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Masculinity

By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

It realise that this is a remarkably vague concept but what does masculinity mean to you? How do you describe it and how would you know ‘it’ when you see it?

Is it possible to be masculine without the toxic associated traits?

Is masculinity changing now against how people viewed it decades ago?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Masculinity - is it subscribing to more traditional view of gender divide?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

These days, I believe it is your musk.

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By *oeBeansMan over a year ago

Derby

It's a label and like all labels, it will be what you make it. Masculinity to you will be different to thousands of others guys so I don't think there's any point of looking too deeply into what it is

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By *ad NannaWoman over a year ago

East London

I have never looked at a man and though "toxic".

My optometrist has pretty eyes, is of slight build and just my height, but he's very masculine.

It's the way he moves, how he talks, his clothing etc.

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By *ad NannaWoman over a year ago

East London

"These days, I believe it is your musk. "

I love the smell of a man, without the overtones of aftershave or deodorant.

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By *elle xWoman over a year ago

Doire Theas

It’s how they smell and I ain’t talking about aftershave

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

There's the traditional view - all muscles and hunter/gathering - then there's the 'new man' (nuturing and caring) - and then there's metrosexual (harking back to the fops/dandies of yore).

To me it's being comfortable with being male (and whatever that means to you) and not trying to conform to a particular view of masculinity.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think a lot of it boils down to confidence. It's got nothing to do with build or looks. Hubby is five nine on a good day and bisexual.. But certainly very masculine.

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By *rder66Man over a year ago

Tatooine

Masculine and feminine are twe sepertae halves of the same mind and in it noth weather you have a masculine mind or a feminine mind but and aggressive mind or a non aggressive mind.

Even if you are from a society which teaches male and female steriotyped roles, it is down to the mind itself.

People are not stuck with this mindset and can connect to their inner-self which can open both famale and masculine energies and people can use both aspects.

The first energy of the cosmos was actualy feminine, this is the creative energy and the masculine came from that (the ego).

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By *adame BWoman over a year ago

C'est moi Boudoir

"These days, I believe it is your musk.

I love the smell of a man, without the overtones of aftershave or deodorant.

It's all in the pheromones

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By *partharmonyCouple over a year ago

Ruislip

Masculinity means nothing to me (Luke). I don't aspire to it in any way. I want to be a decent person. That's my goal. Identifying some traits as masculine or feminine does nothing to help me achieve that.

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Masculinity - is it subscribing to more traditional view of gender divide? "

I’m not sure that I agree. Lots of Enbee’s use the term masculine energy

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"It's a label and like all labels, it will be what you make it. Masculinity to you will be different to thousands of others guys so I don't think there's any point of looking too deeply into what it is

You don’t think that something which is the definition of around half of the world’s population and frames the attraction for a large portion more is worth discussing?

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By *emorefridaCouple over a year ago

La la land

Someone who identifies as male? I really don't know what masculinity is, as much as I don't know what feminity really is. Think a lot of it's a society construct. Like pink used to be a boy colour now it's a girl. I was brought up on a farm and I was a pair of hands and was expected to work like a boy. But I also did ballet typically a girls hobby but we had a boy in our class who was amazing. Brain is fried now as I don't have a clue.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Masculinity - is it subscribing to more traditional view of gender divide?

I’m not sure that I agree. Lots of Enbee’s use the term masculine energy "

I'm not stating! Just throwing additional question to yours.

Very interesting one to ask for sure.

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By *ocothumpaMan over a year ago

quite close to you

When Masculinity (like femininity) enters a space it moves the air around it; it doesn’t demand or expect attention, awe and respect - those thing gravitate toward it.

Masculinity is surprisingly quiet

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I can think of a bunch of stereotypes, but I reject them. I own some of them and I'm absolutely cis female. Ultimately I think masculinity and femininity are culturally contingent, but I get caught up in it as much as anyone.

I think toxic masculinity is the flip side of the shadows of femininity that we fight against - but women have a framework to discuss and negotiate it. Men less so. I wish you better, but it's not my battle.

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By *arker secrets 321Man over a year ago

West Bromwich

As a man I like 2 think women would say I'm masculine. In looks. .body. smell. aperance .my personality...but I like 2 look after my skin nivea and botox so does that give me a feminine side x

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"As a man I like 2 think women would say I'm masculine. In looks. .body. smell. aperance .my personality...but I like 2 look after my skin nivea and botox so does that give me a feminine side x "

That's bollox.

Looking after your skin makes sense. You are being your best self

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By *oeBeansMan over a year ago

Derby

You don’t think that something which is the definition of around half of the world’s population and frames the attraction for a large portion more is worth discussing? "

I don't think it's worth discussing because masculine and feminine traits are a social construct which can shift at any moment. Working a job which was once considered masculine has now been redefined. Whether or not other people want to discuss it is up to them.

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By *arker secrets 321Man over a year ago

West Bromwich

"As a man I like 2 think women would say I'm masculine. In looks. .body. smell. aperance .my personality...but I like 2 look after my skin nivea and botox so does that give me a feminine side x

That's bollox.

Looking after your skin makes sense. You are being your best self"

Thats bollox lol sharp x

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By *icassolifelikeMan over a year ago

Luton

I’m a man and I do men things.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I honestly don't even know what masculinity is anymore and I don't care.

My dad was a man's man.

And he abandoned his family at the drop of a hat.

So my idea of what a man is has been shaped by him and his lack.

I don't put much stock in posturing or pissing contests. I don't need to be the best at anything.

I need to be a decent person.

I need to be there for my kids and wife and I need be a good role model.

I'm protective but not keeping my kids from learning about life

I'm masculine I think. But I also don't care. I have to just be me.

That's something my dad never knew.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"As a man I like 2 think women would say I'm masculine. In looks. .body. smell. aperance .my personality...but I like 2 look after my skin nivea and botox so does that give me a feminine side x

That's bollox.

Looking after your skin makes sense.

You are being your best self

Thats bollox lol sharp x "

I'm not saying you are bollox or your skin care.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

You don’t think that something which is the definition of around half of the world’s population and frames the attraction for a large portion more is worth discussing?

But these social structures change our entire lives, people are threatened by them, etc.

What's our shared reality? Where do we differ? How can we help each other grow and change with society, continue being our best selves?

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By *lym4realCouple over a year ago

plymouth

Just another label really and depends on someones own viewpoint as well and mrs4 likes men that dress like men and not like teenagers when they are out and to be respectful and have a tad cheekiness ? and her father was in the army so she used to being around quite so called masculine men but as she adds they all changed nappies..did the housework..ironed ...cooked and were mostly great dads ...but the whole macho thing now is getting silly and out of hand and her rule of thumb is ..If you can't do it sober ...don't do it d*unk and don't blame the drink !!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 14/04/21 11:48:16]

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By *arker secrets 321Man over a year ago

West Bromwich

"I honestly don't even know what masculinity is anymore and I don't care.

My dad was a man's man.

And he abandoned his family at the drop of a hat.

So my idea of what a man is has been shaped by him and his lack.

I don't put much stock in posturing or pissing contests. I don't need to be the best at anything.

I need to be a decent person.

I need to be there for my kids and wife and I need be a good role model.

I'm protective but not keeping my kids from learning about life

I'm masculine I think. But I also don't care. I have to just be me.

That's something my dad never knew. "

Utmost respect

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 14/04/21 11:48:16]"

Damn spelling ..

I’m a man who’s masculinity is measured by how much wood I can chop with my top off until I need to stop and take a drink from a can of Coke

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By *arker secrets 321Man over a year ago

West Bromwich

"As a man I like 2 think women would say I'm masculine. In looks. .body. smell. aperance .my personality...but I like 2 look after my skin nivea and botox so does that give me a feminine side x

That's bollox.

Looking after your skin makes sense.

You are being your best self

Thats bollox lol sharp x

I'm not saying you are bollox or your skin care. "

It's fine my friend

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By *parkle1974Woman over a year ago

Leeds

Masculinity can be interpretated in so many ways in the exact same way as femininity. I wouldn't say I'm a girly girl which is usually the definition some men have.

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By *parkle1974Woman over a year ago

Leeds

"[Removed by poster at 14/04/21 11:48:16]

Damn spelling ..

I’m a man who’s masculinity is measured by how much wood I can chop with my top off until I need to stop and take a drink from a can of Coke"

And how much is that..asking for a friend

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By *orders CoupleCouple over a year ago

Kelso

Protective, supportive, caring, compassionate, nurturing etc.

Masculinity hasn't changed. Like so many other things, the interpretation and representation has been changed to suit a person's needs at the time and not necessarily for the good.

I can't say I worry about being masculine. To me, being an individual who is decent is more important than being masculine. Maybe it's a masculine trait to be strong enough not to worry about being masculine!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The dictionary says...

masculine:

adjective

having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men.

"he is outstandingly handsome and robust, very masculine"

What do we think of this?

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By *ocksareoffMan over a year ago

Out n About

And there's me thinking it was a dude spraying copious amounts of Lynx Africa haha

Well you live n learn.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The dictionary says...

masculine:

adjective

having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men.

"he is outstandingly handsome and robust, very masculine"

What do we think of this?"

Also this.

Traits traditionally viewed as masculine in Western society include strength, courage, independence, leadership, and assertiveness.

There are also examples of female masculinity. So masculinity isn't necessarily limited to men, the same as femininity isn't limited to women.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Protective, supportive, caring, compassionate, nurturing etc.

Masculinity hasn't changed. Like so many other things, the interpretation and representation has been changed to suit a person's needs at the time and not necessarily for the good.

Exactly this.

The demonstration to suit a narrative, has completely lost focus on what it actually means to be masculine.

I mean I know so many traits of women that would would considered toxic if/when possessed by men, yet in women you get the same response as the "boys will be boys" comparative and completely ignore that it's the people that are toxic, man or women, masculine or feminine.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"The dictionary says...

masculine:

adjective

having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men.

"he is outstandingly handsome and robust, very masculine"

What do we think of this?"

Circular.

Masculine is an attribute possessed by men.

Tells me nothing.

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By *oeBeansMan over a year ago

Derby

You don’t think that something which is the definition of around half of the world’s population and frames the attraction for a large portion more is worth discussing?

But these social structures change our entire lives, people are threatened by them, etc.

What's our shared reality? Where do we differ? How can we help each other grow and change with society, continue being our best selves?"

I think with anything like this, you have to want to change your mindset instead of having it forced on you. Perhaps if something changes with enough clout behind it, people change their perceptions in the hope that they don't become an outcast but some can still harbour onto those previous feelings regardless of the change around them.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I've never thought of masculine as being toxic anyway ... people can be toxic or not! (Its not just down to gender and we do toxicity different as well) I also don't think men and women are in anyway the same thankfully (actually believe that trying to become the same is denying ourselves our differences) ... we should enjoy and embrace our differences!

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The dictionary says...

masculine:

adjective

having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men.

"he is outstandingly handsome and robust, very masculine"

What do we think of this?

Circular.

Masculine is an attribute possessed by men.

Tells me nothing."

I think the dictionary has to define it like this as the term 'masculine' will conjur up different things for different people and societal definitions of it will change.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But in answer to the actual OP (I waffled) I think the term masculinity will mean different things to different people, based on a man and what we want/see

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By *rder66Man over a year ago

Tatooine

"I’m a man and I do men things. "
What are man things?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

One assumes that it’s the opposite of femininity. If that helps.

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By *atricia ParnelWoman over a year ago

In a town full of colours

To me masculinity Is emotional intelligence, confidence, strong values and standards wrapped up in one person that I can rely on.

I prefer men in touch with their feminity as well, a nice evenly balanced stable man

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"To me masculinity Is emotional intelligence, confidence, strong values and standards wrapped up in one person that I can rely on.

I prefer men in touch with their feminity as well, a nice evenly balanced stable man "

So you are saying there's a chance!!!

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By *atricia ParnelWoman over a year ago

In a town full of colours

"To me masculinity Is emotional intelligence, confidence, strong values and standards wrapped up in one person that I can rely on.

I prefer men in touch with their feminity as well, a nice evenly balanced stable man

So you are saying there's a chance!!!"

I could quite happily peruse you cooking dinner for us

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

You don’t think that something which is the definition of around half of the world’s population and frames the attraction for a large portion more is worth discussing?

But these social structures change our entire lives, people are threatened by them, etc.

What's our shared reality? Where do we differ? How can we help each other grow and change with society, continue being our best selves?

Of course. But for me, knowing is a form of empowerment. Understanding what's happening, how you might fit into it, rather than just railing against it. Be a part of it, if you'd like.

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By *oeBeansMan over a year ago

Derby

You don’t think that something which is the definition of around half of the world’s population and frames the attraction for a large portion more is worth discussing?

But these social structures change our entire lives, people are threatened by them, etc.

What's our shared reality? Where do we differ? How can we help each other grow and change with society, continue being our best selves?

Of course. But for me, knowing is a form of empowerment. Understanding what's happening, how you might fit into it, rather than just railing against it. Be a part of it, if you'd like."

That's true, it's always good to know where you stand within a definition of something, but on the other side of that coin, there can be pressure to live up to what that definition is. Take masculinity for example, if you have everyone trying to live up to that definition, there leaves little room for originality and men can feel inadequate if they don't live up to the definition that society has given to that term.

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By *rHotNottsMan over a year ago

Dubai & Nottingham

The Morality of Masculinity was on R4 recently , very interesting , it’s still on catch-up

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

You don’t think that something which is the definition of around half of the world’s population and frames the attraction for a large portion more is worth discussing?

But these social structures change our entire lives, people are threatened by them, etc.

What's our shared reality? Where do we differ? How can we help each other grow and change with society, continue being our best selves?

Of course. But for me, knowing is a form of empowerment. Understanding what's happening, how you might fit into it, rather than just railing against it. Be a part of it, if you'd like.

Oh, agreed. But be aware of the definition and how you feel about it. You don't have to be beholden to it. What's happening culturally and why, where you do stand? Who are you, and how might that or might not that relate to the shifting sands of gender norms?

As I say, women are perhaps more fortunate here - we already have that framework for ourselves. I hope that such a framework gains acceptance for men and that you're all beneficiaries of it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think this is the thing. People sometimes feel it an either/or and forget there is a variable scale. One that could stretch across either end. But you could also have a different marker on the feminine scale. One doesn't mean you can't have markers of the other nor that you have to fit everything covered under the description. You can take multiple forms of each side individually. Every label could cover a whole range of variants that wouldn't match up to the next.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

So much.

Whatever notion of masculinity a cis man might have, he doesn't have to live up to it. He can be the person he wants to be. These idealised notions trap us.

I am who I am, some culturally feminine, some culturally masculine, some neither, some both. It's just me, and I try not to let the narratives threaten my sense of self. But, as a cis woman, my framework for doing so is decades old and quite robust.

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By *hilloutMan over a year ago

All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest

Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

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By *tephTV67TV/TS over a year ago

Cheshire

As a younger guy I was instructed in what masculinity is by my father. So when he found out I crossdressed I got an education in what a real man does or doesn’t do, I’m just surprised I didn’t end up in hospital.

So I joined the Army, tried out for the boxing team, got a motorbike, played rugby all to show my father I matched up to the manly expectations he had of me.

As an older man I’m more content with my masculinity than I ever have, maybe it’s because I proved to myself I could do, what other guys could or couldn’t do, or that I no longer cared about other people with closed or biased minds. Either way if true masculinity is being something I’m not, then I’ll be the man I am

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think it’s easier for people who are attracted to it, to quantify it, cause most men aren’t conscious of it cause it’s just who they are, it’s only when a woman points these things out that you even notice. Like the arm behind the headrest thing, I never noticed it before women said they like it. Like a woman said to me she likes how builders eat a pasty in just a few bites, I just think the blokes clearly just hungry. So I think women are better to point these things out cause most blokes wouldn’t take any notice. It’s like i can’t really quantify what femininity is, but I like it when I see it, I pointed out something an ex girlfriend used to do and she wasn’t even aware she did it, but I used to find it really endearing.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"As a younger guy I was instructed in what masculinity is by my father. So when he found out I crossdressed I got an education in what a real man does or doesn’t do, I’m just surprised I didn’t end up in hospital.

So I joined the Army, tried out for the boxing team, got a motorbike, played rugby all to show my father I matched up to the manly expectations he had of me.

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine."

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"I think it’s easier for people who are attracted to it, to quantify it, cause most men aren’t conscious of it cause it’s just who they are, it’s only when a woman points these things out that you even notice. Like the arm behind the headrest thing, I never noticed it before women said they like it. Like a woman said to me she likes how builders eat a pasty in just a few bites, I just think the blokes clearly just hungry. So I think women are better to point these things out cause most blokes wouldn’t take any notice. It’s like i can’t really quantify what femininity is, but I like it when I see it, I pointed out something an ex girlfriend used to do and she wasn’t even aware she did it, but I used to find it really endearing.

That’s an interesting point and partially why I asked this group, not an all male group. But also I think that what some consider to be a masculine trait is actually just a human or an individuals traits.

Ultimately though, eating a pasty that fast is definitely a strong contender

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine."

So it's kill or be killed. Survival of the fittest. There are other clichés I could add but what's the point.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think it's just a label, it's not even important really.

I mean no employer asks a man to be a 'man's man' and most jobs I worked, where there was a culture of that attitude, were low paid jobs that I did when I was 17-22 years old.

I think being able to self assess, analyse and be introspective are far more appropriate virtues and values.

The only thing I question - and that's the wrong phrase, is how do you help younger men, or left behind men embrace masculinity - however they view it, in a healthy way.

Beyond that, if I look masculine when I'm lifting heavy things or doing cardio and it gets a woman hot and bothered, who cares?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Who decides whats toxic?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Who decides whats toxic?"

Life does. If your behaviour makes others feel like shit, it's fair to say that's toxic.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Who decides whats toxic?"

Victims.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Who decides whats toxic?

Victims. "

How do they determine what the cause is. Like how is it then related to masculine traits, rather than the individual person.

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By *ecadent_DevonMan over a year ago

Okehampton

The word masculine is describe as having both traditional or conventional connotations. Effectively masculinity is a product of the society it resides in.

It is all the rage to add the prefix “toxic” to it, as this also is a product of a changing society where the traditions and connotations of the past are erased.

Whether I consider myself masculine or presenting masculinity is moot, I am a man, what society decides to attribute to my gender (either positive or negative) is inconsequential, It will not change my actions and I will remain a man.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Actually toxic is when it's a system of behaviour.

Bullying boys into being stronger and more competitive by sports is a toxic environment.

There is obviously a line where it goes from being supportive to being toxic. If we want to parce hairs you can go to town.

Personally I detest it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Who decides whats toxic?

Victims.

How do they determine what the cause is. Like how is it then related to masculine traits, rather than the individual person. "

I don't know! I'm reading through thread to understand myself. I would say it's gender exclusive.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Who decides whats toxic?

Victims.

How do they determine what the cause is. Like how is it then related to masculine traits, rather than the individual person.

I don't know! I'm reading through thread to understand myself. I would say it's gender exclusive. "

Wouldn't!

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By *ljamMan over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind"

Yep... those are pretty general positive traits across humanity. To think they are the preserve of men seems extremely narrow-minded.

The question of masculinity is one thing, the debate should really be about what are these traits which society sees as masculine? Why does it see them as such? Are they positive or negative (aka toxic)? And finally, how meaningful are these traits really, and meaningful should they be?

It's easier to just fling up a few stereotypes and context-free attributes and say "that's what being a man is"... easier and completely meaningless.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Seems to me its easier to blame the bloke these days

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

Yep... those are pretty general positive traits across humanity. To think they are the preserve of men seems extremely narrow-minded.

It's easier to just fling up a few stereotypes and context-free attributes and say "that's what being a man is"... easier and completely meaningless.

But I don't think masculine = men only. You can have masculine and feminine traits being man or women. A feminine man is still as equally a man as a masculine one.

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By *ljamMan over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Seems to me its easier to blame the bloke these days "

Seems to me whining has become an increasingly more common male trait these days.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Who decides whats toxic?

Victims.

How do they determine what the cause is. Like how is it then related to masculine traits, rather than the individual person.

I don't know! I'm reading through thread to understand myself. I would say it's gender exclusive.

Wouldn't!"

See this is my thinking. Masculine and feminine isn't just one for man, one for women. They interchange.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Seems to me its easier to blame the bloke these days

Seems to me whining has become an increasingly more common male trait these days. "
so are you saying men cant be victims?

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By *ljamMan over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

Yep... those are pretty general positive traits across humanity. To think they are the preserve of men seems extremely narrow-minded.

It's easier to just fling up a few stereotypes and context-free attributes and say "that's what being a man is"... easier and completely meaningless.

But I don't think masculine = men only. You can have masculine and feminine traits being man or women. A feminine man is still as equally a man as a masculine one. "

Yeah, totally - I don't think so either. That's what I'd throw into my final question, how meaningful are these traits? I don't think they're that meaningful, but I know some men view their identity through the fragile lens of what masculinity is.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Who decides whats toxic?

Victims.

How do they determine what the cause is. Like how is it then related to masculine traits, rather than the individual person.

I don't know! I'm reading through thread to understand myself. I would say it's gender exclusive. "

women can have toxic behaviour too.

Gossiping and shaming people for behaviour is a toxic thing to do.

But personally I have not had experience with that as much.

Also a lot of male toxic behaviour has physical elements to it. Or at least it did for me

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By *ljamMan over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Seems to me its easier to blame the bloke these days

Seems to me whining has become an increasingly more common male trait these days. so are you saying men cant be victims? "

Nope.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Actually toxic is when it's a system of behaviour.

Bullying boys into being stronger and more competitive by sports is a toxic environment.

There is obviously a line where it goes from being supportive to being toxic. If we want to parce hairs you can go to town.

Personally I detest it "

Yes, I think it's labelling a system of behaviours, groups, and systems of power which oppress us all.

How do we free people? Not just the oppressed, but also those who benefit from the oppression in some ways?

How do we empower all of us to be our best selves?

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Seems to me its easier to blame the bloke these days

Seems to me whining has become an increasingly more common male trait these days. "

Shots fired

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Seems to me its easier to blame the bloke these days "

Thats because you are a bloke. And we do shitty things at times.

When I was a kid it was acceptable to get a girl d*unk to have your way with her. Get her blind d*unk and you could do anything. But that's not something that anyone should do. That's horrible.

I remember watching the movie the snapper when I was in school and the lead falls down into a car d*unk and dirty old Georgie burgess fucks her from behind. And it's played off as a joke. It's funny. Watching it 20 years later it's just sexual assault.

That's toxic behaviour that is no longer acceptable

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By *hilloutMan over a year ago

All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind"

No one has a monopoly or right of exclusivity to them but facts are facts. Throughout human history they have been associated as being masculine traits. Traits such as beauty, nurturing, agreeableness and submissiveness were associated as being feminine.

Only in the post modernist west are longstanding masculine traits now considered to be feminine. Go anywhere else in the world (most of Eurasia, middle east, africa and south america) and people clearly dustinguish masculine from feminine. "Toxic masculinity" is an alien term to them.

I have no issues with women acting masculine and personally like strong women. I just won't say they're feminine for doing so.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Actually toxic is when it's a system of behaviour.

Bullying boys into being stronger and more competitive by sports is a toxic environment.

There is obviously a line where it goes from being supportive to being toxic. If we want to parce hairs you can go to town.

Personally I detest it

Yes, I think it's labelling a system of behaviours, groups, and systems of power which oppress us all.

How do we free people? Not just the oppressed, but also those who benefit from the oppression in some ways?

How do we empower all of us to be our best selves?"

I don't see the terms oppressive as such. One shows a more nurturing nature the other a more protective so to speak. What becomes oppressive is the pushed belief that as a man you can only be masculine and as a women you can only be feminine. This is mostly taught at home and, pusher by what/who we expose children to. It's very much taught culturally here to "fit in" and box ourselves with a narrowed view when trying to find who we are. rather than showing and discussing the variants of how the two interchange and can be spread across men and women. But this can go for many different scenarios to.

The more we push the culture of conformity and being like everyone else, the more we lose individualism and less celebrate the differences.

It's how it's taught and we Don't particularly encourage free or critical thinking that makes it oppressive.

"This is your box, stay within it" rather than "here are your boxes you can be made up from so many different traits and have markers over different levels. " kind of thing. It's how you're shown what makes you, you I suppose.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Actually toxic is when it's a system of behaviour.

Bullying boys into being stronger and more competitive by sports is a toxic environment.

There is obviously a line where it goes from being supportive to being toxic. If we want to parce hairs you can go to town.

Personally I detest it

Yes, I think it's labelling a system of behaviours, groups, and systems of power which oppress us all.

How do we free people? Not just the oppressed, but also those who benefit from the oppression in some ways?

How do we empower all of us to be our best selves?

The more we push the culture of conformity and being like everyone else, the more we lose individualism and less celebrate the differences.

It's how it's taught and we Don't particularly encourage free or critical thinking that makes it oppressive.

I don't think we should be so limited, and think there's considerable anguish hidden within that conformity or attempts to conform.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If everyone were gender neutral, life would be bloody boring.

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Who decides whats toxic?

Life does. If your behaviour makes others feel like shit, it's fair to say that's toxic.

Also if it negatively affects that persons ability to function or process, then it’s actively toxic

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I have absolutely no idea what is masculine or feminine beyond the traditional stereotypes, which are outdated and should be obsolete. So many traits listed above as being posistively masculine are also possessed by women and the only conclusion I can come to is that gender stereotypes are harmfully limiting for everyone as personality traits cannot be gendered. Anyone can be protective, strong, self-assured, meek, self-effacing, analytical, emotionally reactive, gossipy, manipulative, etc...

I'm leaning towards physical mannerisms being the only thing about a person that can be masculine or feminine; the way a person walks, holds themselves, clothes etc, and even then there are no clear-cut boundaries.

In short, I haven't a fucking clue

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If everyone were gender neutral, life would be bloody boring."

I'm not attracted to gender neutral at all.

I like manly men and girly girls

Words mean different things to different people - masculinity has some very specific traits that for some reason I can't articulate

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I have absolutely no idea what is masculine or feminine beyond the traditional stereotypes, which are outdated and should be obsolete. So many traits listed above as being posistively masculine are also possessed by women and the only conclusion I can come to is that gender stereotypes are harmfully limiting for everyone as personality traits cannot be gendered. Anyone can be protective, strong, self-assured, meek, self-effacing, analytical, emotionally reactive, gossipy, manipulative, etc...

In short, I haven't a fucking clue

Me neither - why is that

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"The word masculine is describe as having both traditional or conventional connotations. Effectively masculinity is a product of the society it resides in.

It is all the rage to add the prefix “toxic” to it, as this also is a product of a changing society where the traditions and connotations of the past are erased.

It’s nice to see you back again!

I think that it’s not so much a case of ‘all the rage’ but more a matter of recognising the traits (traditionally attributed to men) that prevent and preclude emotional maturity or handling situations that impact their ‘masculinity’, leading to suicide.

The rest of your comment I kind of agree with more or less, in as much as it’s a gallic shrug

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By *ljamMan over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

I have no issues with women acting masculine and personally like strong women. I just won't say they're feminine for doing so. "

Don't back down, double down

Again, specifically the traits you've picked are not masculine... or are you really saying the urge to protect isn't something women have? Haha - try fucking with a women's kids and see how protective she can be!

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

In short, I haven't a fucking clue

It’s all a bit of a complex concept, isn’t it!

And yet, people post on their profiles or on threads about wanting ‘manly men’...

It seems fairly clear that no one actually knows what it is, beyond the trope

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By *hilloutMan over a year ago

All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

I have no issues with women acting masculine and personally like strong women. I just won't say they're feminine for doing so.

Don't back down, double down

Why should I back down for having a defined opinion on the matter? I care not if it runs contrary to the accepted view people in the liberal west hold. The question was asked and I answered.

The example you gave is splitting hairs. Everyone knows how a maternal instinct can drive a fight response when a threat to progeny exists.

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"If everyone were gender neutral, life would be bloody boring.

I'm not attracted to gender neutral at all.

I like manly men and girly girls

Words mean different things to different people - masculinity has some very specific traits that for some reason I can't articulate

I’ve just spotted your post, my comment wasn’t aimed at you, it’s just mildly ironic that you write that!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Actually toxic is when it's a system of behaviour.

Bullying boys into being stronger and more competitive by sports is a toxic environment.

There is obviously a line where it goes from being supportive to being toxic. If we want to parce hairs you can go to town.

Personally I detest it

Yes, I think it's labelling a system of behaviours, groups, and systems of power which oppress us all.

How do we free people? Not just the oppressed, but also those who benefit from the oppression in some ways?

How do we empower all of us to be our best selves?

The more we push the culture of conformity and being like everyone else, the more we lose individualism and less celebrate the differences.

It's how it's taught and we Don't particularly encourage free or critical thinking that makes it oppressive.

I don't think we should be so limited, and think there's considerable anguish hidden within that conformity or attempts to conform."

That's the thing. It's how we teach out children how to look at themselves. I think it's healthier to show we can all share the same things that make us up, but that we all have different levels of them. You're both identifying with everyone receiving that belongs urge but also realising your own individual share of each different marker makes you unique. So can find your own balance rather than have it forced on you.

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By *ad NannaWoman over a year ago

East London

"The dictionary says...

masculine:

adjective

having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men.

"he is outstandingly handsome and robust, very masculine"

What do we think of this?"

A man wrote it.

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By *ad NannaWoman over a year ago

East London

My masculine men friends look after their skin, hair and nails.

They have more shoes than me.

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By *ecadent_DevonMan over a year ago

Okehampton

"The word masculine is describe as having both traditional or conventional connotations. Effectively masculinity is a product of the society it resides in.

It is all the rage to add the prefix “toxic” to it, as this also is a product of a changing society where the traditions and connotations of the past are erased.

It’s nice to see you back again!

The rest of your comment I kind of agree with more or less, in as much as it’s a gallic shrug"

I guess the point is simple. The idea of masculinity is a construct and in the past it was described to empower people that had certain personality traits to make themselves desirable or powerful, over time many of those traits have changed to now be viewed as domineering, controlling or aggressive in nature and therefore the prefix “toxic” is applied (and probably quite rightly so, however I dislike the word use)

Like many things in this life there are extremes in behaviour and I believe that these extremes cannot be ascribed to a gender.

I think it is important to note that behaving in a masculine way is a choice. Behaving in a male way is part of a mans nature. There are differences and half the battle of being masculine is silencing the more base, male, animal instincts

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Actually toxic is when it's a system of behaviour.

Bullying boys into being stronger and more competitive by sports is a toxic environment.

There is obviously a line where it goes from being supportive to being toxic. If we want to parce hairs you can go to town.

Personally I detest it

Yes, I think it's labelling a system of behaviours, groups, and systems of power which oppress us all.

How do we free people? Not just the oppressed, but also those who benefit from the oppression in some ways?

How do we empower all of us to be our best selves?

The more we push the culture of conformity and being like everyone else, the more we lose individualism and less celebrate the differences.

It's how it's taught and we Don't particularly encourage free or critical thinking that makes it oppressive.

I don't think we should be so limited, and think there's considerable anguish hidden within that conformity or attempts to conform.

Sure. But we also confront our own teaching to be better members of the community. My modelling of the feminine is not me at all - it took me some time to disentangle without going down a path of self loathing. Let's unshackle ourselves and others.

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By *ljamMan over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

I have no issues with women acting masculine and personally like strong women. I just won't say they're feminine for doing so.

Don't back down, double down

Why should I back down for having a defined opinion on the matter? I care not if it runs contrary to the accepted view people in the liberal west hold. The question was asked and I answered.

The example you gave is splitting hairs. Everyone knows how a maternal instinct can drive a fight response when a threat to progeny exists."

Splitting hairs... or neatly proving one of your core "masculine" traits is anything but, as you concede yourself.

Ah running contrary to the liberal west... the implication being that you don't believe in liberty, ie the quality or state of being free. How very manly.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"If everyone were gender neutral, life would be bloody boring.

I'm not attracted to gender neutral at all.

I like manly men and girly girls

Words mean different things to different people - masculinity has some very specific traits that for some reason I can't articulate

I’ve just spotted your post, my comment wasn’t aimed at you, it’s just mildly ironic that you write that!

So a few things that I find masculine are body language, mannerisms, voice, dress sense, smell.

Like I said I find it hard to articulate.

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"The word masculine is describe as having both traditional or conventional connotations. Effectively masculinity is a product of the society it resides in.

It is all the rage to add the prefix “toxic” to it, as this also is a product of a changing society where the traditions and connotations of the past are erased.

It’s nice to see you back again!

The rest of your comment I kind of agree with more or less, in as much as it’s a gallic shrug

Like many things in this life there are extremes in behaviour and I believe that these extremes cannot be ascribed to a gender.

Nicely phrased.

In general terms though, what do you think typifies a man?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Masculinity to me is being comfortable to embrace myself as the man I am, being ok that with that, and to show ppl the more vunerable to side me, in regards to letting them into.my emotions, what makes me emotional and discussing that, thats for me, it won't resonate with all, but maybe some I don't know, its just my take on it

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"If everyone were gender neutral, life would be bloody boring.

I'm not attracted to gender neutral at all.

I like manly men and girly girls

Words mean different things to different people - masculinity has some very specific traits that for some reason I can't articulate

I’ve just spotted your post, my comment wasn’t aimed at you, it’s just mildly ironic that you write that!

So a few things that I find masculine are body language, mannerisms, voice, dress sense, smell.

Like I said I find it hard to articulate.

It is hard, that’s partially why I posted the thread!

I think that what you consider to be manly would not be held by others though, it appears that there’s little commonality between definitions

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Masculinity to me is being comfortable to embrace myself as the man I am, being ok that with that, and to show ppl the more vunerable to side me, in regards to letting them into.my emotions, what makes me emotional and discussing that, thats for me, it won't resonate with all, but maybe some I don't know, its just my take on it "

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

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By *host63Man over a year ago

Bedfont Feltham

Interesting subject. I do a lot if partner dancing and I'm pretty good.

A lot of my dance partners have said I come across as very masculine even though j don't try and project it

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By *host63Man over a year ago

Bedfont Feltham

"I've never thought of masculine as being toxic anyway ... people can be toxic or not! (Its not just down to gender and we do toxicity different as well) I also don't think men and women are in anyway the same thankfully (actually believe that trying to become the same is denying ourselves our differences) ... we should enjoy and embrace our differences!

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

And that is the perfect reply.

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By *ecadent_DevonMan over a year ago

Okehampton

"The word masculine is describe as having both traditional or conventional connotations. Effectively masculinity is a product of the society it resides in.

It is all the rage to add the prefix “toxic” to it, as this also is a product of a changing society where the traditions and connotations of the past are erased.

It’s nice to see you back again!

The rest of your comment I kind of agree with more or less, in as much as it’s a gallic shrug

Like many things in this life there are extremes in behaviour and I believe that these extremes cannot be ascribed to a gender.

Nicely phrased.

In general terms though, what do you think typifies a man? "

I don’t think you can, unless you resort to stereotypes or (animalistic) behaviours, emotional behaviour is influenced by what is and what isn’t acceptable within society and that is in flux and varies depending on culture and other influences.

From an extremely personal perspective I think what typifies a man is “alone”, psychologically as we have yet to embrace fully the changes that society is allowing us (I.e. to talk)

I like many am horrified by the simple fact that the most common cause of death of men between the ages of 20-49 is suicide. And I have asked myself why, I can only understand it if I take the view of the pack animal, if I fail to lead the pack, or fail to have a role in that pack, I will be pushed out of that pack, pack animals tend to die when pushed from the pack as the support network that provided for them or enabled them has gone.

Humans have the luxury of physical self sufficiency through societal constructs but not psychologically self sufficiency, so rather than curling up and dying of hunger, they curl up and die from perceived failure. Masculinity, or at least the notion of it, has prompted that feeling of failure and that, perhaps is the saddest result of the whole debate.

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By *hilloutMan over a year ago

All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

I have no issues with women acting masculine and personally like strong women. I just won't say they're feminine for doing so.

Don't back down, double down

Why should I back down for having a defined opinion on the matter? I care not if it runs contrary to the accepted view people in the liberal west hold. The question was asked and I answered.

The example you gave is splitting hairs. Everyone knows how a maternal instinct can drive a fight response when a threat to progeny exists.

Splitting hairs... or neatly proving one of your core "masculine" traits is anything but, as you concede yourself.

Ah running contrary to the liberal west... the implication being that you don't believe in liberty, ie the quality or state of being free. How very manly.

I haven't implied anything. Only you have. I have never stated that people shouldn't be free to do what they want. You do you.

And yes, I do consider myself manly, thank you

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics..."

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

But I don't think masculine = men only. You can have masculine and feminine traits being man or women. A feminine man is still as equally a man as a masculine one.

This is what I mean. People see masculinity exclusive to men and femininity exclusive to women, where as it is just men typically fall a higher end of one and women the other. But no one makes up the same amount of each trait nor do they have to be limited, in which nor cover all of a single scale. The scale is very depending on person. And doesn't lessen or heighten how much of a man or women you are.

People use the terminally as though it's a very small grid with little room for variety. I don't particularly associate masculinity exclusively to men, nor femininity to women, and that's where there becomes very different views on what it is.

I personally hate how people determine how much of a man or women you are based on your individually make up noy matching theirs or their idea of what it should be. You will always be a real man or real women, just have your own personal identity! None of this makes you better than or less than another.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas "

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it.

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By *ljamMan over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

I have no issues with women acting masculine and personally like strong women. I just won't say they're feminine for doing so.

Don't back down, double down

Why should I back down for having a defined opinion on the matter? I care not if it runs contrary to the accepted view people in the liberal west hold. The question was asked and I answered.

The example you gave is splitting hairs. Everyone knows how a maternal instinct can drive a fight response when a threat to progeny exists.

Splitting hairs... or neatly proving one of your core "masculine" traits is anything but, as you concede yourself.

Ah running contrary to the liberal west... the implication being that you don't believe in liberty, ie the quality or state of being free. How very manly.

I haven't implied anything. Only you have. I have never stated that people shouldn't be free to do what they want. You do you.

And yes, I do consider myself manly, thank you

Haha - not sure if you entirely understand how language works but hey, you do your manly self too

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By *hilloutMan over a year ago

All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

I have no issues with women acting masculine and personally like strong women. I just won't say they're feminine for doing so.

Don't back down, double down

Why should I back down for having a defined opinion on the matter? I care not if it runs contrary to the accepted view people in the liberal west hold. The question was asked and I answered.

The example you gave is splitting hairs. Everyone knows how a maternal instinct can drive a fight response when a threat to progeny exists.

Splitting hairs... or neatly proving one of your core "masculine" traits is anything but, as you concede yourself.

Ah running contrary to the liberal west... the implication being that you don't believe in liberty, ie the quality or state of being free. How very manly.

I haven't implied anything. Only you have. I have never stated that people shouldn't be free to do what they want. You do you.

And yes, I do consider myself manly, thank you

Haha - not sure if you entirely understand how language works but hey, you do your manly self too

I know exactly how it works

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it."

Just my take on it, through my life experience, how my thinking used to be based on environmental learning, and how it is nowadays through changing my environment, belief systems being smashed and reconfigured in the process

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it.

I hear you, and I'm with you. With the feminine version or at least the one through a cis female lens.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it.

I hear you, and I'm with you. With the feminine version or at least the one through a cis female lens."

Sorry whats a cis female lens??

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By *ljamMan over a year ago

Edinburgh

"Confidence, assertiveness, competitiveness.

The drive to excel, to prosper and to protect.

To not shy away from adversity or run from conflict or confrontation if it comes knocking unwanted.

I see nothing toxic about being masculine.

I think that those traits are also possessed and lauded as feminine also. They’re more human qualities to my mind

I have no issues with women acting masculine and personally like strong women. I just won't say they're feminine for doing so.

Don't back down, double down

Why should I back down for having a defined opinion on the matter? I care not if it runs contrary to the accepted view people in the liberal west hold. The question was asked and I answered.

The example you gave is splitting hairs. Everyone knows how a maternal instinct can drive a fight response when a threat to progeny exists.

Splitting hairs... or neatly proving one of your core "masculine" traits is anything but, as you concede yourself.

Ah running contrary to the liberal west... the implication being that you don't believe in liberty, ie the quality or state of being free. How very manly.

I haven't implied anything. Only you have. I have never stated that people shouldn't be free to do what they want. You do you.

And yes, I do consider myself manly, thank you

Haha - not sure if you entirely understand how language works but hey, you do your manly self too

I know exactly how it works

Evidently not from your post, but then writing well isn't for everyone. In any event it's besides the point. I've really got no interest in continuing this line of argument. It's as meaningless as claiming the urge to protect is a masculine trait. So I'll bow out of this one now. All the best.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it.

I hear you, and I'm with you. With the feminine version or at least the one through a cis female lens.

Sorry whats a cis female lens?? "

A point of view of a person who was assigned female at birth and whose identity agrees with their birth assignment.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

A cis woman is someone who was born a woman.

So a cis woman's lens is a cis woman's perspective

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it.

I hear you, and I'm with you. With the feminine version or at least the one through a cis female lens.

Sorry whats a cis female lens??

A point of view of a person who was assigned female at birth and whose identity agrees with their birth assignment."

She said it better

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it.

I hear you, and I'm with you. With the feminine version or at least the one through a cis female lens.

Sorry whats a cis female lens??

A point of view of a person who was assigned female at birth and whose identity agrees with their birth assignment.

She said it better"

Thankyou I'd never heard of it before, I've learnt something new today, that is a free gift that you both afforded me for that nice one

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it.

I hear you, and I'm with you. With the feminine version or at least the one through a cis female lens.

Sorry whats a cis female lens??

A point of view of a person who was assigned female at birth and whose identity agrees with their birth assignment.

She said it better

Thankyou I'd never heard of it before, I've learnt something new today, that is a free gift that you both afforded me for that nice one

Always helps

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

I think you've identified emotional maturity and strength. A masculine take on it.

I hear you, and I'm with you. With the feminine version or at least the one through a cis female lens.

Sorry whats a cis female lens??

A point of view of a person who was assigned female at birth and whose identity agrees with their birth assignment.

She said it better

Thankyou I'd never heard of it before, I've learnt something new today, that is a free gift that you both afforded me for that nice one

Always helps

I find being open minded helps as well

Like the old adage goes " you etch etch a new idea, onto a closed mind"

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Can't etch*

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas "

Absolutely. My response wasn’t intended as a challenge, just a point of discussion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I would probably argue that you’ve defined human characteristics...

Emotional honesty and vulnerability isint a characteristic, suppression, avoidance, distraction and denial i would more argue are human characteristics..

You asked for my opinion and take on Masculinity thats what I gave, differing views is cool, as we learn that way if open minded to others ideas

Absolutely. My response wasn’t intended as a challenge, just a point of discussion "

I didnt take it as a challenge its all gravy baby

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The way I think about it are the energies associated with the Lingam and the Yoni. Eastern mysticism does the best with this. Energies associated with Agency and Communion. Where we go wrong is then thinking it is about being male or female. The false dichotomy creates most of our gender and sexuality issues. We are all a different blend of both depending on our genes and our conditioning. Albeit men generally grow valuing agency and women valuing Communion during the conventional stages of development. See Carol Gilligan. However, Carol’s work predates much of what we are discovering in terms of gender identity. Therefore this is an area for further inquiry. As our development becomes more integral we start developing energies of the other side of our nature, so ultimately we become the integration of masculine and feminine energies or Yang and Yin. Shiva and Shakti. Universal and life force, the Divine Masculine and the Divine Feminine.

Reducing this to traits or stereotypes, seeking to eliminate, outlaw or repress our primitive instincts or dismiss differences in every individual’s coding and conditioning, and succumb to our fears of otherness are at the heart of our divisions, conflicts, predjudices and the recognition we are all distinct creative expressions of our Ultimate Unity. Each a droplet of the Divine.

Our journey is to evolve, transcending and including our previous world views in our own unique ways, until we are fully integrated and fully realise our oneness with all creation.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Who decides whats toxic?

Victims.

How do they determine what the cause is. Like how is it then related to masculine traits, rather than the individual person.

I don't know! I'm reading through thread to understand myself. I would say it's gender exclusive.

women can have toxic behaviour too.

Gossiping and shaming people for behaviour is a toxic thing to do.

But personally I have not had experience with that as much.

Also a lot of male toxic behaviour has physical elements to it. Or at least it did for me"

I meant to say would NOT say it is gender exclusive. I corrected it comment below

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 14/04/21 17:12:01]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Nice smelly aftershave is my masculinity

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A cis woman is someone who was born a woman.

So a cis woman's lens is a cis woman's perspective "

The term 'cis woman' makes my eyes roll as much as cheese being racist

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A cis woman is someone who was born a woman.

So a cis woman's lens is a cis woman's perspective

The term 'cis woman' makes my eyes roll as much as cheese being racist

I don't mind. Who am I to tell you or anyone else how to identify?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"A cis woman is someone who was born a woman.

So a cis woman's lens is a cis woman's perspective

The term 'cis woman' makes my eyes roll as much as cheese being racist

I don't mind. Who am I to tell you or anyone else how to identify?"

True story

I'm not in charge of telling anyone what words to use either - just as they have no control over me rolling my eyes

I'll just do me and everyone else can do them.

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By *uke olovingmanMan over a year ago

Gravesend

Mellors the gamekeeper in lady Chatterley's lover calls it the courage of tenderness

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By *orders CoupleCouple over a year ago

Kelso

"Protective, supportive, caring, compassionate, nurturing etc.

Masculinity hasn't changed. Like so many other things, the interpretation and representation has been changed to suit a person's needs at the time and not necessarily for the good.

Exactly this.

The demonstration to suit a narrative, has completely lost focus on what it actually means to be masculine.

Very pleased you're with me on this

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

And that is the perfect reply.

But we aren't all equal. I believe everyone should be treated equitably, but not necessarily equally (which implies being treated in an identical way). For example, if we were stuck on a dessert island, we could decide that everyone has to do everything equally... We all collect the same amount of food, water and wood. Or, we could recognise that everyone is DIFFERENT in positive ways, and come up with a system that plays to everyone's strengths, rather than just stubbornly insisting on everything being totally equal all of the time, regardless. So everyone is treated fairly, but not equally.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"[Removed by poster at 14/04/21 11:48:16]

Damn spelling ..

I’m a man who’s masculinity is measured by how much wood I can chop with my top off until I need to stop and take a drink from a can of Coke

And how much is that..asking for a friend

If it’s cold outside, I can chop enough to keep us feeling hot.

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By *ea monkey OP Man over a year ago

Manchester (he/him)

"Mellors the gamekeeper in lady Chatterley's lover calls it the courage of tenderness

That’s the sort of depraved nonsense that I’d expect from DH Lawrence

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

And that is the perfect reply.

Problem with that Kitty, is people manipulate and take advantage of others, so they do less and get more..

Although that sounds like a Utopian society which is a idealistic notion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

And that is the perfect reply.

Problem with that Kitty, is people manipulate and take advantage of others, so they do less and get more..

Although that sounds like a Utopian society which is a idealistic notion "

Perhaps, but not everyone can contribute equally. They may be sick, or physically unable, or not as strong. A civilised society recognises the value in all people, but doesn't necessarily expect everyone to contribute equally, as they recognise that the efforts involved are much greater for some. I will no doubt be weaker than you. So for me to carry the same amount of wood as you, I'll have to make many more trips and work harder... Is that really being treated equally?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

And that is the perfect reply.

I'm simple and just prefer equally ... I treat everyone equally whoever they are, being human means making allowances is just human but everyone has equal rights they're just not freely given or available!

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By *ophieslutTV/TS over a year ago

Central

"These days, I believe it is your musk.

I love the smell of a man, without the overtones of aftershave or deodorant.

More men should go au naturel

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It’s how they smell and I ain’t talking about aftershave

Aw natural?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"These days, I believe it is your musk.

I love the smell of a man, without the overtones of aftershave or deodorant.

More men should go au naturel"

Absofuckinglutey! I've never been keen on chemical smelly stuff and I'm not talking about smelly BO

but natural man smell is hot as, plus get to pick up on pheromones ... nature's natural "I want to fuck you now" smell!!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

From where im from masculinity measured by -

-Metered Proximity 'brut original' is smelt from.

-The size of your tractor.

-the radianted warmth of your pint of pedigree.

I have zero ounces of masculinity

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

And that is the perfect reply.

Problem with that Kitty, is people manipulate and take advantage of others, so they do less and get more..

Although that sounds like a Utopian society which is a idealistic notion

I agree with you that we should contribute equally according to our capabilities

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

And that is the perfect reply.

Problem with that Kitty, is people manipulate and take advantage of others, so they do less and get more..

Although that sounds like a Utopian society which is a idealistic notion

I agree with you that we should contribute equally according to our capabilities

How about people stopped arguing about semantics and personally just started treating everyone in their lives equally, we could even make allowances for being human! It might sound a little utopian but guess what? Let's try a little social responsibility and good starts within ... I personally am very happy being simple, and happy in my little life AND do, quite willingly my bit and will continue to treat everyone equally! Wouldn't it be absolutely awful if a few others did the same ... a terrible world that would be!

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS over a year ago

Stockport

Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

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By *inky_couple2020Couple over a year ago

North West

"These days, I believe it is your musk.

I love the smell of a man, without the overtones of aftershave or deodorant.

More men should go au naturel

Absofuckinglutey! I've never been keen on chemical smelly stuff and I'm not talking about smelly BO

but natural man smell is hot as, plus get to pick up on pheromones ... nature's natural "I want to fuck you now" smell!! "

I hate aftershaves, absolutely adore the natural smell of Mr KC, it's THE most delicious smell in the world

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth..."

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads "

Sounds kind of impulsive and self destructive. We should help them.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads

Sounds kind of impulsive and self destructive. We should help them."

Can they help themselves tho that's the question

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I think a lot of it boils down to confidence. It's got nothing to do with build or looks. Hubby is five nine on a good day and bisexual.. But certainly very masculine. "

Being bisexual does not affect hos masculinity. I am bi and does not affect how jenny sees me at all.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads

Sounds kind of impulsive and self destructive. We should help them.

Can they help themselves tho that's the question

Yes. Yes it is

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads

Sounds kind of impulsive and self destructive. We should help them.

Can they help themselves tho that's the question

Yes. Yes it is

As much as I'd love to help and I would, what springs to mind is head and brick wall, you know the rest

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads

Sounds kind of impulsive and self destructive. We should help them.

Can they help themselves tho that's the question

Yes. Yes it is

As much as I'd love to help and I would, what springs to mind is head and brick wall, you know the rest

Oh, I know this all too well

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I'm an equalist = everyone should be treated equally whether it's pay, ideas, feelings or whatever we want to do, actually anything

And that is the perfect reply.

Problem with that Kitty, is people manipulate and take advantage of others, so they do less and get more..

Although that sounds like a Utopian society which is a idealistic notion

I agree with you that we should contribute equally according to our capabilities

Such a refreshing change to see positivity like this post...it would be a great world if we just put the bullshit aside and worked together

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads

Sounds kind of impulsive and self destructive. We should help them.

Can they help themselves tho that's the question

Yes. Yes it is

As much as I'd love to help and I would, what springs to mind is head and brick wall, you know the rest

Oh, I know this all too well

Welcome to my real life world aswell, I have some needy sponsee's atm, its draining, when I've my own responsibilities to take of

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By *olly_chromaticTV/TS over a year ago

Stockport

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads

Sounds kind of impulsive and self destructive. We should help them.

Can they help themselves tho that's the question

Yes. Yes it is

As much as I'd love to help and I would, what springs to mind is head and brick wall, you know the rest

Oh, I know this all too well

Welcome to my real life world aswell, I have some needy sponsee's atm, its draining, when I've my own responsibilities to take of

What with the bad teeth from the Yorkies and Irn Bru, all the bottle opening, and now banging head on brick walls, it strikes me that real men must have got dentures...

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Easy

Real men don't eat quiche. They eat Yorkie bars instead. And drink Irn Bru (it's made from girders!).

Seems to me that real men must have lots of fillings in their teeth...

And open beer bottles with their teeth, and crush cans with foreheads

Sounds kind of impulsive and self destructive. We should help them.

Can they help themselves tho that's the question

Yes. Yes it is

As much as I'd love to help and I would, what springs to mind is head and brick wall, you know the rest

Oh, I know this all too well

Welcome to my real life world aswell, I have some needy sponsee's atm, its draining, when I've my own responsibilities to take of

What with the bad teeth from the Yorkies and Irn Bru, all the bottle opening, and now banging head on brick walls, it strikes me that real men must have got dentures...

Turkish implants this day n age

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

"There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality" (The Simpsons)

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By *icassolifelikeMan over a year ago

Luton

"I’m a man and I do men things. What are man things?"

Things that men do.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

And also be a ruthless dictator in the mean time

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By *hagTonightMan over a year ago

From the land of haribos.

I would say someone that are muscular and lots of hair, if I can sum it up by describing a person, it would be sébastien chabal

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By *tephTV67TV/TS over a year ago

Cheshire

"The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

"There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality" (The Simpsons)"

come on Putin (or puking as I like to call him) riding that horse topless

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I’m a man and I do men things. What are man things?

Things that men do. "
stroke the salami?

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

"There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality" (The Simpsons)

come on Putin (or puking as I like to call him) riding that horse topless

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

"There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality" (The Simpsons)

come on Putin (or puking as I like to call him) riding that horse topless

And swimming in a near frozen lake at a conference because Obama was using the gym....mans man

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

He walks shoulders back head up straight.

No time for fair weather people if's, buts or maybes.

He knows what he wants and sets out to get it.

He moves on without hesitation, fear or worry of what others think or doing.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

And btw.

I'm not discussing that with any of you.

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

"The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

"There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality" (The Simpsons)

come on Putin (or puking as I like to call him) riding that horse topless

And swimming in a near frozen lake at a conference because Obama was using the gym....mans man

Sounds like insecurity to me, but hey

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

"There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality" (The Simpsons)

come on Putin (or puking as I like to call him) riding that horse topless

And swimming in a near frozen lake at a conference because Obama was using the gym....mans man

Sounds like insecurity to me, but hey

Or some really misplaced pride and ego, but each to there own, im no psychological expert

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By *tephTV67TV/TS over a year ago

Cheshire

"The god emperor Vladimir Putin is the global definition of masculinity, men compare yourself to the Russian big man and see how you stack up.

If you are within reach then you are indeed a prime masculine mans man. Real manly infact ,

"There goes the last lingering thread of my heterosexuality" (The Simpsons)

come on Putin (or puking as I like to call him) riding that horse topless

And swimming in a near frozen lake at a conference because Obama was using the gym....mans man

Sounds like insecurity to me, but hey

Or some really misplaced pride and ego, but each to there own, im no psychological expert

I saw some news report over Russian people’s idea of a great leader. They require him to be ultra macho, fighting bears, riding motorbikes, climbing mountains, bare chested horse riding and swimming in frozen rivers plays up to the voters. They then see him as a strong man a strong leader ....basically the complete opposite of Donald Trump

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By *naswingdressWoman over a year ago

Manchester (she/her)

It's such a timely issue, OP, and I think it's something that causes people a lot more angst than they might realise. As women take up more space in the world and start occupying traditionally "masculine" attributes from which they've been excluded, what does it mean to be a man?

I hope that men can find a way to interrogate their own sense of identity, to be true to themselves, without attacking or devaluing other gender identities. I don't envy the process of having to build up the framework that women have, courtesy of feminism. I imagine that will be profoundly challenging.

But it's all a process, and I hope you can all love and accept yourselves and your role within this rapidly changing world.

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