FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Gender self identification

Gender self identification

By *ucktop OP Man over a year ago

London/abroad

Do you agree that people should be free to choose their gender irrespective of whether they’ve had surgery?

Curious to hear points of view of people from different parts of the gender scale. Personally I tend to think no, but I can’t say I’ve got a direct understanding of the issue. I have never experienced any gender uncertainty myself despite sexually being attracted to men.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It doesn't matter if people have had the surgery or not, they know who they are inside. Everyone is entitled to be and should be encouraged to be who they want to be. Anyone who takes this step has a lot of courage and I have nothing but respect for them

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

they can identify as whatever they want but should they have full access to closed “safe” spaces set aside for that gender is a bigger harder issue to solve I think?

eg womens refuges sports changing rooms etc,

some will say of course anyone should be allowed based on their self identity but others will say there should be strict criteria before anyone identifying as the opposite sex to their birth sex can be allowed access

I don’t know the answer but do know feelings are strong on both sides

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval.

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By *ucktop OP Man over a year ago

London/abroad

"I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval."

Well it does legally. Of course you can call yourself what you like but it’s of limited value if not recognised by the law.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval.

Well it does legally. Of course you can call yourself what you like but it’s of limited value if not recognised by the law. "

I support trans people and recognise the enormous challenges they face in having their identity recognised, legally or otherwise, and trans women are welcome to pee or change in peace as far as I'm concerned.

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By *ts the taking part thatMan over a year ago

southampton

People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I didn't think anyone's identification required permission or approval."

It really does with a healthcare setting

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By *stellaWoman over a year ago

London

"Do you agree that people should be free to choose their gender irrespective of whether they’ve had surgery?

Yes

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By *irginieWoman over a year ago

Near Marlborough

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

Oh dear

Entirely not fact...... FACT

V x

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I've nicked some of the text of my reply so it's not all my own, but since we've existed there's cultures that have revered more than two genders. Terms such as “transgender” and “gay” are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman).

Many have for third, fourth, fifth, or more genders, we just have no concept of them in our modern society. Genitalia is only part of the equation.

I identify as a straght male. But that my prerogative.

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By *lenderfoxMan over a year ago

Leeds

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

This isn't true, there's plenty of science behind it

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By *acey_RedWoman over a year ago

Liverpool

Absolutely. The same way a woman is under no obligation to have reconstructive surgery after a mastectomy just because she's a woman and it doesn't make her any less a woman.

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS over a year ago

Stockport

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

Boring. Saying fact in capital letters doesn't make it so, just shows that you have no actual argument. Having done this whole discussion many times now, I really couldn't be arsed to go through it again. Go read some proper books about gender, look up some of the ancient threads on fab covering the topic, get to know some actual transpeople. Walk a mile in someone elses shoes before you just blithely insult their existence.

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By *aitonelMan over a year ago

Liverpool

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

Gender is certainly not rigid.

Sex, that's a much more difficult and more complex rabbit hole, that won't ever be concluded within a forum the likes of this.

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By * Sophie xTV/TS over a year ago

Derby

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

And Christians and all other religions says its FACT that "God" exists

It isn't wokery that says otherwise that you aren't the gender your genitals say you are or why would the medical profession approve gender reassignment?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

OP .. I agreed with myself who and what I am and wait for people and society to catch up

You've opened a can of worms with this thread so will watch with interest.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I feel that any adult over the age of 18

Should be free express themselves in any way they feel

Personally I believe in having children and supporting them is the reason we are alive...

So I do not support children being subjected to trans media... yet possibly hypocritical as a 40 year old straight(deviant)

I support sexually affirmative adults who have battled with their own personal confusions and trust they are happy in their decisions

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I’ve said before I don’t care how anyone identifies good for them and I will address them by their pronouns if that’s what they want.

where people never answer tho is should a birth male who recently identifies themselves as female be allowed into the school or swimming pool communal showers naked with everything on show with other users and what about the views of the other users?

It’s a real issue that needs to be answered but everyone always just talks around it I don’t know what the answer is that addresses everyones concerns until everywhere has neutral cubicles but that will take a lot of time

Whatever the answer is one side of the debate will get upset I’m glad it isnt me that has to make the policy

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I’ve said before I don’t care how anyone identifies good for them and I will address them by their pronouns if that’s what they want.

Whatever the answer is one side of the debate will get upset I’m glad it isnt me that has to make the policy "

I welcome them.

Trans women are welcome in the same spaces as I inhabit. Including naked, where appropriate.

Hope that helps.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’ve said before I don’t care how anyone identifies good for them and I will address them by their pronouns if that’s what they want.

Whatever the answer is one side of the debate will get upset I’m glad it isnt me that has to make the policy

I welcome them.

Trans women are welcome in the same spaces as I inhabit. Including naked, where appropriate.

Hope that helps."

Does it help those women that dont welcome it tho thats the issue.

not all women want birth males in their safe spaces however they identify so should their views be ignored like I say I dont know the answer you have one view others will have an opposite view and who decides who is right?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The problem with being happy with your self personification in a world governed by mass media is a constant confusion

Whether your friends accept you is a next stage to whatever identification you propose

Best rule is to fuck off all outside influence and do what you want

Quote frank sinatra ‘I did it my way’

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"I’ve said before I don’t care how anyone identifies good for them and I will address them by their pronouns if that’s what they want.

Whatever the answer is one side of the debate will get upset I’m glad it isnt me that has to make the policy

I welcome them.

Trans women are welcome in the same spaces as I inhabit. Including naked, where appropriate.

Hope that helps.

Does it help those women that dont welcome it tho thats the issue.

I said "I" welcome them. Not that I'm dictating what everyone should do.

Also, any female changing room I've been in (apart from swinging clubs), the nudity is pretty minimal, we do it in cubicles or facing the wall...

I recognise that trans women face more threat needing to pee than I do, generally. And I don't view a public toilet or changing room as a "safe space"...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I look forward to the day when we just view each other as fellow humans without the need for boxes that we feel the need to either put ourselves or other people in.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I look forward to the day when we just view each other as fellow humans without the need for boxes that we feel the need to either put ourselves or other people in.

Wise words

I believe in equality... but this is a huge topic that cannot be explained simply

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By *ucktop OP Man over a year ago

London/abroad

"Terms such as “transgender” and “gay” are strictly new constructs that assume three things: that there are only two sexes (male/female), two sexualities (gay/straight), and only two genders (man/woman).

Many have for third, fourth, fifth, or more genders, we just have no concept of them in our modern society. Genitalia is only part of the equation.

I quite agree with this, but for me, this is an argument against self-identification in one of just two genders. Instead accept there’s a wide spectrum and trans people are somewhere in there like everyone else.

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By *otsossieMan over a year ago

local, but not too local

"Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

————-

This isn't true, there's plenty of science behind it"

I came here to say this. Personal politics aside, biologically there are at least 4 sexes.

Gender is more esoteric and is a social construct.

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By *otsossieMan over a year ago

local, but not too local

"And I don't view a public toilet or changing room as a "safe space"..."

Quite.

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By *ackformore100Man over a year ago

Tin town

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

I want to have babies.

You can't have babies stan, you don't have a womb. Where's the baby going to gestate?

Don't you oppress me,!

...its a very complex issue for some, and perhaps being made more complex by the delusion. sadly a mates daughter took her own life because of her demons and challenges with this...seeing no way out at the age of 14.im not sure any amount of legislation would have helped her.

I tend to think each case is unique and should be helped according to their uniqueness. But also a square is a square and a circle is a circle even if some people want to call it a carrot.

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By *atnip make me purrWoman over a year ago

Reading

I'm another woman who welcomes transwomen into any toilet and changing rooms. I don't feel at all threatened.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

I want to have babies.

You can't have babies stan, you don't have a womb. Where's the baby going to gestate?

Don't you oppress me,!

I tend to think each case is unique and should be helped according to their uniqueness. But also a square is a square and a circle is a circle even if some people want to call it a carrot. "

My aunty K never had children despite an entire "childbearing age" of trying. Is she my uncle?

(I'm so sorry aunty K

)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My belief is if someone believes and feels they identify to a particular gender then I respect that. You go down the rabbit hole of what is really female or male. Someone who has not had surgery but has identifies as female should be. Respected for that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 26/05/21 08:24:12]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT."

Writing ‘FACT’ after a statement just makes people laugh and not take you seriously, thus diminishing what you say, be it a fact or an opinion.

For the record; people don’t change their gender. Nor do they ‘choose’ it, as was suggested by the op.

Your gender comes from within. Your physical sex may not align with it.

Conversion therapy is cruel and does not work. You can’t change your gender.

You can, however, change your body to match it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Before you refer back to high school biology lessons, remember science is always moving forward, learning more and often revising earlier assumptions and conclusions.

Before you get heated and make your flat Earth style arguments bring yourself up to date a bit.

Perhaps watch this;

https://youtu.be/kT0HJkr1jj4

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

In addition to what I just said. Someone who identifies as female but not had surgery will hate the fact they have a penis and would get rid of it if they could. They would want a partner to treat them like a female, not a female with extras. To argue whether someone is not truly female unless they’d have had surgery is like saying someone who is trans after the many difficult changes they have gone through they are not really a woman. The argument is academic.

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By *oubleA123Couple over a year ago

berwick

"People can of course call themselves what ever they want but it is a pretence to say you can change gender.

We all know gender is rigid and any other view is just pandering to people and should stop.

Wokery will say otherwise but you are the gender you were born to. FACT.

Your last sentence says it all! We may not understand but we can accept.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The gender clinic in Exeter admit to a five year waiting list to have a first appointment with them. With covid, that’s probably more like six or seven as they only saw two new people in the last year!

Nhs guidelines are that they should be seeing people within 18 weeks......

Once you have your first appointment it takes a year or two before you can get put forward for surgery and the surgeons have a year or two backlog.

So a trans woman can be facing another ten years with a penis when she desperately wants it gone.

Please don’t judge.

For the record; there is no hospital in the UK able to do downstairs surgery on trans men for the nhs at the moment. Spare a thought for those men who are desperate for help but aware of that fact.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Debating this gives people with very little knowledge the chance to rant about a subject they clearly don’t understand.

They spout their venom and then get on with their day.

Trans people live this every day of our lives.

This isn’t a debate for us. There is nothing to debate. We already know the facts.

While you debate our existence and make us justify ourselves, it has no effect on how you feel apart from enjoying having a rant.

Being trans is not easy. It’s not a choice. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

This is my life though. This is who I am.

I’ve faced the assholes who think they know more about me than I do.

I’ve been physically assaulted just for existing. Had to walk around with a black eye socket containing a bright red eyeball and a fat lip with a split in it.

How about you all debate things that actually affect YOU.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Debating this gives people with very little knowledge the chance to rant about a subject they clearly don’t understand.

They spout their venom and then get on with their day.

Trans people live this every day of our lives.

This isn’t a debate for us. There is nothing to debate. We already know the facts.

While you debate our existence and make us justify ourselves, it has no effect on how you feel apart from enjoying having a rant.

Being trans is not easy. It’s not a choice. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

This is my life though. This is who I am.

I’ve faced the assholes who think they know more about me than I do.

I’ve been physically assaulted just for existing. Had to walk around with a black eye socket containing a bright red eyeball and a fat lip with a split in it.

How about you all debate things that actually affect YOU.

I'm sorry.

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By *ntrepid ExplorersCouple over a year ago

Birmingham

"Debating this gives people with very little knowledge the chance to rant about a subject they clearly don’t understand.

They spout their venom and then get on with their day.

Trans people live this every day of our lives.

This isn’t a debate for us. There is nothing to debate. We already know the facts.

While you debate our existence and make us justify ourselves, it has no effect on how you feel apart from enjoying having a rant.

Being trans is not easy. It’s not a choice. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

This is my life though. This is who I am.

I’ve faced the assholes who think they know more about me than I do.

I’ve been physically assaulted just for existing. Had to walk around with a black eye socket containing a bright red eyeball and a fat lip with a split in it.

How about you all debate things that actually affect YOU.

This is certainly where I see things. I have my views and feelings, but know that they come from zero lived experience, and TBH, precious little else concrete knowledge. There are logical conundrums I can't necessarily square away totally, but whilst I have questions, I feel I could find my own answers to a better extent, rather than fudging them into opinions.

I have no horse in this race, outside of a general desire for human decency and valid social progress, so I try to watch and learn from a distance.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

Fuck, I'm sure even the most self assured trans woman will have some serious apprehension before getting their dick removed! It's not something that should be expected of someone as a price they have to pay to live their life as they see fit. Although I understand that many may want to go through this eventually.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

BUT - just 'cos they need a bit more consideration, doesn't mean you have to infringe on the rights of trans women to do so. They just need to be dealt with sensitively and with care. These issues are pretty new and society in general hasn't sorted them out yet. We'll get there.

I don't actually know any trans women well enough to call them up and ask them how they feel about this, but I'm pretty sure most of them also don't want to make cis-gendered women uncomfortable in any of those settings mentioned above.

There's always the issue that Dave the local builder could suddenly say that he's self identifying as a women just to go and have a perv. But the evidence suggests that basically doesn't happen. I suppose it theoretically could happen and if it really is an issue there needs to be some sort of safe-guard against that.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of trans people being made to undergo any sort of tests to "prove" they are really trans, 'cos you shouldn't have to prove who you are... but some level of bureaucracy here could allay a lot of peoples unfounded "fears" about trans people while also making it easier for trans people to be accepted as who they are.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Debating this gives people with very little knowledge the chance to rant about a subject they clearly don’t understand.

They spout their venom and then get on with their day.

Trans people live this every day of our lives.

This isn’t a debate for us. There is nothing to debate. We already know the facts.

While you debate our existence and make us justify ourselves, it has no effect on how you feel apart from enjoying having a rant.

Being trans is not easy. It’s not a choice. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

This is my life though. This is who I am.

I’ve faced the assholes who think they know more about me than I do.

I’ve been physically assaulted just for existing. Had to walk around with a black eye socket containing a bright red eyeball and a fat lip with a split in it.

How about you all debate things that actually affect YOU.

I have no horse in this race, outside of a general desire for human decency and valid social progress, so I try to watch and learn from a distance."

Thank you.

The link I shared earlier is quite enlightening. As is this one; a talk by someone who is intersex.

https://youtu.be/kT0HJkr1jj4

I wish people who aren’t trans but feel they want to get involved would do a tiny bit of research before trampling all over other people’s lives.

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By *asmeenTV/TS over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT

Walk a mile in my heels

You couldn't

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Generally yes - people should be able to gender self identify.

People shouldn't be expected to have surgery to be recognised as the gender that they feel is right for them.

That being said, there are issues to do with women's refuges, prisons, changing rooms etc (women's safe spaces). that need consideration.

I'd be really curious to hear the opinions of any trans people on the thread.

I've mainly referred to trans women in this thread 'cos the consent issue with regard to women's safe spaces normally runs that way."

I’m putting a few opinions in to this, so I hope that helps.

For the record, we don’t have our ‘Dick removed’. We have our testicles removed and our ‘dick’ cut up and rearranged back to the way it was when we first started to develop in the womb.

We all have the same bodies in the early weeks of development but some of us have a Y chromosome that triggers our ovaries to descend and develop into testes. Out vulva to fuse into a scrotum (hence the seam under it) and our clitoris to grow longer.

Having had my genital cut up and rearranged I can confirm it isn’t something to be done lightly!

It is a mahoosive operation and there’s no way fab would let me post a pic of the swollen black mass I was left with afterwards. Pushing a dilator into that three times a day was an experience too!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Walk a mile in my heels

You couldn't

I totally agree.

I'm a cis-gendered straight white bloke. The issues that gay people have to go through for acceptance would crush me, let alone the struggle for acceptance that trans people have to deal with.

The level of depression and teen suicide in the trans community should be all the evidence you need to stop fucking discriminating against people.

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By *asmeenTV/TS over a year ago

STOKE ON TRENT

"Walk a mile in my heels

You couldn't

I totally agree.

I'm a cis-gendered straight white bloke. The issues that gay people have to go through for acceptance would crush me, let alone the struggle for acceptance that trans people have to deal with.

The level of depression and teen suicide in the trans community should be all the evidence you need to stop fucking discriminating against people."

You make best with what you have xx