FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Is success hard work or luck?
Is success hard work or luck?
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"I watched coach gregs latest video about it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cNuMlYLF-yQ and it was interesting, as he gave few examples on it like circumstances determines it also, like someone can study as hard as someone else, but if they lived in a poor country they wouldnt have the same privelages to be what they wanted to be from their studies." It could be either or combination of both. My early minor success was though hard work then I got a lucky break through the swing scene. The rest was hard work and sacrifice  | |||
"Patience is key "This Shag, didn’t you know | |||
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"Both plus a ruthless Streak. You don't become very successful unless you are willing to be a bit of a cunt ." Do you think that is always true? I think in some cases but I know a handful of successful folks who are also the nicest of people. I'm also of the opinion that the definition of success is very personal and can be something remarkably humble to something outrageously grandiose.... Mine is getting a reply to an email this year. | |||
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"Certainly in business the harder you work the luckier you get." There's some great quotes on that message... For the golfers among us... Lee trevino. “There is no such thing as natural touch. Touch is something you create by hitting millions of golf balls.” And Gary Player, renowned for his hard work ethic and humble childhood... "the more I work and practise, the luckier I seem to get"... This from a guy who at age 81 was still doing 1000 crunches a day. | |||
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"There is a lot of factors that come into it, Nothing is ever achieved without hard work but I would say luck and being in the right time place also help " And who you know? There's a lot to be said for being in the right place at the right time. | |||
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"I agree to a certain extent your birthplace and social status can hinder some. Far more equal opportunities in today's societies though so it's much better and continues to improve. I worked my way up but a few lucky breaks along the way helped greatly. Sometimes it's not what you know its who you know." Yes, it does improve more today as it is more equal opportunities than every before, as well some kinds of luck involved too  | |||
"Some success is down to who your parents are, how wealthy they are and which University they sent you to. " Sorry wouldnt agree with this at all | |||
"Patience is key "Yes, it is that too | |||
"I watched coach gregs latest video about it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cNuMlYLF-yQ and it was interesting, as he gave few examples on it like circumstances determines it also, like someone can study as hard as someone else, but if they lived in a poor country they wouldnt have the same privelages to be what they wanted to be from their studies. It could be either or combination of both. My early minor success was though hard work then I got a lucky break through the swing scene. The rest was hard work and sacrifice "Yes, a mix of them both there too | |||
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 to me success would be one verification a month lol  | |||
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"I would say it is a mix of them both." I would not really disagree with you although it also how you measure success. I probably earn less in real terms than I did 20 years ago but I am more content with life, a success for me | |||
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" "thought you’d gone to Spain? | |||
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""A man is success if he gets up in the morning, goes to bed at night and, in between, he does what he wants to do." Bob Dylan" Thats a nice quote Once met a very nice bloke who cut watercress. Lived in a employee tied cottage, earned a low income had little in the way of sVings and only a state pension. Was past state rrtirement age and still getting up before dawn 6 days a week to cut the watercress by hand in all weather.
He explained he was able to eat 3 times a day. To have a game of dominoes Saturday afternoon at the pub,to read his Sunday paper over a pint. Best of all to watch the sun rise everyday never one the same all beautful in their own way. He didn't owe any one anything doesn't want anything else.
He was in his word fully content and therefore successful, I couldn't disagree. | |||
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""A man is success if he gets up in the morning, goes to bed at night and, in between, he does what he wants to do." Bob Dylan Thats a nice quote Once met a very nice bloke who cut watercress. Lived in a employee tied cottage, earned a low income had little in the way of sVings and only a state pension. Was past state rrtirement age and still getting up before dawn 6 days a week to cut the watercress by hand in all weather.
He explained he was able to eat 3 times a day. To have a game of dominoes Saturday afternoon at the pub,to read his Sunday paper over a pint. Best of all to watch the sun rise everyday never one the same all beautful in their own way. He didn't owe any one anything doesn't want anything else.
He was in his word fully content and therefore successful, I couldn't disagree. "I like the quote because it's a definition of success that is achievable and enduring. Your story illustrates that perfectly. | |||
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"Pure luck. Hard work means jack shit. " I respectfully disagree, Astbury. | |||
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"I watched coach gregs latest video about it https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cNuMlYLF-yQ and it was interesting, as he gave few examples on it like circumstances determines it also, like someone can study as hard as someone else, but if they lived in a poor country they wouldnt have the same privelages to be what they wanted to be from their studies." For me it’s been a mix of patience and persistence and risk taking . Luck is just another name for opportunity , you find it when you own your eyes. If you believe privilege is needed for success you will never be successful as you’re already defeated yourselves with a fixed mindset | |||
"A small number of people benefit from pure luck such as winning the lottery but for most opportunity is more important, and the harder you work and put yourself in positive situations, the more likely good opportunities are to arise for you to take." I wouldn’t class winning a lottery as success, personally I’d hate to be given a huge sum of money , much more exciting to create it. People I’ve know win or inherit large sums are often very unhappy within 2-3 years and often skint within 10 | |||
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"A small number of people benefit from pure luck such as winning the lottery but for most opportunity is more important, and the harder you work and put yourself in positive situations, the more likely good opportunities are to arise for you to take. I wouldn’t class winning a lottery as success, personally I’d hate to be given a huge sum of money , much more exciting to create it. People I’ve know win or inherit large sums are often very unhappy within 2-3 years and often skint within 10" That is true. Many people fantasie about being rich but can’t handle the reality while many people who become rich are actually more motivated by success and achievement rather than money alone. | |||
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" And then I've also seen some people coast through life on sheer luck and be wildly successful "It can look like that but usually isn’t. My daughter says I’m lucky to have my mentor, as well as advice he puts me in touch with investors and C levels. But for 20 + years I’ve nurtured that relationship because I realised how valuable and critical it was, there’s no luck there just effort and sacrifice | |||
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"My Grandad, although of a totally different generation, can tell me all I need to know about success. Now sadly no longer with us, there can be no person on Earth who I think could be more successful at life than him. He was born at the very start of the 1930s, to a manual dock labourer and a fairground worker. His mother died when he was 2, leaving a father on a miniscule and very variable wage with 3 children. World War Two then broke out six years after this. My Grandad lived in a type of poverty we now associate with the third world. No proper toilet, no running water, no heating other than a fire in one room, insufficient food and all the rest. To say he came from nothing was an understatement. He joined the army at the age of 14 in 1946 and was immediately posted to Italy (Trieste) as part of the Army of the Rhine. The smallest uniform was too large; he was underweight and under nourished, though the local Italian ladies remedied that with gifts of pasta. Lasagna remained his favourite food for the rest of his life. He served for 12 years in total, marrying my Grandmother in the mid 50s and continuing with the Army for a few years. Upon discharge from the Army, they moved back in with their parents and he took a job in a carpet factory doing night shifts. He saved enough to buy (cash, no mortgage) a run down barn/stable in the Lake District and he, along with family, worked to convert it into the house he remained living in until the last week of his life, a total of 64 years. His first job in the Lake District was selling brushes door to door. By all accounts, he could have sold snow to the Inuit and sand to the Bedouin. He was very good at selling brushes. He graduated to selling insurance door to door and became the man from the Pru. He worked his way through the ranks, taking professional exams throughout his 30s and 40s. He had left school without having taken his School Certificate, so didn't have any official qualifications prior to this. He eventually became the principal insurance and investments manager for a local firm. Outside of his day to day profession, he was a musician. He played every woodwind instrument plus the piano and could turn his hand to brass if necessary. He never pocketed a penny from music, but he founded a band in the 1960s which is still going today, he played in the first ever concert of a semi professional orchestra in the North of England, he taught music at home at the weekend and in local schools, he examined for woodwind instruments, he heard auditions as an expert for two famous Northern music schools, he sat on the panel for a music prize for young people, he gave music talks to luncheon clubs/WI/MU etc up until his mid-80s, he played in the orchestra pit for local AmDram societies and continued to give concerts well into his 80s. Any money he received from music, he donated to charity. Every single penny. His estate is worth a lot of money (not saying how much), yet it was all saved from hard work and prudent investment. He never earned a huge amount, but he was careful and sensible. Throughout my life, he has given money to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds to my mother to try and help her yet still, he leaves so much financially. Do you know what makes me say my Grandad was successful? It wasn't his financial standings at death. He couldn't take it with him. It's the fact that even after two weeks of phoning round and emailing, I was still finding more people who knew him, worked with him, played music with him, raised charity funds with him and every single person we've contacted has said they feel his loss as much as we, his family do. If we could have held a proper funeral, the people wanting to attend wouldn't fit in the church. We have plans for an overspill in the parish hall and possibly also a marquee in the vicarage garden when we can hold a proper memorial, such are the numbers. The letters, cards, emails and phone conversations, recounting how he helped and positively influenced the lives of so many people. The sheer sums of money he raised for charity. The fact that I only need to use the shortened form of his first name and everyone knows who I'm referring to. That's success. I don't believe in God, but both my Grandparents were committed Christians, they met at a church Christmas coffee morning. He was the epitome of what a Christian would claim to be and if God did exist, my Grandad would have sashayed into heaven, instrument in hand, selling charity raffle tickets and recruiting people to volunteer and do good things. Success is achieved through hard work. I base my own philosophy of life on my Grandad's example and am so proud that my son is doing the same. And he got the musical genes "The very best success you could of sort for and so much more than financial dounds a true giant amoungst human kind. | |||
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"Personally think "luck" is fictional " It is. | |||
"Both plus a ruthless Streak. You don't become very successful unless you are willing to be a bit of a cunt . Do you think that is always true? I think in some cases but I know a handful of successful folks who are also the nicest of people. I'm also of the opinion that the definition of success is very personal and can be something remarkably humble to something outrageously grandiose.... Mine is getting a reply to an email this year. " I really do appreciate that success means different things to different people. I am sure the Dali Lama doesn't count his success in the same way as sayyyyyyyy Kim Kardashian. It's possible to feel successful on a small scale. e.g. I rustled up a tast dinner from almost zilch ...... success ! | |||
"Personally think "luck" is fictional It is. " What would you call it when a golf ball bounces sideways on a fairway? When your competitors bounces straight forward... Or in seve ballesteros case... Hit it straight into the trees and it bounces out centre fairway? Or when a rugby ball bounces straight into the arms of a winger and not into touch? | |||
"Personally think "luck" is fictional It is. What would you call it when a golf ball bounces sideways on a fairway? When your competitors bounces straight forward... Or in seve ballesteros case... Hit it straight into the trees and it bounces out centre fairway? Or when a rugby ball bounces straight into the arms of a winger and not into touch? " Science | |||
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"Up till my teens life was shit, through grit and determination I managed to get to the UK and then through hard work and study I made something of myself I still don’t stop today and am studying for my next move. My Uk family have a lot of money but none of that helped me get where I am professionally I had to do that on my own. " That sounds so familiar to me. You are not coming round for sex and lunch at 12 are you ? | |||
"Personally think "luck" is fictional It is. What would you call it when a golf ball bounces sideways on a fairway? When your competitors bounces straight forward... Or in seve ballesteros case... Hit it straight into the trees and it bounces out centre fairway? Or when a rugby ball bounces straight into the arms of a winger and not into touch? Science" Best add ability to manipulate science to your list of items then! | |||
"Up till my teens life was shit, through grit and determination I managed to get to the UK and then through hard work and study I made something of myself I still don’t stop today and am studying for my next move. My Uk family have a lot of money but none of that helped me get where I am professionally I had to do that on my own. That sounds so familiar to me. You are not coming round for sex and lunch at 12 are you ? " Yes what’s for lunch? | |||
"Personally think "luck" is fictional It is. What would you call it when a golf ball bounces sideways on a fairway? When your competitors bounces straight forward... Or in seve ballesteros case... Hit it straight into the trees and it bounces out centre fairway? Or when a rugby ball bounces straight into the arms of a winger and not into touch? Science Best add ability to manipulate science to your list of items then! " Those were not incidences of manipulation | |||
"Up till my teens life was shit, through grit and determination I managed to get to the UK and then through hard work and study I made something of myself I still don’t stop today and am studying for my next move. My Uk family have a lot of money but none of that helped me get where I am professionally I had to do that on my own. That sounds so familiar to me. You are not coming round for sex and lunch at 12 are you ? Yes what’s for lunch? " There's always a choice. It'd be really funny if it was you. | |||
"Personally think "luck" is fictional It is. What would you call it when a golf ball bounces sideways on a fairway? When your competitors bounces straight forward... Or in seve ballesteros case... Hit it straight into the trees and it bounces out centre fairway? Or when a rugby ball bounces straight into the arms of a winger and not into touch? " Are we lucky because we ate today? Are we lucky our children don't have cancer? Point is there are to many variables, were all lucky if we put things into perspective. Unlucky because we don't have more money than someone who won the lottery? Lucky in millions of other ways. Impossible for it to work. | |||
"Personally think "luck" is fictional It is. What would you call it when a golf ball bounces sideways on a fairway? When your competitors bounces straight forward... Or in seve ballesteros case... Hit it straight into the trees and it bounces out centre fairway? Or when a rugby ball bounces straight into the arms of a winger and not into touch? Science Best add ability to manipulate science to your list of items then! Those were not incidences of manipulation" I understand so what determines that seves ball hits the tree and pops on the fairway and Paul azingers hits the same tree and disappears forever? I'm only using golf as an example there are heaps of others... What has seve received that zinger didn't? | |||
"Both plus a ruthless Streak. You don't become very successful unless you are willing to be a bit of a cunt ." Totally disagree. Mr | |||
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"It depends. On scenarios that depend entirely on you, hard work of course. As an example; Shag, that amazing physique is 100% due to effort and hard work. No luck involved. Most things in life do depend on a multitude of factors though, many of which are beyond our control and here luck can play a role as much as hard work. Examples such as athletes, actors and even politicians come to mind. There are many brilliant and astounding examples of these that never made it big; not because they weren't talented, but perhaps they were not in the right place at the right time to be noticed by those who yeild influence to set them on a path to greatness." Weild I meant  | |||
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"Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell is an interesting read on the topic." Hmmm Gladwell, him who took the 10,000 hours theory, misunderstood or misrepresented it & made money off it. Right place right time for him.. | |||
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"I think it is a mix of both, hard work and motivation coupled with luck On paper my boy shouldn't of succeeded, growing up in a rural area classed as 'in need' went to local state school and college. Decided to go to a University 250 mile away because it is the best in Europe for his discipline. He worked hard and got noticed. On leaving Uni he got the first job he applied for in Edinburgh. he had already been on their radar because of stuff he did at University....He now works for one of the most prestigious names in his field, Part luck but he worked his arse off to get there. Nothing comes to you if you don't have determination, motivation to make it happen. " ...then you are a success too, you gave him that mindset. Well done both of you. | |||
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"I think it is a mix of both, hard work and motivation coupled with luck On paper my boy shouldn't of succeeded, growing up in a rural area classed as 'in need' went to local state school and college. Decided to go to a University 250 mile away because it is the best in Europe for his discipline. He worked hard and got noticed. On leaving Uni he got the first job he applied for in Edinburgh. he had already been on their radar because of stuff he did at University....He now works for one of the most prestigious names in his field, Part luck but he worked his arse off to get there. Nothing comes to you if you don't have determination, motivation to make it happen. ...then you are a success too, you gave him that mindset. Well done both of you. " I have instilled a work ethic and he has watched me succeed in my career from working hard. But tbh I never pushed him, I was always telling him to slow it down tbh, but he has his own drive and determination | |||
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"Luck is necessary. A lot of luck. Without luck it isn't possible. Work comes into it, for sure, but those without the luck don't even get a foothold." I'd respectfully disagree on that, Swing  | |||
"To answer the OP, I think hardworking is a pretty important ingredient but it only pays off if you have the luck to be born in the right situation. All the hard work in the world isn't gong to help much if you're born in a South American slum for example. To get out of those situations requires luck - someone to notice you for what you are, not what you represent. The world is full of people living in grinding poverty yet who work ridiculously hard. It seems highly unlikely that hard work will give you more success in the UK say than the Sudan without recognising that the social, geographic and political arena an individual is born into play a significant part. This country itself has millions of workers slaving away on ridiculous wages, often working several jobs, getting up in the early hours and not stopping till late in the evening yet very few would call them successful. On top of that simple things like looks, gender, height all make a difference. You also require a certain personality type, the confidence to take risks and responsibility. I'm not talking just about mortgaging your house to fund a start up but the little everyday risks. Being prepared to make a decision without asking someone else, getting those decisions mostly right but owning your mistakes when you don't. There are lots of people who don't do this and there will always be a natural ceiling for them as they need people above them to feel secure. Some organisations have enough layers that such people can work their way to a reasonable position by being good at their job and being a safe pair of hands but I don't believe they can ever be truly successful in an entrepreneurial way. Sadly, we are all victims of the self attribution bias, we always give ourselves more credit for our success and less responsibility for our failures. There are many interesting experiments around this. People playing games that are purely based on luck will say it is their ability that has helped them win. They take credit for winning games where they succeed because their opponents are given an unknown handicap- and continue to insist it was at least partly due to their skills even when they are told about the handicap. We see the same in society today where many insist that they don't have privilege, the playing field always looks more level when you're looking down on it from a great height. Mr" You are right about opportunities and poverty in other countries but that doesn’t apply here in the UK we have free education to at least masters level and free health and most people can access them both without issues Risk and responsibility is also a good point. Making decisions is what makes you good at it, it’s how you develop wisdom. Unsuccessful people avoid risks and making tough decisions so never get wise. The last point I call the mirror and the window. When things go bad unsuccessful people look out the window for answers, successful people look at themselves in the mirror. | |||
"Luck is necessary. A lot of luck. Without luck it isn't possible. Work comes into it, for sure, but those without the luck don't even get a foothold. I'd respectfully disagree on that, Swing "Fair. To each their own. | |||
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"If you think you need “luck “‘ you are really just refusing to take responsibility. Do you think crossing your fingers or touching wood when you make an investment helps? That’s what luck is, it’s not science or effort or sacrifice but four leaf clovers and avoiding number 13 If you believe in that stuff it explains maybe why your are not successful " So the opposite would be unlucky/misfortune. All of the businesses going under through covid for example. Contingency plans may have been in place, but may not have allowed for this length of time. | |||
"If you think you need “luck “‘ you are really just refusing to take responsibility. Do you think crossing your fingers or touching wood when you make an investment helps? That’s what luck is, it’s not science or effort or sacrifice but four leaf clovers and avoiding number 13 If you believe in that stuff it explains maybe why your are not successful " Circumstances entirely outside your control that have been set before you were born can throw off everyone or almost everyone. My family. One generation: working class kids went to university, because it was within their grasp. Next generation: the remaining working class families, none of their kids did. University was not within their grasp. (It might have been possible but it was significantly more difficult than it would have been for their parents) For example | |||
"If you think you need “luck “‘ you are really just refusing to take responsibility. Do you think crossing your fingers or touching wood when you make an investment helps? That’s what luck is, it’s not science or effort or sacrifice but four leaf clovers and avoiding number 13 If you believe in that stuff it explains maybe why your are not successful So the opposite would be unlucky/misfortune. All of the businesses going under through covid for example. Contingency plans may have been in place, but may not have allowed for this length of time. " Yes. Luck and responsibility are not mutually exclusive. | |||
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"My Grandad, although of a totally different generation, can tell me all I need to know about success. Now sadly no longer with us, there can be no person on Earth who I think could be more successful at life than him. He was born at the very start of the 1930s, to a manual dock labourer and a fairground worker. His mother died when he was 2, leaving a father on a miniscule and very variable wage with 3 children. World War Two then broke out six years after this. My Grandad lived in a type of poverty we now associate with the third world. No proper toilet, no running water, no heating other than a fire in one room, insufficient food and all the rest. To say he came from nothing was an understatement. He joined the army at the age of 14 in 1946 and was immediately posted to Italy (Trieste) as part of the Army of the Rhine. The smallest uniform was too large; he was underweight and under nourished, though the local Italian ladies remedied that with gifts of pasta. Lasagna remained his favourite food for the rest of his life. He served for 12 years in total, marrying my Grandmother in the mid 50s and continuing with the Army for a few years. Upon discharge from the Army, they moved back in with their parents and he took a job in a carpet factory doing night shifts. He saved enough to buy (cash, no mortgage) a run down barn/stable in the Lake District and he, along with family, worked to convert it into the house he remained living in until the last week of his life, a total of 64 years. His first job in the Lake District was selling brushes door to door. By all accounts, he could have sold snow to the Inuit and sand to the Bedouin. He was very good at selling brushes. He graduated to selling insurance door to door and became the man from the Pru. He worked his way through the ranks, taking professional exams throughout his 30s and 40s. He had left school without having taken his School Certificate, so didn't have any official qualifications prior to this. He eventually became the principal insurance and investments manager for a local firm. Outside of his day to day profession, he was a musician. He played every woodwind instrument plus the piano and could turn his hand to brass if necessary. He never pocketed a penny from music, but he founded a band in the 1960s which is still going today, he played in the first ever concert of a semi professional orchestra in the North of England, he taught music at home at the weekend and in local schools, he examined for woodwind instruments, he heard auditions as an expert for two famous Northern music schools, he sat on the panel for a music prize for young people, he gave music talks to luncheon clubs/WI/MU etc up until his mid-80s, he played in the orchestra pit for local AmDram societies and continued to give concerts well into his 80s. Any money he received from music, he donated to charity. Every single penny. His estate is worth a lot of money (not saying how much), yet it was all saved from hard work and prudent investment. He never earned a huge amount, but he was careful and sensible. Throughout my life, he has given money to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds to my mother to try and help her yet still, he leaves so much financially. Do you know what makes me say my Grandad was successful? It wasn't his financial standings at death. He couldn't take it with him. It's the fact that even after two weeks of phoning round and emailing, I was still finding more people who knew him, worked with him, played music with him, raised charity funds with him and every single person we've contacted has said they feel his loss as much as we, his family do. If we could have held a proper funeral, the people wanting to attend wouldn't fit in the church. We have plans for an overspill in the parish hall and possibly also a marquee in the vicarage garden when we can hold a proper memorial, such are the numbers. The letters, cards, emails and phone conversations, recounting how he helped and positively influenced the lives of so many people. The sheer sums of money he raised for charity. The fact that I only need to use the shortened form of his first name and everyone knows who I'm referring to. That's success. I don't believe in God, but both my Grandparents were committed Christians, they met at a church Christmas coffee morning. He was the epitome of what a Christian would claim to be and if God did exist, my Grandad would have sashayed into heaven, instrument in hand, selling charity raffle tickets and recruiting people to volunteer and do good things. Success is achieved through hard work. I base my own philosophy of life on my Grandad's example and am so proud that my son is doing the same. And he got the musical genes " | |||
"If you think you need “luck “‘ you are really just refusing to take responsibility. Do you think crossing your fingers or touching wood when you make an investment helps? That’s what luck is, it’s not science or effort or sacrifice but four leaf clovers and avoiding number 13 If you believe in that stuff it explains maybe why your are not successful " Isn't this superstition rather than luck? | |||
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"If you think you need “luck “‘ you are really just refusing to take responsibility. Do you think crossing your fingers or touching wood when you make an investment helps? That’s what luck is, it’s not science or effort or sacrifice but four leaf clovers and avoiding number 13 If you believe in that stuff it explains maybe why your are not successful Circumstances entirely outside your control that have been set before you were born can throw off everyone or almost everyone. My family. One generation: working class kids went to university, because it was within their grasp. Next generation: the remaining working class families, none of their kids did. University was not within their grasp. (It might have been possible but it was significantly more difficult than it would have been for their parents) For example" We are all to some extent prisoners of our time and circumstance. To give another example, would Maradona have have risen from slums of Buenos Aires to be the most revered person in Argentina without the existence of professional football and the mass media that catapulted him to fame? | |||
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"If you think you need “luck “‘ you are really just refusing to take responsibility. Do you think crossing your fingers or touching wood when you make an investment helps? That’s what luck is, it’s not science or effort or sacrifice but four leaf clovers and avoiding number 13 If you believe in that stuff it explains maybe why your are not successful Circumstances entirely outside your control that have been set before you were born can throw off everyone or almost everyone. My family. One generation: working class kids went to university, because it was within their grasp. Next generation: the remaining working class families, none of their kids did. University was not within their grasp. (It might have been possible but it was significantly more difficult than it would have been for their parents) For example We are all to some extent prisoners of our time and circumstance. To give another example, would Maradona have have risen from slums of Buenos Aires to be the most revered person in Argentina without the existence of professional football and the mass media that catapulted him to fame?" Yes. And that's the luck I meant. Without the circumstances you're born into, or shit thrust onto you through no fault of your own, your life might be incredibly different. From that starting point, whatever it is, it's mostly work and partly luck. But without that luck... nope. | |||
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