FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Anders Breivik
Anders Breivik
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"not qualified or in receipt of the information the judges had tbh..
having said that, 'normal folk' dont do what he did and for the reasons he said..."
I agree. But I can see that a verdict of insanity would leave people feeling he had got away with it. Even though a sanity verdict will probably give him a platform to speak from and a following. |
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By *els_BellsWoman
over a year ago
with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc |
Tough one.
I dont think anyone sane could do what he did, but after watching the Ian Brady thing the other night, I think he (brady) is insanely evil and not suffering from the whole mental illness they have said.
Breivk is a tough one, I thnk he appears insane but then he's an extremist so maybe he just appears insane to me.
If that makes any sense.
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
well he wanted to be taken seriously.. so I don't see where he could have been insane....
does he get 21 years for each murder, or 21 years in total? because it still seems lenient for what he did.... |
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By *els_BellsWoman
over a year ago
with the moon n stars somewhere in gtr manc |
"They seem to be saying that he has the full 21 years but that it could be extended? I wish I understood the language."
Cant believe that is all he can get.
Think I read on sky news yesterday he has had 3 cells converted into one, with a state of the art gym  |
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"not qualified or in receipt of the information the judges had tbh..
having said that, 'normal folk' dont do what he did and for the reasons he said...
I agree. But I can see that a verdict of insanity would leave people feeling he had got away with it. Even though a sanity verdict will probably give him a platform to speak from and a following."
agree with your thoughts on the insanity issue, tbh he had a 'following' the day after and maybe before..
still think he was'nt alone in the logistics etc for the car bomb..
deluded idealogues will see him like the Oklahoma mcvey guy as an icon in the same sense that others _iew bin laden..
positive that the majority in Norway (of all ethnic backgrounds and cultures) are united against such extremism.. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"well he wanted to be taken seriously.. so I don't see where he could have been insane....
does he get 21 years for each murder, or 21 years in total? because it still seems lenient for what he did...."
It's 21 years in total - the maximum they can give. But they are saying that he will be assessed every 5 years and his sentence can be extended if he is assessed as dangerous. I think they have had to really explore the whole jurisprudence to try and get to that verdict. |
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By *abioMan
over a year ago
Newcastle and Gateshead |
"well he wanted to be taken seriously.. so I don't see where he could have been insane....
does he get 21 years for each murder, or 21 years in total? because it still seems lenient for what he did....
It's 21 years in total - the maximum they can give. But they are saying that he will be assessed every 5 years and his sentence can be extended if he is assessed as dangerous. I think they have had to really explore the whole jurisprudence to try and get to that verdict."
so in theory if they consider him to be a danger to society (which they obviously will because there is no remorse) he could spend the rest of his life inside.. but in extended 5 yr stretches.
okay... that makes sense.... |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"well he wanted to be taken seriously.. so I don't see where he could have been insane....
does he get 21 years for each murder, or 21 years in total? because it still seems lenient for what he did....
It's 21 years in total - the maximum they can give. But they are saying that he will be assessed every 5 years and his sentence can be extended if he is assessed as dangerous. I think they have had to really explore the whole jurisprudence to try and get to that verdict.
so in theory if they consider him to be a danger to society (which they obviously will because there is no remorse) he could spend the rest of his life inside.. but in extended 5 yr stretches.
okay... that makes sense...."
Potentially... I can't get to the nuances yet of how long the extensions can continue. But, Norway being as fair as it is will want to ensure he is not treated differently to other prisoners.
For Breivik he can now say that he is a political prisoner... his politics clashed with the mainstream. It will be interesting to see how the political mainstream changes Norway's laws following the decision.
It's just so awful to think of killing 77 people like that and for such reasons as sane. But then I have never really understood terrorism and why people can hate other races and creeds so much. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"They seem to be saying that he has the full 21 years but that it could be extended? I wish I understood the language.
Cant believe that is all he can get.
Think I read on sky news yesterday he has had 3 cells converted into one, with a state of the art gym "
That's just been explained - it's Norway and he has a special regime. It is unlikely to be held in a prison. It's not the crime that determines the treatment as prison is not punishment in Norway but treatment and rehabilitation. He is locked away to protect others not to punish him. |
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Im not sure how they classify insanity or sanity, but i think its something to do with where they aware of what they where doing at the time of the crime. Obviously i know nothing about the laws in Norway. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"Im not sure how they classify insanity or sanity, but i think its something to do with where they aware of what they where doing at the time of the crime. Obviously i know nothing about the laws in Norway."
The sentence would be different if he were deemed insane but the actual outcome would be very similar it would seem. Prison or mental institution he would detained to keep others safe but would be treated and rehabilitated. As it is they are unlikely to keep him in a prison.
It has made me curious to look at the Norwegian prison system and compare it to the mental health system. It has also made me question my own _iews on prison reform here. Lots of think about. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Just so we are all clear, 21 years is the maximum sentance available in Norway.... if he is judged to be a danger at the time of his release he will be retained in the system.
He is being given special quarters as he is likely to be in danger from other inmates and all governments (Norwegian and UK being imaterial) have a duty of care to inmates to ensure their safety from other inmates.....
In the UK, just as in Norway, one is not sent to prison so that they can be punished. Being imprisoned IS the punishment. Withdrawl of liberty is deemed to be punishment and any one who thinks, even with playstations TVs and toilets in cells, that prison is a nice place has no idea what they are talking about..... Prisons have been expected to attempt to rehabilitate convicts since the days of Elizabeth Fry in the 19th century.
Breavik was a nutter but only a little worse than some of the loonies we have all come across, the only difference being that he became so disconnected that he went and did what he felt like doing. Having spent lots of time watching YouTube videos there are huge numbers of people who are out of their minds, but they aren't criminaly insane as they (and Breavik) know what they are doing....... |
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By *roy9Man
over a year ago
london |
There is a difference between insanity and having dangerous ideas that leads to the 'wrong' kind of thinking and action. You only need to think of islamofascism or the many people who carried out despicable acts in Nazi Germany.
Interestingly Ian Brady hates his time in the secure mental hospital and would much rather be in a regular prison, eventhough he would still be in solitary confinement. For him the hospital is more of a punishment and he has apparently been on hunger strike, wanting to be moved, for an incredible 12 years. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"There is a difference between insanity and having dangerous ideas that leads to the 'wrong' kind of thinking and action. You only need to think of islamofascism or the many people who carried out despicable acts in Nazi Germany.
Interestingly Ian Brady hates his time in the secure mental hospital and would much rather be in a regular prison, eventhough he would still be in solitary confinement. For him the hospital is more of a punishment and he has apparently been on hunger strike, wanting to be moved, for an incredible 12 years."
Welcome to the forums.
I think there is something to be said for mental health institutions being worse than many prisons. The regime can feel more like punishment than rehabilitation. |
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"There is a difference between insanity and having dangerous ideas that leads to the 'wrong' kind of thinking and action. You only need to think of islamofascism or the many people who carried out despicable acts in Nazi Germany.
Interestingly Ian Brady hates his time in the secure mental hospital and would much rather be in a regular prison, eventhough he would still be in solitary confinement. For him the hospital is more of a punishment and he has apparently been on hunger strike, wanting to be moved, for an incredible 12 years."
Bosnia, East Timor, Rwanda, Cambodia..are all testament to how normal, sane people can commit and rationalise acts of extraordinary evil against a 'perceived threat', be it religious, political, economic or racial. |
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By *odareyouMan
over a year ago
not far from iceland,,,,,, tescos is nearer though :-) (near leeds) |
I've heard on the one o'clock news that he's been sentenced to 21,but he's got to serve a minimum of ten years..  . I must have heard wrong..???  |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"There is a difference between insanity and having dangerous ideas that leads to the 'wrong' kind of thinking and action. You only need to think of islamofascism or the many people who carried out despicable acts in Nazi Germany.
Interestingly Ian Brady hates his time in the secure mental hospital and would much rather be in a regular prison, eventhough he would still be in solitary confinement. For him the hospital is more of a punishment and he has apparently been on hunger strike, wanting to be moved, for an incredible 12 years.
Bosnia, East Timor, Rwanda, Cambodia..are all testament to how normal, sane people can commit and rationalise acts of extraordinary evil against a 'perceived threat', be it religious, political, economic or racial. "
Sad but true. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
"I've heard on the one o'clock news that he's been sentenced to 21,but he's got to serve a minimum of ten years.. . I must have heard wrong..??? "
That's correct. He's not eligible for release for 10 years. His 21 years already has over a year served for time held in custody. Twentyone year is the maximum sentence in Norway, however, he will be assessed and can be held longer if he is felt to be a danger to society. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I say shoot the fucker and save everyone the expense of keeping him and others like him imprisoned.
Hang him nice and slow
Hope he rots the c@#t"
The majority of Norwegians, including a friend of mine in Oslo whose child was among Breivik's victims, would reject such attitudes as barbaric and as out of place in the 21st century as cutting off the hands of people who steal. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I say shoot the fucker and save everyone the expense of keeping him and others like him imprisoned.
Hang him nice and slow
Hope he rots the c@#t
The majority of Norwegians, including a friend of mine in Oslo whose child was among Breivik's victims, would reject such attitudes as barbaric and as out of place in the 21st century as cutting off the hands of people who steal. "
Absolutely. Capital punishment is not punishment its revenge and leaves no room for redemption and reformation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I say shoot the fucker and save everyone the expense of keeping him and others like him imprisoned.
Hang him nice and slow
Hope he rots the c@#t
The majority of Norwegians, including a friend of mine in Oslo whose child was among Breivik's victims, would reject such attitudes as barbaric and as out of place in the 21st century as cutting off the hands of people who steal.
Absolutely. Capital punishment is not punishment its revenge and leaves no room for redemption and reformation."
For people such as him and others who have commited such crimes, a shotgun round can be made for less than 20p. The system will spends hundreds of thousands if not millions protecting these scum.
I have an oppinion just the same as everyone else.
One man took many lives, I see it only fair that his life is taken too. Not for revenge, not for malice but for justice. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I say shoot the fucker and save everyone the expense of keeping him and others like him imprisoned.
Hang him nice and slow
Hope he rots the c@#t
The majority of Norwegians, including a friend of mine in Oslo whose child was among Breivik's victims, would reject such attitudes as barbaric and as out of place in the 21st century as cutting off the hands of people who steal.
Absolutely. Capital punishment is not punishment its revenge and leaves no room for redemption and reformation.
For people such as him and others who have commited such crimes, a shotgun round can be made for less than 20p. The system will spends hundreds of thousands if not millions protecting these scum.
I have an oppinion just the same as everyone else.
One man took many lives, I see it only fair that his life is taken too. Not for revenge, not for malice but for justice."
Sorry but you are wrong. An eye for an eye is not justice its vengence (torturing to death would be malice, but thats not the issue mentioned).....
Justice is having someone stew on their crimes with the expectation of repentance.... It may be that Breavik will never repent and ask for forgiveness. He believes that his acts were necesary and were fundamentaly political in nature. So do Tony Blair, as did Thatcher, Eden, Pol Pot et al and their actions saw far more people killed.
I would rather see someone express contrition for a criminal act
than see them swing if for no other reason than contrition produces no martyrs..... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Well there are two types of prison systems...One is a rehabilitative affair designed to pacify and encourage non-recidivism and the other is a punitive, hostile and oppressive dungeon that should act as a suitable deterrent.
Both are a waste of time with this loon, they should set him loose on that little island and let the victims' family members hunt him down like the dog he is. I heard he's got hios own personal gym, 2 plasma tv's own kitchen, private garden and people from the community (groups and individuals) PAID to be his 'friends'...
mental note: must kill a few more people this week. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I say shoot the fucker and save everyone the expense of keeping him and others like him imprisoned.
Hang him nice and slow
Hope he rots the c@#t
The majority of Norwegians, including a friend of mine in Oslo whose child was among Breivik's victims, would reject such attitudes as barbaric and as out of place in the 21st century as cutting off the hands of people who steal.
Absolutely. Capital punishment is not punishment its revenge and leaves no room for redemption and reformation.
For people such as him and others who have commited such crimes, a shotgun round can be made for less than 20p. The system will spends hundreds of thousands if not millions protecting these scum.
I have an oppinion just the same as everyone else.
One man took many lives, I see it only fair that his life is taken too. Not for revenge, not for malice but for justice.
Sorry but you are wrong. An eye for an eye is not justice its vengence (torturing to death would be malice, but thats not the issue mentioned).....
Justice is having someone stew on their crimes with the expectation of repentance.... It may be that Breavik will never repent and ask for forgiveness. He believes that his acts were necesary and were fundamentaly political in nature. So do Tony Blair, as did Thatcher, Eden, Pol Pot et al and their actions saw far more people killed.
I would rather see someone express contrition for a criminal act
than see them swing if for no other reason than contrition produces no martyrs....."
Its my oppinion he should be shot, the same as his 69 innocent victims.
He took their lives without a second thought, his crimes are unforgiveable.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Well there are two types of prison systems...One is a rehabilitative affair designed to pacify and encourage non-recidivism and the other is a punitive, hostile and oppressive dungeon that should act as a suitable deterrent.
Both are a waste of time with this loon, they should set him loose on that little island and let the victims' family members hunt him down like the dog he is. I heard he's got hios own personal gym, 2 plasma tv's own kitchen, private garden and people from the community (groups and individuals) PAID to be his 'friends'...
mental note: must kill a few more people this week."
I agree till the last comment feel that was totaly out of order My opinion only |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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there is no harm in wanting revenge, or to see him suffer-most of us would think this especially if it involved someone close to us.Thats what makes us human.
However, for most of us- the actual will to carry out such a death penalty on someone is beyond us...no matter what they have done.Not because of fear of reprisal, but a fear for ones own humanity.
I would not hesitate to defend myself/or another person against someone who I think(pretty obviously) who was about to kill someone.I know however, it would haunt me taking another persons life as well as rejoicing I've saved my/someone elses life. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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the word 'loon' should be deleted from any descriptions about murderers like the above.I hate what it infers about others, who dont kill people.
maybe I'm PC on some things, but having worked with people for many years, its a word I've come to detest...especially when its mentioned in connection with the above horrific events. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Bear in mind he was initially assessed by psychiatrists to be insane, the court ordered further assessments and the second report found him sane. Not as straightforward as you would imagine. What illness would those who say he is mentally ill propose he has? If his mood is stable, he doesnt hear voices or experience hallucinations, then the only possible diagnosis is that of a delusional disorder. Which is a pretty grey area.
If he was found insane, he would actually spend more time in mental health establishments than in prison if sane. If Norways legislative system is anything like the UKs, then he could be a "restricted" patient with psychiatrists having to care for him all his days, even if he got " better" and was able to live in the community. They could impose restrictions on his life such as attending day centres etc.
The whole issue is fascinating with no obvious answer to it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"there is no harm in wanting revenge, or to see him suffer-most of us would think this especially if it involved someone close to us.Thats what makes us human.
However, for most of us- the actual will to carry out such a death penalty on someone is beyond us...no matter what they have done.Not because of fear of reprisal, but a fear for ones own humanity.
I would not hesitate to defend myself/or another person against someone who I think(pretty obviously) who was about to kill someone.I know however, it would haunt me taking another persons life as well as rejoicing I've saved my/someone elses life."
on a philosophical note i disagree with your first point, the desire for vengence is entirely harmfull. I dont agree with humanism on different grounds but even humanists agree that vengence leeads to harm for the wronged party as well as the party doing wrong (which is why the victim should have no part in the criminal justice system. Justice is dispasionate, vengence is not).
The argument on defence of ones self or another is no more murky, regardless of what reactionaries would have one think.
Listening to the families speak (on radio 4) killing this man would creat martyrs, keeping him in jail will let his crimes fade from the news agenda which runs counter to what Breavik wanted...... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"the word 'loon' should be deleted from any descriptions about murderers like the above.I hate what it infers about others, who dont kill people.
maybe I'm PC on some things, but having worked with people for many years, its a word I've come to detest...especially when its mentioned in connection with the above horrific events."
did you ever read this loon's 'manifesto'? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Think I read on sky news yesterday he has had 3 cells converted into one, with a state of the art gym "
In fairness, that is the cell he has been in since his arrest. In the eyes of the law, he was innocent until proven guilty. He was arrested in July 2011. Anyone held for that amount of time and charged has a certain amount of rights too. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"there is no harm in wanting revenge, or to see him suffer-most of us would think this especially if it involved someone close to us.Thats what makes us human.
However, for most of us- the actual will to carry out such a death penalty on someone is beyond us...no matter what they have done.Not because of fear of reprisal, but a fear for ones own humanity.
I would not hesitate to defend myself/or another person against someone who I think(pretty obviously) who was about to kill someone.I know however, it would haunt me taking another persons life as well as rejoicing I've saved my/someone elses life.
on a philosophical note i disagree with your first point, the desire for vengence is entirely harmfull. I dont agree with humanism on different grounds but even humanists agree that vengence leeads to harm for the wronged party as well as the party doing wrong (which is why the victim should have no part in the criminal justice system. Justice is dispasionate, vengence is not).
The argument on defence of ones self or another is no more murky, regardless of what reactionaries would have one think.
Listening to the families speak (on radio 4) killing this man would creat martyrs, keeping him in jail will let his crimes fade from the news agenda which runs counter to what Breavik wanted......"
I didnt mean to say wanting revenge, I meant feeling like revenge. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"They seem to be saying that he has the full 21 years but that it could be extended? I wish I understood the language."
I heard he got 19 yrs but will only serve 10 yrs, seems so incredibly disrespectful for those who died and their families, my boss worked it out to be about 2.5 yrs for every person, just so very wrong. Someone said the reason was because it was political but I don't get that, surely it was murder therefore he should have 77 life sentences with no chance of parole? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"the word 'loon' should be deleted from any descriptions about murderers like the above.I hate what it infers about others, who dont kill people.
maybe I'm PC on some things, but having worked with people for many years, its a word I've come to detest...especially when its mentioned in connection with the above horrific events.
did you ever read this loon's 'manifesto'?"
there a few like him on all extremist levels...I wouldnt bring them into any mental health debate...thats almost a newtonian clockwork universe idea...I'd rather people were held responsible for their actions on the merits of free will...something u'd find 'loons' dont have. |
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By *icketysplits OP Woman
over a year ago
Way over Yonder, that's where I'm bound |
It makes me sadder everytime I hear a news report. The fact that his apology was for not killing more. But one of those affected, just inter_iewed on R4 said that we all need to get on and live.
Then the news story about the shooting at the Empire State Building. The American response will be so markedly different.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I heard he got 19 yrs but will only serve 10 yrs, seems so incredibly disrespectful for those who died and their families, my boss worked it out to be about 2.5 yrs for every person, just so very wrong. Someone said the reason was because it was political but I don't get that, surely it was murder therefore he should have 77 life sentences with no chance of parole?"
He got sentenced to a jail term of 21 years, the maximum Norwegian law permits for the charges against him. He must serve at least 10 years, less the 440-odd days he has already been held in prison. At the end of the 10 years, the sentence will be re_iewed to determine if he should serve the remainder of the 21 years, and at the same time decide if he should remain in the same prison, or if he is able to be placed in another prison, depending on his perceived danger to those around him at that time.
I think your boss got the maths wrong, it is around 0.25 years per person killed. Not that it makes it any better.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I say shoot the fucker and save everyone the expense of keeping him and others like him imprisoned.
Hang him nice and slow
Hope he rots the c@#t
The majority of Norwegians, including a friend of mine in Oslo whose child was among Breivik's victims, would reject such attitudes as barbaric and as out of place in the 21st century as cutting off the hands of people who steal.
Absolutely. Capital punishment is not punishment its revenge and leaves no room for redemption and reformation.
For people such as him and others who have commited such crimes, a shotgun round can be made for less than 20p. The system will spends hundreds of thousands if not millions protecting these scum.
I have an oppinion just the same as everyone else.
One man took many lives, I see it only fair that his life is taken too. Not for revenge, not for malice but for justice.
Sorry but you are wrong. An eye for an eye is not justice its vengence (torturing to death would be malice, but thats not the issue mentioned).....
Justice is having someone stew on their crimes with the expectation of repentance.... It may be that Breavik will never repent and ask for forgiveness. He believes that his acts were necesary and were fundamentaly political in nature. So do Tony Blair, as did Thatcher, Eden, Pol Pot et al and their actions saw far more people killed.
I would rather see someone express contrition for a criminal act
than see them swing if for no other reason than contrition produces no martyrs....."
Fortunately no European Government including our own will plunge us back into the barbarism of the past by bringing back State Sanctioned murders. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It makes me sadder everytime I hear a news report. The fact that his apology was for not killing more. But one of those affected, just inter_iewed on R4 said that we all need to get on and live.
Then the news story about the shooting at the Empire State Building. The American response will be so markedly different.
"
Yes because the Norwegians are a highly civilised, highly educated people who don't allow themselves to be ruled by primitive emotions in matters like this.
As for the Americans well it shouldn't take the intellect of a German philosopher to notice that the Americans have both one of the highest murder rates in the world and one of the highest execution rates in the world and wonder whether there is a link...... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I say shoot the fucker and save everyone the expense of keeping him and others like him imprisoned.
Hang him nice and slow
Hope he rots the c@#t
The majority of Norwegians, including a friend of mine in Oslo whose child was among Breivik's victims, would reject such attitudes as barbaric and as out of place in the 21st century as cutting off the hands of people who steal.
Absolutely. Capital punishment is not punishment its revenge and leaves no room for redemption and reformation.
For people such as him and others who have commited such crimes, a shotgun round can be made for less than 20p. The system will spends hundreds of thousands if not millions protecting these scum.
I have an oppinion just the same as everyone else.
One man took many lives, I see it only fair that his life is taken too. Not for revenge, not for malice but for justice.
Sorry but you are wrong. An eye for an eye is not justice its vengence (torturing to death would be malice, but thats not the issue mentioned).....
Justice is having someone stew on their crimes with the expectation of repentance.... It may be that Breavik will never repent and ask for forgiveness. He believes that his acts were necesary and were fundamentaly political in nature. So do Tony Blair, as did Thatcher, Eden, Pol Pot et al and their actions saw far more people killed.
I would rather see someone express contrition for a criminal act
than see them swing if for no other reason than contrition produces no martyrs.....
Fortunately no European Government including our own will plunge us back into the barbarism of the past by bringing back State Sanctioned murders."
The man should be shot. It is my oppinion that he shouldn't draw breath now he has been found guilty of the crimes he commited.
Not only does he revel in what pain and chaos he created, he will now be parasite to the system and cost the state unjustified sums of money to protect him. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It makes me sadder everytime I hear a news report. The fact that his apology was for not killing more. But one of those affected, just inter_iewed on R4 said that we all need to get on and live.
Then the news story about the shooting at the Empire State Building. The American response will be so markedly different.
Yes because the Norwegians are a highly civilised, highly educated people who don't allow themselves to be ruled by primitive emotions in matters like this.
As for the Americans well it shouldn't take the intellect of a German philosopher to notice that the Americans have both one of the highest murder rates in the world and one of the highest execution rates in the world and wonder whether there is a link......"
personaly i dont think that there is any link between high crime rates and high execution rates but it does rather scuper the argument that execution is a deterent.
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