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Order or freedom
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"Order." Would you rather have order without freedom, or freedom without order? | |||
"Whats most important for human people?" There needs to be order and rules without laws etc there would be no freedom for anyone. Freedom depends upon there being an established order. | |||
"Freedom" I would like the freedom to look at casual's profile though.  | |||
"Order. Would you rather have order without freedom, or freedom without order?" You can’t have freedom without order. We’re there no rules and laws then you wouldn’t be able to have holidays/ cars/ etc etc as they would be taken from you by others. | |||
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"The key to a successful society is to convince people they have freedom whilst they are under order "Very true. | |||
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"Order. Would you rather have order without freedom, or freedom without order? You can’t have freedom without order. We’re there no rules and laws then you wouldn’t be able to have holidays/ cars/ etc etc as they would be taken from you by others. " This. Order means safe food supply, reduction in threat from violence. Without order freedom is meaningless. Freedom is important but order is a more important requirement. | |||
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"The key to a successful society is to convince people they have freedom whilst they are under order " | |||
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"Freedom brings responsibility with it though. I don't think being free means you get to do what you want." God, so much. I have rights, but my rights are meaningless without responsibilities of others. I have responsibilities which bolster other people's rights. | |||
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"Whats most important for human people?" However, further to my previous answer, the OP asked what is most important to people and it's very interesting that the thread devolved in to a discussion about order & freedom. The OP didn't lead or pre-load the conversation in any way, and yet most folk's instinctive choices are about the dichotomy of order versus freedom. Not one single person said "The most important thing to me is Hotel Chocolat, and the enrichment it brings to my life." Or do I take that is a given ? | |||
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"Also, the phrase "human people" is superfluous. All people are human. Granted, some barely so. But even still... " I think there might be a distinction between people, humanity, and society. | |||
" I think there might be a distinction between people, humanity, and society." Most assuredly. I can only make the assumption that the OP was talking about the individual, and not humanity or society writ large. Sunday morning deep discussions. Excellent brain food | |||
" I think there might be a distinction between people, humanity, and society. Most assuredly. I can only make the assumption that the OP was talking about the individual, and not humanity or society writ large. Sunday morning deep discussions. Excellent brain food "Definitely. I see it as symbiotic. I can be entirely self actualised, but if everyone around me is starving, desperate, and have no way out, I'm up shit creek. | |||
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"Definitely. I see it as symbiotic. I can be entirely self actualised, but if everyone around me is starving, desperate, and have no way out, I'm up shit creek." Agreed. I feel many aspects of a capitalistic-driven society promote the achievement of individual success and economic "freedom" as the pinnacle of attainment. To the detriment of everything and everyone else. Sometimes it feels just like one giant Ponzi scheme, and the bottom tier is just getting wider and wider, with all the societal problems that entails being drawn in to sharper focus. | |||
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"Wow people do overthink things here "We live in a complex world. We are complex beings. "Life is pain, Highness! Anyone who says otherwise is selling something." - Westley, Princess Bride | |||
"Definitely. I see it as symbiotic. I can be entirely self actualised, but if everyone around me is starving, desperate, and have no way out, I'm up shit creek. Agreed. I feel many aspects of a capitalistic-driven society promote the achievement of individual success and economic "freedom" as the pinnacle of attainment. To the detriment of everything and everyone else. Sometimes it feels just like one giant Ponzi scheme, and the bottom tier is just getting wider and wider, with all the societal problems that entails being drawn in to sharper focus." Absolutely | |||
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"Without order there's chaos Where there's chaos, freedom is impossible " I don’t agree. Freedom is possible, even in chaos. If someone wants absolute freedom (I’m thinking the hardcore, extreme ancap libertarian types) then they best be prepared to level up their lives and be prepared to shed blood to maintain that freedom. Absolute freedom will inevitably devolve into animal barbarity where only the strongest survive, by taking what they want when they want, by force. The question was never can one exist without the other, it was which is most important. | |||
someone should write a song about it | |||
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"It's a balance, not an either/or. You can have plenty of order by being wrongfully imprisoned, or plenty of freedom for people to do you harm. Neither is good. " Oh, absolutely. But if I had to choose either/or, I think freedom is subordinate to order. | |||
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"its very easy to police good people" Even better when they comply. | |||
"You cannot have freedom without order "Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look | |||
"Whats most important for human people? There needs to be order and rules without laws etc there would be no freedom for anyone. Freedom depends upon there being an established order. " This | |||
"its very easy to police good people Even better when they comply." Universal credit ensures compliance , give them just enough to buy what you decide they need and they will love you forever | |||
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"its very easy to police good people Even better when they comply. Universal credit ensures compliance , give them just enough to buy what you decide they need and they will love you forever " Them  you do know the majority of working single parents claim some element of universal credit don’t you? Working families on low wages etc etc. Who exactly is ‘them’ | |||
"You cannot have freedom without order
Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look"Business isn’t life ...... can you imagine shops if there is no method of payment? Self organising teams sounds like a buzz words senior managers use when trying to get more out of more junior staff. Nothing to do with real life | |||
"You cannot have freedom without order
Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look
Business isn’t life ...... can you imagine shops if there is no method of payment? Self organising teams sounds like a buzz words senior managers use when trying to get more out of more junior staff. Nothing to do with real life "This sounds like "you can have freedom without order, because look at this order which I'm defining as not-order" | |||
"You cannot have freedom without order
Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look
Business isn’t life ...... can you imagine shops if there is no method of payment? Self organising teams sounds like a buzz words senior managers use when trying to get more out of more junior staff. Nothing to do with real life
This sounds like "you can have freedom without order, because look at this order which I'm defining as not-order""Hah exactly!!! | |||
"You cannot have freedom without order
Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look
Business isn’t life ...... can you imagine shops if there is no method of payment? Self organising teams sounds like a buzz words senior managers use when trying to get more out of more junior staff. Nothing to do with real life
This sounds like "you can have freedom without order, because look at this order which I'm defining as not-order"
Hah exactly!!! "You cannot have freedom without order, if you give everyone the freedom to do as they please, people will use that freedom to harm others, if you are too scared to go outside you do not have freedom | |||
"You cannot have freedom without order
Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look
Business isn’t life ...... can you imagine shops if there is no method of payment? Self organising teams sounds like a buzz words senior managers use when trying to get more out of more junior staff. Nothing to do with real life
This sounds like "you can have freedom without order, because look at this order which I'm defining as not-order"
Hah exactly!!!
You cannot have freedom without order, if you give everyone the freedom to do as they please, people will use that freedom to harm others, if you are too scared to go outside you do not have freedom "Agreed, see my comments above | |||
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"You cannot have freedom without order
Self organising teams, organic business models , plenty of examples of order from chaos if you look
Business isn’t life ...... can you imagine shops if there is no method of payment? Self organising teams sounds like a buzz words senior managers use when trying to get more out of more junior staff. Nothing to do with real life "There are plenty of examples of self organisation, we will see within our lifetime the way we trade energy with each other change as the current capitalism system collapses. We are already doing it. New forms of organising and types of community are springing up all the time. We are already seeing the transformations happening. | |||
"It’s a false dichotomy. Order provides a platform for freedom. Individual rights need to be balanced with responsibilities to the community, world, planet. We are all holons, whole/parts and as the depth of awareness of each individual holiness increases their sense of responsibilities as a part of something bigger than them expands. When we are born we are undifferentiated from the environment so we don’t have any responsibilities, then we develop to the egocentric stage, where are sole focus is on our own needs and we take little responsibility for our actions, between the age of 4-7 we start to see the world from other perspectives, so we feel responsibilities to our parents, families, ethnic communities, religious community, local community, friendship groups, work groups, chosen professional groups etc. Basically different tribes.. As we evolve we take on broader responsibilities, managerial and leadership of our teams, organisations, clubs etc., and that continues onto responsibilities for issues that affect the world, the planet and the cosmos. Freedom and order are relative to each level of awareness, and as the depth of consciousness increases, each freedom and its associated duties from the previous level are transcended and included. As we evolve to cosmic consciousness we realise that we are already free, and that freedom comes from within. Earlier senses of freedom, rights and responsibilities get put into the context of the relative altitudes, and the associated concerns increasingly dissolve at new levels of integration. Each altitude brings a new sense of order, as the order within the relative chaos is apprehended." Haha holiness, I meant to write holon. Auto-carrot strikes again... | |||
