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Are We Actually Failing Them?
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Inspired by O-levels thread, are we, society, actually failing our kids because of our desire to ensure everybody wins and there's no such thing as losers?
I'm thinking about the current exam system but everything else as well, I suppose.
I don't know if it's urban myth or not but you hear of kids can only have a birthday party if they invite all their class mates.
I hope this reads okay it's just that I haven't got two English grade A O-levels, sorry couldn't resist! |
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I’d say if you look at how easily younger generations are offended, too a degree yes.
Tough times make hard men
Hard men make easy times
Easy times make soft men
Soft men make tough times
It’s happened to the Roman Empire and it’s happening again |
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"Inspired by O-levels thread, are we, society, actually failing our kids because of our desire to ensure everybody wins and there's no such thing as losers?
I'm thinking about the current exam system but everything else as well, I suppose.
I don't know if it's urban myth or not but you hear of kids can only have a birthday party if they invite all their class mates.
I hope this reads okay it's just that I haven't got two English grade A O-levels, sorry couldn't resist!"
The birthday party thing is mostly only in primary schools and avoids difficult social situations for the teacher. I don't think it is a bad thing if invitations are handed out in school because it then becomes a school issue. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc) .
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works. |
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"I’d say if you look at how easily younger generations are offended, too a degree yes.
Tough times make hard men
Hard men make easy times
Easy times make soft men
Soft men make tough times
It’s happened to the Roman Empire and it’s happening again "
And this kind of attitude sums up why we have a massive problem with male mental health. |
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There’s a fine line between pushing kids to be the best that they can be and pressurising them into thinking that’s all that matters.
My lot understand that their happiness and mental well-being is of primary concern and any ‘success’ in a professional capacity is just a bonus. |
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By *nly4funMan
over a year ago
Nottingham |
"It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc).
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works."
What gets me is the “you can win at anything” approach I see so often. You can’t, it’s as simple as that.
I would love to see schools reward attitude. To tell kids that they need to find the thing they love doing and then to do it as well as they can.
And to stop rewarding lack of effort in the principle that every child needs to feel as though they are a winner. If you teach kids in school that no effort is rewarded, it’s no wonder that so many are happy to sit on benefit street thinking that the world owes them a living and complaining about class or race or privilege when really it’s about attitude! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc).
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works.
What gets me is the “you can win at anything” approach I see so often. You can’t, it’s as simple as that.
I would love to see schools reward attitude. To tell kids that they need to find the thing they love doing and then to do it as well as they can.
And to stop rewarding lack of effort in the principle that every child needs to feel as though they are a winner. If you teach kids in school that no effort is rewarded, it’s no wonder that so many are happy to sit on benefit street thinking that the world owes them a living and complaining about class or race or privilege when really it’s about attitude!"
I’m not quite sure why you’ve quoted me in your post.
I like the school system of effort = merits = rewards, and the competitive nature of sports days and the like.
You can’t win in real life as an adult, so it’s important to learn how to win or lose gracefully.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’d say if you look at how easily younger generations are offended, too a degree yes.
Tough times make hard men
Hard men make easy times
Easy times make soft men
Soft men make tough times
It’s happened to the Roman Empire and it’s happening again "
Jesus wept. You don't know your history at all if that's your assessment. |
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"I’d say if you look at how easily younger generations are offended, too a degree yes.
Tough times make hard men
Hard men make easy times
Easy times make soft men
Soft men make tough times
It’s happened to the Roman Empire and it’s happening again
And this kind of attitude sums up why we have a massive problem with male mental health. "
 |
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By *nly4funMan
over a year ago
Nottingham |
"It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc).
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works.
What gets me is the “you can win at anything” approach I see so often. You can’t, it’s as simple as that.
I would love to see schools reward attitude. To tell kids that they need to find the thing they love doing and then to do it as well as they can.
And to stop rewarding lack of effort in the principle that every child needs to feel as though they are a winner. If you teach kids in school that no effort is rewarded, it’s no wonder that so many are happy to sit on benefit street thinking that the world owes them a living and complaining about class or race or privilege when really it’s about attitude!
I’m not quite sure why you’ve quoted me in your post.
I like the school system of effort = merits = rewards, and the competitive nature of sports days and the like.
You can’t win in real life as an adult, so it’s important to learn how to win or lose gracefully.
"
Drawn to you I guess  xx
Apologies. |
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"When adults can be offended by toys being gendered due to market research yes we have raised a generation on children that are soft.
As somebody else replied
Hard times build strong men.. etc"
By biased market research |
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"It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc).
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works.
What gets me is the “you can win at anything” approach I see so often. You can’t, it’s as simple as that.
I would love to see schools reward attitude. To tell kids that they need to find the thing they love doing and then to do it as well as they can.
And to stop rewarding lack of effort in the principle that every child needs to feel as though they are a winner. If you teach kids in school that no effort is rewarded, it’s no wonder that so many are happy to sit on benefit street thinking that the world owes them a living and complaining about class or race or privilege when really it’s about attitude!"
I don’t think any schools are teaching that no effort will be rewarded. I don’t think that’s the problem.
I think teaching kids that everything feeling they have matters and should be met with change on other people’s behalf is the problem.
The old saying of sticks and stones was about breeding mental toughness and confidence. That’s gone now.
Not only do we accept and encourage kids to be affected by every little comment made, we teach them that if they do feel bad, the other person has to change that. We teach them that their feelings trump other people’s freedom.
My parents are tough people. It’s very hard to say something that would effect them, especially if it’s a stranger. Because they grew up being taught that confidence comes from within. Just words can’t hurt you unless you let them.
I don’t think I can say the same about younger members of my family. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc).
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works.
What gets me is the “you can win at anything” approach I see so often. You can’t, it’s as simple as that.
I would love to see schools reward attitude. To tell kids that they need to find the thing they love doing and then to do it as well as they can.
And to stop rewarding lack of effort in the principle that every child needs to feel as though they are a winner. If you teach kids in school that no effort is rewarded, it’s no wonder that so many are happy to sit on benefit street thinking that the world owes them a living and complaining about class or race or privilege when really it’s about attitude!"
Wholeheartedly agree  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc).
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works.
What gets me is the “you can win at anything” approach I see so often. You can’t, it’s as simple as that.
I would love to see schools reward attitude. To tell kids that they need to find the thing they love doing and then to do it as well as they can.
And to stop rewarding lack of effort in the principle that every child needs to feel as though they are a winner. If you teach kids in school that no effort is rewarded, it’s no wonder that so many are happy to sit on benefit street thinking that the world owes them a living and complaining about class or race or privilege when really it’s about attitude!
I’m not quite sure why you’ve quoted me in your post.
I like the school system of effort = merits = rewards, and the competitive nature of sports days and the like.
You can’t win in real life as an adult, so it’s important to learn how to win or lose gracefully.
"
Well said but I think we are actively moving away from that, unfortunately  |
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"I’d say if you look at how easily younger generations are offended, too a degree yes.
Tough times make hard men
Hard men make easy times
Easy times make soft men
Soft men make tough times
It’s happened to the Roman Empire and it’s happening again "
What the hell has any of this have to do with the Roman Empire? |
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"I’d say if you look at how easily younger generations are offended, too a degree yes.
Tough times make hard men
Hard men make easy times
Easy times make soft men
Soft men make tough times
It’s happened to the Roman Empire and it’s happening again
What the hell has any of this have to do with the Roman Empire?"
Read the quote. Very similar thing happened with the Khans too |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc).
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works.
What gets me is the “you can win at anything” approach I see so often. You can’t, it’s as simple as that.
I would love to see schools reward attitude. To tell kids that they need to find the thing they love doing and then to do it as well as they can.
And to stop rewarding lack of effort in the principle that every child needs to feel as though they are a winner. If you teach kids in school that no effort is rewarded, it’s no wonder that so many are happy to sit on benefit street thinking that the world owes them a living and complaining about class or race or privilege when really it’s about attitude!
I don’t think any schools are teaching that no effort will be rewarded. I don’t think that’s the problem.
I think teaching kids that everything feeling they have matters and should be met with change on other people’s behalf is the problem.
The old saying of sticks and stones was about breeding mental toughness and confidence. That’s gone now.
Not only do we accept and encourage kids to be affected by every little comment made, we teach them that if they do feel bad, the other person has to change that. We teach them that their feelings trump other people’s freedom.
My parents are tough people. It’s very hard to say something that would effect them, especially if it’s a stranger. Because they grew up being taught that confidence comes from within. Just words can’t hurt you unless you let them.
I don’t think I can say the same about younger members of my family."
Couldn't agree more, I know which society I'd want to live within. |
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Yeah I think we mostly are. We've taught children to pass exams not to be able to think and problem solve.
I work in higher education and the amount of upset, stress and tears from students is shocking. They are so used to being spoon fed what they should learn how to to get that high grade. I've had students crying and/or complaining about having 70%. They don't enjoy the subjects they've decided to study and that to me isn't right.
We give them practical exams and the amount that crumble under the pressure is heartbreaking. It's all basic things they need to do but they haven't been taught how to think rationally. Intelligence isn't only the ability to regurgitate information which is what the main focus is on, which isn't helpful as an adult. |
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By *batMan
over a year ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"We teach them that their feelings trump other people’s freedom."
Freedom comes at a price though.
In a society that is free for everyone, you DON'T have the freedom to say what ever you like, wherever you like, whenever you like.
We've got laws that balance your freedoms and rights against other people's freedoms and rights, so that it's more equitable. In some instances their feelings DO "trump"your freedoms, whether you like it or not.
If strong men can't cope with this, then maybe they are not as strong as they thought?
Gbat |
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My parents are tough in fact they make a virtue of it to their own detriment.
We're tough and my siblings are too. One of my brothers has had an extremely difficult life.
Our kids and their friends are tough.
I think every generation says that children have it too easy. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"This isn't a problem with just the younger generation from what I read on here. So many people expect the prize without really participating in the competition"
You're right, I've seen it with all the generations, it seems to be an empowerment thing. I've just witnessed a couple park on zigzags of a crossing because it was opposite the shop they wanted to go in |
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"We teach them that their feelings trump other people’s freedom.
Freedom comes at a price though.
In a society that is free for everyone, you DON'T have the freedom to say what ever you like, wherever you like, whenever you like.
We've got laws that balance your freedoms and rights against other people's freedoms and rights, so that it's more equitable. In some instances their feelings DO "trump"your freedoms, whether you like it or not.
If strong men can't cope with this, then maybe they are not as strong as they thought?
Gbat"
That’s more of a debate about what freedom is though isn’t it?
Free speech in places like America still exist in their entirety.
I personally don’t think anyone’s feelings trump your freedom. But that’s a different debate entirely and for another thread |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I’d say if you look at how easily younger generations are offended, too a degree yes.
Tough times make hard men
Hard men make easy times
Easy times make soft men
Soft men make tough times
It’s happened to the Roman Empire and it’s happening again
What the hell has any of this have to do with the Roman Empire?"
Didn't the Roman empire degenerate in to a society of hedonism |
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There’s some very fine lines in this area for me…
I don’t think we are failing young people, but at the same time I think we need to balance academics with other things. Not everyone is academically minded, and often they can be brilliant at other, more hands-on trades, but for years education has been all about academics. People who get lower academic grades are seen as being thick, but in reality their talents simply lie elsewhere. We need to do a better job of harnessing those talents and not look down on people whose paths differ from academics and exams. When I did my A-Levels everyone was expected to apply for University. There was no discussion as to whether it was the right choice for them, and anyone who said they didn’t want to was treated like they were weird. Things have got better now but there’s still a lot more to do.
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"Yeah I think we mostly are. We've taught children to pass exams not to be able to think and problem solve.
I work in higher education and the amount of upset, stress and tears from students is shocking. They are so used to being spoon fed what they should learn how to to get that high grade. I've had students crying and/or complaining about having 70%. They don't enjoy the subjects they've decided to study and that to me isn't right.
We give them practical exams and the amount that crumble under the pressure is heartbreaking. It's all basic things they need to do but they haven't been taught how to think rationally. Intelligence isn't only the ability to regurgitate information which is what the main focus is on, which isn't helpful as an adult. "
This! 100% |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There’s some very fine lines in this area for me…
I don’t think we are failing young people, but at the same time I think we need to balance academics with other things. Not everyone is academically minded, and often they can be brilliant at other, more hands-on trades, but for years education has been all about academics. People who get lower academic grades are seen as being thick, but in reality their talents simply lie elsewhere. We need to do a better job of harnessing those talents and not look down on people whose paths differ from academics and exams. When I did my A-Levels everyone was expected to apply for University. There was no discussion as to whether it was the right choice for them, and anyone who said they didn’t want to was treated like they were weird. Things have got better now but there’s still a lot more to do.
"
But we had that, polytechnics for vocational degrees and Further Education Colleges for day release. |
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"There’s some very fine lines in this area for me…
I don’t think we are failing young people, but at the same time I think we need to balance academics with other things. Not everyone is academically minded, and often they can be brilliant at other, more hands-on trades, but for years education has been all about academics. People who get lower academic grades are seen as being thick, but in reality their talents simply lie elsewhere. We need to do a better job of harnessing those talents and not look down on people whose paths differ from academics and exams. When I did my A-Levels everyone was expected to apply for University. There was no discussion as to whether it was the right choice for them, and anyone who said they didn’t want to was treated like they were weird. Things have got better now but there’s still a lot more to do.
But we had that, polytechnics for vocational degrees and Further Education Colleges for day release."
We did, yeah, and most became universities offering more academic degrees, particularly in the late 90s/early 2000s when there was a push for everyone to go to university and get a degree. Personally I think we need more vocational options available for young people. |
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"There’s some very fine lines in this area for me…
I don’t think we are failing young people, but at the same time I think we need to balance academics with other things. Not everyone is academically minded, and often they can be brilliant at other, more hands-on trades, but for years education has been all about academics. People who get lower academic grades are seen as being thick, but in reality their talents simply lie elsewhere. We need to do a better job of harnessing those talents and not look down on people whose paths differ from academics and exams. When I did my A-Levels everyone was expected to apply for University. There was no discussion as to whether it was the right choice for them, and anyone who said they didn’t want to was treated like they were weird. Things have got better now but there’s still a lot more to do.
"
That's the issue with treating all kids equally... not all kids learn sat at a desk for 9 hours.. in fact more than a large percentage of kids are hands on..
So having to treat that kid who learns practical skills the same as the bookworm is having negative effects on all the kids because we aren't tailoring lessons to the children's strong points and instead making education easier so that everybody can pass |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There’s some very fine lines in this area for me…
I don’t think we are failing young people, but at the same time I think we need to balance academics with other things. Not everyone is academically minded, and often they can be brilliant at other, more hands-on trades, but for years education has been all about academics. People who get lower academic grades are seen as being thick, but in reality their talents simply lie elsewhere. We need to do a better job of harnessing those talents and not look down on people whose paths differ from academics and exams. When I did my A-Levels everyone was expected to apply for University. There was no discussion as to whether it was the right choice for them, and anyone who said they didn’t want to was treated like they were weird. Things have got better now but there’s still a lot more to do.
But we had that, polytechnics for vocational degrees and Further Education Colleges for day release.
We did, yeah, and most became universities offering more academic degrees, particularly in the late 90s/early 2000s when there was a push for everyone to go to university and get a degree. Personally I think we need more vocational options available for young people. "
I agree with strong support that shows just because you haven't got 10 grade A passes you're a failure, if that sense? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There’s some very fine lines in this area for me…
I don’t think we are failing young people, but at the same time I think we need to balance academics with other things. Not everyone is academically minded, and often they can be brilliant at other, more hands-on trades, but for years education has been all about academics. People who get lower academic grades are seen as being thick, but in reality their talents simply lie elsewhere. We need to do a better job of harnessing those talents and not look down on people whose paths differ from academics and exams. When I did my A-Levels everyone was expected to apply for University. There was no discussion as to whether it was the right choice for them, and anyone who said they didn’t want to was treated like they were weird. Things have got better now but there’s still a lot more to do.
That's the issue with treating all kids equally... not all kids learn sat at a desk for 9 hours.. in fact more than a large percentage of kids are hands on..
So having to treat that kid who learns practical skills the same as the bookworm is having negative effects on all the kids because we aren't tailoring lessons to the children's strong points and instead making education easier so that everybody can pass"
Absolutely |
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"But we had that, polytechnics for vocational degrees and Further Education Colleges for day release.
We did, yeah, and most became universities offering more academic degrees, particularly in the late 90s/early 2000s when there was a push for everyone to go to university and get a degree. Personally I think we need more vocational options available for young people.
I agree with strong support that shows just because you haven't got 10 grade A passes you're a failure, if that sense?"
Yes, that makes sense and I agree. We need to celebrate success in whatever field, be it academic or vocational. |
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By *batMan
over a year ago
Alicante, Spain. (Sometimes in Wales) |
"Free speech in places like America still exist in their entirety. "
Why do you think that? The US is a really litigious society and there are definitely some limits on what you can say and how you can say it.
Here's a link to a US published document from ACLU, a Civil Liberties organisation. (I believe you are referring to the US. The continent America is huge with many different types of society and laws).
https://www.aclunc.org/our-work/know-your-rights/know-your-rights-free-speech-protests-demonstrations
Gbat |
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"Free speech in places like America still exist in their entirety.
Why do you think that? The US is a really litigious society and there are definitely some limits on what you can say and how you can say it.
Here's a link to a US published document from ACLU, a Civil Liberties organisation. (I believe you are referring to the US. The continent America is huge with many different types of society and laws).
https://www.aclunc.org/our-work/know-your-rights/know-your-rights-free-speech-protests-demonstrations
Gbat "
You cannot be prosecuted for an opinion in the USA unless it is a call to violence or targeted harassment.
Unlike certain parts of the UK *cough Scotland cough* where you can not only be arrested for a joke but the government was trying to incentivice "dobbing your gran in" for not agreeing with modern intersectional theory. |
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By *otMe66Man
over a year ago
Terra Firma |
"Inspired by O-levels thread, are we, society, actually failing our kids because of our desire to ensure everybody wins and there's no such thing as losers?
I'm thinking about the current exam system but everything else as well, I suppose.
I don't know if it's urban myth or not but you hear of kids can only have a birthday party if they invite all their class mates.
The technology of fire, iron, steam and so on have meant more comfortable, less stressful tasks and greater economic wealth.
The digital technology revolution we have now has happened so quickly that lifestyle change is palpable.
We can see change happening, life becoming easier, quickly.
The reality is, we are not failing anyone, we are simply making things easier. Life is getting easier for people and it always will, whether you like it or not.
I hope this reads okay it's just that I haven't got two English grade A O-levels, sorry couldn't resist!"
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"As someone with a huge family and extended family I have to say it's a load of bollocks.
"
I agree. It makes a good headline but my kids have come through our school system and all have good careers. More importantly, they're happy.
Taking everything into account, and allowing for the fact that people will have different experiences and opinions, the education my kids have received seems to have worked very well for them. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I don't really know if the case has been proven that we are giving medals out to all. What we may be recognising more is your school results aren't the end game, but learning is a means to greater things.
I also suspect many of the allegations thrown at younger generations actually run true for most.
I've not notice that the self entitled male who expects a fuck with no effort is always young. My impression is many are older.
I've not noticed it's only youngsters that take offence. Often it's older people taking offence at an article that is based on one youtuber or tweet.
The difficult times/hard men quote has, I suspect, an element of truth. But I'd say that is more likely measured over many many generations. Not one to the next. |
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"I don't really know if the case has been proven that we are giving medals out to all. What we may be recognising more is your school results aren't the end game, but learning is a means to greater things.
I also suspect many of the allegations thrown at younger generations actually run true for most.
I've not notice that the self entitled male who expects a fuck with no effort is always young. My impression is many are older.
I've not noticed it's only youngsters that take offence. Often it's older people taking offence at an article that is based on one youtuber or tweet.
The difficult times/hard men quote has, I suspect, an element of truth. But I'd say that is more likely measured over many many generations. Not one to the next. "
The last part there your exactly right the generations post ww2 have progressively gotten more and more entitled, and offended.
In the 70s and 80s we had George Carlin and Eddie Murphy, today we try to cancel Ricky Gervais.
And if you ever tried to say Richard prior jokes today in Glasgow expect a knock at your door and 6 officers and a social worker there to "check your thinking" |
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By *utmegsMan
over a year ago
Closer than you think |
"And if you ever tried to say Richard prior jokes today in Glasgow expect a knock at your door and 6 officers and a social worker there to "check your thinking""
To be fair, Richard Prior’s material would need me to possess one obvious protected characteristic for it to be remotely understandable, let alone acceptable. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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on the whole it is a s every other generation have said, in some ways they have it better and not so much in others. The education system is far from perfect.. but they have far more choice including vocational options at school that were never there for me. My eldest is not particularly academic and exams are pointless her anxiety thrives on them.. so she was able to chose courses that allowed her to work purely on coursework and practical assessments.
As for society there have been and are ongoing changes in attitudes and acceptances. We expect more of younger people I think, but are possible more open now than we ever have been.. the help is there if they know where to look.
As always its swings and roundabouts.. its what we make of it and how we chose to raise them as families and communities. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It’s not universal. Both kids schools still have competitive events, including sports and which house gets most points overall (behaviour/work etc).
It’s not my experience that you have to invite the whole class, I’ve witnessed both, and seen the occasional whinge about it, but overall it works.
What gets me is the “you can win at anything” approach I see so often. You can’t, it’s as simple as that.
I would love to see schools reward attitude. To tell kids that they need to find the thing they love doing and then to do it as well as they can.
And to stop rewarding lack of effort in the principle that every child needs to feel as though they are a winner. If you teach kids in school that no effort is rewarded, it’s no wonder that so many are happy to sit on benefit street thinking that the world owes them a living and complaining about class or race or privilege when really it’s about attitude!
I’m not quite sure why you’ve quoted me in your post.
I like the school system of effort = merits = rewards, and the competitive nature of sports days and the like.
You can’t win in real life as an adult, so it’s important to learn how to win or lose gracefully.
Drawn to you I guess xx
Apologies. "
Haha! It wasn’t a problem. Just curious |
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