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Undercover police in clubs and bars
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"It wouldn't have helped Sarah Everard" So true  | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu "Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush. | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu
Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush." jeezus I'm sick of hearing this.
If it's not you, I'm not talking about you!
Isn't it funny tho, we all know a woman who's been harassed by a man, yet none of you seem to know a man who would harass a woman.
Don't take offence to things that aren't about you.
Do you use #alllivesmatter too?
Lu | |||
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"They've being doing it for years! Trying to catch guys how drug ladies drinks ... " Who* | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu
Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush."This sort of nonsense detracts, as it's meant to, I suspect. It's not all men, but it's enough men to mean it's a problem that should be taken seriously. As decent men, we simply need to listen to and believe women and think of how we can help. | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu
Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush."Congratulations, you get a blue Peter badge. Now, tell me exactly what men specifically we need to be educating and punishing. I'm talking names and addresses here. Until you can do that it will be 'men' mentioned in this conversation. | |||
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" Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush." And, it isn't just about physical violence. I know of many men that would never hit a woman, including my ex partner. Didn't stop him controlling my finances and who I was and was not allowed to see, including my GP. But its OK, because he never hit me. | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu
Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush.
jeezus I'm sick of hearing this.
If it's not you, I'm not talking about you!
Isn't it funny tho, we all know a woman who's been harassed by a man, yet none of you seem to know a man who would harass a woman.
Don't take offence to things that aren't about you.
Do you use #alllivesmatter too?
Lu "Well said | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. " No. Why should we sugar coat it so it's easier for them to digest? No one sugar coats it for us. We don't know who the abusers are. We're wary of men. Lu | |||
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" Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush. And, it isn't just about physical violence. I know of many men that would never hit a woman, including my ex partner. Didn't stop him controlling my finances and who I was and was not allowed to see, including my GP. But its OK, because he never hit me." Emotional abuse can be just as bad in many ways than physical. Well said | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. No. Why should we sugar coat it so it's easier for them to digest? No one sugar coats it for us. We don't know who the abusers are. We're wary of men. Lu "Is your objective to just vilify men or actually ask for them to co operate? Would you rather have all the good men on side and work with you against the abusers? | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu
Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush."As I said on another thread. I don’t feel tarred with the same brush. It’s not an attack on “all men” at all. It’s an attack on those that do it and have attitudes that never belonged in the first place. Be easy. | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. No. Why should we sugar coat it so it's easier for them to digest? No one sugar coats it for us. We don't know who the abusers are. We're wary of men. Lu
Is your objective to just vilify men or actually ask for them to co operate?
Would you rather have all the good men on side and work with you against the abusers?"
When I talk about men. I'm not talking about all men.
Those vilified are the villains.
I'm not going to feel guilty because SOME men think this is all about them.
Can you tell which men are abusers and which aren't? Cos I can't.
The good men are on side. I know lots of them.
Lu | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. " No because it's a problem that involves all men. It's our friends,family or ourselves that are acting in ways that make it a acceptable environment for this behaviour. Until the men who aren't assaulting/harassing women hold the men who do accountable then it's going to continue. Once we beat the main stigma then we can focus on who are the real abusers as there are too many catcallers, office creeps and oogling men that could become abusers. | |||
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"And to answer the OP, generally speaking the bouncers I've approached have been really useful when I've asked for help. " I have found this too. They are quite intolerant of this sort of behaviour, usually from d*unks. | |||
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"Time to stop these threads maybe.. they are becoming very decisive. As for undercover cops in bars etc.. think of any small town, the number of bars, the routes home etc etc.. the amount of police needed, it's a political message to try and placate... Freeing up more police... Not sure we have any left... Every policeman in a bar is one less to respond to live incidents... Now tell me this.. imagine one busy bar on a Friday night in a town centre.. how exactly does the officer spot the harassment.. attitudes need changing .. It won't work.." True but maybe safe areas in towns and city's, could work where you walk to if you feel you're being followed or wait for a taxi without fear. | |||
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"Time to stop these threads maybe.. they are becoming very decisive. As for undercover cops in bars etc.. think of any small town, the number of bars, the routes home etc etc.. the amount of police needed, it's a political message to try and placate... Freeing up more police... Not sure we have any left... Every policeman in a bar is one less to respond to live incidents... Now tell me this.. imagine one busy bar on a Friday night in a town centre.. how exactly does the officer spot the harassment.. attitudes need changing .. It won't work.. True but maybe safe areas in towns and city's, could work where you walk to if you feel you're being followed or wait for a taxi without fear. " Now that sounds like a plan | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. No because it's a problem that involves all men. It's our friends,family or ourselves that are acting in ways that make it a acceptable environment for this behaviour. Until the men who aren't assaulting/harassing women hold the men who do accountable then it's going to continue. Once we beat the main stigma then we can focus on who are the real abusers as there are too many catcallers, office creeps and oogling men that could become abusers." You are agreeing with my point. I think that a less divisive approach would be more beneficial. I’m not taking part in these threads any more. All I see is a bunch of angry people baying for blood. I don’t like the amount of spite and vitriol that I’ve read on these forums recently. No one seems interested in a solution, they just want blood! I fear humanity is going backwards rather than forwards. Peace out.  | |||
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"Too many officers would be needed so I don't think it would work. "  | |||
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"What upsets me with all this is will it put back the years of progress of men being abused by women... many men won't come forward as it is.... I fear this will stop them. Like with the BLM fiasco..where it was decided all lives matter.. everyone deserves the right to get home okay.. yet more men are murdered or attacked than women in general. ( yes often by men) but surely they should be looking to make the streets safer for all not just women " Fair point | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu
Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush."Well said | |||
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" Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush. And, it isn't just about physical violence. I know of many men that would never hit a woman, including my ex partner. Didn't stop him controlling my finances and who I was and was not allowed to see, including my GP. But its OK, because he never hit me."   | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. No because it's a problem that involves all men. It's our friends,family or ourselves that are acting in ways that make it a acceptable environment for this behaviour. Until the men who aren't assaulting/harassing women hold the men who do accountable then it's going to continue. Once we beat the main stigma then we can focus on who are the real abusers as there are too many catcallers, office creeps and oogling men that could become abusers. You are agreeing with my point. I think that a less divisive approach would be more beneficial. I’m not taking part in these threads any more. All I see is a bunch of angry people baying for blood. I don’t like the amount of spite and vitriol that I’ve read on these forums recently. No one seems interested in a solution, they just want blood! I fear humanity is going backwards rather than forwards. Peace out. "Yeah we're on the same side. When something like this is being spoken about so publicly you will see extreme views and anger as people are finally allowed to be upset about something they have been living with. While the argument might be divisive it is also a problem that mostly affects only one side. If you look through the forums there are many threads talking about possible solutions but most aren't practical. If you see this as humanity going backwards not forwards then how do we overcome something so prevalent without airing the anger and resentment first? Yeah the main thing to remember is your going to see the best and worst reactions on forums so it would be good to step away for a while. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. " This! | |||
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"To combat female harassment and protect women from predatory males. Can it work? Apparently there's already a pilot of this, in Thames Valley police area." Depends on the force. Large metropolitan forces always have plain clothes crime teams that focus on one particular issue, such as pick pocketing, drug dealing, stuff like that. Wouldn’t be a great issue for those teams to be retasked. Anywhere smaller just wouldn’t have the capability to do it . | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. " No because it demonises them and distances people from the issue, that’s been part of the problem | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. No because it's a problem that involves all men. It's our friends,family or ourselves that are acting in ways that make it a acceptable environment for this behaviour. Until the men who aren't assaulting/harassing women hold the men who do accountable then it's going to continue. Once we beat the main stigma then we can focus on who are the real abusers as there are too many catcallers, office creeps and oogling men that could become abusers. You are agreeing with my point. I think that a less divisive approach would be more beneficial. I’m not taking part in these threads any more. All I see is a bunch of angry people baying for blood. I don’t like the amount of spite and vitriol that I’ve read on these forums recently. No one seems interested in a solution, they just want blood! I fear humanity is going backwards rather than forwards. Peace out. "Plenty of people have given viable solutions and ongoing resolutions, the issue is when people keep springing back to the “not all men” it starts all over again. I find it ironic that some people keep causing arguments then complain that the forum is full of bad feelings. Then stop causing arguments! This issue requires actual change from people, you can’t argue around it or dismiss it. That’s what people are having trouble with; they’re going to have to alter attitudes | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. No because it's a problem that involves all men. It's our friends,family or ourselves that are acting in ways that make it a acceptable environment for this behaviour. Until the men who aren't assaulting/harassing women hold the men who do accountable then it's going to continue. Once we beat the main stigma then we can focus on who are the real abusers as there are too many catcallers, office creeps and oogling men that could become abusers. You are agreeing with my point. I think that a less divisive approach would be more beneficial. I’m not taking part in these threads any more. All I see is a bunch of angry people baying for blood. I don’t like the amount of spite and vitriol that I’ve read on these forums recently. No one seems interested in a solution, they just want blood! I fear humanity is going backwards rather than forwards. Peace out.
Plenty of people have given viable solutions and ongoing resolutions, the issue is when people keep springing back to the “not all men” it starts all over again.
I find it ironic that some people keep causing arguments then complain that the forum is full of bad feelings. Then stop causing arguments!
This issue requires actual change from people, you can’t argue around it or dismiss it. That’s what people are having trouble with; they’re going to have to alter attitudes "
You're going to have to say something I disagree with soon...  | |||
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"One aspect that needs addressing, is that at present there is such a low chance of a case making it to court, then a really low chance of a guilty verdict. It's basically a license to commit these crimes. Talk of increasing sentences is pointless, if no one is being convicted. " There was a piece in the paper which said the number of cases which actually get to court is a fraction of what is reported. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. " This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?  | |||
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"One aspect that needs addressing, is that at present there is such a low chance of a case making it to court, then a really low chance of a guilty verdict. It's basically a license to commit these crimes. Talk of increasing sentences is pointless, if no one is being convicted. There was a piece in the paper which said the number of cases which actually get to court is a fraction of what is reported." Law requires evidence, which is mostly their word against each other in these cases, so how do you change that to protect both parties ? | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. " This is the resolution. It’s simple. I don’t understand why people can’t accept this. Well I do, it’s because that requires actual action from people and guys can’t just pay lip service | |||
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"One aspect that needs addressing, is that at present there is such a low chance of a case making it to court, then a really low chance of a guilty verdict. It's basically a license to commit these crimes. Talk of increasing sentences is pointless, if no one is being convicted. There was a piece in the paper which said the number of cases which actually get to court is a fraction of what is reported. Law requires evidence, which is mostly their word against each other in these cases, so how do you change that to protect both parties ? " Dunno..its a tricky one..obvs each case wouod vary from case to case. I think it was looking at the met in particular and said they investigated a very small number (which could be a resource issue?) | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women? "Why should it be left up to the males in their lives, the mums should be doing the talking to. Both can explain what is wrong and right, how to interact with people in all aspects of life. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women? "I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested. I just took it as red. Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok? | |||
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"One aspect that needs addressing, is that at present there is such a low chance of a case making it to court, then a really low chance of a guilty verdict. It's basically a license to commit these crimes. Talk of increasing sentences is pointless, if no one is being convicted. There was a piece in the paper which said the number of cases which actually get to court is a fraction of what is reported. Law requires evidence, which is mostly their word against each other in these cases, so how do you change that to protect both parties ? Dunno..its a tricky one..obvs each case wouod vary from case to case. I think it was looking at the met in particular and said they investigated a very small number (which could be a resource issue?)" Without seeing the article and putting it into context hard to comment on why. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women? "I’m on a Dads group on FB and the general response it that dads are teaching sons respect and not to harass. However, exactly what that looks like, whether it’s reinforced and what they constitute as harassment is a different matter. I also asked a question about taking no for a complete answer and I was saddened by how many guys pester and pursue for dates | |||
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"One aspect that needs addressing, is that at present there is such a low chance of a case making it to court, then a really low chance of a guilty verdict. It's basically a license to commit these crimes. Talk of increasing sentences is pointless, if no one is being convicted. There was a piece in the paper which said the number of cases which actually get to court is a fraction of what is reported. Law requires evidence, which is mostly their word against each other in these cases, so how do you change that to protect both parties ? Dunno..its a tricky one..obvs each case wouod vary from case to case. I think it was looking at the met in particular and said they investigated a very small number (which could be a resource issue?) Without seeing the article and putting it into context hard to comment on why. " I'll try and dig it out | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested.
I just took it as red.
Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok?"Its alcohol, how many people have touched others at the disco when it was not wanted but didn't get told to stop, Same as in clubs people deem it their right to sexually touch others | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested.
I just took it as red.
Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok?
Its alcohol, how many people have touched others at the disco when it was not wanted but didn't get told to stop, Same as in clubs people deem it their right to sexually touch others"I dont think alcohol is an excuse tbh. It must still be in you. | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu "Tagging for repeat offenders. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
Why should it be left up to the males in their lives, the mums should be doing the talking to. Both can explain what is wrong and right, how to interact with people in all aspects of life. "As a father of teenage boys I often feel in damage control mode. My boys sometimes come back home with questions, expressions or attitudes which are rather remote from what I teach them. Whether they picked them up at school from friends, on the bus, on the street, on the web...i don’t know. I try my best to correct them and I hope for the best. My point being, rather than point the finger at any specific group of people (like in this case « do fathers do this or that ? ») let’s take responsibility collectively. We’re all part of the problem to some respect, we should all be part of the solution and do our bit. | |||
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" I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested. I just took it as read. Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok?" Thing is it's not necessarily about laying it out prescriptively in black and white and as much about instilling morals, values and respect and the general way you are bought up, so it's as much about how you are nurtured as anything and the values you are taught, and examples that are set for you. It doesn't have to be about being sat down and told "now don't do x, y and z" - because with the right set of values, as you say a lot of it is taken as read and is just second nature. Likewise with the wrong set of values it goes the other way - and it's that second scenario that needs to be addressed. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
Why should it be left up to the males in their lives, the mums should be doing the talking to. Both can explain what is wrong and right, how to interact with people in all aspects of life. "Totally agree. I never meant to leave the mothers out of the picture but its challenging asking the men because the majority of aggression comes from men. I said majority not all. There is aggression from women too but we are discussing men ruling men to protect women. | |||
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" I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested. I just took it as read. Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok? Thing is it's not necessarily about laying it out prescriptively in black and white and as much about instilling morals, values and respect and the general way you are bought up, so it's as much about how you are nurtured as anything and the values you are taught, and examples that are set for you. It doesn't have to be about being sat down and told "now don't do x, y and z" - because with the right set of values, as you say a lot of it is taken as read and is just second nature. Likewise with the wrong set of values it goes the other way - and it's that second scenario that needs to be addressed." True..its the whole environment. | |||
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"You know what there was a thread yesterday on toxic femininity. Not one female on that thread felt the need to say not all women. In fact some of us admitted we've made mistakes in the past and that we're not perfect. But we're open to learning and being better. " Because as women we're so damn used to hearing about, accepting and even laughing ourselves at the faults of our gender. Women are crazy, over emotional, high maintenance, gold diggers, bitchy, competitive with each other, vain, too naggy, desperate for an engagement ring, always expect to be paid for, etc, etc, etc. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
Why should it be left up to the males in their lives, the mums should be doing the talking to. Both can explain what is wrong and right, how to interact with people in all aspects of life.
As a father of teenage boys I often feel in damage control mode. My boys sometimes come back home with questions, expressions or attitudes which are rather remote from what I teach them. Whether they picked them up at school from friends, on the bus, on the street, on the web...i don’t know. I try my best to correct them and I hope for the best.
My point being, rather than point the finger at any specific group of people (like in this case « do fathers do this or that ? ») let’s take responsibility collectively. We’re all part of the problem to some respect, we should all be part of the solution and do our bit."Precisely this, I get so many questions from my lad or he’ll say something he’s picked up elsewhere. We have very frank, open chats about everything and anything, no subject is off limits. It’s been hot topic these last 3/4 weeks as gender is the topic of both English and PHSE. | |||
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"Time to stop these threads maybe.. they are becoming very decisive. As for undercover cops in bars etc.. think of any small town, the number of bars, the routes home etc etc.. the amount of police needed, it's a political message to try and placate... Freeing up more police... Not sure we have any left... Every policeman in a bar is one less to respond to live incidents... Now tell me this.. imagine one busy bar on a Friday night in a town centre.. how exactly does the officer spot the harassment.. attitudes need changing .. It won't work.. True but maybe safe areas in towns and city's, could work where you walk to if you feel you're being followed or wait for a taxi without fear. " I've seen some hotels posting on social media about offering this. A safe place women can come to where staff can call them a taxi and be around while they wait. A great idea as many have 24hr reception areas. Granted probably only useful in cities where we have hotels dotted around but its something  . | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
Why should it be left up to the males in their lives, the mums should be doing the talking to. Both can explain what is wrong and right, how to interact with people in all aspects of life.
Totally agree. I never meant to leave the mothers out of the picture but its challenging asking the men because the majority of aggression comes from men. I said majority not all. There is aggression from women too but we are discussing men ruling men to protect women."I’m confused on that last sentence, the OP is about undercover cops which contain both genders, not just men, which is where these type of conversations always seem to get pulled. It isn’t just about aggression, it’s how people are treated, talked to, mutual respect. This isn’t one gender against another. Until both genders work together to try to resolve the issue it’s going to remain a constant mud slinging contest, which gets us no where. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
Why should it be left up to the males in their lives, the mums should be doing the talking to. Both can explain what is wrong and right, how to interact with people in all aspects of life.
Totally agree. I never meant to leave the mothers out of the picture but its challenging asking the men because the majority of aggression comes from men. I said majority not all. There is aggression from women too but we are discussing men ruling men to protect women.
I’m confused on that last sentence, the OP is about undercover cops which contain both genders, not just men, which is where these type of conversations always seem to get pulled.
It isn’t just about aggression, it’s how people are treated, talked to, mutual respect. This isn’t one gender against another. Until both genders work together to try to resolve the issue it’s going to remain a constant mud slinging contest, which gets us no where. "Unfortunately women will have to give up and work together and HELP to come to a solution when they were NOT at the begginning part of the problem. but I'm up for that if that means to stop the nonsense. | |||
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"Time to stop these threads maybe.. they are becoming very decisive. As for undercover cops in bars etc.. think of any small town, the number of bars, the routes home etc etc.. the amount of police needed, it's a political message to try and placate... Freeing up more police... Not sure we have any left... Every policeman in a bar is one less to respond to live incidents... Now tell me this.. imagine one busy bar on a Friday night in a town centre.. how exactly does the officer spot the harassment.. attitudes need changing .. It won't work.. True but maybe safe areas in towns and city's, could work where you walk to if you feel you're being followed or wait for a taxi without fear. I've seen some hotels posting on social media about offering this. A safe place women can come to where staff can call them a taxi and be around while they wait. A great idea as many have 24hr reception areas. Granted probably only useful in cities where we have hotels dotted around but its something . "See this is a positive thing of having these kinds of conversations | |||
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"One aspect that needs addressing, is that at present there is such a low chance of a case making it to court, then a really low chance of a guilty verdict. It's basically a license to commit these crimes. Talk of increasing sentences is pointless, if no one is being convicted. There was a piece in the paper which said the number of cases which actually get to court is a fraction of what is reported. Law requires evidence, which is mostly their word against each other in these cases, so how do you change that to protect both parties ? " There's often little interest in gathering the evidence though. I've previously worked with victims of sexual assault through my work and often it's been me as a medical professional encouraging them to document their injuries because the police haven't done so. Even minor bruising on their wrists for example can be so vital in painting a picture and once it's gone that evidence is lost forever. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
Why should it be left up to the males in their lives, the mums should be doing the talking to. Both can explain what is wrong and right, how to interact with people in all aspects of life.
Totally agree. I never meant to leave the mothers out of the picture but its challenging asking the men because the majority of aggression comes from men. I said majority not all. There is aggression from women too but we are discussing men ruling men to protect women.
I’m confused on that last sentence, the OP is about undercover cops which contain both genders, not just men, which is where these type of conversations always seem to get pulled.
It isn’t just about aggression, it’s how people are treated, talked to, mutual respect. This isn’t one gender against another. Until both genders work together to try to resolve the issue it’s going to remain a constant mud slinging contest, which gets us no where.
Unfortunately women will have to give up and work together and HELP to come to a solution when they were NOT at the begginning part of the problem. but I'm up for that if that means to stop the nonsense."Of course they do and should he already, even if it’s within their family or friends circle, it’s a start. This isn’t something to be resolved by one gender, all genders need to listen and adapt their behaviour. Yes for some that might mean finding the strength to actually say “hey stop, that’s not right” but if you don’t speak up and tell them how do they know their behaviour is upsetting someone | |||
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"https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/rapes-london-rise-only-one-in-20-cases-police-charge-b924159.html%3famp" Thanks Lionel | |||
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"Has anyone thought of the practicalities of having undercover cops in nigh clubs. How many would you need per club. How would they actually police it?. If there is a group of lads harassing could 1 or two officers intervene? Would they have snatch squads? It would have bar room brawl written all over it.. " That's what's being discussed Thomas I dont think anyone has said it's a good idea yet. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested.
I just took it as red.
Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok?"Maybe some of it but there's also a lot of toxic messages in our culture as a whole when it comes to dating. Women play hard to get, men have to pursue them to get the girl, etc, etc. Women are socialised to be passive and "let men do the chasing". Of course the majority are socially aware enough to know where the line is between this and harassment but not everyone does. Hell I've had men I consider to be decent and friends who've I've had to have words with because of them making me uncomfortable with intense messaging and flirty comments and even my lack of response doesn't deter them. Personally I've found in my own life I have had the most success with men I approached myself. One of my partners I initiated contact with on a dating site, though he asked for the first date. The majority of my male fab meets I've messaged first. It's still hard to shake the feeling though that as a woman I seem desperate for approaching men and that maybe they're just too polite to turn me down. I know deep down it's a load of rubbish but that's how much this shit is engrained in us all. That whole culture needs to change for things to really get better but there's a lot of resistance from all sides. It's moving in the right direction though I feel. The existence of bumble for example is a good start. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
Why should it be left up to the males in their lives, the mums should be doing the talking to. Both can explain what is wrong and right, how to interact with people in all aspects of life.
As a father of teenage boys I often feel in damage control mode. My boys sometimes come back home with questions, expressions or attitudes which are rather remote from what I teach them. Whether they picked them up at school from friends, on the bus, on the street, on the web...i don’t know. I try my best to correct them and I hope for the best.
My point being, rather than point the finger at any specific group of people (like in this case « do fathers do this or that ? ») let’s take responsibility collectively. We’re all part of the problem to some respect, we should all be part of the solution and do our bit."Love this | |||
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"Not enough police to actually do this It was a member of the police who was charged re’ the recent news How many creepy fuckers will pretend to be “undercover police” and offer women assistance to either hit on them, make advances, or even worse... The cynic in me also think it’s a nice way for the government to SEEM to be doing something. They could lie and say they have 1 officer in every bar. How would you know because to prove it they would be blowing their cover. Lovey idea which they can chat shit about, not even do, but talk about how successful it is "Agreed It smacks of being seen to.be doing something. | |||
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"They'd probably try to pick the girls up themselves. Get them pregnant and disappear and then be given immunity.. All happened before with undercover arseholes. " You actually said that. We can all see it....  | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? " One bad apple n all that...... | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... " And the one who made a joke about the murder? And the ones who ignored the woman ,who said he had been harassed? | |||
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"If it's in you it's in you. It's not in me. That's got nothing to do with my schools, upbringing or social circles.. It's just not in me.. " I guess there are many people behind bars who have no idea why they did what they did on that one occasion when they lost control and acted out of character. | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... And the one who made a joke about the murder? And the ones who ignored the woman ,who said he had been harassed?" The ones who took selfies with the body  | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... And the one who made a joke about the murder? And the ones who ignored the woman ,who said he had been harassed?" That really is a spurious argument and you are still counting in ones. | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... And the one who made a joke about the murder? And the ones who ignored the woman ,who said he had been harassed? The ones who took selfies with the body "Do you mean the sisters that were killed circa last year or Sarah ? | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... And the one who made a joke about the murder? And the ones who ignored the woman ,who said he had been harassed? The ones who took selfies with the body "I'm not sure if its the same one..but what was been.suspended for making inappropriate comments..unless it's the same one? | |||
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"So speak up men and women. But more men "It can be equal, call out your own friends and family when they say something they think is innocent, show them the other side. It’s something my friends have been doing to each other for years. | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... And the one who made a joke about the murder? And the ones who ignored the woman ,who said he had been harassed? That really is a spurious argument and you are still counting in ones. " Why spurious? | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... And the one who made a joke about the murder? And the ones who ignored the woman ,who said he had been harassed? The ones who took selfies with the body
Do you mean the sisters that were killed circa last year or Sarah ?"You're right, that was two sisters. I mixed it up as it was mentioned in an article about the officer who guarded the site Sarah's body was found making jokes and sharing memes about groups of police officers abducting a woman in a whatsapp group after he went home from the site. | |||
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"I see it like this:- I go into a bar for a drink. I look around and my friends haven't arrived yet. There are lots of people behaving beautifully and smiling and laughing. There is one big burly man that I don't like the look of. Scares me shitless. keeps staring. I decide to sit with the under cover cops ..... ( you are there before me aren't you ? ) I stand in the middle of the pub n shout ...... OI .. WHICH ONE OF YOU LOT IS UNDERCOVER ???? Guess who stands up. Prize for the correct answer. " | |||
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"Almost all men have a son, a nephew, neighbour who they can help educate. If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. So stop feeling defensive and try to figure out how you can help. You are not the enemy but are you an ally?" All women also have the same relatives. It’s not an educational piece. It’s ingrained into a persons psyche. Some people are bad, and no matter how much you tell them, they won’t change. A murderer isn’t that way just because someone forgot to tell them “don’t murder people”. It’s not about enemies vs ally’s. That’s very divisive. Yes we should all work together to make the world a safer place, but people need to be a bit more logical and empathetic rather than creating further divides. | |||
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"Would this be in every pub in the UK? Where are these police coming from? " Don't sorry.. Diane Abbot has done the maths.. | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu
Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush."Maybe not all men but, we are harassed on a regular basis, attacked and our lives taken. Why does the debate always have to come back to men ! | |||
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"Why do they need to be undercover and what exactly are they meant to do? Are they going to suddenly break their cover to arrest a man that looks like he’s talking to someone that’s not interested? It sounds nonsensical. Surely it would be better to have police in uniform to deter bad behaviour. Or better yet, employ good, level headed, security that women are able to report things to (Without it escalating unnecessarily)." I was once touched up by a security guard at a bar and when I looked to see who it was he smirked at me and walked off. I approached him and calmly asked him if he touched me, he told some bullshit story about pushing chairs under tables a few metres away from me. It wasn't even possible for him to accidentally brush past me or anything from that distance and the chairs were even on the side of the table I was stood on. He went and got his boss who just kicked us out. I didn't even raise my voice. I was just upset that he felt he could get away with something like that. The bar was pretty empty too so it was so brazen. | |||
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"I’m sick of every man being tarred all of a sudden as an abuser of women ! Or is it all other men besides your father , husband , boyfriend, fiancée , uncle , grandfather , brother or friends ? " They aren't. It's the ones who are guilty only that people are talking about. | |||
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"Aren't there already security in pubs and bars to help out when people feel threatened? I know one came to my aid when I needed him, and I only gave him an eye gesture. He came over immediately and escorted the person out. " Not every single place but majority have security.. Even Mcdonalds has it... | |||
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"I’m sick of every man being tarred all of a sudden as an abuser of women ! Or is it all other men besides your father , husband , boyfriend, fiancée , uncle , grandfather , brother or friends ? " I'm sick of women and girls being harassed and attacked. I don't know who is a danger so, until then I will presume the man walking behind or towards me is a risk to me particularly in the dark. | |||
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"https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9364875/amp/PC-guarding-Sarah-Everard-murder-scene-sent-inappropriate-WhatsApp-messages-colleagues.html It was this or the sun" I read it on Kent online. I'd be burned at the stake for reading the sun here . | |||
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"I’m sick of every man being tarred all of a sudden as an abuser of women ! Or is it all other men besides your father , husband , boyfriend, fiancée , uncle , grandfather , brother or friends ? They aren't. It's the ones who are guilty only that people are talking about. " It doesn’t seem that way ! You’re a darn sight safer with the men I know around you than without them . I’m not denying for one second that I’ve not been subjected to crass comments, etc., but to jump on the latest band waggon of tarring all men with the same brush is just unethical | |||
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"I’m sick of every man being tarred all of a sudden as an abuser of women ! Or is it all other men besides your father , husband , boyfriend, fiancée , uncle , grandfather , brother or friends ? They aren't. It's the ones who are guilty only that people are talking about. It doesn’t seem that way ! You’re a darn sight safer with the men I know around you than without them . I’m not denying for one second that I’ve not been subjected to crass comments, etc., but to jump on the latest band waggon of tarring all men with the same brush is just unethical " No one is doing that | |||
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"Why do they need to be undercover and what exactly are they meant to do? Are they going to suddenly break their cover to arrest a man that looks like he’s talking to someone that’s not interested? It sounds nonsensical. Surely it would be better to have police in uniform to deter bad behaviour. Or better yet, employ good, level headed, security that women are able to report things to (Without it escalating unnecessarily). I was once touched up by a security guard at a bar and when I looked to see who it was he smirked at me and walked off. I approached him and calmly asked him if he touched me, he told some bullshit story about pushing chairs under tables a few metres away from me. It wasn't even possible for him to accidentally brush past me or anything from that distance and the chairs were even on the side of the table I was stood on. He went and got his boss who just kicked us out. I didn't even raise my voice. I was just upset that he felt he could get away with something like that. The bar was pretty empty too so it was so brazen. " I’m sorry that happened to you. Yes some security can be awful, I suppose that’s why I tried to say employ level-headed security. Because at the moment I don’t think most people have trust in bouncers. I’ve also had bad experiences with them in the past x | |||
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"I’m sick of every man being tarred all of a sudden as an abuser of women ! Or is it all other men besides your father , husband , boyfriend, fiancée , uncle , grandfather , brother or friends ? They aren't. It's the ones who are guilty only that people are talking about. It doesn’t seem that way ! You’re a darn sight safer with the men I know around you than without them . I’m not denying for one second that I’ve not been subjected to crass comments, etc., but to jump on the latest band waggon of tarring all men with the same brush is just unethical " If I read a comment that says men, I know it's not all men. In fact, I'll say it's a minority who are threatening. | |||
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"Why do they need to be undercover and what exactly are they meant to do? Are they going to suddenly break their cover to arrest a man that looks like he’s talking to someone that’s not interested? It sounds nonsensical. Surely it would be better to have police in uniform to deter bad behaviour. Or better yet, employ good, level headed, security that women are able to report things to (Without it escalating unnecessarily). I was once touched up by a security guard at a bar and when I looked to see who it was he smirked at me and walked off. I approached him and calmly asked him if he touched me, he told some bullshit story about pushing chairs under tables a few metres away from me. It wasn't even possible for him to accidentally brush past me or anything from that distance and the chairs were even on the side of the table I was stood on. He went and got his boss who just kicked us out. I didn't even raise my voice. I was just upset that he felt he could get away with something like that. The bar was pretty empty too so it was so brazen. I’m sorry that happened to you. Yes some security can be awful, I suppose that’s why I tried to say employ level-headed security. Because at the moment I don’t think most people have trust in bouncers. I’ve also had bad experiences with them in the past x" Yeah I got you . Its just sad that so often they don't. There were some great bouncers at the students union bar when I was at uni. Very friendly and they looked out for you. I saw them drag out a few d*unk guys for inappropriate behaviour and help a few too d*unk women get home okay. | |||
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" I’m sorry that happened to you. Yes some security can be awful, I suppose that’s why I tried to say employ level-headed security. Because at the moment I don’t think most people have trust in bouncers. I’ve also had bad experiences with them in the past x Yeah I got you . Its just sad that so often they don't. There were some great bouncers at the students union bar when I was at uni. Very friendly and they looked out for you. I saw them drag out a few d*unk guys for inappropriate behaviour and help a few too d*unk women get home okay. "Yeah I know what you mean. Being a bouncer seems less like a profession these days, and more like a side job that roid heads do for cash in hand. I think that could be part of the problem. In Leeds there’s a bar that always has male and female bouncers, and there’s no way I’d mess with them. The women seem to have a way about them that lets you know they’re in charge in a way that’s different to male bouncers. They have less ego. It’s made me think that maybe all bars need to start having mixed gendered security. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested.
I just took it as red.
Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok?
Maybe some of it but there's also a lot of toxic messages in our culture as a whole when it comes to dating. Women play hard to get, men have to pursue them to get the girl, etc, etc.
Women are socialised to be passive and "let men do the chasing". Of course the majority are socially aware enough to know where the line is between this and harassment but not everyone does. Hell I've had men I consider to be decent and friends who've I've had to have words with because of them making me uncomfortable with intense messaging and flirty comments and even my lack of response doesn't deter them.
Personally I've found in my own life I have had the most success with men I approached myself. One of my partners I initiated contact with on a dating site, though he asked for the first date. The majority of my male fab meets I've messaged first. It's still hard to shake the feeling though that as a woman I seem desperate for approaching men and that maybe they're just too polite to turn me down. I know deep down it's a load of rubbish but that's how much this shit is engrained in us all.
That whole culture needs to change for things to really get better but there's a lot of resistance from all sides. It's moving in the right direction though I feel. The existence of bumble for example is a good start. "I've been trying to think off an appropriate response. I agree its definitely a culture thing. Personally speaking, being totally honest,its really hard not to think..well I wouldnt do that. That isnt an attempt to say not all men are like that but to try and understand..why someone would do that. If I messeged a girl and she didnt respond..for sheer embarrassment, I wouldnt messege again. Ditto hassling a girl who isnt interested. Personally speaking, I don't understand why,anyone would do that.. That probally hasn't come out,so I apologise in advance. | |||
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" I’m sorry that happened to you. Yes some security can be awful, I suppose that’s why I tried to say employ level-headed security. Because at the moment I don’t think most people have trust in bouncers. I’ve also had bad experiences with them in the past x Yeah I got you . Its just sad that so often they don't. There were some great bouncers at the students union bar when I was at uni. Very friendly and they looked out for you. I saw them drag out a few d*unk guys for inappropriate behaviour and help a few too d*unk women get home okay.
Yeah I know what you mean. Being a bouncer seems less like a profession these days, and more like a side job that roid heads do for cash in hand. I think that could be part of the problem.
In Leeds there’s a bar that always has male and female bouncers, and there’s no way I’d mess with them. The women seem to have a way about them that lets you know they’re in charge in a way that’s different to male bouncers. They have less ego. It’s made me think that maybe all bars need to start having mixed gendered security."The lead door person at the bar I worked at was a woman. She was awesome but terrifying. It was a bar mostly of locals and a few times I saw these big, burly blokes getting a bollocking from her and grovelling for forgiveness so they didn't get barred. It's not a job I could do though. | |||
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"To combat female harassment and protect women from predatory males. Can it work? Apparently there's already a pilot of this, in Thames Valley police area." Have they enough coppers...??? Well it now seems that women may not be let out without an escort... I dont think any woman wants this. Strangely I said to Mrs could I go out with an Escort too... I got slapped... lol | |||
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"Too many officers would be needed so I don't think it would work. " Love to see them in the swingers clubs or naturist clubs... lol | |||
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"Lots of bars and clubs in Southampton have employed security and bouncers for years, it doesn't stop the attacks on people in the park though, some taxis home were not safe, some bus rides home were not safe... Predators can be anyone and anywhere" This is very true. There have been calls for years for better lighting and CCTV in the parks and it hasn't been done, anyone that knows the layout of Southampton City centre and the parks could see how this will definitely help. | |||
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"One aspect that needs addressing, is that at present there is such a low chance of a case making it to court, then a really low chance of a guilty verdict. It's basically a license to commit these crimes. Talk of increasing sentences is pointless, if no one is being convicted. " You hit the nail on the head there is no deterrent and often women feel that they won't be believed or taken seriously. | |||
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"They'd have to put them everywhere. These things don't just happen at bars and clubs. Harsher sentencing for barrassment and assaults. Better education. That would be a start. Hold men accountable. Lu
Not all men!! Some men never have and never will raise a hand to a women!! Don't tarr all men with the same brush."Agreed and I wont... I remember losing it with my Mrs when we were decorating... I walked away... She kicked the wall then I heard Ouch and a plea to take her to hospital as she had broke her toe ... lol (Not my fault... honest!). Even her mum and dad took the piss out of her as well. Still remind her of that one. | |||
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"Do they prosecute Doggers and Cottagers these days?" Whats that got to do with the subject being discussed? | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested.
I just took it as red.
Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok?
Maybe some of it but there's also a lot of toxic messages in our culture as a whole when it comes to dating. Women play hard to get, men have to pursue them to get the girl, etc, etc.
Women are socialised to be passive and "let men do the chasing". Of course the majority are socially aware enough to know where the line is between this and harassment but not everyone does. Hell I've had men I consider to be decent and friends who've I've had to have words with because of them making me uncomfortable with intense messaging and flirty comments and even my lack of response doesn't deter them.
Personally I've found in my own life I have had the most success with men I approached myself. One of my partners I initiated contact with on a dating site, though he asked for the first date. The majority of my male fab meets I've messaged first. It's still hard to shake the feeling though that as a woman I seem desperate for approaching men and that maybe they're just too polite to turn me down. I know deep down it's a load of rubbish but that's how much this shit is engrained in us all.
That whole culture needs to change for things to really get better but there's a lot of resistance from all sides. It's moving in the right direction though I feel. The existence of bumble for example is a good start.
I've been trying to think off an appropriate response.
I agree its definitely a culture thing.
Personally speaking, being totally honest,its really hard not to think..well I wouldnt do that.
That isnt an attempt to say not all men are like that but to try and understand..why someone would do that.
If I messeged a girl and she didnt respond..for sheer embarrassment, I wouldnt messege again.
Ditto hassling a girl who isnt interested.
Personally speaking, I don't understand why,anyone would do that..
That probally hasn't come out,so I apologise in advance."I'm really not saying you must do . Like I said, most are socially aware enough to know where the line is. Sadly though not all do and some just don't care. Obviously the ones who don't care there is little hope for but when people talk about education, I believe they mean the ones I'm talking about who aren't bad people but repeatedly cross the line without there being malice to it. I have a old college friend who has even posted online apologies after being told his behaviour makes people uncomfortable. There's a lot of "unspoken rules" when it comes to dating and some really do find it hard to navigate being the persuer but often as a man, if you don't adopt that role you're residing yourself to a life of being single which is sad. | |||
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"All is needed is more good Samaritans who would intervene as most don't get involved and walk by costs nothing to ask if things are ok to someone" Or maybe just for less men to behave like #####? | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested.
I just took it as red.
Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok?
Maybe some of it but there's also a lot of toxic messages in our culture as a whole when it comes to dating. Women play hard to get, men have to pursue them to get the girl, etc, etc.
Women are socialised to be passive and "let men do the chasing". Of course the majority are socially aware enough to know where the line is between this and harassment but not everyone does. Hell I've had men I consider to be decent and friends who've I've had to have words with because of them making me uncomfortable with intense messaging and flirty comments and even my lack of response doesn't deter them.
Personally I've found in my own life I have had the most success with men I approached myself. One of my partners I initiated contact with on a dating site, though he asked for the first date. The majority of my male fab meets I've messaged first. It's still hard to shake the feeling though that as a woman I seem desperate for approaching men and that maybe they're just too polite to turn me down. I know deep down it's a load of rubbish but that's how much this shit is engrained in us all.
That whole culture needs to change for things to really get better but there's a lot of resistance from all sides. It's moving in the right direction though I feel. The existence of bumble for example is a good start.
I've been trying to think off an appropriate response.
I agree its definitely a culture thing.
Personally speaking, being totally honest,its really hard not to think..well I wouldnt do that.
That isnt an attempt to say not all men are like that but to try and understand..why someone would do that.
If I messeged a girl and she didnt respond..for sheer embarrassment, I wouldnt messege again.
Ditto hassling a girl who isnt interested.
Personally speaking, I don't understand why,anyone would do that..
That probally hasn't come out,so I apologise in advance.
I'm really not saying you must do . Like I said, most are socially aware enough to know where the line is. Sadly though not all do and some just don't care. Obviously the ones who don't care there is little hope for but when people talk about education, I believe they mean the ones I'm talking about who aren't bad people but repeatedly cross the line without there being malice to it. I have a old college friend who has even posted online apologies after being told his behaviour makes people uncomfortable. There's a lot of "unspoken rules" when it comes to dating and some really do find it hard to navigate being the persuer but often as a man, if you don't adopt that role you're residing yourself to a life of being single which is sad. "I think what I was trying to say..is to try and make sense of how people behave in such a way..and get to an understanding of it. | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. " I would generally agree with not tarnishing everyone... Think about this... who generally asks a person out... could that be construed as harrassment? This all needs to be balanced and we need to look at this like adults. People complain but dont say what they actually want done... I suggest people making realistic and achievable and fair recommendations. | |||
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"All is needed is more good Samaritans who would intervene as most don't get involved and walk by costs nothing to ask if things are ok to someone" You may be right but all too often seen the Good Samaritan become the victim. I have seen couples arguing in the street and then both turn on anyone who intervenes. I have seen ambulance staff attacked for doing their job. We have seen people prosecuted for defending themselves. We have so many young people either carrying knives or having ready access to them. They hide weapons discreetly around the town centres so if they are stopped they are not carrying a weapon. Good Samaritan is one thing but I understand why people don't | |||
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"When I worked the doors we made sure than the women were looked after, safely put in taxis, and checked on them if lads were trying to get them into cars when they were incapable. All door staff should be licenced now and the days of the brutal bouncer are hopefully in the past but we all met them. I am sure there are some in the cities who control the drug supply in their clubs but the last thing their bosses want is attracting police attention by beating their customers." I'll never forget one time I was 18 and new to nights out and saw a fight break out in the street. A doorman came running over and I thought "great, he's going to break it up" but he just joined in. I think he knew them. It kind of disturbed me though. I think most doormen are decent and there to do their job but I certainly know some guys from school who went into it because they got picked on in school and it was their chance to "have the power" or something. | |||
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"No it won’t work, not enough staff for a start. Police yourselves and your friends, tell your female & male friends what they are saying or doing isn’t right, have that conversation why. This is what might have a huge impact for a real change, re-educate ourselves and try to others. Starting at home. Do fathers talk to their sons about this topics. Do they ever tell them, "Do not harass women at the disco" or would they instead tell teach the "tricks" with women?
I'll be honest..my parents never sat me down and said..now when you go to a school disco..dont be a weirdo and go and harass some poor girl who isnt interested.
I just took it as red.
Maybe its just something in you...where you think its ok?
Maybe some of it but there's also a lot of toxic messages in our culture as a whole when it comes to dating. Women play hard to get, men have to pursue them to get the girl, etc, etc.
Women are socialised to be passive and "let men do the chasing". Of course the majority are socially aware enough to know where the line is between this and harassment but not everyone does. Hell I've had men I consider to be decent and friends who've I've had to have words with because of them making me uncomfortable with intense messaging and flirty comments and even my lack of response doesn't deter them.
Personally I've found in my own life I have had the most success with men I approached myself. One of my partners I initiated contact with on a dating site, though he asked for the first date. The majority of my male fab meets I've messaged first. It's still hard to shake the feeling though that as a woman I seem desperate for approaching men and that maybe they're just too polite to turn me down. I know deep down it's a load of rubbish but that's how much this shit is engrained in us all.
That whole culture needs to change for things to really get better but there's a lot of resistance from all sides. It's moving in the right direction though I feel. The existence of bumble for example is a good start.
I've been trying to think off an appropriate response.
I agree its definitely a culture thing.
Personally speaking, being totally honest,its really hard not to think..well I wouldnt do that.
That isnt an attempt to say not all men are like that but to try and understand..why someone would do that.
If I messeged a girl and she didnt respond..for sheer embarrassment, I wouldnt messege again.
Ditto hassling a girl who isnt interested.
Personally speaking, I don't understand why,anyone would do that..
That probally hasn't come out,so I apologise in advance.
I'm really not saying you must do . Like I said, most are socially aware enough to know where the line is. Sadly though not all do and some just don't care. Obviously the ones who don't care there is little hope for but when people talk about education, I believe they mean the ones I'm talking about who aren't bad people but repeatedly cross the line without there being malice to it. I have a old college friend who has even posted online apologies after being told his behaviour makes people uncomfortable. There's a lot of "unspoken rules" when it comes to dating and some really do find it hard to navigate being the persuer but often as a man, if you don't adopt that role you're residing yourself to a life of being single which is sad.
I think what I was trying to say..is to try and make sense of how people behave in such a way..and get to an understanding of it."Understanding is certainly useful. It's hard to deal with a problem we don't understand . | |||
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"I think its interesting..all the responses are about what other people can do..and not about what the actual problem can do." One barrier to safety is so delicate though. I take sensible precautions when I am out. I know that however big and strong you are that it is a huge disadvantage to be outnumbered. I take longer safer routes, I use taxis, I avoid certain pubs ( when they were open) I know how to behave in bars and clubs, I have escape routes planned in the event I need them and exit strategies.. The trouble is that sometimes when this advice is given to the more vulnerable it can be dispelled as victim shaming.. Until this society becomes a better place then learn to survive ... | |||
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"I think its interesting..all the responses are about what other people can do..and not about what the actual problem can do. One barrier to safety is so delicate though. I take sensible precautions when I am out. I know that however big and strong you are that it is a huge disadvantage to be outnumbered. I take longer safer routes, I use taxis, I avoid certain pubs ( when they were open) I know how to behave in bars and clubs, I have escape routes planned in the event I need them and exit strategies.. The trouble is that sometimes when this advice is given to the more vulnerable it can be dispelled as victim shaming.. Until this society becomes a better place then learn to survive ... " The problem is the advice to women is often to not go out alone, dont wear certain clothing, dont wear headphones and dont drink. The advice very much seems don't make yourself a target when actually just going about your everyday life makes women a target. | |||
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"When I worked the doors we made sure than the women were looked after, safely put in taxis, and checked on them if lads were trying to get them into cars when they were incapable. All door staff should be licenced now and the days of the brutal bouncer are hopefully in the past but we all met them. I am sure there are some in the cities who control the drug supply in their clubs but the last thing their bosses want is attracting police attention by beating their customers. I'll never forget one time I was 18 and new to nights out and saw a fight break out in the street. A doorman came running over and I thought "great, he's going to break it up" but he just joined in. I think he knew them. It kind of disturbed me though. I think most doormen are decent and there to do their job but I certainly know some guys from school who went into it because they got picked on in school and it was their chance to "have the power" or something. " Yeah. In December 2019 I was punched in the face by a bouncer while I was sipping a drink. Needless to say the shock caused me to bite down and the glass smashed and cut my lips open. He then turfed me out. To this day I still have no idea why it happened - I wasn’t even aware he was there until the punch happened. The police weren’t interested. Bar management wouldn’t investigate or give me the cctv. I know I’ve gone a bit off topic now lol - but it ties back into making places safer by getting proper trustworthy security in place. Leading by example. If you have a good door team then customers will be better protected and assholes won’t be let in, and people will feel comfortable reporting things. Which in turn will make it better for women. | |||
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"When I worked the doors we made sure than the women were looked after, safely put in taxis, and checked on them if lads were trying to get them into cars when they were incapable. All door staff should be licenced now and the days of the brutal bouncer are hopefully in the past but we all met them. I am sure there are some in the cities who control the drug supply in their clubs but the last thing their bosses want is attracting police attention by beating their customers. I'll never forget one time I was 18 and new to nights out and saw a fight break out in the street. A doorman came running over and I thought "great, he's going to break it up" but he just joined in. I think he knew them. It kind of disturbed me though. I think most doormen are decent and there to do their job but I certainly know some guys from school who went into it because they got picked on in school and it was their chance to "have the power" or something. Yeah. In December 2019 I was punched in the face by a bouncer while I was sipping a drink. Needless to say the shock caused me to bite down and the glass smashed and cut my lips open. He then turfed me out. To this day I still have no idea why it happened - I wasn’t even aware he was there until the punch happened. The police weren’t interested. Bar management wouldn’t investigate or give me the cctv. I know I’ve gone a bit off topic now lol - but it ties back into making places safer by getting proper trustworthy security in place. Leading by example. If you have a good door team then customers will be better protected and assholes won’t be let in, and people will feel comfortable reporting things. Which in turn will make it better for women." Sounds to me like discrimination... | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... " one bad apple has spread to all males? I know my 2 boys know how to treat women, my daughter is the eldest. . | |||
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"Would it be better if we just called them abusers rather than men? Maybe it would be less divisive and actually get men’s ear rather than instantly putting them on the defensive as we have seen in pretty much all of these threads over the last week. No because it's a problem that involves all men. It's our friends,family or ourselves that are acting in ways that make it a acceptable environment for this behaviour. Until the men who aren't assaulting/harassing women hold the men who do accountable then it's going to continue. Once we beat the main stigma then we can focus on who are the real abusers as there are too many catcallers, office creeps and oogling men that could become abusers." It is very difficult to find a way to protect ladies against such people! Without a behavioral change across society. At some point I seriously doubt everyone on this site and simular have not oogled someone, god forbid they may have even sent an unsolicited message not quite going to lead to such a thing as abuse. There is however a real issue in the lack of successful prosecution of the degenerate abusers. Until people are held to account this will persist. Education isn't restricted to children, but it is rarely successful via vilification. A problem across society for sure thank you for raising the points made. | |||
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"If areas where people gather are policed then criminals or those that wish to harm others will move on to stalking, breaking and entering and attacking people in their homes. You have to understand the nature of the beast. It will find new ways to hunt prey. Underground trains between station etc animals calculate before they strike and the police cannot be everywhere. One minute everyone wants police protection next they are cunts for enforcement of lockdown. Your lucky this isn't Russia or Serbia as many would have been beaten, locked up not given fines." The place I have been harassed the most is public transport. Usually busses or trains. I think it's because you're kind of trapped with them. Getting off could mean they follow you and bus stops and train stations feel even more dangerous than just staying where you are. | |||
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"I do wonder if all of this debate is making some women hyper vigilant tho. " And you don't think most of us have been for years? | |||
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"If areas where people gather are policed then criminals or those that wish to harm others will move on to stalking, breaking and entering and attacking people in their homes. You have to understand the nature of the beast. It will find new ways to hunt prey. Underground trains between station etc animals calculate before they strike and the police cannot be everywhere. One minute everyone wants police protection next they are cunts for enforcement of lockdown. Your lucky this isn't Russia or Serbia as many would have been beaten, locked up not given fines. The place I have been harassed the most is public transport. Usually busses or trains. I think it's because you're kind of trapped with them. Getting off could mean they follow you and bus stops and train stations feel even more dangerous than just staying where you are. " Definitely this. | |||
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"I do wonder if all of this debate is making some women hyper vigilant tho. And you don't think most of us have been for years?" Yep, we already are. | |||
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"The problem you will have is when a man or women innocently eyes up a person of the opposite sex. If that person wants to make an issue out of it he/she reports it to club/bar nominated office and that innocent look has just landed you in front of a magistrate, the press display your picture and now your a fucking beast. Your employer cancels your contract because you are seen to be dangerous. Friends you had disappear and then that person's body is found hanging over what was a innocent look. Be very careful what you wish for. East Germany had the stasi. You don't want that" Most men who actually force women to have sex against their will don't get convicted for it so is this really likely to happen? | |||
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"This has just been discussed on Radio4. Apparently its been successful overseas. The idea is that the undercover person does not reveal that though they tell uniformed officers. They don't tell a woman that they are undercover or approach her. So anyone saying they are undercover would be revealing themselves as untrustworthy. Women however need to know this so it's about getting that information out there. I'm not sure it would work but appears to work overseas. " Pretty much all clubs and many pubs have security staff. they could do this themselves. If they become aware of anyone being harrassed, the perpetrators are ejected/barred. This doesn't solve the street problem though, which has to be the police responsibility. More visible policing here is the only answer, like it or not. | |||
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"The problem you will have is when a man or women innocently eyes up a person of the opposite sex. If that person wants to make an issue out of it he/she reports it to club/bar nominated office and that innocent look has just landed you in front of a magistrate, the press display your picture and now your a fucking beast. Your employer cancels your contract because you are seen to be dangerous. Friends you had disappear and then that person's body is found hanging over what was a innocent look. Be very careful what you wish for. East Germany had the stasi. You don't want that" It would have to be more than a look. An action or course of actions, but there will always be evidential problems and thresholds. | |||
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"All is needed is more good Samaritans who would intervene as most don't get involved and walk by costs nothing to ask if things are ok to someone" It's not so long ago that the public were told NOT to intervene but to get the police. | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... one bad apple has spread to all males? I know my 2 boys know how to treat women, my daughter is the eldest. ." The saying goes........ One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch. It's the opposite of what you have taken it to mean. | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... one bad apple has spread to all males? I know my 2 boys know how to treat women, my daughter is the eldest. . The saying goes........ One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch. It's the opposite of what you have taken it to mean. " I think you are referring to bananas GC  | |||
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"Police man can be just as bad , so personally I wouldn’t feel any safer having them there " More police women maybe? | |||
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"So quite a few women would like under cover police in bars etc, wasn't it a police man responsible? One bad apple n all that...... one bad apple has spread to all males? I know my 2 boys know how to treat women, my daughter is the eldest. . The saying goes........ One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch. It's the opposite of what you have taken it to mean. I think you are referring to bananas GC "Tom, I Know my Granny's from my Fyfees. | |||
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"Police man can be just as bad , so personally I wouldn’t feel any safer having them there More police women maybe?" there quite a few police on here, so they probably go to the clubs anyway | |||
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"Time to stop these threads maybe.. they are becoming very decisive. As for undercover cops in bars etc.. think of any small town, the number of bars, the routes home etc etc.. the amount of police needed, it's a political message to try and placate... Freeing up more police... Not sure we have any left... Every policeman in a bar is one less to respond to live incidents... Now tell me this.. imagine one busy bar on a Friday night in a town centre.. how exactly does the officer spot the harassment.. attitudes need changing .. It won't work.. True but maybe safe areas in towns and city's, could work where you walk to if you feel you're being followed or wait for a taxi without fear. " This suggestion was ridiculed by some in another similar post because it implied women needed to act, respond differently or change to help and that apparently isn't what should be done as it's not their responsibility. It seemed to ignore that its something we all, male and female need to act upon to reduce, minimise and impose other preventstive measures. These aren't just crimes against women, they are crimes against fathers, mother's, brothers and sisters too. | |||
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"Time to stop these threads maybe.. they are becoming very decisive. As for undercover cops in bars etc.. think of any small town, the number of bars, the routes home etc etc.. the amount of police needed, it's a political message to try and placate... Freeing up more police... Not sure we have any left... Every policeman in a bar is one less to respond to live incidents... Now tell me this.. imagine one busy bar on a Friday night in a town centre.. how exactly does the officer spot the harassment.. attitudes need changing .. It won't work.. True but maybe safe areas in towns and city's, could work where you walk to if you feel you're being followed or wait for a taxi without fear. This suggestion was ridiculed by some in another similar post because it implied women needed to act, respond differently or change to help and that apparently isn't what should be done as it's not their responsibility. It seemed to ignore that its something we all, male and female need to act upon to reduce, minimise and impose other preventstive measures. These aren't just crimes against women, they are crimes against fathers, mother's, brothers and sisters too." I think the reason a lot of women get frustrated though is that whenever we talk about being harrassed or assaulted, the focus always seems to be on what women should do to prevent it happening when the reality is that most of us are already taking loads of precautions and it still happens. It's just not realistic for me to never get public transport alone or never walk through town alone. Sometimes I need to get to work or go to the bank/opticians/dentists. | |||
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