FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Who should access gendered facilities eg restrooms / changing rooms etc
Who should access gendered facilities eg restrooms / changing rooms etc
Jump to: Newest in thread
 |
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
Following on from the great debate about “Identifying as non-binary” I have a slightly different question on a similar theme.
I’m not trying to be divisive it’s a genuine question which might spark debate or might not but one which I’m (personally) struggling with to know the right answer and so might warrant a debate but please be respectful of others and their views, even if they are different to yours.
Is there or should there be a qualifying period or criteria before someone identifying as a different sex to the one assigned at birth can access communal but segregated facilities, eg swimming pool changing rooms for example.
If someone is going through gender reassignment therapy or surgery is that different to someone who isn’t, yet identifies as the opposite sex?
If I, as a cis-male, decide tomorrow that I wish to identify as a female can or should I be allowed into the female changing rooms at the pool the same day?
There’s a lot of debate at the moment about trans and non-binary rights but does that sit comfortably with the rights of those who would prefer (for whatever reason) to have separate facilities from those with different genitals?
It’s a real minefield I think and I don’t know how everyone’s preferences can be accommodated satisfactorily.
Over to you... |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Life would be so much easier if we had more unisex / mixed gender changing rooms!"
It would, but we don’t and even if we move to them it will take time and money to do so (and install all the cubicles etc needed for privacy) So what about the meantime? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Most places have an accessible rest room, not ideal perhaps but if you feel like you may cause concern or be concerned yourself by entering either of the gendered facilities can this not be an option?
Personally I could give a monkeys if someone of any gender entered the facilities while I was relieving myself. You’ve made your choice, I’m sure you’re aware of what might be happening.
The issue I see is abuse by a minority, so, see point A |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
This is one of those situations where it is okay to have conflicting views. You can totally support people who identify as a gender that does not match their sex but also say no to the changing room straw man you propose. Who do you assign to check? Do you check everyone?
As a society we are in transition to something new when it comes to all this and we don't yet have the answers or infrastructure. It might take the passing of several generations for it all to work out and in the meantime if you can choose to be anything... Choose to be kind.
Tldr... Don't be a dick |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
If I decided tomorrow that I identify as a Male. I wouldn't just start using male toilets. I would take the comfort of others into consideration. I know my dad wouldn't feel comfortable using a urinal with a female in there. Think people need to start using common sense
R |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If I decided tomorrow that I identify as a Male. I wouldn't just start using male toilets. I would take the comfort of others into consideration. I know my dad wouldn't feel comfortable using a urinal with a female in there. Think people need to start using common sense
R"
Use a stall? cant see, can’t be seen?
(Playing devils advocate) |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"If I decided tomorrow that I identify as a Male. I wouldn't just start using male toilets. I would take the comfort of others into consideration. I know my dad wouldn't feel comfortable using a urinal with a female in there. Think people need to start using common sense
R
Use a stall? cant see, can’t be seen?
(Playing devils advocate) "
Who. Me or my dad?
R
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *uzie69xTV/TS
over a year ago
Maidstone |
There are massive social changes and greater awareness of diversity and the conversation always ends up with toilets...
The disability movement is the same... All these disabled loos and ramps for minorities... What a waste of money, you say?
Now disabled loos are everywhere we have to find another minority group to have a pop at? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If I decided tomorrow that I identify as a Male. I wouldn't just start using male toilets. I would take the comfort of others into consideration. I know my dad wouldn't feel comfortable using a urinal with a female in there. Think people need to start using common sense
R
Use a stall? cant see, can’t be seen?
(Playing devils advocate)
Who. Me or my dad?
R
"
I’m just suggesting that if you (or anyone else that decided to identify as a particular gender) could walk into a stall and realistically not see or be seen.
I’d have no issue with it, I know some might, but is there a difference between peeing in a room full of “men” and peeing in a room full of people who identify as men? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"If I decided tomorrow that I identify as a Male. I wouldn't just start using male toilets. I would take the comfort of others into consideration. I know my dad wouldn't feel comfortable using a urinal with a female in there. Think people need to start using common sense
R
Use a stall? cant see, can’t be seen?
(Playing devils advocate)
Who. Me or my dad?
R
I’m just suggesting that if you (or anyone else that decided to identify as a particular gender) could walk into a stall and realistically not see or be seen.
I’d have no issue with it, I know some might, but is there a difference between peeing in a room full of “men” and peeing in a room full of people who identify as men? "
The noticeable bit is walking into the toilet. Not the stall
R |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If I decided tomorrow that I identify as a Male. I wouldn't just start using male toilets. I would take the comfort of others into consideration. I know my dad wouldn't feel comfortable using a urinal with a female in there. Think people need to start using common sense
R
Use a stall? cant see, can’t be seen?
(Playing devils advocate)
Who. Me or my dad?
R
I’m just suggesting that if you (or anyone else that decided to identify as a particular gender) could walk into a stall and realistically not see or be seen.
I’d have no issue with it, I know some might, but is there a difference between peeing in a room full of “men” and peeing in a room full of people who identify as men?
The noticeable bit is walking into the toilet. Not the stall
R"
To be fair most men are yes down as soon as they pass the threshold lol |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Most places have an accessible rest room, not ideal perhaps but if you feel like you may cause concern or be concerned yourself by entering either of the gendered facilities can this not be an option?
Personally I could give a monkeys if someone of any gender entered the facilities while I was relieving myself. You’ve made your choice, I’m sure you’re aware of what might be happening.
The issue I see is abuse by a minority, so, see point A"
The accessible changing/toilet is there for people who need the extra rails, changing beds, hoists etc. Please do not use them unless you actually need to. Many disabled people also have toileting problems so cannot wait a long time/hold their need to pee or poo. Please leave the accessible facilities for those it was specifically designed for. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"There are massive social changes and greater awareness of diversity and the conversation always ends up with toilets...
The disability movement is the same... All these disabled loos and ramps for minorities... What a waste of money, you say?
Now disabled loos are everywhere we have to find another minority group to have a pop at?"
Trust me, disabled people are still fair game and excluded from a lot of things. But it's not a competition for which minority has the shittiest end of the stick, eh? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Most places have an accessible rest room, not ideal perhaps but if you feel like you may cause concern or be concerned yourself by entering either of the gendered facilities can this not be an option?
Personally I could give a monkeys if someone of any gender entered the facilities while I was relieving myself. You’ve made your choice, I’m sure you’re aware of what might be happening.
The issue I see is abuse by a minority, so, see point A
The accessible changing/toilet is there for people who need the extra rails, changing beds, hoists etc. Please do not use them unless you actually need to. Many disabled people also have toileting problems so cannot wait a long time/hold their need to pee or poo. Please leave the accessible facilities for those it was specifically designed for. "
I can’t argue with that, it’s not something I considered at the time but I agree. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *uzie69xTV/TS
over a year ago
Maidstone |
"Trust me, disabled people are still fair game and excluded from a lot of things. But it's not a competition for which minority has the shittiest end of the stick, eh?"
I am as much a Disability campaigner as I am LGBT.
I think I reflect your point. Society is so slow in coming to terms with Disability and Gender Identity issues... and all people can talk about is toilets.
We are more than just toilets! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *uzie69xTV/TS
over a year ago
Maidstone |
"I'd have no issue with it, I know some might, but is there a difference between peeing in a room full of “men” and peeing in a room full of people who identify as men? "
I think you're a tad confused about what Gender Neutral toilets are...
Think if it this way...
Toilets on trains are gender neutral. Toilets in stations are not. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
When my daughter cam out as transgender she worked at tesco they said from day one she could use the ladies facilities got her ladies uniform etc infact on the whole they were very accepting and helpful! Obviously there was the odd bigot or 2 but that's life I spose x |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"When my daughter cam out as transgender she worked at tesco they said from day one she could use the ladies facilities got her ladies uniform etc infact on the whole they were very accepting and helpful! Obviously there was the odd bigot or 2 but that's life I spose x"
Unfortunately we live in a world where they are always going to be bigots x |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
People should use the toilets they’re most comfortable with.
The argument “I could wake up tomorrow and decide to identify as a woman” is misleading - this isn’t how it happens.
A guy who says he’s a woman only so he can access women’s toilets is still a guy. When we say “a guy could just say he’s a women to get into women’s changing rooms” we’re not talking about a trans woman, we’re talking about a sexually predatory cis man.
In reality, trans people can be at risk of violence and abuse whichever toilet they use, as can anyone else who doesn’t “look like a woman” or “look like a man”. I know cis women who are questioned about the loo they’re using because they have short hair, no make up and “masculine” clothes.
Demonising trans women as sexual predators, and making the laughable argument that they might have transitioned just to get access to women’s loos, is nonsensical.
Use the loos you’re comfortable with and let others do the same. If you’re sitting on the loos thinking “that person a few cubicles along doesn’t fit my narrow view of what someone identifying as my gender should look like” you probably need to get out more.
Lots of love to the trans people here. X |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If I, as a cis-male, decide tomorrow that I wish to identify as a female can or should I be allowed into the female changing rooms at the pool the same day?
"
No, you are male so go and use the male toilets/changing rooms.
Just deciding you don’t want to be male anymore doesn’t anyone less of a man. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"People should use the toilets they’re most comfortable with.
The argument “I could wake up tomorrow and decide to identify as a woman” is misleading - this isn’t how it happens.
A guy who says he’s a woman only so he can access women’s toilets is still a guy. When we say “a guy could just say he’s a women to get into women’s changing rooms” we’re not talking about a trans woman, we’re talking about a sexually predatory cis man.
In reality, trans people can be at risk of violence and abuse whichever toilet they use, as can anyone else who doesn’t “look like a woman” or “look like a man”. I know cis women who are questioned about the loo they’re using because they have short hair, no make up and “masculine” clothes.
Demonising trans women as sexual predators, and making the laughable argument that they might have transitioned just to get access to women’s loos, is nonsensical.
Use the loos you’re comfortable with and let others do the same. If you’re sitting on the loos thinking “that person a few cubicles along doesn’t fit my narrow view of what someone identifying as my gender should look like” you probably need to get out more.
Lots of love to the trans people here. X"
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
Thanks everyone for your points so far, I was going to reply to them all but there’s too many.
It’s a very current topic and I think society is still coming to terms with it, I think more and more people are thankfully now accepting of trans and non binary people and it would seem as though people are more comfortable now than at any other time in my lifetime to come out as trans or non-binary which is a good thing.
My post wasn’t intended to be bigoted it was intended to debate the society issues that need to be overcome and understood by everyone.
One interesting point is that you don’t just wake up and want to identify as a different sex, that’s not how it happens. Which brings me back to the question at what point how can society be sure then that the person in the communual changing room is indeed non binary / trans or actually that chancer cis male sexual predator abusing the situation as mentioned by Mrs Trellis. To me absolutely clear I’m NOT suggesting the trans / non binary community are predators at all by the way before I’m jumped on, it’s a question of how do we square the circle of ensuring trans rights against the rights of those who would prefer not to share facilities with people with different genitals for whatever reason.
I don’t know what the answer is as I can see both sides of the argument and don’t know how everyone’s views can be met until there’s been massive infrastructure in developing neutral facilities everywhere which is why I opened the debate to get views! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I think the more unisex (such a 90s terms) facilities the better, maybe have 3 instead for those who wish to keep it gender less.
Personally, before transitioning, I always pushed myself to go and change in the male changing rooms but literally found it the most awkward thing. During school, I was always trying to hide myself in the corner and not to look around as I felt like I was breaching the privacy of the boys and being breached at the same time ... it was an awful time. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Thanks everyone for your points so far, I was going to reply to them all but there’s too many.
It’s a very current topic and I think society is still coming to terms with it, I think more and more people are thankfully now accepting of trans and non binary people and it would seem as though people are more comfortable now than at any other time in my lifetime to come out as trans or non-binary which is a good thing.
My post wasn’t intended to be bigoted it was intended to debate the society issues that need to be overcome and understood by everyone.
One interesting point is that you don’t just wake up and want to identify as a different sex, that’s not how it happens. Which brings me back to the question at what point how can society be sure then that the person in the communual changing room is indeed non binary / trans or actually that chancer cis male sexual predator abusing the situation as mentioned by Mrs Trellis. To me absolutely clear I’m NOT suggesting the trans / non binary community are predators at all by the way before I’m jumped on, it’s a question of how do we square the circle of ensuring trans rights against the rights of those who would prefer not to share facilities with people with different genitals for whatever reason.
I don’t know what the answer is as I can see both sides of the argument and don’t know how everyone’s views can be met until there’s been massive infrastructure in developing neutral facilities everywhere which is why I opened the debate to get views!"
Also, sorry to say ... but you just don’t wake up one morning thinking “Oh I want to be a woman from now on” it isn’t a joke and it isn’t how it works.
Its years of conflicting thoughts and battles and not being able to accept what goes on inside.
Personally I knew from when I can remember, I couldn’t pin point why, but I wanted to be like the baby girls. I must have been 5 when I had a concept. I buried a lot, until I realised. I didn’t have a good grasp of what trans girls were or fit in society, as there weren’t as many role models back in 2000s. And somehow I was always made to feel for ages to think “you will never be a woman anyway”
Fast forward and here we are, I am medically transitioning and all, waiting for some ops. This journey has taken ages mentally to even just accept fully. And will take more to go through with OPs. Some other girls will confirm this. But mentally I need to match what I always felt and saw myself.
So to conclude, nobody ever just wakes up one day thinking they want to change their gender... this isn’t a “should I get a haircut” kinda moment u know  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Folk needing a pee or shit. I'd use the ladies if there was a queue for the mens  "
I do this at concerts and airports. I don’t see the big problem really. There’s cubicles. Never bothered me.
As for ignorance. That is unfortunately always going to be around. Towards any minority. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Places should be just unisex in general with cubicles etc. I have always hated urinals anyway, some are terribly designed and instantly cause splashback no matter how you angle yourself. 
The only issue I see is the weirdos who may try it on etc. But this can be sorted by a toilet attendant. No spray no lay, no splash no gash lol. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ea monkeyMan
over a year ago
Manchester (he/him) |
To my mind, it’s fairly simple; use the toilet with which you identify.
There are some that shout about ‘predatory men’ using that as a loop hole, firstly, if a predator is willing to dress as a woman on the off chance that they’ll have the opportunity, then that makes no sense. Secondly, predators have pretended to be service engineers, we don’t ban or shout at service engineers!
There are some that shout about the sexuality of those transitioning and using bathrooms, yet no one is concerned about a lesbian woman using the bathroom.
It’s a small concession that can be made to help a person that’s transitioning or non binary to feel more like themselves. Just like using the pronouns that they prefer or not ‘dead naming’ them, it takes little effort and just a touch of empathy that can have a huge impact on their quality of life |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"To my mind, it’s fairly simple; use the toilet with which you identify.
There are some that shout about ‘predatory men’ using that as a loop hole, firstly, if a predator is willing to dress as a woman on the off chance that they’ll have the opportunity, then that makes no sense. Secondly, predators have pretended to be service engineers, we don’t ban or shout at service engineers!
There are some that shout about the sexuality of those transitioning and using bathrooms, yet no one is concerned about a lesbian woman using the bathroom.
It’s a small concession that can be made to help a person that’s transitioning or non binary to feel more like themselves. Just like using the pronouns that they prefer or not ‘dead naming’ them, it takes little effort and just a touch of empathy that can have a huge impact on their quality of life"
Exactly, sexual predators will find ways to always be predators and do what they gotta do. Just gotta call them out and make sure they get the punishment they deserve |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
If I walked into to toilets and there were a group of males in there. I wouldn't feel safe. Sadly, some cis men are a risk to women.
When I have visited gay clubs and entered toilets with people in them dressed in what would be seen as womens clothes. I have never felt at risk.
Sharing toilets with trans people does not concern me. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *uzie69xTV/TS
over a year ago
Maidstone |
I had a terrifying six months or so during my RLE (Real Life Experience) as part of my managed transition. Dressed, using women's loo, I lived in fear of being labelled as predatory male... Which can't be further from the truth because I fancy men!
Until I got my Driver's Licence name and photo change, I avoided drinking any fluids and avoided women's loo in fear.
"Places should be just unisex in general with cubicles etc. I have always hated urinals anyway, some are terribly designed and instantly cause splashback no matter how you angle yourself. "
Women's loo are much nicer than Gents. Places like Bluewater (upmarket shopping mall in Kent) really do pamper us girls to make us feel special and spend, spend, spend!
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"If I walked into to toilets and there were a group of males in there. I wouldn't feel safe. Sadly, some cis men are a risk to women.
When I have visited gay clubs and entered toilets with people in them dressed in what would be seen as womens clothes. I have never felt at risk.
Sharing toilets with trans people does not concern me. "
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
» Add a new message to this topic
