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The olympics, what makes you a woman?
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"I think it's a grey area, Shag. My guy instinct is that of its natural, then why not? I mean height can be a massive advantage in some sports - as far as I'm aware, you're not excluded from basketball ball if you're 7ft or deemed to have an unfair advantage! But, where excessive androgens CAN improve timings/strength and athletes are increasingly androgenous, it can be open to abuse from the unscrupulous. I just feel for these 2 young girls - as I did for Caster - having to undergo such invasive tests & having the world scrutinising your body. " Exactly this. You're far more eloquent than my reply would have been. | |||
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"I think it's a grey area, Shag. My guy instinct is that of its natural, then why not? I mean height can be a massive advantage in some sports - as far as I'm aware, you're not excluded from basketball ball if you're 7ft or deemed to have an unfair advantage! But, where excessive androgens CAN improve timings/strength and athletes are increasingly androgenous, it can be open to abuse from the unscrupulous. I just feel for these 2 young girls - as I did for Caster - having to undergo such invasive tests & having the world scrutinising your body. " Yes, it is a gray area as well and same here. I also feel for them and he too, they are just 18 and been training all their life for this, as of now, the 2 said that they are not going to take legal action against world athletics, but they will fight for their right to race, which I think is good too, the kenyan runner margaret wambui said athletics needs a third category beyond men and women. | |||
"I find it annoying that when men have physical advantages, it's seen as that - an advantage. But for women, it's a disadvantage. " The big argument is that "being a man" is the ultimate advantage. Therefore the closer a woman becomes to "being a man" the more advantage she would have. Personally I feel that if it is natural, then it is unfair to penalise them for it. Cal | |||
"I think it's a grey area, Shag. My guy instinct is that of its natural, then why not? I mean height can be a massive advantage in some sports - as far as I'm aware, you're not excluded from basketball ball if you're 7ft or deemed to have an unfair advantage! But, where excessive androgens CAN improve timings/strength and athletes are increasingly androgenous, it can be open to abuse from the unscrupulous. I just feel for these 2 young girls - as I did for Caster - having to undergo such invasive tests & having the world scrutinising your body. Yes, it is a gray area as well and same here. I also feel for them and he too, they are just 18 and been training all their life for this, as of now, the 2 said that they are not going to take legal action against world athletics, but they will fight for their right to race, which I think is good too, the kenyan runner margaret wambui said athletics needs a third category beyond men and women." Yes, high plays a big part too as they need fewer steps than the one who is shorter, so would get there faster too. | |||
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"I think it's a grey area, Shag. My guy instinct is that of its natural, then why not? I mean height can be a massive advantage in some sports - as far as I'm aware, you're not excluded from basketball ball if you're 7ft or deemed to have an unfair advantage! But, where excessive androgens CAN improve timings/strength and athletes are increasingly androgenous, it can be open to abuse from the unscrupulous. I just feel for these 2 young girls - as I did for Caster - having to undergo such invasive tests & having the world scrutinising your body. Yes, it is a gray area as well and same here. I also feel for them and he too, they are just 18 and been training all their life for this, as of now, the 2 said that they are not going to take legal action against world athletics, but they will fight for their right to race, which I think is good too, the kenyan runner margaret wambui said athletics needs a third category beyond men and women.Yes, high plays a big part too as they need fewer steps than the one who is shorter, so would get there faster too." Height* | |||
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"What confuses me is, if the rule asks for the testosterone to be at a certain level, why not take anti-androgens/blockers in order to reduce it? Of course it does affect the body but surely it could have been an option? " But then should we ask men to do the same so that they're all equal? | |||
"What confuses me is, if the rule asks for the testosterone to be at a certain level, why not take anti-androgens/blockers in order to reduce it? Of course it does affect the body but surely it could have been an option? But then should we ask men to do the same so that they're all equal? " Of course, there’s a level for men (obviously it’s higher than women’s) so if they go above, either they reduce it anti-androgens (spiro) to bring it to lower levels or they won’t be able to compete…. Fair and square Btw you can dose spiro, so the testosterone won’t drop to 0 or close to 0, like for when they dose it to girls like me . | |||
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"What confuses me is, if the rule asks for the testosterone to be at a certain level, why not take anti-androgens/blockers in order to reduce it? Of course it does affect the body but surely it could have been an option? But then should we ask men to do the same so that they're all equal? Of course, there’s a level for men (obviously it’s higher than women’s) so if they go above, either they reduce it anti-androgens (spiro) to bring it to lower levels or they won’t be able to compete…. Fair and square Btw you can dose spiro, so the testosterone won’t drop to 0 or close to 0, like for when they dose it to girls like me ." 
*reduce it with | |||
"Can of worms, should they choose to then one day we may see men having to reduce their testosterone levels and women increase theirs so if all levels are equal no more mens or womens events just level across the board but there are more advantages and disadvantages than merely testosterone levels, there is frame/skeletal differences and on the whole flexibility/agility differences. Why they just can't leave it as it has been I don't know." Yeah but then we go to the level of categorising height, and weight (which some disciplines already do), and body flexibility, and bone density, and how big your hand is, or how big your foot is……… which is obviously impossible to keep track of | |||
" My guy instinct is ... " But you're a woman  | |||
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"Can I just mention the fact that I read that Laurel Hubbard ended up failing to complete every single lift? Now, I’m gonna say that I/we told you so, and hopefully it has shut up certain guys that were convinced she was gonna breeze through and win because she’s not cis woman, and thinking they know best. I take HRT, and hormones therapy really weakens and gets a lot of strength out of you. Ive noticed I barely have any upper body strength… obviously Laurel would have more strength than me and a lot of other people, but she wasn’t able to keep up in her category clearly… " She failed on the snatch | |||
" She failed on the snatch" Can relate  | |||
and I can only imagine the backlash/hate/trolling she’s getting from people (the comments out there on the web are disgusting)
So she should be proud | |||
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"Phelps had numerous genetic issues that loaned themselves to being a good swimmer. Is it possible females can have genetic issues that allow them higher levels of muscles, higher testosterone etc. if so the levels need to be revisited. The testosterone levels for men are quite high, most men could go on steroids and be below them. This takes into account genetic outliers. Is the women's high enough? But let's not kid ourselves. If tomorrow the Olympic committee days the natural top level for a female is double. Then overnight women will start testing with double the testosterone. There are natural ways to boost it after all." And testosterone is THE strong hormone, it gives a lot when it comes to performing, let’s not kid ourselves. (And if you bring it to 0 or close to 0, the body will also react differently) Obviously those women had a higher level of testosterone in their body ( resulting in some ways) so, as said maybe they should have dosed anti-androgens to keep it at the required level | |||
"And testosterone is THE strong hormone, it gives a lot when it comes to performing, let’s not kid ourselves. (And if you bring it to 0 or close to 0, the body will also react differently) Obviously those women had a higher level of testosterone in their body ( resulting in some ways) so, as said maybe they should have dosed anti-androgens to keep it at the required level " I think they want to leave that decision up to the athletes. But as far as I am aware they will allow you to take medication to lower it. I believe they have let people do it for thyroid problems on the past. The team would have been expected to deal with it not the Olympic committee. I think that's how this is all blown up, the Olympics has been caught off guard and somempople taking a stand saying they are natural has caught them mid step. I think the Olympics never intended to be anti trans or anti anything but anti cheating. Dealing with Olympic athletes from all over the world must be exhausting when all you are doing is just making sure they don't cheat. For some of these countries it's full state sponsored cheating. But my understanding is that more and more women are naturally hitting the high end of testosterone. Countries are looking as hard as they can for the genetic outliers. So the Olympics will probably higher the limit. although I doubt mid games, probably announce it later. | |||
"And testosterone is THE strong hormone, it gives a lot when it comes to performing, let’s not kid ourselves. (And if you bring it to 0 or close to 0, the body will also react differently) Obviously those women had a higher level of testosterone in their body ( resulting in some ways) so, as said maybe they should have dosed anti-androgens to keep it at the required level I think they want to leave that decision up to the athletes. But as far as I am aware they will allow you to take medication to lower it. I believe they have let people do it for thyroid problems on the past. The team would have been expected to deal with it not the Olympic committee. I think that's how this is all blown up, the Olympics has been caught off guard and somempople taking a stand saying they are natural has caught them mid step. I think the Olympics never intended to be anti trans or anti anything but anti cheating. Dealing with Olympic athletes from all over the world must be exhausting when all you are doing is just making sure they don't cheat. For some of these countries it's full state sponsored cheating. But my understanding is that more and more women are naturally hitting the high end of testosterone. Countries are looking as hard as they can for the genetic outliers. So the Olympics will probably higher the limit. although I doubt mid games, probably announce it later." Yeah I have a friend (cis woman) who also takes anti-androgens for thyroids but also because she gets a bit hairy so her testosterone is on the higher level Regarding athletes, well seems fair if its like a little bit higher than usual, maybe they will review for the next Olympics | |||
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"I find it annoying that when men have physical advantages, it's seen as that - an advantage. But for women, it's a disadvantage. The big argument is that "being a man" is the ultimate advantage. Therefore the closer a woman becomes to "being a man" the more advantage she would have. Personally I feel that if it is natural, then it is unfair to penalise them for it. Cal" I totally agree. And as for the Laurel issue that someone mentioned,she was born a man and yes she's trans now and allowed to compete against other women so women who are deemed to have an advantage over others because their bodies produce high testosterone should just compete without being subjected all these tests and investigations | |||
"Phelps had numerous genetic issues that loaned themselves to being a good swimmer. Is it possible females can have genetic issues that allow them higher levels of muscles, higher testosterone etc. if so the levels need to be revisited. The testosterone levels for men are quite high, most men could go on steroids and be below them. This takes into account genetic outliers. Is the women's high enough? But let's not kid ourselves. If tomorrow the Olympic committee days the natural top level for a female is double. Then overnight women will start testing with double the testosterone. There are natural ways to boost it after all. And testosterone is THE strong hormone, it gives a lot when it comes to performing, let’s not kid ourselves. (And if you bring it to 0 or close to 0, the body will also react differently) Obviously those women had a higher level of testosterone in their body ( resulting in some ways) so, as said maybe they should have dosed anti-androgens to keep it at the required level " That's the way they were born and surely they should be allowed to compete without taking anything to lower their testosterone levels especially if a trans woman is allowed to compete against other women. | |||
"Phelps had numerous genetic issues that loaned themselves to being a good swimmer. Is it possible females can have genetic issues that allow them higher levels of muscles, higher testosterone etc. if so the levels need to be revisited. The testosterone levels for men are quite high, most men could go on steroids and be below them. This takes into account genetic outliers. Is the women's high enough? But let's not kid ourselves. If tomorrow the Olympic committee days the natural top level for a female is double. Then overnight women will start testing with double the testosterone. There are natural ways to boost it after all. And testosterone is THE strong hormone, it gives a lot when it comes to performing, let’s not kid ourselves. (And if you bring it to 0 or close to 0, the body will also react differently) Obviously those women had a higher level of testosterone in their body ( resulting in some ways) so, as said maybe they should have dosed anti-androgens to keep it at the required level That's the way they were born and surely they should be allowed to compete without taking anything to lower their testosterone levels especially if a trans woman is allowed to compete against other women." But the trans woman takes medication to lower her testosterone levels to within prescribed levels that allow her to compete. | |||
"Phelps had numerous genetic issues that loaned themselves to being a good swimmer. Is it possible females can have genetic issues that allow them higher levels of muscles, higher testosterone etc. if so the levels need to be revisited. The testosterone levels for men are quite high, most men could go on steroids and be below them. This takes into account genetic outliers. Is the women's high enough? But let's not kid ourselves. If tomorrow the Olympic committee days the natural top level for a female is double. Then overnight women will start testing with double the testosterone. There are natural ways to boost it after all. And testosterone is THE strong hormone, it gives a lot when it comes to performing, let’s not kid ourselves. (And if you bring it to 0 or close to 0, the body will also react differently) Obviously those women had a higher level of testosterone in their body ( resulting in some ways) so, as said maybe they should have dosed anti-androgens to keep it at the required level That's the way they were born and surely they should be allowed to compete without taking anything to lower their testosterone levels especially if a trans woman is allowed to compete against other women. But the trans woman takes medication to lower her testosterone levels to within prescribed levels that allow her to compete. " Let me correct, Laurel probably takes medication to keep testosterone levels within range BUT most importantly because that’s the cocktail you need to take when on HRT! And it’s usually for life. | |||
"I find it annoying that when men have physical advantages, it's seen as that - an advantage. But for women, it's a disadvantage. The big argument is that "being a man" is the ultimate advantage. Therefore the closer a woman becomes to "being a man" the more advantage she would have. Personally I feel that if it is natural, then it is unfair to penalise them for it. Cal I totally agree. And as for the Laurel issue that someone mentioned,she was born a man and yes she's trans now and allowed to compete against other women so women who are deemed to have an advantage over others because their bodies produce high testosterone should just compete without being subjected all these tests and investigations " Obviously we don’t have the clinical results for these women who have tested higher on testosterone but say, if they are well in the male range and have been so always (and still are) then let obviously the expert decide! Surely they have the same cap for men who can’t have a way too high range of testosterone in the body as that can be seen as doping? I read that men also have a range too What happened with Laurel also probably showed that HRT clearly works against her. Still proud she was the 1 trans woman to compete (as said 1 trans athlete out of gazillion!) | |||
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"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it " Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) | |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily)" I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. | |||
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"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. " Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol | |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol " I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions. | |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions." The only thing I’ll give you is the fact that height and a general proportion won’t change after puberty BUT there’s a small shrinkage (of course you won’t go from being 6’0” for example , to 5’2” if you take HRT) But then again women naturally can be 6’1” , or bigger. I don’t know if you were hiding under a rock, but have you seen some of the athletes in lifting? Literally weren’t that different looking compared to Laurel lol Regarding muscles and fibres and density of the bones, as said, they get affected. The more we are on it and the more muscle we lose (it’s known) and bone density too on certain meds. So. I know it isn’t the same but I noticed about this lack of strength, when on yoga classes all the other women could keep hold of positions for the amount of time and my body just gave up half way and I had to apologise to my teacher as my body just couldn’t do as I wanted it to do (and I used to be able to, no problem , prior hormones btw) ANYWAY, lol will we ever agree on something thick? | |||
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"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions. The only thing I’ll give you is the fact that height and a general proportion won’t change after puberty BUT there’s a small shrinkage (of course you won’t go from being 6’0” for example , to 5’2” if you take HRT) But then again women naturally can be 6’1” , or bigger. I don’t know if you were hiding under a rock, but have you seen some of the athletes in lifting? Literally weren’t that different looking compared to Laurel lol Regarding muscles and fibres and density of the bones, as said, they get affected. The more we are on it and the more muscle we lose (it’s known) and bone density too on certain meds. So. I know it isn’t the same but I noticed about this lack of strength, when on yoga classes all the other women could keep hold of positions for the amount of time and my body just gave up half way and I had to apologise to my teacher as my body just couldn’t do as I wanted it to do (and I used to be able to, no problem , prior hormones btw) ANYWAY, lol will we ever agree on something thick? "his is all anecdotal evidence and until we have clear scientific evidence that HRT lowers these to such an extent that it’s not an advantage I still don’t think they should compete. And yeah I’ve seen some of the women, they’re genetic specimens. But still, born women. So their size is a god given gift. Completely different to a trans athlete. And I noticed you didn’t touch on the advantage given through years of training on a males level of test? Wonder why I just find it weird. If a natural born women is even a cunt hair over what that deemed “fair” then they are out. But a MtF trans athlete, with all these possible advantages, that’s fair? Until the science is absolutely concrete the whether these advantages exist, for the sake of fairness. They shouldn’t be able to compete. And even then I’d say we’re still on shaky grounds. Because if you live for a man for 30 years then transition there’s absolutely no way we can quantify if any of those advantages of being a man for 30 years still exist. It just seems off to me. “Hey you, natural born woman, you have 1mg too high natural test production, your out!” “Hey, you over there, with your male sized hands, male height/size advantage, male proportions, and 30 years of living and training with a males level of test, this is all completely fair, get in there with the ladies!” It’s just weird. Also people’s opinions on it. Olympic committee rules on trans athletes competing - “they’re the experts trust their decisions” Olympic committee rules on athletes testing positive for - “they’re not the experts this is silly! | |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions. The only thing I’ll give you is the fact that height and a general proportion won’t change after puberty BUT there’s a small shrinkage (of course you won’t go from being 6’0” for example , to 5’2” if you take HRT) But then again women naturally can be 6’1” , or bigger. I don’t know if you were hiding under a rock, but have you seen some of the athletes in lifting? Literally weren’t that different looking compared to Laurel lol Regarding muscles and fibres and density of the bones, as said, they get affected. The more we are on it and the more muscle we lose (it’s known) and bone density too on certain meds. So. I know it isn’t the same but I noticed about this lack of strength, when on yoga classes all the other women could keep hold of positions for the amount of time and my body just gave up half way and I had to apologise to my teacher as my body just couldn’t do as I wanted it to do (and I used to be able to, no problem , prior hormones btw) ANYWAY, lol will we ever agree on something thick?
his is all anecdotal evidence and until we have clear scientific evidence that HRT lowers these to such an extent that it’s not an advantage I still don’t think they should compete.
And yeah I’ve seen some of the women, they’re genetic specimens. But still, born women. So their size is a god given gift. Completely different to a trans athlete.
And I noticed you didn’t touch on the advantage given through years of training on a males level of test? Wonder why
I just find it weird. If a natural born women is even a cunt hair over what that deemed “fair” then they are out.
But a MtF trans athlete, with all these possible advantages, that’s fair?
Until the science is absolutely concrete the whether these advantages exist, for the sake of fairness. They shouldn’t be able to compete.
And even then I’d say we’re still on shaky grounds. Because if you live for a man for 30 years then transition there’s absolutely no way we can quantify if any of those advantages of being a man for 30 years still exist.
It just seems off to me.
“Hey you, natural born woman, you have 1mg too high natural test production, your out!”
“Hey, you over there, with your male sized hands, male height/size advantage, male proportions, and 30 years of living and training with a males level of test, this is all completely fair, get in there with the ladies!”
It’s just weird. Also people’s opinions on it.
Olympic committee rules on trans athletes competing - “they’re the experts trust their decisions”
Olympic committee rules on athletes testing positive for - “they’re not the experts this is silly!"Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know what’s What regarding the two Namibian women who got told no at the Olympics regarding their testosterone levels, they might have had a fraction above the accepted range (which is silly if that’s the case and possibly unfair/negligible) or maybe they have the same range as a cisgender man (which would basically make them transition because trans men take testo shots and well you see what happens).. I don’t know, but you also don’t know what level they have! But regarding the whole argument on sizing, are we gonna measure cis women and if they have “men” proportion they are out? Of course not as you said it’s gods gift So let’s stop pretending here, and just say that you hate the fact that a trans woman was allowed to attend the games, and that trans people shouldn’t compete at all (unless we do our own division - which again, if they do I’ll go take gold in lifting a Chanel bag because .. 1 trans athlete vs XXXXX amount of cisgender athletes at the Olympics. The number is extremely low - y’all here saying we will take over the world lol) | |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions. The only thing I’ll give you is the fact that height and a general proportion won’t change after puberty BUT there’s a small shrinkage (of course you won’t go from being 6’0” for example , to 5’2” if you take HRT) But then again women naturally can be 6’1” , or bigger. I don’t know if you were hiding under a rock, but have you seen some of the athletes in lifting? Literally weren’t that different looking compared to Laurel lol Regarding muscles and fibres and density of the bones, as said, they get affected. The more we are on it and the more muscle we lose (it’s known) and bone density too on certain meds. So. I know it isn’t the same but I noticed about this lack of strength, when on yoga classes all the other women could keep hold of positions for the amount of time and my body just gave up half way and I had to apologise to my teacher as my body just couldn’t do as I wanted it to do (and I used to be able to, no problem , prior hormones btw) ANYWAY, lol will we ever agree on something thick?
his is all anecdotal evidence and until we have clear scientific evidence that HRT lowers these to such an extent that it’s not an advantage I still don’t think they should compete.
And yeah I’ve seen some of the women, they’re genetic specimens. But still, born women. So their size is a god given gift. Completely different to a trans athlete.
And I noticed you didn’t touch on the advantage given through years of training on a males level of test? Wonder why
I just find it weird. If a natural born women is even a cunt hair over what that deemed “fair” then they are out.
But a MtF trans athlete, with all these possible advantages, that’s fair?
Until the science is absolutely concrete the whether these advantages exist, for the sake of fairness. They shouldn’t be able to compete.
And even then I’d say we’re still on shaky grounds. Because if you live for a man for 30 years then transition there’s absolutely no way we can quantify if any of those advantages of being a man for 30 years still exist.
It just seems off to me.
“Hey you, natural born woman, you have 1mg too high natural test production, your out!”
“Hey, you over there, with your male sized hands, male height/size advantage, male proportions, and 30 years of living and training with a males level of test, this is all completely fair, get in there with the ladies!”
It’s just weird. Also people’s opinions on it.
Olympic committee rules on trans athletes competing - “they’re the experts trust their decisions”
Olympic committee rules on athletes testing positive for - “they’re not the experts this is silly!
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know what’s What regarding the two Namibian women who got told no at the Olympics regarding their testosterone levels, they might have had a fraction above the accepted range (which is silly if that’s the case and possibly
unfair/negligible) or maybe they have the same range as a cisgender man (which would basically make them transition because trans men take testo shots and well you see what happens).. I don’t know, but you also don’t know what level they have!
But regarding the whole argument on sizing, are we gonna measure cis women and if they have “men” proportion they are out? Of course not as you said it’s gods gift
So let’s stop pretending here, and just say that you hate the fact that a trans woman was allowed to attend the games, and that trans people shouldn’t compete at all (unless we do our own division - which again, if they do I’ll go take gold in lifting a Chanel bag because .. 1 trans athlete vs XXXXX amount of cisgender athletes at the Olympics. The number is extremely low - y’all here saying we will take over the world lol)
"I’m not pretending, that’s exactly my view. Trans people shouldn’t compete in non trans categories in my opinion. It’s not fair. That’s always been my stance, no pretending, no shame and no hiding it. I don’t think there’s nearly enough science to even begin to unravel the advantages at hand. And im all about fair competition over feelings or acceptance or inclusiveness | |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions. The only thing I’ll give you is the fact that height and a general proportion won’t change after puberty BUT there’s a small shrinkage (of course you won’t go from being 6’0” for example , to 5’2” if you take HRT) But then again women naturally can be 6’1” , or bigger. I don’t know if you were hiding under a rock, but have you seen some of the athletes in lifting? Literally weren’t that different looking compared to Laurel lol Regarding muscles and fibres and density of the bones, as said, they get affected. The more we are on it and the more muscle we lose (it’s known) and bone density too on certain meds. So. I know it isn’t the same but I noticed about this lack of strength, when on yoga classes all the other women could keep hold of positions for the amount of time and my body just gave up half way and I had to apologise to my teacher as my body just couldn’t do as I wanted it to do (and I used to be able to, no problem , prior hormones btw) ANYWAY, lol will we ever agree on something thick?
his is all anecdotal evidence and until we have clear scientific evidence that HRT lowers these to such an extent that it’s not an advantage I still don’t think they should compete.
And yeah I’ve seen some of the women, they’re genetic specimens. But still, born women. So their size is a god given gift. Completely different to a trans athlete.
And I noticed you didn’t touch on the advantage given through years of training on a males level of test? Wonder why
I just find it weird. If a natural born women is even a cunt hair over what that deemed “fair” then they are out.
But a MtF trans athlete, with all these possible advantages, that’s fair?
Until the science is absolutely concrete the whether these advantages exist, for the sake of fairness. They shouldn’t be able to compete.
And even then I’d say we’re still on shaky grounds. Because if you live for a man for 30 years then transition there’s absolutely no way we can quantify if any of those advantages of being a man for 30 years still exist.
It just seems off to me.
“Hey you, natural born woman, you have 1mg too high natural test production, your out!”
“Hey, you over there, with your male sized hands, male height/size advantage, male proportions, and 30 years of living and training with a males level of test, this is all completely fair, get in there with the ladies!”
It’s just weird. Also people’s opinions on it.
Olympic committee rules on trans athletes competing - “they’re the experts trust their decisions”
Olympic committee rules on athletes testing positive for - “they’re not the experts this is silly!
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know what’s What regarding the two Namibian women who got told no at the Olympics regarding their testosterone levels, they might have had a fraction above the accepted range (which is silly if that’s the case and possibly
unfair/negligible) or maybe they have the same range as a cisgender man (which would basically make them transition because trans men take testo shots and well you see what happens).. I don’t know, but you also don’t know what level they have!
But regarding the whole argument on sizing, are we gonna measure cis women and if they have “men” proportion they are out? Of course not as you said it’s gods gift
So let’s stop pretending here, and just say that you hate the fact that a trans woman was allowed to attend the games, and that trans people shouldn’t compete at all (unless we do our own division - which again, if they do I’ll go take gold in lifting a Chanel bag because .. 1 trans athlete vs XXXXX amount of cisgender athletes at the Olympics. The number is extremely low - y’all here saying we will take over the world lol)
I’m not pretending, that’s exactly my view.
Trans people shouldn’t compete in non trans categories in my opinion. It’s not fair. That’s always been my stance, no pretending, no shame and no hiding it.
I don’t think there’s nearly enough science to even begin to unravel the advantages at hand. And im all about fair competition over feelings or acceptance or inclusiveness"But it’s not just a feeling … I’m pretty sure she didn’t choose to be the way she is, like I didn’t. This whole bull of let’s do the category for, where does it stop? One of us wins miss world and it’s outrage because we pushed out a cis woman, one of us compete in the Olympics and it’s outrage for the same reason, win an Oscar for best actress and still probably get booed saying we snatch from a bio woman. U see the joke?  totally invalidating. And again, it’s not a feeling like today I feel sad, and tomorrow I feel happy. It’s WAY deeper, it’s who we are. But I don’t expect you to ever understand as you are in the lucky majority, who is in the right body. | |||
| |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions. The only thing I’ll give you is the fact that height and a general proportion won’t change after puberty BUT there’s a small shrinkage (of course you won’t go from being 6’0” for example , to 5’2” if you take HRT) But then again women naturally can be 6’1” , or bigger. I don’t know if you were hiding under a rock, but have you seen some of the athletes in lifting? Literally weren’t that different looking compared to Laurel lol Regarding muscles and fibres and density of the bones, as said, they get affected. The more we are on it and the more muscle we lose (it’s known) and bone density too on certain meds. So. I know it isn’t the same but I noticed about this lack of strength, when on yoga classes all the other women could keep hold of positions for the amount of time and my body just gave up half way and I had to apologise to my teacher as my body just couldn’t do as I wanted it to do (and I used to be able to, no problem , prior hormones btw) ANYWAY, lol will we ever agree on something thick?
his is all anecdotal evidence and until we have clear scientific evidence that HRT lowers these to such an extent that it’s not an advantage I still don’t think they should compete.
And yeah I’ve seen some of the women, they’re genetic specimens. But still, born women. So their size is a god given gift. Completely different to a trans athlete.
And I noticed you didn’t touch on the advantage given through years of training on a males level of test? Wonder why
I just find it weird. If a natural born women is even a cunt hair over what that deemed “fair” then they are out.
But a MtF trans athlete, with all these possible advantages, that’s fair?
Until the science is absolutely concrete the whether these advantages exist, for the sake of fairness. They shouldn’t be able to compete.
And even then I’d say we’re still on shaky grounds. Because if you live for a man for 30 years then transition there’s absolutely no way we can quantify if any of those advantages of being a man for 30 years still exist.
It just seems off to me.
“Hey you, natural born woman, you have 1mg too high natural test production, your out!”
“Hey, you over there, with your male sized hands, male height/size advantage, male proportions, and 30 years of living and training with a males level of test, this is all completely fair, get in there with the ladies!”
It’s just weird. Also people’s opinions on it.
Olympic committee rules on trans athletes competing - “they’re the experts trust their decisions”
Olympic committee rules on athletes testing positive for - “they’re not the experts this is silly!
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know what’s What regarding the two Namibian women who got told no at the Olympics regarding their testosterone levels, they might have had a fraction above the accepted range (which is silly if that’s the case and possibly
unfair/negligible) or maybe they have the same range as a cisgender man (which would basically make them transition because trans men take testo shots and well you see what happens).. I don’t know, but you also don’t know what level they have!
But regarding the whole argument on sizing, are we gonna measure cis women and if they have “men” proportion they are out? Of course not as you said it’s gods gift
So let’s stop pretending here, and just say that you hate the fact that a trans woman was allowed to attend the games, and that trans people shouldn’t compete at all (unless we do our own division - which again, if they do I’ll go take gold in lifting a Chanel bag because .. 1 trans athlete vs XXXXX amount of cisgender athletes at the Olympics. The number is extremely low - y’all here saying we will take over the world lol)
I’m not pretending, that’s exactly my view.
Trans people shouldn’t compete in non trans categories in my opinion. It’s not fair. That’s always been my stance, no pretending, no shame and no hiding it.
I don’t think there’s nearly enough science to even begin to unravel the advantages at hand. And im all about fair competition over feelings or acceptance or inclusiveness"And your message tell us that we basically can’t achieve anything if we transition. (Anything that involves competing unless it’s a mixed men’s+women’s) | |||
"I think it's a grey area, Shag. My guy instinct is that of its natural, then why not? I mean height can be a massive advantage in some sports - as far as I'm aware, you're not excluded from basketball ball if you're 7ft or deemed to have an unfair advantage! But, where excessive androgens CAN improve timings/strength and athletes are increasingly androgenous, it can be open to abuse from the unscrupulous. I just feel for these 2 young girls - as I did for Caster - having to undergo such invasive tests & having the world scrutinising your body. " Perfectly said! | |||
| |||
"They will never do a trans only event as simply barely anyone would watch it. The ROI would be pointless and all these events are really about money : viewing figures. Plus many countries wouldn’t submit trans athletes as it would go against their laws of not promoting lgbt ideology (looking at you China / Russia / Poland / Hungary / Africa states etc ) "But also, how many trans athletes are really out there that could compete as Olympians?? Let’s be honest we could probably join if they did it, me as a rhythmic gymnast and you as a synchro diver lol (for example) 
People make it sound like transgender are half the population lol | |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions. The only thing I’ll give you is the fact that height and a general proportion won’t change after puberty BUT there’s a small shrinkage (of course you won’t go from being 6’0” for example , to 5’2” if you take HRT) But then again women naturally can be 6’1” , or bigger. I don’t know if you were hiding under a rock, but have you seen some of the athletes in lifting? Literally weren’t that different looking compared to Laurel lol Regarding muscles and fibres and density of the bones, as said, they get affected. The more we are on it and the more muscle we lose (it’s known) and bone density too on certain meds. So. I know it isn’t the same but I noticed about this lack of strength, when on yoga classes all the other women could keep hold of positions for the amount of time and my body just gave up half way and I had to apologise to my teacher as my body just couldn’t do as I wanted it to do (and I used to be able to, no problem , prior hormones btw) ANYWAY, lol will we ever agree on something thick?
his is all anecdotal evidence and until we have clear scientific evidence that HRT lowers these to such an extent that it’s not an advantage I still don’t think they should compete.
And yeah I’ve seen some of the women, they’re genetic specimens. But still, born women. So their size is a god given gift. Completely different to a trans athlete.
And I noticed you didn’t touch on the advantage given through years of training on a males level of test? Wonder why
I just find it weird. If a natural born women is even a cunt hair over what that deemed “fair” then they are out.
But a MtF trans athlete, with all these possible advantages, that’s fair?
Until the science is absolutely concrete the whether these advantages exist, for the sake of fairness. They shouldn’t be able to compete.
And even then I’d say we’re still on shaky grounds. Because if you live for a man for 30 years then transition there’s absolutely no way we can quantify if any of those advantages of being a man for 30 years still exist.
It just seems off to me.
“Hey you, natural born woman, you have 1mg too high natural test production, your out!”
“Hey, you over there, with your male sized hands, male height/size advantage, male proportions, and 30 years of living and training with a males level of test, this is all completely fair, get in there with the ladies!”
It’s just weird. Also people’s opinions on it.
Olympic committee rules on trans athletes competing - “they’re the experts trust their decisions”
Olympic committee rules on athletes testing positive for - “they’re not the experts this is silly!
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know what’s What regarding the two Namibian women who got told no at the Olympics regarding their testosterone levels, they might have had a fraction above the accepted range (which is silly if that’s the case and possibly
unfair/negligible) or maybe they have the same range as a cisgender man (which would basically make them transition because trans men take testo shots and well you see what happens).. I don’t know, but you also don’t know what level they have!
But regarding the whole argument on sizing, are we gonna measure cis women and if they have “men” proportion they are out? Of course not as you said it’s gods gift
So let’s stop pretending here, and just say that you hate the fact that a trans woman was allowed to attend the games, and that trans people shouldn’t compete at all (unless we do our own division - which again, if they do I’ll go take gold in lifting a Chanel bag because .. 1 trans athlete vs XXXXX amount of cisgender athletes at the Olympics. The number is extremely low - y’all here saying we will take over the world lol)
I’m not pretending, that’s exactly my view.
Trans people shouldn’t compete in non trans categories in my opinion. It’s not fair. That’s always been my stance, no pretending, no shame and no hiding it.
I don’t think there’s nearly enough science to even begin to unravel the advantages at hand. And im all about fair competition over feelings or acceptance or inclusiveness
But it’s not just a feeling … I’m pretty sure she didn’t choose to be the way she is, like I didn’t.
This whole bull of let’s do the category for, where does it stop? One of us wins miss world and it’s outrage because we pushed out a cis woman, one of us compete in the Olympics and it’s outrage for the same reason, win an Oscar for best actress and still probably get booed saying we snatch from a bio woman.
U see the joke? totally invalidating. And again, it’s not a feeling like today I feel sad, and tomorrow I feel happy. It’s WAY deeper, it’s who we are. But I don’t expect you to ever understand as you are in the lucky majority, who is in the right body. "The thing is, I don’t bother myself with the where does it end thing, where does it go from here etc. Coz I don’t care. Until we can absolutely say without a doubt that there isn’t an advantage, it shouldn’t be allowed. Isn’t that what fair sports is about? So if the science isn’t fully understood, isn’t the answer obvious? Like in your opinion, considering we can’t say for sure whether there isn’t an advantage, so you think we just let it happen? How does that seem fair? Honestly I really struggle to understand the thinking behind it. I’m always open to listening, but it just seems to clear cut to me. Until we can rule out an advantage, we have to rule out the issue. I feel like there’s 2 sides to it. One side that wants fair competition The other that wants everyone to feel accepted and included. Basically fair sports vs fair feelings | |||
"How strange that a born woman with naturally high test isn’t allowed to compete But a born man, turned woman, taking drugs to artificially lower test, but with male proportions, male hands, male muscle fibres, male bone density, and years upon years of training with the advantage of high test levels can compete At this point the Olympic is just a joke and I feel sorry for any athletes that train their entire life to get a shot at it Oh cry me a river!!!!!! The women in question with higher testosterone when confronted about why not take medication to lower the testosterone said Quote on quote "I would ruin the way my body develops because that'll be something that rearranges everything - how my body functions and everything," says Masilingi And SO much for your unfair advantage when you were spitting feathers about Laurel … Spiro changes the density of bones too (hence why we get monitored as can break more easily) I wouldn’t expect someone that doesn’t compete to understand the inherent advantages of being a man most of your life, so if that’s your opinion it’s fine. But that’s mine. At this point I wouldn’t be surprised to see lots of athletes just boycotting the Olympics all together and competing in other, more fair competitions Which is a shame because the olympics is something truly magical at its core. I just dunno how all these strangers rules have come in and ruined everything. Again, we may never agree on the subject but being butt hurt because one single (and first ever out of thousands of athletes) trans athlete managed to attend (and fail) something magical like the Olympics and saying that it’s shameful. I don’t know, makes me wonder why.. And I may not understand as I’m not an athlete, but also you may never understand how HRT affects our bodies. It’s very powerful stuff and rewires not only the brain, but it affects the body too But yeah, you are right on one thing, I’d probably be able to enter the category of lifting the weight of a Chanel bag lolol I think the main thing people forget is the male proportions + the years of training as a guy. Both those things don’t disappear when you transition. And both those things give you an advantage. Women use a thinner bar than the men because woman on average have smaller hands. Laurel isn’t part of that average. That’s just one physical advantage. Men have denser, faster, stronger muscle fibres. We don’t currently have science backing up that it goes away after transitioning, that could potentially be an advantage. Testosterone allows for better recover, which means more training without becoming too fatigued or over training. Laurel had years of training with a males amount of test. This allows for higher training volumes, more practise, less injuries, greater recovery. All these things are ad advantage when it comes to highly technical lifts like the clean and snatch. I don’t even care where she placed. I don’t think it was fair. We will never see eye to eye about this though. So there’s no point getting too deep into it. I think the athletes that really care will just find other competitions. The only thing I’ll give you is the fact that height and a general proportion won’t change after puberty BUT there’s a small shrinkage (of course you won’t go from being 6’0” for example , to 5’2” if you take HRT) But then again women naturally can be 6’1” , or bigger. I don’t know if you were hiding under a rock, but have you seen some of the athletes in lifting? Literally weren’t that different looking compared to Laurel lol Regarding muscles and fibres and density of the bones, as said, they get affected. The more we are on it and the more muscle we lose (it’s known) and bone density too on certain meds. So. I know it isn’t the same but I noticed about this lack of strength, when on yoga classes all the other women could keep hold of positions for the amount of time and my body just gave up half way and I had to apologise to my teacher as my body just couldn’t do as I wanted it to do (and I used to be able to, no problem , prior hormones btw) ANYWAY, lol will we ever agree on something thick?
his is all anecdotal evidence and until we have clear scientific evidence that HRT lowers these to such an extent that it’s not an advantage I still don’t think they should compete.
And yeah I’ve seen some of the women, they’re genetic specimens. But still, born women. So their size is a god given gift. Completely different to a trans athlete.
And I noticed you didn’t touch on the advantage given through years of training on a males level of test? Wonder why
I just find it weird. If a natural born women is even a cunt hair over what that deemed “fair” then they are out.
But a MtF trans athlete, with all these possible advantages, that’s fair?
Until the science is absolutely concrete the whether these advantages exist, for the sake of fairness. They shouldn’t be able to compete.
And even then I’d say we’re still on shaky grounds. Because if you live for a man for 30 years then transition there’s absolutely no way we can quantify if any of those advantages of being a man for 30 years still exist.
It just seems off to me.
“Hey you, natural born woman, you have 1mg too high natural test production, your out!”
“Hey, you over there, with your male sized hands, male height/size advantage, male proportions, and 30 years of living and training with a males level of test, this is all completely fair, get in there with the ladies!”
It’s just weird. Also people’s opinions on it.
Olympic committee rules on trans athletes competing - “they’re the experts trust their decisions”
Olympic committee rules on athletes testing positive for - “they’re not the experts this is silly!
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t know what’s What regarding the two Namibian women who got told no at the Olympics regarding their testosterone levels, they might have had a fraction above the accepted range (which is silly if that’s the case and possibly
unfair/negligible) or maybe they have the same range as a cisgender man (which would basically make them transition because trans men take testo shots and well you see what happens).. I don’t know, but you also don’t know what level they have!
But regarding the whole argument on sizing, are we gonna measure cis women and if they have “men” proportion they are out? Of course not as you said it’s gods gift
So let’s stop pretending here, and just say that you hate the fact that a trans woman was allowed to attend the games, and that trans people shouldn’t compete at all (unless we do our own division - which again, if they do I’ll go take gold in lifting a Chanel bag because .. 1 trans athlete vs XXXXX amount of cisgender athletes at the Olympics. The number is extremely low - y’all here saying we will take over the world lol)
I’m not pretending, that’s exactly my view.
Trans people shouldn’t compete in non trans categories in my opinion. It’s not fair. That’s always been my stance, no pretending, no shame and no hiding it.
I don’t think there’s nearly enough science to even begin to unravel the advantages at hand. And im all about fair competition over feelings or acceptance or inclusiveness
But it’s not just a feeling … I’m pretty sure she didn’t choose to be the way she is, like I didn’t.
This whole bull of let’s do the category for, where does it stop? One of us wins miss world and it’s outrage because we pushed out a cis woman, one of us compete in the Olympics and it’s outrage for the same reason, win an Oscar for best actress and still probably get booed saying we snatch from a bio woman.
U see the joke? totally invalidating. And again, it’s not a feeling like today I feel sad, and tomorrow I feel happy. It’s WAY deeper, it’s who we are. But I don’t expect you to ever understand as you are in the lucky majority, who is in the right body.
The thing is, I don’t bother myself with the where does it end thing, where does it go from here etc. Coz I don’t care.
Until we can absolutely say without a doubt that there isn’t an advantage, it shouldn’t be allowed.
Isn’t that what fair sports is about? So if the science isn’t fully understood, isn’t the answer obvious?
Like in your opinion, considering we can’t say for sure whether there isn’t an advantage, so you think we just let it happen? How does that seem fair?
Honestly I really struggle to understand the thinking behind it. I’m always open to listening, but it just seems to clear cut to me. Until we can rule out an advantage, we have to rule out the issue.
I feel like there’s 2 sides to it.
One side that wants fair competition
The other that wants everyone to feel accepted and included.
Basically fair sports vs fair feelings "Well so fair it seems like HRT has proved that it’s in fact quite a handicap … But it’s pointless talking further as you just said trans women shouldn’t be competing. And that’s your stance. I don’t think the Olympics are gonna lose out much from ur boycott about that one trans athlete disagreement | |||
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"Or they could tack in a few extra events to allow for trans / non trans to compete together but it’s an opt in event for non trans persons to decide . I am sure there is many athletes that just want to get experience and compete as much as possible , guess only issue is those That choose not to would be harassed online as phobic xyz " The shit I read online about Laurel… from constant misgendering her on purpose, to all the mean things. I feel sorry for her but also super proud she made history in being able to go! | |||
