an apology" is not really what you mean as according to what you have just written, you don't actually think it the truth has come out at all and you think it is just to appease the families.

What does that say about the man you admire so much? that he is lying through his teeth when he apologised?

Either way, I didn't expect any evidence of what you keep saying because according to the report that Cameron apologised for and you were glad he did....the claims you make were fabricated by the police at the time at the start of the cover up to cover their backs.

All in all, a very contradictory contribution from you on this subject.

I think your dislike of Liverpool FC has clouded your _iew. Football rivalry really shouldn't come into it.

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By *kmale421 OP Man over a year ago

wirral

I started this thread on the morning that the Hillsborough Independant Panel were due to report and as with all threads this one has taken it's twists and turns.

I was emotional on Wednesday, I cried literally when recapping on the phone to my Mum and to my embarressment to my ex (she was at home expecting my 2nd child within days while I was in the Death Pens and was therefore an integral part of Hillsborough to me) the apologies issued by Sheffield Wednesday FC and by the Prime Minister. I don't know why I cried, I'm not a crying type of person but the relief that The Truth was out there for all to see simply overwhelmed me.

I have recieved many messages from friends and strangers on this site all being heartfelt and they have been truely appreciatted. Those people support various clubs including a couple from Manchester United fans and has even led to some friendly banter.

I know Wednesday has changed the opinion of millions of people in the UK and around the world who now fully accept that LFC fans were innocent, and I take comfort in the fact that I am sure that the state will now finally do it's job over things like the inquests and indeed as SYP said yesterday investigating potential corporate and individual manslaughter charges.

I think I was surprised by Wishy's comments in particular, but ultimately I guess there will be some people for reasons of their own choice, whom choose to belive what suits their agenda. So be it, I know Liverpool FC and LFC fans were and are innocent. I know how the crush developed outside the turnstiles, and I know that people were in serious trouble inside the terraces before the Gate C was ever opened.

My final comment on this subject in this thread is directly to you Wishy. I hope that at no time in the future you are ever in a situation whereby you are the victim of something carried out by the incompetancies of others that directly lead to injury or death to you, your loved ones or your friends and then find afterwards when the Truth is revealed that some group of people continue to peddle an untruth to suit their own agenda.

It's time to accept the facts as they are clearly laid out by an Independant Panel made up of people, some of whom were born or work in Liverpool, but some of whom come from other walks of life such as experience in Northern Ireland enquiries. I salute them all for their truely independant and courageous work, which they uniquely kept secret from everyone until publication. Their job was to make full and maximum public disclosure of all documents relating to the Hillsborough disaster. This they did and it has been for others from the PM downwards to interpret those disclosures in the way that has come out since 12.30pm last Wednesday. For those who still wish to interpret things to their own agenda enjoy the isolation, it's really not a very pleasent place to be.

Mark

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The comments on here of wishy are simply unbelievable,ignorant and damn well disrespectful.you should apply to write a column for the s*n...tho even those low lifes have now FINALLY admitted the filth they printed was a load of evil tosh.

I've been going to watch Liverpool since the age of 15...didn't go to the semi final in sheffield admittedly but didn't need to be there to know everything about that day was a complete failure by all authorities from start to finish.

what has happend since has been the biggest cover up in British history and what the survivors and family and the whole of merseyside has had to put up with in the last 23 years is nothing short of disgraceful...finally the truth has come out and the next step is true justice.

jft96 ynwa

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

How do you know if any fans didn't heed that appeal?

Is there evidence of this?

Other than the police who have been proved this week that they lied through their teeth and spread rumours....who else have you seen say there were ticketless fans?

Did you not read the report where it said fans were queuing from 2.30...15 minutes before the recommended time on the tickets issued to get to the ground?

I wouldn't bother, it's obviously a troll. Ignore it. His sort are in the extreme minority now, thankfully.

- ?

What does that say about the man you admire so much? that he is lying through his teeth when he apologised?

All in all, a very contradictory contribution from you on this subject.

I think your dislike of Liverpool FC has clouded your _iew. Football rivalry really shouldn't come into it. "

At no point on this thread have I mentioned the rivallry between Manchester United and Liverpool, yet others felt it neccessary to repost a comment I made on another thread as valid on this one - it isn't, and anyone who follows football knows full well that rivalries between teams are reserved for on the pitch, and I would never gloat about the deaths of fans of another team - read my Football Threads to see how much I love the game and what happened at Hillsborough was as shocking to followers of sunday league football as it was to fans of Liverpool.

On the issue of the Hillsborough disaster, I have been consistent in my belief that I don't think it was entriely the fault of the fans, but I don't believe it was entirely the fault of the police either. There were a set of circumstances in place that led to this tragedy and they ALL had a part to play in it.

* The roadworks on the M62 which led to delays in fans getting to the venue

* The failure of the FA/Match Officials to delay the start of the game

* The fans outside surging forward desperate to get in before kick off

* The police for failing to control those outside the stadium, and for failing to control access to the pens

* Again, the police supt. in charge that day who ordered Gate C to be opened thus transferring the problem of crushing from outside to inside

* Sheffield Wednesday FC for failing to improve the crush barriers and ensure the pitchside fences could be removed in the event of an emergency (although no such requirement at the time was compulsory)

* The ambulance service for failing to get on the pitch and save lives when lives could still be saved.

All those things had a part to play in this disaster and that's what I have been trying to say all along.

But, if these previously unreleased documents have always existed then they have always been available for study/release before now - why has it taken 23 years to get to them?

Was it because the govt in charge during the period in question (1989-2010) saw no benefit in releasing them (although granted Andy Burnham did set the wheels in motion in 2009, too late though when they could have done it a lot sooner - why didn't they?)

I don't bligthly believe whatever I'm told, and in 1989 I didn't believe Liverpool fans were robbing dead Liverpool fans. I didn't believe d*unk Liverpool fans were urinating on policemen. I didn't believe that then, and I don't believe what we're being told today - not entirely.

If the truth was always out there waiting to be found why didn't someone find it sooner? I doubt very much that somebody somewhere opened a big box and thought, "Oh look, there's 400,000 Hillsborough documents!", the documents must have been held in multiple locations which meant more than one person knew of their existence - whjy weren't they brought to light sooner?

We are ruled by our politicians and it is those men and women who make the decisions. I can only hazard a guess at best as to why the Labour govt who held office in the period in question didn't conduct this independent inquiry. My own thoughts on that is that it wasn't in their interests to do so. Blair was busying glorifying himself over Iraq/Kuwait, and Brown was too fucking stupid to know where to look, or how to put it all together.

To lay this entire disaster at the feet of one man - Supt Dickenfield - would be criminal in itself when so many other factors all had a hand in what happened.

And lastly, as for the Sun, I read it for the sports coverage only - plus a quick glance at Page 3. The rest of it is celeb tripe and I couldn't give a flying fart about it.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

I am not sure wether you are aware or not Wishy, but there was a huge cover up about the disaster and the files have only been released to an independant panel in Februaruy 2010.

If you google for it it will be all over the first page of hits as the IP published their findings this week

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I am not sure wether you are aware or not Wishy, but there was a huge cover up about the disaster and the files have only been released to an independant panel in Februaruy 2010.

If you google for it it will be all over the first page of hits as the IP published their findings this week

Yes of course I know, but if the documents have been found now they could have been found before. Somebody had to know - more than one person I suspect. The Hillsborough Victims families fought relentlessly for new inquiries, so it never drifted too far from the public eye, and those documents were still there, waiting to be found. If I read you right you are suggesting that subsequent people in power over the 20 years between 1989 and 2009 have ordered cover up after cover up, yet no blame has been laid at the feet of any politician for ordering such a cover up, not yet anyway.

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

[Removed by poster at 15/09/12 20:49:58]

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By *ugby 123Couple over a year ago
Forum Mod

O o O oo

Of course lots of people knew....and covered it up.

I think maybe if you do google a bit there has been condemning of why it took so long and through different leaders.

All of them right from the beginning of the cover up should be ashamed of themselves if they knew and why I said an apology to me seems too little too late.

If Burnham can act like a terrier to get things moving, then any one of them could have done the same.

Reply privately (closed, thread got too big)