FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Should last mistakes cancel your future?
Should last mistakes cancel your future?
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Imagine as a teenager, you say or do something sexist or racist or unkind or unhealthy or commit a crime, maybe drink too much or take some drugs, perhaps you're unhealthy, perhaps get tagged.
You learn, develop and grow, you realise you said or did some stupid things , made some mistakes as a kid but now you know better. Because at the age of 17 you don't know everything. Maybe a prison sentence helps you become a better person. Now imagine 10 years on... You've made you're England debut as a cricketer... And some snidy journo uncovers some comments you made as a teenager. And imagine your governing body saying.."we support him / her, they made some mistakes, our sport has helped him learn from his mistakes, he realises what was said 10 years ago was wrong but it was 10 years ago and he's a very different human with very different opinions now. It's shows the power and success of education in addressing the problem.
No... That didn't happen. They banned him and cancel his career. Put it all out over national media for all to see. So the message then is... People can't and don't change... Any mistakes you make as a teenager stick with you forerever and ruin your life so if you make a mistake you may as well not bother trying to learn from them and develop from them, as a society we are unable and unwilling to forgive and accept that people are capable of learning, developing and changing.
What message do we want? Surely the whole point of, for example taking a knee is to highlight that redemption is possible with the education we are promoting.? That there is a better way of you follow the education we are promoting.? Not to say... If you have these beliefs, then you are forever blighted and there is no possibility of changing? Saying... Hey there's a problem but there is no solution? |
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Yeah cancel culture sucks!
Providing that the person in question is truly sorry for what they said, makes reparations for it etc then why should their life be affected?
I turn to ru Paul's drag race down under. One of the contestants admitted to doing shows in their early years wearing blackface. Ru raised it in the show and gave them the opportunity to apologise and make clear that they were sorry for what they did. The end. They weren't kicked off or made an example of.
By cancelling people we are saying that no one can ever change. No one can grow and understand that their actions when they were younger were wrong.
I do think though that the younger generations on social media need to be more aware that what they say online is pretty permanent. Even if they delete it, someone else will have saved it or quoted it etc. |
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But they haven't banned him and cancelled his career. He has been suspended pending an investigation .
He will no doubt face some sanction and then be free to play test cricket.
Rightly so in my opinion. |
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"The world we live in ...
People are always going to try and break people down make them look bad and kick them in the nuts rather than saying what a turn around someone has made   
"
There's a great story here...
About a man who made some mistakes along the way but with prison, hard work, education has turned his life around for the better. I find it inspiring to say... There is room in our society for people who aren't perfect, who have history but are prepared to educate and apologise and work hard to be a better person. Declan Gallaghers journey....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57347923
Surely that's a much better message than... You made some mistakes so don't even bother trying to redeem yourself and be better.
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The cricketer you are referring to only thought he needed to apologise for his racist and sexist tweets when a newspaper published. In the years in between, he didn't feel embarrassed by them and feel the need to delete them.
Many people are saying that it happened long ago and shoukdnt have a bearing on his career now as an England cricketer, but let's not forget, that cricket is his job- not his pastime. Lots of employers now check potential employees social media accounts for just this kind of thing, so he can't be expected treated differently. |
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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
"Yeah cancel culture sucks!
Providing that the person in question is truly sorry for what they said, makes reparations for it etc then why should their life be affected?
I turn to ru Paul's drag race down under. One of the contestants admitted to doing shows in their early years wearing blackface. Ru raised it in the show and gave them the opportunity to apologise and make clear that they were sorry for what they did. The end. They weren't kicked off or made an example of.
By cancelling people we are saying that no one can ever change. No one can grow and understand that their actions when they were younger were wrong.
I do think though that the younger generations on social media need to be more aware that what they say online is pretty permanent. Even if they delete it, someone else will have saved it or quoted it etc. "
Exactly this.
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He’s not been banned, just temporarily suspended. If they hadn’t done something then it gives the impression that what he posted on social media (Both Racist and Sexist) was acceptable, suspension is possibly heavy handed.
It’s unfortunate and while I’m sure he doesn’t hold such views anymore, inaction would have legitimised those who do hold such views.
The ECB could have pre-empted all of this by vetting his social media before his selection and getting him to release a statement condemning his previous behaviour BEFORE it became an issue |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Past mistakes are that! If they keep repeating and no change is made then that's on you.
I went to prison as a teen...no arrests since, good professional job...society does like people to pay for mistakes for far too long |
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Obviously we should give people the chance to grow and learn and be sorry for past mistakes, and we should give them the opportunity to be sorry and apologise.
The issue then becomes who decides when “sorry” is sorry enough. How sorry do you need to be? Is crying on national TV enough? What about a heart felt letter? How about offering up a pinky to be severed to show you devote and unwavering sorrow?
The court of public opinion will never be fair |
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It’s weak from the cricket board. Could have turned it into something positive, giving the guy the chance to educate kids not to post crap online, but instead they took the easy option, to protect their own reputation and be seen to have done something.
But kids need to learn that you just can’t not send on any electronic communication that you would not be happy to hear read out on court. Abusing people online, and thinking you have impunity, or that dismissing your own offensive material as “bantah” just isn’t good enough .
Very harsh on this guy, but if it makes a few kids think twice then it might serve some purpose. |
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"He’s not been banned, just temporarily suspended. If they hadn’t done something then it gives the impression that what he posted on social media (Both Racist and Sexist) was acceptable, suspension is possibly heavy handed.
It’s unfortunate and while I’m sure he doesn’t hold such views anymore, inaction would have legitimised those who do hold such views.
The ECB could have pre-empted all of this by vetting his social media before his selection and getting him to release a statement condemning his previous behaviour BEFORE it became an issue"
The irony is not lost... The ecb who regulate a sport... The oldest member of which the mcc only permitted female members in 1998.... |
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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
This is the issue with cancel culture, it expects everyone to appear on SM or into the world fully formed and with ‘correct attitudes’. It removes the ability and allowance for people to get things wrong, to learn and to work through their biases or prejudices.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t be answerable for getting those things wrong but if they’ve learnt, then surely that’s answer in itself?
This type of situation removes a persons ability to grow and judges us all by our worst moments.
Part of being human is the ability to move forwards, to make reparations and to be a better person |
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"It’s weak from the cricket board. Could have turned it into something positive, giving the guy the chance to educate kids not to post crap online, but instead they took the easy option, to protect their own reputation and be seen to have done something.
But kids need to learn that you just can’t not send on any electronic communication that you would not be happy to hear read out on court. Abusing people online, and thinking you have impunity, or that dismissing your own offensive material as “bantah” just isn’t good enough .
Very harsh on this guy, but if it makes a few kids think twice then it might serve some purpose. "
I'm intrigued what they hope to achieve by it though. Surely the time for taking a knee has stopped being about awareness. Surely a better message would be... The ecb have got (have they?) an education program where we target 10000 teens a year and turn peoples lives around by education that racism and sexism is wrong... We are setting the example from the top down.
Our board and coaches are selected on their merit rather than their sex or race and you can see that as men and women are represented equally in all aspects of our management and community games...
But no.. Hanging someone out to dry in the gibbet of social media is a much easier option than the governing body taking some responsibility and making genuine change for its members. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It depends on your worth.
If your let's say Lionel Messi and worth hundreds of millions you are not going to get the sack because another club will pick you up instantly for free.
If your Aldershot town player you are out |
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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
"It’s weak from the cricket board. Could have turned it into something positive, giving the guy the chance to educate kids not to post crap online, but instead they took the easy option, to protect their own reputation and be seen to have done something.
But kids need to learn that you just can’t not send on any electronic communication that you would not be happy to hear read out on court. Abusing people online, and thinking you have impunity, or that dismissing your own offensive material as “bantah” just isn’t good enough .
Very harsh on this guy, but if it makes a few kids think twice then it might serve some purpose.
I'm intrigued what they hope to achieve by it though. Surely the time for taking a knee has stopped being about awareness. Surely a better message would be... The ecb have got (have they?) an education program where we target 10000 teens a year and turn peoples lives around by education that racism and sexism is wrong... We are setting the example from the top down.
Our board and coaches are selected on their merit rather than their sex or race and you can see that as men and women are represented equally in all aspects of our management and community games...
But no.. Hanging someone out to dry in the gibbet of social media is a much easier option than the governing body taking some responsibility and making genuine change for its members. "
I think that you’re being a bit hasty in your damnation. The ECB is yet to rule on what to do and will try to balance a firm stance with giving him the benefit of the doubt.
It’s the media that’s created this furore, not the ECB.
Although I’m not sure if there’s anything more ironic and out of touch than a group of old, privileged, white men, sitting in judgement of a case of sexism/racism |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The world we live in ...
People are always going to try and break people down make them look bad and kick them in the nuts rather than saying what a turn around someone has made
There's a great story here...
About a man who made some mistakes along the way but with prison, hard work, education has turned his life around for the better. I find it inspiring to say... There is room in our society for people who aren't perfect, who have history but are prepared to educate and apologise and work hard to be a better person. Declan Gallaghers journey....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57347923
***Surely that's a much better message than... You made some mistakes so don't even bother trying to redeem yourself and be better.***
"
*** 
If we say people can't change or be better then why bother. Criminals would stay criminal or do even worse things because why bother trying to change. Someone will always bring up the past. |
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Whilst it can seem a bit harsh to come down hard on the guy for stuff from ten years ago (though as others have noted he has not been permanently "cancelled"), do we not want to treat racism with very little tolerance?
There's a lot of talk about how unacceptable racism is, but then when an example emerges of racist behaviour we should just say "well, he was young, let's give him a slap on the wrists and move on"?
Does that send the right message? |
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"Whilst it can seem a bit harsh to come down hard on the guy for stuff from ten years ago (though as others have noted he has not been permanently "cancelled"), do we not want to treat racism with very little tolerance?
There's a lot of talk about how unacceptable racism is, but then when an example emerges of racist behaviour we should just say "well, he was young, let's give him a slap on the wrists and move on"?
Does that send the right message? "
Is that what people have said? |
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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
"Whilst it can seem a bit harsh to come down hard on the guy for stuff from ten years ago (though as others have noted he has not been permanently "cancelled"), do we not want to treat racism with very little tolerance?
There's a lot of talk about how unacceptable racism is, but then when an example emerges of racist behaviour we should just say "well, he was young, let's give him a slap on the wrists and move on"?
Does that send the right message? "
I think that talking in broad strokes is very difficult and there isn’t a unifying answer. The judgement and mercy is in the details; the severity of the actions, whether they’ve learned since then, their age, etc, etc. Nuance and detail are always key.
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"Whilst it can seem a bit harsh to come down hard on the guy for stuff from ten years ago (though as others have noted he has not been permanently "cancelled"), do we not want to treat racism with very little tolerance?
There's a lot of talk about how unacceptable racism is, but then when an example emerges of racist behaviour we should just say "well, he was young, let's give him a slap on the wrists and move on"?
Does that send the right message?
Is that what people have said? "
People are advocating for a lesser punishment than being suspended and investigated. If they have something in mind that's less than that but more than a token slap on the wrists, I'd be happy to hear what it is. |
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By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
"If you are sexist or racist, I don't believe you change. "
That’s very bleak.
The ability to learn and grow is a basic part of being human.
Granted, not everyone does but to deny that anyone can learn and change dooms everyone and I’d question at what age you think it’s set?
Is a racist born? At 12? At 16?
At what age do you think that a person can no longer learn or change? |
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"Whilst it can seem a bit harsh to come down hard on the guy for stuff from ten years ago (though as others have noted he has not been permanently "cancelled"), do we not want to treat racism with very little tolerance?
There's a lot of talk about how unacceptable racism is, but then when an example emerges of racist behaviour we should just say "well, he was young, let's give him a slap on the wrists and move on"?
Does that send the right message? "
That's not what I'm suggesting at all.. What I'm suggesting is rather than take the easy and media friendly route of hanging him out to dry... They use it as an example of change being possible and the game of cricket being instrumental in being part of that change. That once a racist or sexiest does not mean forever a racist or sexist (or criminal). Use it to hashtag the arse off their education program... Oh that's right they don't have one...
Hanging him out to dry achieves nothing. And as for "investigating" what's to investigate... He said some words 10 years ago.. He apologised.... What do they expect is going to come from an "investigation"... As already said... The declan Gallagher story is much more positive... Credit to the sfa for not suspending him.... |
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"Whilst it can seem a bit harsh to come down hard on the guy for stuff from ten years ago (though as others have noted he has not been permanently "cancelled"), do we not want to treat racism with very little tolerance?
There's a lot of talk about how unacceptable racism is, but then when an example emerges of racist behaviour we should just say "well, he was young, let's give him a slap on the wrists and move on"?
Does that send the right message?
That's not what I'm suggesting at all.. What I'm suggesting is rather than take the easy and media friendly route of hanging him out to dry... They use it as an example of change being possible and the game of cricket being instrumental in being part of that change. That once a racist or sexiest does not mean forever a racist or sexist (or criminal). Use it to hashtag the arse off their education program... Oh that's right they don't have one...
Hanging him out to dry achieves nothing. And as for "investigating" what's to investigate... He said some words 10 years ago.. He apologised.... What do they expect is going to come from an "investigation"... As already said... The declan Gallagher story is much more positive... Credit to the sfa for not suspending him...."
Perhaps I'm not understanding your suggestion, but to me "using him as an example of of change being possible" doesn't sound like any kind of punishment. Sounds like a celebration if anything.
I'd suggest maybe some people in here aren't thinking about the impact it has on the victims of racism, the message it sends to them when we put the comfort of perpetrators first and kick against the idea of any serious consequences. |
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"If you are sexist or racist, I don't believe you change. "
I think when people are younger, they sometimes say stuff just to be controversial and get attention, rather than their posts coming from a place of hatred and perceived superiority. Just being stupid kids really, not understand wrong the consequences of their words. Also there is the whole “bantah” banner where people think they can say any old stuff and the dismiss it as only having been “bantah”. I agree with the comments about education, kids need to learn that anything they post is out there for ever. And it’s not like this bloke was in the first wave of online activity, his posts were in the 2010’s, a lot of lessons had already been learned by then ... just not by him, apparently. |
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Why is it that any form of consequence or punishment is now deemed to be “cancelling” and therefore a bad thing?
The other extreme is zero consequences. Is that what the “cancel” people would prefer?
Comments earlier saying that guys has had his career cancelled. No he hasn’t. But he is suffering harsh consequences for some stupid posts |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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We all have a past, i made a choice at 22 that robbed years of my life,and still to this day tortures me single day,
i dont have social media ect so if i did end up in the 'lime light' which i hope never happens how it would come out i dont know, but im sure it would and id be judged on it.  |
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"Why is it that any form of consequence or punishment is now deemed to be “cancelling” and therefore a bad thing?
The other extreme is zero consequences. Is that what the “cancel” people would prefer?
Comments earlier saying that guys has had his career cancelled. No he hasn’t. But he is suffering harsh consequences for some stupid posts "
Yes. I find cancel culture has become a misnomer.
Public shaming in the age of the internet can be brutal, but "cancel culture" as a term encompasses way more than this.
The lack of nuance means we end up getting distracted from the issue at hand - how do we deal with apparent transgressions? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Past mistakes are that! If they keep repeating and no change is made then that's on you.
I went to prison as a teen...no arrests since, good professional job...society does like people to pay for mistakes for far too long"
Good on you mate!
And yes, people seem to want to never forgive and forget. |
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"But they haven't banned him and cancelled his career. He has been suspended pending an investigation .
He will no doubt face some sanction and then be free to play test cricket.
Rightly so in my opinion."
Thankfully someone who read the detail in the story, not just the banner headline!
Ps I also agree with your desired outcome |
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"I started a thread last week ........
You 30 years ago, to see how people thought of precisely these modern day occurences.......
I did think of your thread.
Ah your prophetic soul"
I think it was less prophetic and more inspired by a similar happening. |
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"Past mistakes are that! If they keep repeating and no change is made then that's on you.
I went to prison as a teen...no arrests since, good professional job...society does like people to pay for mistakes for far too long
Good on you mate!
And yes, people seem to want to never forgive and forget. "
But he will be be forgiven, his past misdeeds will be looked at, he may well receive some sanction and then get on with his career.
Incidentally do you think the poster you responded to shouldn't have been punished for the crime he committed if it had been discovered at some time in the future? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Past mistakes are that! If they keep repeating and no change is made then that's on you.
I went to prison as a teen...no arrests since, good professional job...society does like people to pay for mistakes for far too long
Good on you mate!
And yes, people seem to want to never forgive and forget.
But he will be be forgiven, his past misdeeds will be looked at, he may well receive some sanction and then get on with his career.
Incidentally do you think the poster you responded to shouldn't have been punished for the crime he committed if it had been discovered at some time in the future?"
He did something wrong when he was 18. Years ago. He's apologised and he sounded sincere. Maybe give him a couple of games ban but we move on.
I'm sure we've all said or done something in the past that would be frowned upon. Where does it stop?
Do we start digging up everyone's past?  |
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"Past mistakes are that! If they keep repeating and no change is made then that's on you.
I went to prison as a teen...no arrests since, good professional job...society does like people to pay for mistakes for far too long
Good on you mate!
And yes, people seem to want to never forgive and forget.
But he will be be forgiven, his past misdeeds will be looked at, he may well receive some sanction and then get on with his career.
Incidentally do you think the poster you responded to shouldn't have been punished for the crime he committed if it had been discovered at some time in the future?
He did something wrong when he was 18. Years ago. He's apologised and he sounded sincere. Maybe give him a couple of games ban but we move on.
I'm sure we've all said or done something in the past that would be frowned upon. Where does it stop?
Do we start digging up everyone's past? "
So we're not in disagreement, it's being properly investigated, not just swept under the carpet as historically incidents of this nature have been, he'll receive a slap on the wrist and be able to get on with a hopefully illustrious cricketing career. |
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"Past mistakes are that! If they keep repeating and no change is made then that's on you.
I went to prison as a teen...no arrests since, good professional job...society does like people to pay for mistakes for far too long
Good on you mate!
And yes, people seem to want to never forgive and forget.
But he will be be forgiven, his past misdeeds will be looked at, he may well receive some sanction and then get on with his career.
Incidentally do you think the poster you responded to shouldn't have been punished for the crime he committed if it had been discovered at some time in the future?
He did something wrong when he was 18. Years ago. He's apologised and he sounded sincere. Maybe give him a couple of games ban but we move on.
I'm sure we've all said or done something in the past that would be frowned upon. Where does it stop?
Do we start digging up everyone's past? "
So far he's been banned for one test match and a 14k fine. His name and character are forever stained. And endorsements will have been threatened, reduced or removed. Now...this is the crux of the matter. He said something when he was a teenager... That doesn't necessarily mean or imply that the man he has become today is a racist or a sexist...who among us has not forwarded on some of those "funny" clips / Jokes / videos and do none of them make fun of other people?
The notion that he will be forgiven and can move on is naive. I'm not apologising for him but I'm challenging the need to rake over peoples pasts and our unwillingness to forgive people and also our inability to accept that people can and do change. And sometimes making change is bloody hard. And for those that succeed in becoming "better" we should say... Well done surely? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Past mistakes are that! If they keep repeating and no change is made then that's on you.
I went to prison as a teen...no arrests since, good professional job...society does like people to pay for mistakes for far too long
Good on you mate!
And yes, people seem to want to never forgive and forget.
But he will be be forgiven, his past misdeeds will be looked at, he may well receive some sanction and then get on with his career.
Incidentally do you think the poster you responded to shouldn't have been punished for the crime he committed if it had been discovered at some time in the future?
He did something wrong when he was 18. Years ago. He's apologised and he sounded sincere. Maybe give him a couple of games ban but we move on.
I'm sure we've all said or done something in the past that would be frowned upon. Where does it stop?
Do we start digging up everyone's past?
So we're not in disagreement, it's being properly investigated, not just swept under the carpet as historically incidents of this nature have been, he'll receive a slap on the wrist and be able to get on with a hopefully illustrious cricketing career."
I hope so! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Past mistakes are that! If they keep repeating and no change is made then that's on you.
I went to prison as a teen...no arrests since, good professional job...society does like people to pay for mistakes for far too long
Good on you mate!
And yes, people seem to want to never forgive and forget.
But he will be be forgiven, his past misdeeds will be looked at, he may well receive some sanction and then get on with his career.
Incidentally do you think the poster you responded to shouldn't have been punished for the crime he committed if it had been discovered at some time in the future?
He did something wrong when he was 18. Years ago. He's apologised and he sounded sincere. Maybe give him a couple of games ban but we move on.
I'm sure we've all said or done something in the past that would be frowned upon. Where does it stop?
Do we start digging up everyone's past?
So far he's been banned for one test match and a 14k fine. His name and character are forever stained. And endorsements will have been threatened, reduced or removed. Now...this is the crux of the matter. He said something when he was a teenager... That doesn't necessarily mean or imply that the man he has become today is a racist or a sexist...who among us has not forwarded on some of those "funny" clips / Jokes / videos and do none of them make fun of other people?
The notion that he will be forgiven and can move on is naive. I'm not apologising for him but I'm challenging the need to rake over peoples pasts and our unwillingness to forgive people and also our inability to accept that people can and do change. And sometimes making change is bloody hard. And for those that succeed in becoming "better" we should say... Well done surely? "
Well said. |
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By *lex46TV/TS
over a year ago
Near Wells |
I find it really sad. How many people have done and said things in their teenage years which were wrong? Most of us I expect.
It's called growing up, most people realise they might have been idiots at times when they were younger but we learn and move on.
Unfortunately nowadays, tweets and posts are there for all to see forever. Hopefully the ECB will see sense (that's doubtful though) and he will be able to continue his international career.
Him and Rory Burns performance were about the only positive things for England in that test match. |
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"I find it really sad. How many people have done and said things in their teenage years which were wrong? Most of us I expect.
It's called growing up, most people realise they might have been idiots at times when they were younger but we learn and move on.
Unfortunately nowadays, tweets and posts are there for all to see forever. Hopefully the ECB will see sense (that's doubtful though) and he will be able to continue his international career.
Him and Rory Burns performance were about the only positive things for England in that test match."
Of course we've all done daft stuff as teenagers and invariably there were consequences, I can tell you from own personal experience!
What he's done isn't s capital offence (in my opinion), but it's rightly (inevitably) been highlighted due to the position he now holds, it couldn't be ignored.
Hopefully he'll be dealt with sensitively given his age at the time and resume his career as did Botham, Gower et al did following the bollockings they received for their lary behaviour. |
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