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Is feminism still necessary today?
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"I think the issue is that there is no single definition of feminism. Even two people who describe themselves as feminist will often disagree on what they believe. Personally? There is still awful inequality in many countries that should be fought against and even in so called progressive societies there is still a lot of variation in how men and women are treated (mostly at the expense of women). We need to learn to understand our own biases and understand each other. Just because one woman wants to give up her career to be a full time mother it doesn't mean she should be judged as less, equally, if someone wants to study the long term effect on life choices and behaviour of the way we speak to and about different sex children it doesn't mean they're a rabid man hater either. We need to acknowledge and understand issue like why when a man is angry we automatically assume the cause is something external to him but an angry woman is a nearly always assessed in terms of her own emotions etc. Personally I'd like to see a greater movement away from the effort to create a false dichotomy that somehow there are two types of people, men and women, and us all get better at treating people as simply people. Mr" You and me have similar opinions Mr  | |||
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"Feminism should be the corner stone of not only this century but the ones in the future too! Feminism, when done properly, can empower men and women alike. It's a movement that reflects so much on the world that the LGBTQ community as well as other minorities can bounce of off (i mean ideas wise) and take a stand for equality. I hope my daughters grow up to know and appreciate all of the struggles many before them have suffered and still suffer today! "I'm sure they will with such a positive role model | |||
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"I think the issue is that there is no single definition of feminism. Even two people who describe themselves as feminist will often disagree on what they believe. Personally? There is still awful inequality in many countries that should be fought against and even in so called progressive societies there is still a lot of variation in how men and women are treated (mostly at the expense of women). We need to learn to understand our own biases and understand each other. Just because one woman wants to give up her career to be a full time mother it doesn't mean she should be judged as less, equally, if someone wants to study the long term effect on life choices and behaviour of the way we speak to and about different sex children it doesn't mean they're a rabid man hater either. We need to acknowledge and understand issue like why when a man is angry we automatically assume the cause is something external to him but an angry woman is a nearly always assessed in terms of her own emotions etc. Personally I'd like to see a greater movement away from the effort to create a false dichotomy that somehow there are two types of people, men and women, and us all get better at treating people as simply people. Mr" Bravo to all of that and particularly the last paragraph. Listened to an interesting interview the other day in which feminism was discussed and it was mentioned that it's changed a lot over the years and moved away from striving for equality as such and has splintered into diverse groups each with their own definition of what it means to them, some of them quite radicalised too to the extent that there's an element of "we're more feminist than you" between them, and a lot of the original ideals have been lost in the mix. I'm all for equality and egalitarianism amongst ALL rather than one specific group - yes there is a long way to go, and yes it's possibly an idealistic view but rather than looking at it from the standpoint of one gender, race, whatever I prefer to look at people as people as you say | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men" Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? " I'm not sure how feminism does that | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? I'm not sure how feminism does that " In my workplace it has, so it looked at what hindered women's progress in promotion to higher levels. It was found that child care was a massive stumbling block, so they've made it easier and made it clear that both genders are able to apply for changes in working hours. We also have a shared maternity/paternity leave. All changes that have come from how to aid women it's just there benefits for males too | |||
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"Is feminism required in the 21st century? Absolutely, we’ve come a long way but aren’t quite there yet. I can’t help but feel though that until we address the pressures that boys are put under to fit in with societies gender expectations of what being a man means we are stuck in a bit of a holding pattern. Enable boys to be in touch with their emotions, let them know it’s ok to ask for help, let them know it’s ok to not do everything their mates do. Then hopefully we will have a generation of men who don’t wolf whistle, sexually harass or sexually assault women. A generation of men who can handle having a female boss without batting an eyelid. A generation of men to whom objectifying women is an alien concept. (Not saying that all men do this by the way )"I so agree with you I think we need to change how we perceive the genders. I hate the phrases such as "man up" and "grow some balls". Think we need to see people as individuals who have different strengths and traits that aren't gender dependent | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? I'm not sure how feminism does that In my workplace it has, so it looked at what hindered women's progress in promotion to higher levels. It was found that child care was a massive stumbling block, so they've made it easier and made it clear that both genders are able to apply for changes in working hours. We also have a shared maternity/paternity leave. All changes that have come from how to aid women it's just there benefits for males too " It's good that more employers are taking a progressive approach to this....but I'll be honest and say I'm actually a wee bit old fashioned in this regard. I think it's a bit sad we now all live in a 2 salary society where there is an expectation that a woman will want to (in a lot of cases have to) return to work after having kids. If she genuinely wants to then the opportunity to do so should be there....but we downplay the importance of a mother's role I think. And it's sometimes seen as a backwards step if she wants to assume the traditional role of mother and "home maker". | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? I'm not sure how feminism does that In my workplace it has, so it looked at what hindered women's progress in promotion to higher levels. It was found that child care was a massive stumbling block, so they've made it easier and made it clear that both genders are able to apply for changes in working hours. We also have a shared maternity/paternity leave. All changes that have come from how to aid women it's just there benefits for males too It's good that more employers are taking a progressive approach to this....but I'll be honest and say I'm actually a wee bit old fashioned in this regard. I think it's a bit sad we now all live in a 2 salary society where there is an expectation that a woman will want to (in a lot of cases have to) return to work after having kids. If she genuinely wants to then the opportunity to do so should be there....but we downplay the importance of a mother's role I think. And it's sometimes seen as a backwards step if she wants to assume the traditional role of mother and "home maker". " I think being a parent is the most important job in the world. And I totally agree with you they having to be a 2 income family to pay the bills is mental. But I think that men can be homemakers as much as women. I was lucky I was able to take off over a year with my boys and then only worked part-time after my eldest my ex then worked part time after our youngest was born. | |||
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"I so agree with you I think we need to change how we perceive the genders. I hate the phrases such as "man up" and "grow some balls". Think we need to see people as individuals who have different strengths and traits that aren't gender dependent " I found this ted talk on the collective socialisation of men really interesting https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=td1PbsV6B80 | |||
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"In terms of equality always. In terms of taking down men to prove it, no " | |||
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"I so agree with you I think we need to change how we perceive the genders. I hate the phrases such as "man up" and "grow some balls". Think we need to see people as individuals who have different strengths and traits that aren't gender dependent I found this ted talk on the collective socialisation of men really interesting https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=td1PbsV6B80" Thank you I'll check it out | |||
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"I think the issue is that there is no single definition of feminism. Even two people who describe themselves as feminist will often disagree on what they believe. Personally? There is still awful inequality in many countries that should be fought against and even in so called progressive societies there is still a lot of variation in how men and women are treated (mostly at the expense of women). We need to learn to understand our own biases and understand each other. Just because one woman wants to give up her career to be a full time mother it doesn't mean she should be judged as less, equally, if someone wants to study the long term effect on life choices and behaviour of the way we speak to and about different sex children it doesn't mean they're a rabid man hater either. We need to acknowledge and understand issue like why when a man is angry we automatically assume the cause is something external to him but an angry woman is a nearly always assessed in terms of her own emotions etc. Personally I'd like to see a greater movement away from the effort to create a false dichotomy that somehow there are two types of people, men and women, and us all get better at treating people as simply people. Mr Bravo to all of that and particularly the last paragraph. Listened to an interesting interview the other day in which feminism was discussed and it was mentioned that it's changed a lot over the years and moved away from striving for equality as such and has splintered into diverse groups each with their own definition of what it means to them, some of them quite radicalised too to the extent that there's an element of "we're more feminist than you" between them, and a lot of the original ideals have been lost in the mix. I'm all for equality and egalitarianism amongst ALL rather than one specific group - yes there is a long way to go, and yes it's possibly an idealistic view but rather than looking at it from the standpoint of one gender, race, whatever I prefer to look at people as people as you say " Totally agree with the above and well said | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? I'm not sure how feminism does that In my workplace it has, so it looked at what hindered women's progress in promotion to higher levels. It was found that child care was a massive stumbling block, so they've made it easier and made it clear that both genders are able to apply for changes in working hours. We also have a shared maternity/paternity leave. All changes that have come from how to aid women it's just there benefits for males too " I can see how these positive changes are a by product of feminism. I struggle accepting that feminism as a cause, should have the empowerment of men as part of it's agenda | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication." | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication." Some women being world leaders/CEOs does not mean that the patriarchy is not deeply rooted in our society. Yes, a higher proportion of women graduate. This does not translate into a higher proportion of women in positions of power, or indeed mean that the gender pay gap doesn't exist. Why is that? What derails the transition from high flying youngster to successful career? I’m going to draw a rather crude comparison, if you'll forgive me,with the BLM movement. The black people of my acquaintance are comfortably off and part of the local community. However, I wouldn't expect that because the people I know have a comfortable existence that this is the case for all black people. I can't dismiss the feelings and experiences of an entire swathe of society because some of them are doing well. Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication." Not strictly true with the numbers in university if you look at stem subjects, it's only in the last couple of years they've managed to get 50/50 at undergraduate level. Post graduate the figure dramatically drops and then if you look at post doctoral positions in uni it's even more depressing. Though strides have been made especially in the last 5 years. I don't personally find, shared maternity/paternity leave, having a room for women to express milk if they are breastfeeding or making our university prospectus representative of all genders and ethnicities particularly radical. Sorry equality and diversity within stem in the UK is a massive part of my job. But I do agree with you on equality of rights and opportunities. And that the best person for the job should be employed regardless of any of their characteristics | |||
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"Haha I had thia conversation with my dad once and just listed off the top of my head to him some of my experiences as a woman on the street, on public transport, in the workplace, etc and I think I broke him . "
My view is that we should all be equal, I don’t think that is too extreme to ask.
We can’t get there until women can feel safe to walk the same way home in the dark as she would in the daylight. To wear what she wants to without fear that she is ‘asking for it’ and to be able to socialise with friends in a bar without being hassled. | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x" Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down | |||
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"So to answer the OP - yes. X"  | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. Not strictly true with the numbers in university if you look at stem subjects, it's only in the last couple of years they've managed to get 50/50 at undergraduate level. Post graduate the figure dramatically drops and then if you look at post doctoral positions in uni it's even more depressing. Though strides have been made especially in the last 5 years. I don't personally find, shared maternity/paternity leave, having a room for women to express milk if they are breastfeeding or making our university prospectus representative of all genders and ethnicities particularly radical. Sorry equality and diversity within stem in the UK is a massive part of my job. But I do agree with you on equality of rights and opportunities. And that the best person for the job should be employed regardless of any of their characteristics "Regarding stem subjects it's been well established that men have more of a natural inclination and interest for these themes where women naturally gravitate towards humanities / social studies / (health)care. This is not caused by any hard barriers society throws up to impede women but rather the natural tendencies that the sexes have and what they gravitate to. Again, allow equal opportunities for all who want to pursue what they find best for them, but don't blame "patriarchy" for an uneven equality of outcome. | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. Not strictly true with the numbers in university if you look at stem subjects, it's only in the last couple of years they've managed to get 50/50 at undergraduate level. Post graduate the figure dramatically drops and then if you look at post doctoral positions in uni it's even more depressing. Though strides have been made especially in the last 5 years. I don't personally find, shared maternity/paternity leave, having a room for women to express milk if they are breastfeeding or making our university prospectus representative of all genders and ethnicities particularly radical. Sorry equality and diversity within stem in the UK is a massive part of my job. But I do agree with you on equality of rights and opportunities. And that the best person for the job should be employed regardless of any of their characteristics
Regarding stem subjects it's been well established that men have more of a natural inclination and interest for these themes where women naturally gravitate towards humanities / social studies / (health)care.
This is not caused by any hard barriers society throws up to impede women but rather the natural tendencies that the sexes have and what they gravitate to. Again, allow equal opportunities for all who want to pursue what they find best for them, but don't blame "patriarchy" for an uneven equality of outcome."So we pay less in the careers women tend to choose then? | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. Not strictly true with the numbers in university if you look at stem subjects, it's only in the last couple of years they've managed to get 50/50 at undergraduate level. Post graduate the figure dramatically drops and then if you look at post doctoral positions in uni it's even more depressing. Though strides have been made especially in the last 5 years. I don't personally find, shared maternity/paternity leave, having a room for women to express milk if they are breastfeeding or making our university prospectus representative of all genders and ethnicities particularly radical. Sorry equality and diversity within stem in the UK is a massive part of my job. But I do agree with you on equality of rights and opportunities. And that the best person for the job should be employed regardless of any of their characteristics
Regarding stem subjects it's been well established that men have more of a natural inclination and interest for these themes where women naturally gravitate towards humanities / social studies / (health)care.
This is not caused by any hard barriers society throws up to impede women but rather the natural tendencies that the sexes have and what they gravitate to. Again, allow equal opportunities for all who want to pursue what they find best for them, but don't blame "patriarchy" for an uneven equality of outcome.
So we pay less in the careers women tend to choose then? "I don't know. Do we? | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. Not strictly true with the numbers in university if you look at stem subjects, it's only in the last couple of years they've managed to get 50/50 at undergraduate level. Post graduate the figure dramatically drops and then if you look at post doctoral positions in uni it's even more depressing. Though strides have been made especially in the last 5 years. I don't personally find, shared maternity/paternity leave, having a room for women to express milk if they are breastfeeding or making our university prospectus representative of all genders and ethnicities particularly radical. Sorry equality and diversity within stem in the UK is a massive part of my job. But I do agree with you on equality of rights and opportunities. And that the best person for the job should be employed regardless of any of their characteristics
Regarding stem subjects it's been well established that men have more of a natural inclination and interest for these themes where women naturally gravitate towards humanities / social studies / (health)care.
This is not caused by any hard barriers society throws up to impede women but rather the natural tendencies that the sexes have and what they gravitate to. Again, allow equal opportunities for all who want to pursue what they find best for them, but don't blame "patriarchy" for an uneven equality of outcome.
So we pay less in the careers women tend to choose then?
I don't know. Do we?"Yes | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? I'm not sure how feminism does that In my workplace it has, so it looked at what hindered women's progress in promotion to higher levels. It was found that child care was a massive stumbling block, so they've made it easier and made it clear that both genders are able to apply for changes in working hours. We also have a shared maternity/paternity leave. All changes that have come from how to aid women it's just there benefits for males too I can see how these positive changes are a by product of feminism. I struggle accepting that feminism as a cause, should have the empowerment of men as part of it's agenda " Feminism does empower men. Men just don't like to admit it. For example, some men by nature or by preference are not, what you might call, providers. In this case, a man should be as much a feminist as any women, because he wants to oppose the life style that is imposed on him, 'men work, women breed' Another example, let's say a man wants to have intimate relationships with women, but because of how society views women and initiation of intimate relationships, the man has to always initiate contact, make a move etc etc Would it not empower men, if we stopped viewing women who 'make a move' as sluts and saw them for people, just like us, going for what they want. Would it not just be better for everyone? The word feminism is used by many for different causes, someone already said sometimes two people claiming to be feminist may have differing views on the subject. This is a matter of perspective, to me, when i hear feminism, i hear freedom, independence and most of equality. | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. Not strictly true with the numbers in university if you look at stem subjects, it's only in the last couple of years they've managed to get 50/50 at undergraduate level. Post graduate the figure dramatically drops and then if you look at post doctoral positions in uni it's even more depressing. Though strides have been made especially in the last 5 years. I don't personally find, shared maternity/paternity leave, having a room for women to express milk if they are breastfeeding or making our university prospectus representative of all genders and ethnicities particularly radical. Sorry equality and diversity within stem in the UK is a massive part of my job. But I do agree with you on equality of rights and opportunities. And that the best person for the job should be employed regardless of any of their characteristics
Regarding stem subjects it's been well established that men have more of a natural inclination and interest for these themes where women naturally gravitate towards humanities / social studies / (health)care.
This is not caused by any hard barriers society throws up to impede women but rather the natural tendencies that the sexes have and what they gravitate to. Again, allow equal opportunities for all who want to pursue what they find best for them, but don't blame "patriarchy" for an uneven equality of outcome."Again untrue as I've mentioned intake at undergraduate level is 50/50 suggesting females are are inclined and as interested as males. It's only when we enter post-grad levels to female levels drop off. And it's not because they aren't capable of it, there's a myriad of reasons which I can go in depth at a UK level, but it'll be an essay. Many of the reasons aren't due to men, but because the system is old an is geered up for male benefit. It's not that it's anyone's fault we just need to level off the playing field | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? I'm not sure how feminism does that In my workplace it has, so it looked at what hindered women's progress in promotion to higher levels. It was found that child care was a massive stumbling block, so they've made it easier and made it clear that both genders are able to apply for changes in working hours. We also have a shared maternity/paternity leave. All changes that have come from how to aid women it's just there benefits for males too I can see how these positive changes are a by product of feminism. I struggle accepting that feminism as a cause, should have the empowerment of men as part of it's agenda Feminism does empower men. Men just don't like to admit it. For example, some men by nature or by preference are not, what you might call, providers. In this case, a man should be as much a feminist as any women, because he wants to oppose the life style that is imposed on him, 'men work, women breed' Another example, let's say a man wants to have intimate relationships with women, but because of how society views women and initiation of intimate relationships, the man has to always initiate contact, make a move etc etc Would it not empower men, if we stopped viewing women who 'make a move' as sluts and saw them for people, just like us, going for what they want. Would it not just be better for everyone? The word feminism is used by many for different causes, someone already said sometimes two people claiming to be feminist may have differing views on the subject. This is a matter of perspective, to me, when i hear feminism, i hear freedom, independence and most of equality." Yes. And male victims, and men in "female" (ugh) roles, and men with mental health issues, men who like to have commitment free casual sex, men who want to be more involved fathers, and more besides. | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. Not strictly true with the numbers in university if you look at stem subjects, it's only in the last couple of years they've managed to get 50/50 at undergraduate level. Post graduate the figure dramatically drops and then if you look at post doctoral positions in uni it's even more depressing. Though strides have been made especially in the last 5 years. I don't personally find, shared maternity/paternity leave, having a room for women to express milk if they are breastfeeding or making our university prospectus representative of all genders and ethnicities particularly radical. Sorry equality and diversity within stem in the UK is a massive part of my job. But I do agree with you on equality of rights and opportunities. And that the best person for the job should be employed regardless of any of their characteristics
Regarding stem subjects it's been well established that men have more of a natural inclination and interest for these themes where women naturally gravitate towards humanities / social studies / (health)care.
This is not caused by any hard barriers society throws up to impede women but rather the natural tendencies that the sexes have and what they gravitate to. Again, allow equal opportunities for all who want to pursue what they find best for them, but don't blame "patriarchy" for an uneven equality of outcome."Bit of a rubbish counter-argument being posed here because your use of the world 'natural' is totally redundant. Also your comment about there being "fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate" is, whether you intended it or not, sexist. The differences you are speaking about are all the product of social conditioning and there's a ton of research out there on that. Go back as early as 25-30 years ago and you'll find cases of women who were denied the opportunity to pick certain subjects in school or at university because of their gender. This is in the UK btw. So your argument that the differences between males and females, in the context they are being discussed here, is "natural" falls down the minute you speak to any woman alive today who has been discriminated against due to their gender...which will be most, if not all, women alive today. I wish your daughter every success in life, but you'd do well as a father to understand the issues she is likely to face growing up, instead of denying their existence. | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down" I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. Not strictly true with the numbers in university if you look at stem subjects, it's only in the last couple of years they've managed to get 50/50 at undergraduate level. Post graduate the figure dramatically drops and then if you look at post doctoral positions in uni it's even more depressing. Though strides have been made especially in the last 5 years. I don't personally find, shared maternity/paternity leave, having a room for women to express milk if they are breastfeeding or making our university prospectus representative of all genders and ethnicities particularly radical. Sorry equality and diversity within stem in the UK is a massive part of my job. But I do agree with you on equality of rights and opportunities. And that the best person for the job should be employed regardless of any of their characteristics
Regarding stem subjects it's been well established that men have more of a natural inclination and interest for these themes where women naturally gravitate towards humanities / social studies / (health)care.
This is not caused by any hard barriers society throws up to impede women but rather the natural tendencies that the sexes have and what they gravitate to. Again, allow equal opportunities for all who want to pursue what they find best for them, but don't blame "patriarchy" for an uneven equality of outcome.
Bit of a rubbish counter-argument being posed here because your use of the world 'natural' is totally redundant.
Also your comment about there being "fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate" is, whether you intended it or not, sexist. The differences you are speaking about are all the product of social conditioning and there's a ton of research out there on that. Go back as early as 25-30 years ago and you'll find cases of women who were denied the opportunity to pick certain subjects in school or at university because of their gender. This is in the UK btw. So your argument that the differences between males and females, in the context they are being discussed here, is "natural" falls down the minute you speak to any woman alive today who has been discriminated against due to their gender...which will be most, if not all, women alive today.
I wish your daughter every success in life, but you'd do well as a father to understand the issues she is likely to face growing up, instead of denying their existence."I don't deny anything and don't consider anything i've mentioned sexist. I'm also referring to today's reality, not yesteryears. I'm expressing a difference in opinion which is shared by many others and something that i've witnessed first hand through life experience and observation. We can agree to disagree | |||
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" The word feminism is used by many for different causes, someone already said sometimes two people claiming to be feminist may have differing views on the subject. This is a matter of perspective, to me, when i hear feminism, i hear freedom, independence and most of equality. Yes. And male victims, and men in "female" (ugh) roles, and men with mental health issues, men who like to have commitment free casual sex, men who want to be more involved fathers, and more besides." The list really does go on and on. I hate having to bring up why men should defend feminism by these few examples, they should just do it for the sake of their daughters, mothers wives etc just for the general good of humanity. But if they can't, then do it for yourselves lads! | |||
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" The word feminism is used by many for different causes, someone already said sometimes two people claiming to be feminist may have differing views on the subject. This is a matter of perspective, to me, when i hear feminism, i hear freedom, independence and most of equality. Yes. And male victims, and men in "female" (ugh) roles, and men with mental health issues, men who like to have commitment free casual sex, men who want to be more involved fathers, and more besides. The list really does go on and on. I hate having to bring up why men should defend feminism by these few examples, they should just do it for the sake of their daughters, mothers wives etc just for the general good of humanity. But if they can't, then do it for yourselves lads!" God yes. I'm ok. Yeah I've seen some shit but I'm tough, I got through. But I want to save others from going through what I had to, and stuff I was spared from. It's not good enough that I'm ok, I want better for other women (and men and other genders), and for girls (and boys and those who don't fit the gender binary). | |||
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"i hate having to bring up why men should defend feminism by these few examples, they should just do it for the sake of their daughters, mothers wives etc just for the general good of humanity. But if they can't, then do it for yourselves lads! God yes. I'm ok. Yeah I've seen some shit but I'm tough, I got through. But I want to save others from going through what I had to, and stuff I was spared from. It's not good enough that I'm ok, I want better for other women (and men and other genders), and for girls (and boys and those who don't fit the gender binary)." More power to you! And i dont want to make this all political or about culture because people might get offended but even today, there are places in the world where feminism isn't even about equality, its litrally life and death, the right to go to school, the right to walk out of the house! The ignorance to this is what ticks me off the most. 'Some women cant to some jobs' if you think this is what 'feminism' is all about then, well, i dont wish you well at all. | |||
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"i hate having to bring up why men should defend feminism by these few examples, they should just do it for the sake of their daughters, mothers wives etc just for the general good of humanity. But if they can't, then do it for yourselves lads! God yes. I'm ok. Yeah I've seen some shit but I'm tough, I got through. But I want to save others from going through what I had to, and stuff I was spared from. It's not good enough that I'm ok, I want better for other women (and men and other genders), and for girls (and boys and those who don't fit the gender binary). More power to you! And i dont want to make this all political or about culture because people might get offended but even today, there are places in the world where feminism isn't even about equality, its litrally life and death, the right to go to school, the right to walk out of the house! The ignorance to this is what ticks me off the most. 'Some women cant to some jobs' if you think this is what 'feminism' is all about then, well, i dont wish you well at all." God yes. There are bigger fights than in this country. But we keep fighting in this country, too. | |||
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"I’m a feminist. Well, you have to be these days if you want to get a shag! Before you all rip in to me - it’s a Paul Calf line." Even feminists have a sense of humour you know  | |||
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"I think the issue is that there is no single definition of feminism. Even two people who describe themselves as feminist will often disagree on what they believe. Personally? There is still awful inequality in many countries that should be fought against and even in so called progressive societies there is still a lot of variation in how men and women are treated (mostly at the expense of women). We need to learn to understand our own biases and understand each other. Just because one woman wants to give up her career to be a full time mother it doesn't mean she should be judged as less, equally, if someone wants to study the long term effect on life choices and behaviour of the way we speak to and about different sex children it doesn't mean they're a rabid man hater either. We need to acknowledge and understand issue like why when a man is angry we automatically assume the cause is something external to him but an angry woman is a nearly always assessed in terms of her own emotions etc. Personally I'd like to see a greater movement away from the effort to create a false dichotomy that somehow there are two types of people, men and women, and us all get better at treating people as simply people. Mr" I love and agree with this! I think there is almost a stigma when you say your a feminist because people assume you want to 'beat' men or get more opportunities than them; whereas it should just be about everyone being treated like a human. It's maybe too idealistic to think people will ever be completely equal (the quote "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others" is in my head!) but that should be the aim, no matter someone's gender, sexuality, race etc. | |||
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"I’m a feminist. Well, you have to be these days if you want to get a shag! Before you all rip in to me - it’s a Paul Calf line. Even feminists have a sense of humour you know "The hive mind will discuss this later  | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. " No there's no harm at all in that where there are fundamental differences and needs bought about by gender, of course there isn't - but my point is why does it need to be done under the banner of feminism? Why should it not just be a simple recognition of the fact that those fundamental needs need to be met and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the need for equality and also acknowledgement of different specific needs, whether that be gender related, race, religion or for those with disabilities - I just personally think in the case of some of the movements behind promoting some of those causes there's a danger of those needs getting lost by some of the radicalism that pervades the movements behind them and feminism is a good example of that. I'm not saying it's not needed, and I've already said there's a long way to go still, I just find it sad that putting men, and in some cases other women, down appears to have become part of the cause rather than recognising the differences and working *together* to eradicate them as people. Maybe I see it the way I do because I genuinely don't see people as "different" because of their gender or race etc and try to treat all equally (or at least as I find them), seeing people as people not genders or races or anything else. | |||
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"I had this conversation with my dad once, listed off the top of my head some of my experiences as a woman on the street, on public transport, in the workplace, etc and I think I broke him. " I like this comparison. There’s many examples I could give as a fairly successful businesswoman, yet not been treated as an equal. Time will hopefully tell.. | |||
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" I so agree with you I think we need to change how we perceive the genders. I hate the phrases such as "man up" and "grow some balls". Think we need to see people as individuals who have different strengths and traits that aren't gender dependent " I am so bad for doing this, especially telling myself to man up! It's definitely something I'm trying to condition myself out of saying  | |||
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"My take on this.... On paper, most of the big battles have been won. But that's on paper. The patriarchy pervades our Western culture so much that most of us don't even notice. Men do generally treat women with less respect than other men...the countless studies which show that in a business meeting the men think women talk half the time when in fact the men talk over them, offer to mansplain things etc. And one only has to look at the number of men here on Fab who seem to think that it's undesirable to have a relationship with or even get to know a woman who openly enjoys sex....to see that misogyny is alive and well. A woman still finds it harder than a man to rise to the top in business or politics for example. Just because there have been some women who became prime ministers doesn't mean they didn't find it harder purely because of their gender. Ultimately we need to dismantle the patriarchy. And progress has been made. I am no absolutist, I know it will take time and "progress, not perfection" is a useful phrase. Ultimately we will all benefit, us men too, when the culture which tells us that to be a man we've got to bottle up our emotions, never cry or be sensitive...is gone. " | |||
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"I had this conversation with my dad once, listed off the top of my head some of my experiences as a woman on the street, on public transport, in the workplace, etc and I think I broke him. I like this comparison. There’s many examples I could give as a fairly successful businesswoman, yet not been treated as an equal. Time will hopefully tell.." I would not dare tell my dad about the stuff I've been through. Not a fucking chance. I shield him, my brother, my uncle, and my male cousins, from that shit. | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. No there's no harm at all in that where there are fundamental differences and needs bought about by gender, of course there isn't - but my point is why does it need to be done under the banner of feminism? Why should it not just be a simple recognition of the fact that those fundamental needs need to be met and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the need for equality and also acknowledgement of different specific needs, whether that be gender related, race, religion or for those with disabilities - I just personally think in the case of some of the movements behind promoting some of those causes there's a danger of those needs getting lost by some of the radicalism that pervades the movements behind them and feminism is a good example of that. I'm not saying it's not needed, and I've already said there's a long way to go still, I just find it sad that putting men, and in some cases other women, down appears to have become part of the cause rather than recognising the differences and working *together* to eradicate them as people. Maybe I see it the way I do because I genuinely don't see people as "different" because of their gender or race etc and try to treat all equally (or at least as I find them), seeing people as people not genders or races or anything else." That kind of radical feminism isn't the kind of feminism I see in my daily life. I see it as making sure our pamphlets etc have a diverse range of students not just white men (this was the case only 5 years ago), it's about us female scientists going out to primary schools to show that not all scientists are old men, it's about setting up promotion work shops as women in general take longer to apply for a promotion than men. It's not about putting men down or shouting how unfair the system is. But maybe in my role as an equality and diversity officer in work I'm more practical based rather than theory I'm not sure | |||
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"I’m a feminist. Well, you have to be these days if you want to get a shag! Before you all rip in to me - it’s a Paul Calf line. Even feminists have a sense of humour you know
The hive mind will discuss this later "I await the results of this discussion with interest. | |||
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"I’m a feminist. Well, you have to be these days if you want to get a shag! Before you all rip in to me - it’s a Paul Calf line. Even feminists have a sense of humour you know
The hive mind will discuss this later
I await the results of this discussion with interest." | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication." I'm glad your daughter is beautiful. If you had a son you were proud of and wanted to pick two aspects that you considered important enough to add to an online thread, would one of them have been his looks? | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down" Ah GM, we have the same end goal in mind, but we disagree on the method, I think. It's impossible to talk about an egalitarian ideal without acknowledging that different sections of society face different barriers and difficulties which are unique to them and will therefore require different approaches. Therefore, addressing women's issues doesn't take away from the need to address other inequalities in other sections of society. If feminism has been tainted by association with some who use it to attack men that doesn't negate the entire movement, to my mind. Call it something else, if you like - the ideals remain the same, and they're not about taking stuff away from men. If Chillout feels I've misunderstood his point he is free to respond to me himself
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. I'm glad your daughter is beautiful. If you had a son you were proud of and wanted to pick two aspects that you considered important enough to add to an online thread, would one of them have been his looks?" Wow! I would and have often commented on my sons looks. They are indeed gorgeous. I’m biased of course. | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. No there's no harm at all in that where there are fundamental differences and needs bought about by gender, of course there isn't - but my point is why does it need to be done under the banner of feminism? Why should it not just be a simple recognition of the fact that those fundamental needs need to be met and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the need for equality and also acknowledgement of different specific needs, whether that be gender related, race, religion or for those with disabilities - I just personally think in the case of some of the movements behind promoting some of those causes there's a danger of those needs getting lost by some of the radicalism that pervades the movements behind them and feminism is a good example of that. I'm not saying it's not needed, and I've already said there's a long way to go still, I just find it sad that putting men, and in some cases other women, down appears to have become part of the cause rather than recognising the differences and working *together* to eradicate them as people. Maybe I see it the way I do because I genuinely don't see people as "different" because of their gender or race etc and try to treat all equally (or at least as I find them), seeing people as people not genders or races or anything else." Think of it this way GM, if we recognised that a building wasn't very accessible for disabled people, do you think the best way to tackle that would be to see everyone as just people, regardless of physical ability? | |||
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"That kind of radical feminism isn't the kind of feminism I see in my daily life. I see it as making sure our pamphlets etc have a diverse range of students not just white men (this was the case only 5 years ago), it's about us female scientists going out to primary schools to show that not all scientists are old men, it's about setting up promotion work shops as women in general take longer to apply for a promotion than men. It's not about putting men down or shouting how unfair the system is. But maybe in my role as an equality and diversity officer in work I'm more practical based rather than theory I'm not sure " And all very worthy and valued causes, and maybe herein lies the difference, and where it comes back to the valid points made at the start of the thread before it headed down the inevitable usual route, about the different definitions of "feminism" that people hold, because I do think that largely the term has been tainted by the more radical views of both those that practice it and those that seek to put it down to the point that the stereotype comes to the fore, which in itself is a shame, and is why, for me personally a move to promote equality and egalitarianist views are what I hold to be the more worthwhile aim - know it's an idealistic view, and actually isn't that far removed from what you are referring to, but it removes the more radical elements too. | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. I'm glad your daughter is beautiful. If you had a son you were proud of and wanted to pick two aspects that you considered important enough to add to an online thread, would one of them have been his looks? Wow! I would and have often commented on my sons looks. They are indeed gorgeous. I’m biased of course. " I'm sure you have, and I'm sure you believe he is good looking. However, I also know that if you went through any newspaper, online article, any journal where there are descriptions of peoples abilities the appearance of women is mentioned far more than that of men. We will never know but I'd put money that you wouldn't have said "I have a bright handsome son who I want to aim for the stars". Sadly, a woman's looks are considered far more relevant to her worth than a man's. There is plenty of research out there to back this up if you don't believe me. Mr | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down Ah GM, we have the same end goal in mind, but we disagree on the method, I think. It's impossible to talk about an egalitarian ideal without acknowledging that different sections of society face different barriers and difficulties which are unique to them and will therefore require different approaches. Therefore, addressing women's issues doesn't take away from the need to address other inequalities in other sections of society. If feminism has been tainted by association with some who use it to attack men that doesn't negate the entire movement, to my mind. Call it something else, if you like - the ideals remain the same, and they're not about taking stuff away from men. If Chillout feels I've misunderstood his point he is free to respond to me himself
Mrs TMN x"I don't actually think we disagree on the method either - in fact we're saying a lot of the same things different ways. As I said "where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc" - I totally get that disparities need to be addressed but let's do it *together* not as an us and them battle under a banner of any kind other than a united one. | |||
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"My take on this.... On paper, most of the big battles have been won. But that's on paper. The patriarchy pervades our Western culture so much that most of us don't even notice. Men do generally treat women with less respect than other men...the countless studies which show that in a business meeting the men think women talk half the time when in fact the men talk over them, offer to mansplain things etc. And one only has to look at the number of men here on Fab who seem to think that it's undesirable to have a relationship with or even get to know a woman who openly enjoys sex....to see that misogyny is alive and well. A woman still finds it harder than a man to rise to the top in business or politics for example. Just because there have been some women who became prime ministers doesn't mean they didn't find it harder purely because of their gender. Ultimately we need to dismantle the patriarchy. And progress has been made. I am no absolutist, I know it will take time and "progress, not perfection" is a useful phrase. Ultimately we will all benefit, us men too, when the culture which tells us that to be a man we've got to bottle up our emotions, never cry or be sensitive...is gone. " | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. No there's no harm at all in that where there are fundamental differences and needs bought about by gender, of course there isn't - but my point is why does it need to be done under the banner of feminism? Why should it not just be a simple recognition of the fact that those fundamental needs need to be met and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the need for equality and also acknowledgement of different specific needs, whether that be gender related, race, religion or for those with disabilities - I just personally think in the case of some of the movements behind promoting some of those causes there's a danger of those needs getting lost by some of the radicalism that pervades the movements behind them and feminism is a good example of that. I'm not saying it's not needed, and I've already said there's a long way to go still, I just find it sad that putting men, and in some cases other women, down appears to have become part of the cause rather than recognising the differences and working *together* to eradicate them as people. Maybe I see it the way I do because I genuinely don't see people as "different" because of their gender or race etc and try to treat all equally (or at least as I find them), seeing people as people not genders or races or anything else. Think of it this way GM, if we recognised that a building wasn't very accessible for disabled people, do you think the best way to tackle that would be to see everyone as just people, regardless of physical ability? " I think you've missed the point. If you look you'll find reams of data on how to make stairs, doors, beds, chairs etc ergonomic. Treating all people as people, not women or disabled means taking as much time considering the needs of those groups as is ALREADY done for others, not treating them as special cases. We overlook the thousands of years of effort that have gone into building a world that suits able bodied people in general and men in particular when we think that asking for a breast feeding room is giving women special treatment. No-one considers providing two toilet options for men as then being treated as special, it is just accepted as normal. Treating all people as people means striving to make little changes for the benefit of all so that no one group is disadvantaged. Mr | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. No there's no harm at all in that where there are fundamental differences and needs bought about by gender, of course there isn't - but my point is why does it need to be done under the banner of feminism? Why should it not just be a simple recognition of the fact that those fundamental needs need to be met and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the need for equality and also acknowledgement of different specific needs, whether that be gender related, race, religion or for those with disabilities - I just personally think in the case of some of the movements behind promoting some of those causes there's a danger of those needs getting lost by some of the radicalism that pervades the movements behind them and feminism is a good example of that. I'm not saying it's not needed, and I've already said there's a long way to go still, I just find it sad that putting men, and in some cases other women, down appears to have become part of the cause rather than recognising the differences and working *together* to eradicate them as people. Maybe I see it the way I do because I genuinely don't see people as "different" because of their gender or race etc and try to treat all equally (or at least as I find them), seeing people as people not genders or races or anything else. Think of it this way GM, if we recognised that a building wasn't very accessible for disabled people, do you think the best way to tackle that would be to see everyone as just people, regardless of physical ability? " No of course not Lacey and I have acknowledged that sometimes there are fundamental differences that gender, ability, race etc result in different specific needs, but again do they need to be addressed under a specific banner or under one united one is all I'm saying - yes that's an idealists view and I acknowledge that but it surely is a good aim to have too? | |||
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"I think you've missed the point. If you look you'll find reams of data on how to make stairs, doors, beds, chairs etc ergonomic. Treating all people as people, not women or disabled means taking as much time considering the needs of those groups as is ALREADY done for others, not treating them as special cases. We overlook the thousands of years of effort that have gone into building a world that suits able bodied people in general and men in particular when we think that asking for a breast feeding room is giving women special treatment. No-one considers providing two toilet options for men as then being treated as special, it is just accepted as normal. Treating all people as people means striving to make little changes for the benefit of all so that no one group is disadvantaged. Mr" Yes. We need to look through the eyes of the disadvantaged in order to undo the damage done. To me calling it egalitarianism would be like saying, oh, all fine, grab us a cuppa tea darlin'. | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down Ah GM, we have the same end goal in mind, but we disagree on the method, I think. It's impossible to talk about an egalitarian ideal without acknowledging that different sections of society face different barriers and difficulties which are unique to them and will therefore require different approaches. Therefore, addressing women's issues doesn't take away from the need to address other inequalities in other sections of society. If feminism has been tainted by association with some who use it to attack men that doesn't negate the entire movement, to my mind. Call it something else, if you like - the ideals remain the same, and they're not about taking stuff away from men. If Chillout feels I've misunderstood his point he is free to respond to me himself
Mrs TMN x
I don't actually think we disagree on the method either - in fact we're saying a lot of the same things different ways. As I said "where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc" - I totally get that disparities need to be addressed but let's do it *together* not as an us and them battle under a banner of any kind other than a united one. "I think it's valuable to listen to people who've had a particular experience - especially when it's entirely outside our own sphere of knowledge - and validate them. Telling me, as a woman, that all inequalities should be addressed when I call myself a feminist feels rather dismissive. | |||
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" No of course not Lacey and I have acknowledged that sometimes there are fundamental differences that gender, ability, race etc result in different specific needs, but again do they need to be addressed under a specific banner or under one united one is all I'm saying - yes that's an idealists view and I acknowledge that but it surely is a good aim to have too?" Can you not see how this can be interpreted as being akin to suggesting that BLM should be saying all lives matter? | |||
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"I'm a firm believer of equal rights and equality of opportunity, but not equality of outcome. In today's western society, women are presidents, prime ministers and CEO's. Women make up a majority of university students and graduates. Women tend to be favoured with regards to child custody and alimony. It's beyond me why I see a constant railing against "patriarchy". If it was indeed widespread how could the current situation be possible? Modern day feminism has become quite radicalised and seems to want to pit men against women rather than acknowledge that there are fundamental differences between the sexes that social engineering cannot eradicate. I have a bright, beautiful 7 year old daughter and want her to aim for the stars and fulfill her dreams. I fully expect her to achieve it not based on her gender, but through her individual competence and dedication. I'm glad your daughter is beautiful. If you had a son you were proud of and wanted to pick two aspects that you considered important enough to add to an online thread, would one of them have been his looks?" Absolutely. He's gorgeous, sensitive and very bright as well | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? I'm not sure how feminism does that In my workplace it has, so it looked at what hindered women's progress in promotion to higher levels. It was found that child care was a massive stumbling block, so they've made it easier and made it clear that both genders are able to apply for changes in working hours. We also have a shared maternity/paternity leave. All changes that have come from how to aid women it's just there benefits for males too " that only works if you both work for the same organisation OR there elative partners organisations mirror the others which is prettttty unlikely. not to mention regional versions as well as country and relion based amongst many others. as a society and as a wider subject, we have lost lots of moral drive and fortitude and confused itbwith tights and demands. SJW this... woke that.... can't say this.. cant call a spade a spade. our society and the whole worlds societies have turned onto "moral fracking". destroying a solid bed to squeeze every drop of self rightousness out whether its needed or not. | |||
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"I can't really get on board with the idea that feminism should empower men Not even if it's to empower men to be the primary care givers thus allowing mother's to be the main bread winners? I'm not sure how feminism does that In my workplace it has, so it looked at what hindered women's progress in promotion to higher levels. It was found that child care was a massive stumbling block, so they've made it easier and made it clear that both genders are able to apply for changes in working hours. We also have a shared maternity/paternity leave. All changes that have come from how to aid women it's just there benefits for males too that only works if you both work for the same organisation OR there elative partners organisations mirror the others which is prettttty unlikely. not to mention regional versions as well as country and relion based amongst many others. as a society and as a wider subject, we have lost lots of moral drive and fortitude and confused itbwith tights and demands. SJW this... woke that.... can't say this.. cant call a spade a spade. our society and the whole worlds societies have turned onto "moral fracking". destroying a solid bed to squeeze every drop of self rightousness out whether its needed or not. "Yes the shared maternity/paternity system isn't ideal. But my ex partner reduced his working hours to cover child care. It's not perfect but it's progress. I'm afraid I'm dyslexic and was unable to grasp your second paragraph meaning I'm afraid | |||
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"I like a woman to be feminine. Did I answer that right or shall I duck?" Cover testicles and run!  | |||
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"I like a woman to be feminine. Did I answer that right or shall I duck? Cover testicles and run! " | |||
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"Some bird in work is into all that feminism nonsense "Cover testicles!... and run like fuck!! | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. No there's no harm at all in that where there are fundamental differences and needs bought about by gender, of course there isn't - but my point is why does it need to be done under the banner of feminism? Why should it not just be a simple recognition of the fact that those fundamental needs need to be met and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the need for equality and also acknowledgement of different specific needs, whether that be gender related, race, religion or for those with disabilities - I just personally think in the case of some of the movements behind promoting some of those causes there's a danger of those needs getting lost by some of the radicalism that pervades the movements behind them and feminism is a good example of that. I'm not saying it's not needed, and I've already said there's a long way to go still, I just find it sad that putting men, and in some cases other women, down appears to have become part of the cause rather than recognising the differences and working *together* to eradicate them as people. Maybe I see it the way I do because I genuinely don't see people as "different" because of their gender or race etc and try to treat all equally (or at least as I find them), seeing people as people not genders or races or anything else. Think of it this way GM, if we recognised that a building wasn't very accessible for disabled people, do you think the best way to tackle that would be to see everyone as just people, regardless of physical ability? I think you've missed the point. If you look you'll find reams of data on how to make stairs, doors, beds, chairs etc ergonomic. Treating all people as people, not women or disabled means taking as much time considering the needs of those groups as is ALREADY done for others, not treating them as special cases. We overlook the thousands of years of effort that have gone into building a world that suits able bodied people in general and men in particular when we think that asking for a breast feeding room is giving women special treatment. No-one considers providing two toilet options for men as then being treated as special, it is just accepted as normal. Treating all people as people means striving to make little changes for the benefit of all so that no one group is disadvantaged. Mr" Who's point am I missing? I pointed out how ignoring differences can be counter productive to making things accessible for all. I'm not sure how you know that I think disabled people should be treated as "special cases" and I don't for the record. Especially as I am one myself. | |||
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"Some bird in work is into all that feminism nonsense
Cover testicles!... and run like fuck!! " | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. No there's no harm at all in that where there are fundamental differences and needs bought about by gender, of course there isn't - but my point is why does it need to be done under the banner of feminism? Why should it not just be a simple recognition of the fact that those fundamental needs need to be met and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the need for equality and also acknowledgement of different specific needs, whether that be gender related, race, religion or for those with disabilities - I just personally think in the case of some of the movements behind promoting some of those causes there's a danger of those needs getting lost by some of the radicalism that pervades the movements behind them and feminism is a good example of that. I'm not saying it's not needed, and I've already said there's a long way to go still, I just find it sad that putting men, and in some cases other women, down appears to have become part of the cause rather than recognising the differences and working *together* to eradicate them as people. Maybe I see it the way I do because I genuinely don't see people as "different" because of their gender or race etc and try to treat all equally (or at least as I find them), seeing people as people not genders or races or anything else. Think of it this way GM, if we recognised that a building wasn't very accessible for disabled people, do you think the best way to tackle that would be to see everyone as just people, regardless of physical ability? No of course not Lacey and I have acknowledged that sometimes there are fundamental differences that gender, ability, race etc result in different specific needs, but again do they need to be addressed under a specific banner or under one united one is all I'm saying - yes that's an idealists view and I acknowledge that but it surely is a good aim to have too?" Personally I don't care what you call it but its still the case that you often have to concentrate on those struggling under a current system in order to improve things. Especially as those not facing the issues that the struggling group do may not even be aware that something is an issue if it does not affect them. | |||
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" I think it's valuable to listen to people who've had a particular experience - especially when it's entirely outside our own sphere of knowledge - and validate them. Telling me, as a woman, that all inequalities should be addressed when I call myself a feminist feels rather dismissive. " If it's come across as dismissive then that was not the intent in the slightest | |||
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" No of course not Lacey and I have acknowledged that sometimes there are fundamental differences that gender, ability, race etc result in different specific needs, but again do they need to be addressed under a specific banner or under one united one is all I'm saying - yes that's an idealists view and I acknowledge that but it surely is a good aim to have too? Can you not see how this can be interpreted as being akin to suggesting that BLM should be saying all lives matter?" I can see how it *could* be "interpreted" that way but that doesn't mean it's the only way to interpret it either - that certainly isn't my intent or interpretation of what I said | |||
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"Feminism as man-bashing is entirely counterproductive, to my mind. We have to work together to be able to enact change. A society with equality for all may be an impossible dream, but validating each other's concerns is the first step. Mrs TMN x Totally respect *all* you've said Mrs TMN but think the key point is in that last paragraph and think it's the point Chill was trying to make - it shouldn't be about us and them, men and women, but about "us" full stop - and sadly for me feminism has become about man bashing and radicalised talk of "patriarchies" and as I said further up moved away from what it originally, rightly, set out to achieve. Which is why I prefer to talk about equality and egalitarianism than feminism - address differences for all not for some - yes where that difference is women needing to be bought on a level the focus will need to be there of course, but do it with the ultimate aim of equality for all regardless of gender, race etc. not as a means to put another gender, race etc down I see your point, but females encounter different issues to men. We get pregnant we return to work whilst still wanting to breast feed. Feminism in my work place has meant that line managers are told what the members of staffs rights are whilst pregnant we have a room for women to express milk and an appropriate fridge to store the milk if we need it. There's no harm saying that the genders face different issues in the workplace. No there's no harm at all in that where there are fundamental differences and needs bought about by gender, of course there isn't - but my point is why does it need to be done under the banner of feminism? Why should it not just be a simple recognition of the fact that those fundamental needs need to be met and acknowledged. Don't get me wrong, I totally get the need for equality and also acknowledgement of different specific needs, whether that be gender related, race, religion or for those with disabilities - I just personally think in the case of some of the movements behind promoting some of those causes there's a danger of those needs getting lost by some of the radicalism that pervades the movements behind them and feminism is a good example of that. I'm not saying it's not needed, and I've already said there's a long way to go still, I just find it sad that putting men, and in some cases other women, down appears to have become part of the cause rather than recognising the differences and working *together* to eradicate them as people. Maybe I see it the way I do because I genuinely don't see people as "different" because of their gender or race etc and try to treat all equally (or at least as I find them), seeing people as people not genders or races or anything else. Think of it this way GM, if we recognised that a building wasn't very accessible for disabled people, do you think the best way to tackle that would be to see everyone as just people, regardless of physical ability? No of course not Lacey and I have acknowledged that sometimes there are fundamental differences that gender, ability, race etc result in different specific needs, but again do they need to be addressed under a specific banner or under one united one is all I'm saying - yes that's an idealists view and I acknowledge that but it surely is a good aim to have too? Personally I don't care what you call it but its still the case that you often have to concentrate on those struggling under a current system in order to improve things. Especially as those not facing the issues that the struggling group do may not even be aware that something is an issue if it does not affect them. " I do get what you mean and agree with this. I think with the man/woman thing though there is a complex range of issues. Some are clear (equal pay, equal opportunities etc). But others are a lot more complex,we can't even agree what differences are nature or nurture. It is clear there are some biological differences and equally clear that others are cultural and then there is a whole mess in the middle that could be either, a mix of both or probably an interaction of both. There are endless arguments around (for example) whether women make better carers for children with passionate men and women on both sides of the argument. I believe it is in these circumstances that we should endeavour to see individuals as people, not men or women. When it comes to fighting outright injustice then absolutely it is right that we talk of feminism or women's rights or whatever you want to call it. Mr | |||
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" Personally I don't care what you call it but its still the case that you often have to concentrate on those struggling under a current system in order to improve things. Especially as those not facing the issues that the struggling group do may not even be aware that something is an issue if it does not affect them. " Absolutely you do - a point I have made and acknowledged several times now I believe | |||
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"The U.S is about to appoint it's first VP. It has taken this long. Women are still held back in many areas, such as business, politics and ecconomics, to name but a few. Thay'a 50% of the world's population being held back, based on their gender. Do we still need feminism? We certainly do." I think this thread is a display of why we need feminism  | |||
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" Personally I don't care what you call it but its still the case that you often have to concentrate on those struggling under a current system in order to improve things. Especially as those not facing the issues that the struggling group do may not even be aware that something is an issue if it does not affect them. Absolutely you do - a point I have made and acknowledged several times now I believe "That's what feminism is though. It feels like you agree with feminism when it's described in any way, just not when the word itself is used. | |||
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"The U.S is about to appoint it's first VP. It has taken this long. Women are still held back in many areas, such as business, politics and ecconomics, to name but a few. Thay'a 50% of the world's population being held back, based on their gender. Do we still need feminism? We certainly do. I think this thread is a display of why we need feminism "Luckily, we all respect eachother's opinions here | |||
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" Personally I don't care what you call it but its still the case that you often have to concentrate on those struggling under a current system in order to improve things. Especially as those not facing the issues that the struggling group do may not even be aware that something is an issue if it does not affect them. Absolutely you do - a point I have made and acknowledged several times now I believe
That's what feminism is though. It feels like you agree with feminism when it's described in any way, just not when the word itself is used. "Is it though? If you go back to the first post I made on this thread together with the post I quoted and agreed with in that post, you'll see why I question the word "feminism" - it *has* come to mean different things to different people and *has* become a stick to beat men with to some degree and is why I prefer, personally, to take an "equality for all" egalitarian view of things whilst acknowledging there is a lot of work to be done in certain areas including the equality of gender to achieve that. | |||
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" Personally I don't care what you call it but its still the case that you often have to concentrate on those struggling under a current system in order to improve things. Especially as those not facing the issues that the struggling group do may not even be aware that something is an issue if it does not affect them. Absolutely you do - a point I have made and acknowledged several times now I believe
That's what feminism is though. It feels like you agree with feminism when it's described in any way, just not when the word itself is used.
Is it though? If you go back to the first post I made on this thread together with the post I quoted and agreed with in that post, you'll see why I question the word "feminism" - it *has* come to mean different things to different people and *has* become a stick to beat men with to some degree and is why I prefer, personally, to take an "equality for all" egalitarian view of things whilst acknowledging there is a lot of work to be done in certain areas including the equality of gender to achieve that."Sometimes black people have become so pissed off with the status quo they've lashed out at white people but I personally would never switch from BLM to all lives matter as a result. I just recognise that while their behaviour isn't necessarily helpful, it's just frustration and understandably so. At the end of the day, I'm not repressed because I'm a white person. I can take being on the receiving end of POC being angry due to their treatment by too many of my race and therefore potentially taking it out on us all. | |||
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"That kind of radical feminism isn't the kind of feminism I see in my daily life. I see it as making sure our pamphlets etc have a diverse range of students not just white men (this was the case only 5 years ago), it's about us female scientists going out to primary schools to show that not all scientists are old men, it's about setting up promotion work shops as women in general take longer to apply for a promotion than men. It's not about putting men down or shouting how unfair the system is. But maybe in my role as an equality and diversity officer in work I'm more practical based rather than theory I'm not sure And all very worthy and valued causes, and maybe herein lies the difference, and where it comes back to the valid points made at the start of the thread before it headed down the inevitable usual route, about the different definitions of "feminism" that people hold, because I do think that largely the term has been tainted by the more radical views of both those that practice it and those that seek to put it down to the point that the stereotype comes to the fore, which in itself is a shame, and is why, for me personally a move to promote equality and egalitarianist views are what I hold to be the more worthwhile aim - know it's an idealistic view, and actually isn't that far removed from what you are referring to, but it removes the more radical elements too." But I kind of fail to see this radical "feminism" you say exists being very mainstream. Nobody on this thread who identifies as a feminist seems very radical based on their posts, so I can only presume it's not the norm. As with every movement even your own there will be those on the more extreme ends, doesn't mean it isn't a valid movement and should be judged by the minority | |||
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" I think it's valuable to listen to people who've had a particular experience - especially when it's entirely outside our own sphere of knowledge - and validate them. Telling me, as a woman, that all inequalities should be addressed when I call myself a feminist feels rather dismissive. If it's come across as dismissive then that was not the intent in the slightest " I didn't think it was | |||
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"Excellent thread, OP! X" Thank you, it's been thought provoking x | |||
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" But I kind of fail to see this radical "feminism" you say exists being very mainstream. Nobody on this thread who identifies as a feminist seems very radical based on their posts, so I can only presume it's not the norm. As with every movement even your own there will be those on the more extreme ends, doesn't mean it isn't a valid movement and should be judged by the minority "I wasn't suggesting it was mainstream but did say the term had been "tainted" by the radicals and the stereotypes that in turn has created - I'd also disagree about people here not holding radical views, maybe not expressed on this thread but they appear on a fairly regular basis in various forms elsewhere. As for a "movement" of my own, I don't have one per se, and actually don't think anyone on this thread, myself included, have said anything different from one another really - it may have been expressed in different terms but the message of equality for all and taking the necessary steps, through whatever movement, is what has shone through to me at least. I'd concur too that it's been an interesting and thought provoking thread that has resulted in open and honest debate rather than the usual descent into contention, sniping and personal agendas. | |||
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" But I kind of fail to see this radical "feminism" you say exists being very mainstream. Nobody on this thread who identifies as a feminist seems very radical based on their posts, so I can only presume it's not the norm. As with every movement even your own there will be those on the more extreme ends, doesn't mean it isn't a valid movement and should be judged by the minority
I wasn't suggesting it was mainstream but did say the term had been "tainted" by the radicals and the stereotypes that in turn has created - I'd also disagree about people here not holding radical views, maybe not expressed on this thread but they appear on a fairly regular basis in various forms elsewhere.
As for a "movement" of my own, I don't have one per se, and actually don't think anyone on this thread, myself included, have said anything different from one another really - it may have been expressed in different terms but the message of equality for all and taking the necessary steps, through whatever movement, is what has shone through to me at least.
I'd concur too that it's been an interesting and thought provoking thread that has resulted in open and honest debate rather than the usual descent into contention, sniping and personal agendas."GM could you highlight some views you think are too radical, so I know what you are alluding too please. | |||
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"I wrote to dead long contribution but my screen refreshed and it was lost. Much of what others have said echo my POV - I feel well qualified to comment in my capacity as a: Former teenage mother at 16 (and mother of 2) Microbiology graduate Former research microbiologist Qualified Biology & medical health science teacher Mentor to boys at a youth project in central Manchester Former STEM Ambassador Manager of a Science education department in a college from the age of 31 Former breastmilk pumper in the workplace (first to do it in my workplace) Wife of a Geology graduate and perpetual non-career orientated man Disabled woman I've benefited MASSIVELY from the feminist movements of the past and present, I know I have. I'd like to think my son and daughter will study, live and work in an even more progressive world. My son identifies as a feminist and I'm very proud of that. My daughter is too young to comprehend but she wore a Minecraft t-shirt from the "boys" department to nursery today and wanted a jumper from Next (also from the "boys" section) because she'd look like Daddy. Yes, my girl!" | |||
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" GM could you highlight some views you think are too radical, so I know what you are alluding too please." I'm not about to go trawling through threads and digging out comments, nor am I going to provide anecdotal examples which would no doubt be shot down as just that, but I'm not alone in knowing they exist and don't have anything to prove any more than if you'd asked me to provide evidence of regular misogyny, which we all know exists also. I think the debate has been had, and as I said above it has been both thought provoking and interesting with valid (and as I said similar when you actually look at them) points made whichever angle you come from. | |||
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"I wrote to dead long contribution but my screen refreshed and it was lost. Much of what others have said echo my POV - I feel well qualified to comment in my capacity as a: Former teenage mother at 16 (and mother of 2) Microbiology graduate Former research microbiologist Qualified Biology & medical health science teacher Mentor to boys at a youth project in central Manchester Former STEM Ambassador Manager of a Science education department in a college from the age of 31 Former breastmilk pumper in the workplace (first to do it in my workplace) Wife of a Geology graduate and perpetual non-career orientated man Disabled woman I've benefited MASSIVELY from the feminist movements of the past and present, I know I have. I'd like to think my son and daughter will study, live and work in an even more progressive world. My son identifies as a feminist and I'm very proud of that. My daughter is too young to comprehend but she wore a Minecraft t-shirt from the "boys" department to nursery today and wanted a jumper from Next (also from the "boys" section) because she'd look like Daddy. Yes, my girl!" High five, on breaking down barriers and stereotypes. We're similar with the kids my youngest son loved pink and he wore girls pink fleeces and wellies for ages and Ms daughter wares boys dinosaur t shirts | |||
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"I think the people within feminism need to sit down and sort out what’s what I see a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. I see a lot of feminism ignoring mens issues, or worse, mocking them. I see a lot of “have your cake and eat it too” mentality There’s a reason that women identifying as feminist is going down every year. " | |||
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"I think the people within feminism need to sit down and sort out what’s what I see a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. I see a lot of feminism ignoring mens issues, or worse, mocking them. I see a lot of “have your cake and eat it too” mentality There’s a reason that women identifying as feminist is going down every year. " (Though this is a response it’s only because your post made me think of some things rather than it being directed at you). People are dying for the movement to be more inclusive for men and we’ve even got some watered down definitions floating about. Feminism started and in my opinion should’ve remained a movement for women’s rights to achieve equality. People not identifying as feminist these days is for a number of reasons I think one because they feel like it’s leaving men behind I’m sure but I think it’s also to do with mainstream feminism not being intersectional and or revolutionary enough. Or rather the feminism that we read about is mostly not those things. It’s a bit of sensationalism sometimes. But anyway, I think most feminism- that’s the work not the people obsessed with the label- doesn’t ignore men’s issues and actually are advocates and supportive of men who experience gender inequality and the certainly recognise the way the patriarchy oppresses men too. Interestingly, I see less men (not associated with feminist movements) organising effectively for change for men’s issues. I mostly see men (not you, just generally so that there’s not confusion) that bring up men’s rights in conversation about feminism are also not actively engaged in movements to tackle these issues or starting their own movement, rather they’re using it to discredit feminism as harmful. My unpopular take on this, similar to my one above, that people in my opinion should remember where feminism came from, who were the ones doing the foundation work for a movement, who it was designed for and how it provided a safe space for women to meet, organise and to challenge oppressive societal structures that created gender inequality. | |||
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"I think the people within feminism need to sit down and sort out what’s what I see a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. I see a lot of feminism ignoring mens issues, or worse, mocking them. I see a lot of “have your cake and eat it too” mentality There’s a reason that women identifying as feminist is going down every year. (Though this is a response it’s only because your post made me think of some things rather than it being directed at you). People are dying for the movement to be more inclusive for men and we’ve even got some watered down definitions floating about. Feminism started and in my opinion should’ve remained a movement for women’s rights to achieve equality. People not identifying as feminist these days is for a number of reasons I think one because they feel like it’s leaving men behind I’m sure but I think it’s also to do with mainstream feminism not being intersectional and or revolutionary enough. Or rather the feminism that we read about is mostly not those things. It’s a bit of sensationalism sometimes. But anyway, I think most feminism- that’s the work not the people obsessed with the label- doesn’t ignore men’s issues and actually are advocates and supportive of men who experience gender inequality and the certainly recognise the way the patriarchy oppresses men too. Interestingly, I see less men (not associated with feminist movements) organising effectively for change for men’s issues. I mostly see men (not you, just generally so that there’s not confusion) that bring up men’s rights in conversation about feminism are also not actively engaged in movements to tackle these issues or starting their own movement, rather they’re using it to discredit feminism as harmful. My unpopular take on this, similar to my one above, that people in my opinion should remember where feminism came from, who were the ones doing the foundation work for a movement, who it was designed for and how it provided a safe space for women to meet, organise and to challenge oppressive societal structures that created gender inequality. " Preech!! 
Jo.Xx | |||
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"I think the issue is that there is no single definition of feminism. Even two people who describe themselves as feminist will often disagree on what they believe. Personally? There is still awful inequality in many countries that should be fought against and even in so called progressive societies there is still a lot of variation in how men and women are treated (mostly at the expense of women). We need to learn to understand our own biases and understand each other. Just because one woman wants to give up her career to be a full time mother it doesn't mean she should be judged as less, equally, if someone wants to study the long term effect on life choices and behaviour of the way we speak to and about different sex children it doesn't mean they're a rabid man hater either. We need to acknowledge and understand issue like why when a man is angry we automatically assume the cause is something external to him but an angry woman is a nearly always assessed in terms of her own emotions etc. Personally I'd like to see a greater movement away from the effort to create a false dichotomy that somehow there are two types of people, men and women, and us all get better at treating people as simply people. Mr" | |||
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"I think the people within feminism need to sit down and sort out what’s what I see a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. I see a lot of feminism ignoring mens issues, or worse, mocking them. I see a lot of “have your cake and eat it too” mentality There’s a reason that women identifying as feminist is going down every year. (Though this is a response it’s only because your post made me think of some things rather than it being directed at you). People are dying for the movement to be more inclusive for men and we’ve even got some watered down definitions floating about. Feminism started and in my opinion should’ve remained a movement for women’s rights to achieve equality. People not identifying as feminist these days is for a number of reasons I think one because they feel like it’s leaving men behind I’m sure but I think it’s also to do with mainstream feminism not being intersectional and or revolutionary enough. Or rather the feminism that we read about is mostly not those things. It’s a bit of sensationalism sometimes. But anyway, I think most feminism- that’s the work not the people obsessed with the label- doesn’t ignore men’s issues and actually are advocates and supportive of men who experience gender inequality and the certainly recognise the way the patriarchy oppresses men too. Interestingly, I see less men (not associated with feminist movements) organising effectively for change for men’s issues. I mostly see men (not you, just generally so that there’s not confusion) that bring up men’s rights in conversation about feminism are also not actively engaged in movements to tackle these issues or starting their own movement, rather they’re using it to discredit feminism as harmful. My unpopular take on this, similar to my one above, that people in my opinion should remember where feminism came from, who were the ones doing the foundation work for a movement, who it was designed for and how it provided a safe space for women to meet, organise and to challenge oppressive societal structures that created gender inequality. " Don't be silly Steve. Feminists should do it all for them. Otherwise we don't really believe in gender equality. | |||
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"I think the people within feminism need to sit down and sort out what’s what I see a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. I see a lot of feminism ignoring mens issues, or worse, mocking them. I see a lot of “have your cake and eat it too” mentality There’s a reason that women identifying as feminist is going down every year. (Though this is a response it’s only because your post made me think of some things rather than it being directed at you). People are dying for the movement to be more inclusive for men and we’ve even got some watered down definitions floating about. Feminism started and in my opinion should’ve remained a movement for women’s rights to achieve equality. People not identifying as feminist these days is for a number of reasons I think one because they feel like it’s leaving men behind I’m sure but I think it’s also to do with mainstream feminism not being intersectional and or revolutionary enough. Or rather the feminism that we read about is mostly not those things. It’s a bit of sensationalism sometimes. But anyway, I think most feminism- that’s the work not the people obsessed with the label- doesn’t ignore men’s issues and actually are advocates and supportive of men who experience gender inequality and the certainly recognise the way the patriarchy oppresses men too. Interestingly, I see less men (not associated with feminist movements) organising effectively for change for men’s issues. I mostly see men (not you, just generally so that there’s not confusion) that bring up men’s rights in conversation about feminism are also not actively engaged in movements to tackle these issues or starting their own movement, rather they’re using it to discredit feminism as harmful. My unpopular take on this, similar to my one above, that people in my opinion should remember where feminism came from, who were the ones doing the foundation work for a movement, who it was designed for and how it provided a safe space for women to meet, organise and to challenge oppressive societal structures that created gender inequality. " Good points, I agree. Feminism has been turned into a “equality for everyone” movement then failed to do that. That puts a lot of people off. Although I don’t see the point of misandry disguised as feminism being tackled. Some of the things I see, the slogans, the statements, the attitudes of people in the name of “feminism” are down right disgusting. Fight your fight, let men fight theirs. In the worlds of will smith. Keep my gender out your god dammed mouth | |||
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"I think the people within feminism need to sit down and sort out what’s what I see a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. I see a lot of feminism ignoring mens issues, or worse, mocking them. I see a lot of “have your cake and eat it too” mentality There’s a reason that women identifying as feminist is going down every year. " Feminists don't have an association which comes up with rules. I don't know how you think it works but there are often massive disagreements between different branches of feminisms and individuals. Just like any other movement. Which mens' issues do you feel feminism isn't paying attention to? | |||
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"I think the people within feminism need to sit down and sort out what’s what I see a lot of misandry disguised as feminism. I see a lot of feminism ignoring mens issues, or worse, mocking them. I see a lot of “have your cake and eat it too” mentality There’s a reason that women identifying as feminist is going down every year. (Though this is a response it’s only because your post made me think of some things rather than it being directed at you). People are dying for the movement to be more inclusive for men and we’ve even got some watered down definitions floating about. Feminism started and in my opinion should’ve remained a movement for women’s rights to achieve equality. People not identifying as feminist these days is for a number of reasons I think one because they feel like it’s leaving men behind I’m sure but I think it’s also to do with mainstream feminism not being intersectional and or revolutionary enough. Or rather the feminism that we read about is mostly not those things. It’s a bit of sensationalism sometimes. But anyway, I think most feminism- that’s the work not the people obsessed with the label- doesn’t ignore men’s issues and actually are advocates and supportive of men who experience gender inequality and the certainly recognise the way the patriarchy oppresses men too. Interestingly, I see less men (not associated with feminist movements) organising effectively for change for men’s issues. I mostly see men (not you, just generally so that there’s not confusion) that bring up men’s rights in conversation about feminism are also not actively engaged in movements to tackle these issues or starting their own movement, rather they’re using it to discredit feminism as harmful. My unpopular take on this, similar to my one above, that people in my opinion should remember where feminism came from, who were the ones doing the foundation work for a movement, who it was designed for and how it provided a safe space for women to meet, organise and to challenge oppressive societal structures that created gender inequality. " Yes. I've been pondering my isms today. It seems to me that we're allowed to progress - begrudgingly, eventually - once we find a version that doesn't upset the status quo, that can be monetised. That the powerful can use to congratulate themselves (ourselves). Deny there's a problem, deny they're part of the problem, refuse to engage in any effort to solve any problems. Stagnating for the next generation, if not actively making it worse. I want better for those who come after me. Even if they're different to me. Even if they make me uncomfortable. For everyone to be able to fulfill their potential. At the moment we seem largely stuck in telling people to shut up, comply, and spend. Bollocks to that. | |||
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"Rather than feminism we should concentrate on equality in general be that gender, disability, race, colour, religion and everything else that causes people grief" So intersectional activism? Excellent. My feminism is intersectional. | |||
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"Rather than feminism we should concentrate on equality in general be that gender, disability, race, colour, religion and everything else that causes people grief So intersectional activism? Excellent. My feminism is intersectional. " | |||
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"Rather than feminism we should concentrate on equality in general be that gender, disability, race, colour, religion and everything else that causes people grief So intersectional activism? Excellent. My feminism is intersectional. "Most people are reasonable about all forms of discrimination but a small, very small, percentage cause the problems | |||
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"Rather than feminism we should concentrate on equality in general be that gender, disability, race, colour, religion and everything else that causes people grief So intersectional activism? Excellent. My feminism is intersectional.
Most people are reasonable about all forms of discrimination but a small, very small, percentage cause the problems "What point are you trying to make? | |||
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"Feminism is still really important. But if the feminism isn’t intersectional, We don’t need it imo. To me, feminism is a women’s movement that sought equality between men and women. I think it (rightly) centres women’s experiences and issues, especially given that it is a movement borne of revolutionary women fighting for their issues. I think it’s important the feminism we consume is considerate of the differences affecting women’s experiences though and I feel that’s where the movement has sometimes been flawed throughout history. In terms of feminism that I’ve read and has taught me the most, I’d say Black feminism. My (unpopular) take is also that for men, the label is less important. The work is more important. I don’t assume that men can label themselves feminists because of my opinions on what feminism actually is. But I think we can and should label ourselves allies to the movement and support it and its efforts to make the world more equal for the sexes. "My gosh you've found a thread of mine when I used to be more thought provoking! What do you mean by consuming feminism? | |||
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"Rather than feminism we should concentrate on equality in general be that gender, disability, race, colour, religion and everything else that causes people grief So intersectional activism? Excellent. My feminism is intersectional.
Most people are reasonable about all forms of discrimination but a small, very small, percentage cause the problems "Hmm. I'm not sure about that. | |||
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"Rather than feminism we should concentrate on equality in general be that gender, disability, race, colour, religion and everything else that causes people grief" In an ideal world I as an individual would love to solve of these things. But I am only human. So I do focus on issues faced by women in the workplace. Because that's what I have experience of and can help put measures in place to combat them. That doesn't mean I don't do work in other areas of equality. | |||
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"Rather than feminism we should concentrate on equality in general be that gender, disability, race, colour, religion and everything else that causes people grief In an ideal world I as an individual would love to solve of these things. But I am only human. So I do focus on issues faced by women in the workplace. Because that's what I have experience of and can help put measures in place to combat them. That doesn't mean I don't do work in other areas of equality. " That's totally fine. No one can possibly campaign to solve all the world problems. You work in issues which are closer to your heart. There will be others who work on issues closer to their hearts. | |||
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"The fact that religions still exist and still peddle that women are inferior under the myth that women and men have separate realms, and religion still opposes feminism, proves that feminism is required. There are still areas such as health and finance where women not so much as lag behind men but have been forgotten. Not forgetting the rolling back of womens' rights in the US." I think that we can no longer just blame this on religion. There's plenty of secular misogyny | |||
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"I'm all for equality, the problem with some feminists though is they tend to outlaw men and put them down and that's ironic when you're standing for equality " How many of those radical feminists do you know Vs your bog standard ones? | |||
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"I'm all for equality, the problem with some feminists though is they tend to outlaw men and put them down and that's ironic when you're standing for equality How many of those radical feminists do you know Vs your bog standard ones? " Personally none as I wouldn't associate with them | |||
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"I'm all for equality, the problem with some feminists though is they tend to outlaw men and put them down and that's ironic when you're standing for equality How many of those radical feminists do you know Vs your bog standard ones? Personally none as I wouldn't associate with them " No I get that, you're not an idiot
But I see that these radicals are a real issue but I've never come across one in real life. Just wonder how common they are or is it just there are very few but they are really vocal? | |||
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"I'm all for equality, the problem with some feminists though is they tend to outlaw men and put them down and that's ironic when you're standing for equality How many of those radical feminists do you know Vs your bog standard ones? Personally none as I wouldn't associate with them No I get that, you're not an idiot
But I see that these radicals are a real issue but I've never come across one in real life. Just wonder how common they are or is it just there are very few but they are really vocal? "They're definitely vocal
It's the same with any group, there's always going to be good and bad unfortunately | |||
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"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist " all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
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Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you. "She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better. Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across. It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you. " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need "Firstly check your pronouns | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need "First of all, my pronouns are they/them, not she. Misgendering me isn’t really a good way to make your point. Second of all, My female superiority only extends to my own personal life- I surround myself with women, whether they be trans or cis, and AFAB people, as a way of making my life much better. My trauma with men has only made my female superiority stance stronger- I no longer wish to have men in my life and that’s perfectly okay. If a man didn’t want women in his life, I wouldn’t bat an eyelid. Third of all, I think you’re confused on what feminism was actually established as. Feminism, at least 1st and 2nd wave, as always been radical feminism. Feminism was diluted down by the 3rd and 4th wave as a way to make it more palatable for men as this was the only way they would listen to us; I choose not to live by these rules and instead align myself with the values of earlier feminists. Fourth- I’d love to know where I’ve disregarded the feelings and opinions of men. They can tell me their opinions all they want- I just don’t want to listen to them. That’s my choice and that should be respected- I shouldn’t have to listen to you just because you’re a man. Fifth- As a man, do you think it’s okay to tone police my feminism? You don’t get to tell me what is and isn’t feminism. Sixth- Remember when I was vocal about my rights and opinions on a thread and you made a sexist joke? Almost as if men like you give men a bad name | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you. " | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist " I just can't get on board with the inclusivity of everyone as long as your not male. I'm and will teach the kids all about "women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc" but to turn around and tell our daughter your superior to our sons after. That's just wrong in my eyes. I've lived the life of being told that a male child would have been preferable. Males inherit women do not. Feeling inferior due to my gender was horrible, and not one I'd ever subject my children to. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
First of all, my pronouns are they/them, not she. Misgendering me isn’t really a good way to make your point.
Second of all, My female superiority only extends to my own personal life- I surround myself with women, whether they be trans or cis, and AFAB people, as a way of making my life much better. My trauma with men has only made my female superiority stance stronger- I no longer wish to have men in my life and that’s perfectly okay. If a man didn’t want women in his life, I wouldn’t bat an eyelid.
Third of all, I think you’re confused on what feminism was actually established as. Feminism, at least 1st and 2nd wave, as always been radical feminism. Feminism was diluted down by the 3rd and 4th wave as a way to make it more palatable for men as this was the only way they would listen to us; I choose not to live by these rules and instead align myself with the values of earlier feminists.
Fourth- I’d love to know where I’ve disregarded the feelings and opinions of men. They can tell me their opinions all they want- I just don’t want to listen to them. That’s my choice and that should be respected- I shouldn’t have to listen to you just because you’re a man.
Fifth- As a man, do you think it’s okay to tone police my feminism? You don’t get to tell me what is and isn’t feminism.
Sixth- Remember when I was vocal about my rights and opinions on a thread and you made a sexist joke? Almost as if men like you give men a bad name "I'm disregarding everything you just said because I can and you're stubborn anyway. I will say if you use your head you could look back at that thread and then you would see and remember it was a sarcastic remark that you didn't understand because you don't know me and not a sexist one | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
First of all, my pronouns are they/them, not she. Misgendering me isn’t really a good way to make your point.
Second of all, My female superiority only extends to my own personal life- I surround myself with women, whether they be trans or cis, and AFAB people, as a way of making my life much better. My trauma with men has only made my female superiority stance stronger- I no longer wish to have men in my life and that’s perfectly okay. If a man didn’t want women in his life, I wouldn’t bat an eyelid.
Third of all, I think you’re confused on what feminism was actually established as. Feminism, at least 1st and 2nd wave, as always been radical feminism. Feminism was diluted down by the 3rd and 4th wave as a way to make it more palatable for men as this was the only way they would listen to us; I choose not to live by these rules and instead align myself with the values of earlier feminists.
Fourth- I’d love to know where I’ve disregarded the feelings and opinions of men. They can tell me their opinions all they want- I just don’t want to listen to them. That’s my choice and that should be respected- I shouldn’t have to listen to you just because you’re a man.
Fifth- As a man, do you think it’s okay to tone police my feminism? You don’t get to tell me what is and isn’t feminism.
Sixth- Remember when I was vocal about my rights and opinions on a thread and you made a sexist joke? Almost as if men like you give men a bad name
I'm disregarding everything you just said because I can and you're stubborn anyway.
I will say if you use your head you could look back at that thread and then you would see and remember it was a sarcastic remark that you didn't understand because you don't know me and not a sexist one "Am I stubborn or do you just not like AFAB people sticking up for themselves? Feel free to disregard it; like I said, I don’t care for men nor do I feel to need to pander to them. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need "Radical feminists don’t give feminists a bad name. Radical feminists have got shit done. And my feeling on this is although I don’t agree with it all, I love that they’ve got a point where they can be who they are and feel comfortable with that. Radical politics are divisive for sure but I think marginalised groups seeking to take power is understandable even if I don’t believe in it. It’s easy to dismiss when the power has always been in an individual’s hands. Also the complexity of this is that this expression, whilst you may not agree with it, is upsetting but doesn’t reaffirm or reproduce power relations which oppress or dominate men. I understand why you’re upset by it though, but I think what I know is that radical feminists have done their bit, they’ve earned their flowers and there’s a space for radicalism in feminism even if I don’t believe it should come in the form of gender superiority. But I do not see a problem with women that wish to for separation from men or that wish to avoid relationships with men. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
Radical feminists don’t give feminists a bad name. Radical feminists have got shit done.
And my feeling on this is although I don’t agree with it all, I love that they’ve got a point where they can be who they are and feel comfortable with that. Radical politics are divisive for sure but I think marginalised groups seeking to take power is understandable even if I don’t believe in it. It’s easy to dismiss when the power has always been in an individual’s hands.
Also the complexity of this is that this expression, whilst you may not agree with it, is upsetting but doesn’t reaffirm or reproduce power relations which oppress or dominate men.
I understand why you’re upset by it though, but I think what I know is that radical feminists have done their bit, they’ve earned their flowers and there’s a space for radicalism in feminism even if I don’t believe it should come in the form of gender superiority. But I do not see a problem with women that wish to for separation from men or that wish to avoid relationships with men. "Exactly this!
I think a lot of men are threatened by women who don’t centre their lives around men; years of compulsory heterosexuality is currently being unlearned by me, and it’s definitely liberating to have a life where I don’t focus on men.
I think it’s the same with the BLM movement; obviously, as a white person, I don’t want to overstep my boundaries; but I definitely do think some people are threatened by the mere fact of black people being treated equally; they think that if black people are treated equally, it means they are going to oppress white people, when that’s really not true at all. It’s so ridiculous to think that because one group suddenly has rights, they are going to take over everyone else.
In regards to feminism; men are scared of being treated the way they treat women. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
First of all, my pronouns are they/them, not she. Misgendering me isn’t really a good way to make your point.
Second of all, My female superiority only extends to my own personal life- I surround myself with women, whether they be trans or cis, and AFAB people, as a way of making my life much better. My trauma with men has only made my female superiority stance stronger- I no longer wish to have men in my life and that’s perfectly okay. If a man didn’t want women in his life, I wouldn’t bat an eyelid.
Third of all, I think you’re confused on what feminism was actually established as. Feminism, at least 1st and 2nd wave, as always been radical feminism. Feminism was diluted down by the 3rd and 4th wave as a way to make it more palatable for men as this was the only way they would listen to us; I choose not to live by these rules and instead align myself with the values of earlier feminists.
Fourth- I’d love to know where I’ve disregarded the feelings and opinions of men. They can tell me their opinions all they want- I just don’t want to listen to them. That’s my choice and that should be respected- I shouldn’t have to listen to you just because you’re a man.
Fifth- As a man, do you think it’s okay to tone police my feminism? You don’t get to tell me what is and isn’t feminism.
Sixth- Remember when I was vocal about my rights and opinions on a thread and you made a sexist joke? Almost as if men like you give men a bad name
I'm disregarding everything you just said because I can and you're stubborn anyway.
I will say if you use your head you could look back at that thread and then you would see and remember it was a sarcastic remark that you didn't understand because you don't know me and not a sexist one
Am I stubborn or do you just not like AFAB people sticking up for themselves?
Feel free to disregard it; like I said, I don’t care for men nor do I feel to need to pander to them. "I'm all for people sticking up for themselves, I'm not a snowflake. Also we can all see you don't care about them which is why I don't care for your views on others. | |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
| |||
Reply privately (closed, thread got too big) | |||
" In regards to feminism; men are scared of being treated the way they treat women. " This is the crux of it, I think. | |||
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" all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
Radical feminists don’t give feminists a bad name. Radical feminists have got shit done.
And my feeling on this is although I don’t agree with it all, I love that they’ve got a point where they can be who they are and feel comfortable with that. Radical politics are divisive for sure but I think marginalised groups seeking to take power is understandable even if I don’t believe in it. It’s easy to dismiss when the power has always been in an individual’s hands.
Also the complexity of this is that this expression, whilst you may not agree with it, is upsetting but doesn’t reaffirm or reproduce power relations which oppress or dominate men.
I understand why you’re upset by it though, but I think what I know is that radical feminists have done their bit, they’ve earned their flowers and there’s a space for radicalism in feminism even if I don’t believe it should come in the form of gender superiority. But I do not see a problem with women that wish to for separation from men or that wish to avoid relationships with men. "Everyone one should have who they want in their lives end of. People should have the people they love surrounding them, I don't think many would disagree. But you don't have to be radical to get shit done. I've worked for nearly a decade on getting my workplace a more female friendly place. And it's making a difference. Currently working on guidelines for females who have a miscarriage, as we don't have any currently. Ok it's not radical but I've stood on my feet for hours on end whilst miscarrying. And I'd rather nobody else would have to suffer that. It's not radical but it will make a difference to those in a similar situation. | |||
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"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
First of all, my pronouns are they/them, not she. Misgendering me isn’t really a good way to make your point.
Second of all, My female superiority only extends to my own personal life- I surround myself with women, whether they be trans or cis, and AFAB people, as a way of making my life much better. My trauma with men has only made my female superiority stance stronger- I no longer wish to have men in my life and that’s perfectly okay. If a man didn’t want women in his life, I wouldn’t bat an eyelid.
Third of all, I think you’re confused on what feminism was actually established as. Feminism, at least 1st and 2nd wave, as always been radical feminism. Feminism was diluted down by the 3rd and 4th wave as a way to make it more palatable for men as this was the only way they would listen to us; I choose not to live by these rules and instead align myself with the values of earlier feminists.
Fourth- I’d love to know where I’ve disregarded the feelings and opinions of men. They can tell me their opinions all they want- I just don’t want to listen to them. That’s my choice and that should be respected- I shouldn’t have to listen to you just because you’re a man.
Fifth- As a man, do you think it’s okay to tone police my feminism? You don’t get to tell me what is and isn’t feminism.
Sixth- Remember when I was vocal about my rights and opinions on a thread and you made a sexist joke? Almost as if men like you give men a bad name
I'm disregarding everything you just said because I can and you're stubborn anyway.
I will say if you use your head you could look back at that thread and then you would see and remember it was a sarcastic remark that you didn't understand because you don't know me and not a sexist one
Am I stubborn or do you just not like AFAB people sticking up for themselves?
Feel free to disregard it; like I said, I don’t care for men nor do I feel to need to pander to them.
I'm all for people sticking up for themselves, I'm not a snowflake.
Also we can all see you don't care about them which is why I don't care for your views on others. "You say you are all for people sticking up for themselves and yet you made a sexist joke when I DID stand up for myself | |||
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"Activists and radicals are essential. They force policy makers to make changes. Progressive policy change never happened because oppressed groups waited patiently with their hands up to ask for equal rights." I have to agree this is true. E.g. votes for women only coming into being after a radical campaign. Years of moderate campaigning did not produce the outcome. I often wonder what the 21st century would make of Mrs Pankhurst et.al., if the campaign was taking place today. | |||
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" all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
Radical feminists don’t give feminists a bad name. Radical feminists have got shit done.
And my feeling on this is although I don’t agree with it all, I love that they’ve got a point where they can be who they are and feel comfortable with that. Radical politics are divisive for sure but I think marginalised groups seeking to take power is understandable even if I don’t believe in it. It’s easy to dismiss when the power has always been in an individual’s hands.
Also the complexity of this is that this expression, whilst you may not agree with it, is upsetting but doesn’t reaffirm or reproduce power relations which oppress or dominate men.
I understand why you’re upset by it though, but I think what I know is that radical feminists have done their bit, they’ve earned their flowers and there’s a space for radicalism in feminism even if I don’t believe it should come in the form of gender superiority. But I do not see a problem with women that wish to for separation from men or that wish to avoid relationships with men.
Exactly this!
I think a lot of men are threatened by women who don’t centre their lives around men; years of compulsory heterosexuality is currently being unlearned by me, and it’s definitely liberating to have a life where I don’t focus on men.
I think it’s the same with the BLM movement; obviously, as a white person, I don’t want to overstep my boundaries; but I definitely do think some people are threatened by the mere fact of black people being treated equally; they think that if black people are treated equally, it means they are going to oppress white people, when that’s really not true at all. It’s so ridiculous to think that because one group suddenly has rights, they are going to take over everyone else.
In regards to feminism; men are scared of being treated the way they treat women. "I do think we have made it so that the goal for marginalised groups must be to live harmoniously alongside oppressors or people that have oppressed/ dominated them. And I personally think that it is fair if people in those groups do not wish for that and wish for a separate life- it’s a trauma response and a protective one and I think let people do what they need to to protect themselves. With race it’s similar. I’ve been at points in my life where (with the exception of my partner) I have surrounded myself with only other Black people or other people racialised as not white and that was purely a response to trauma and for safety. I personally worked beyond that but plenty of Black radical organisers throughout history have advocated for Black separation and whilst I may not agree with it, it’s certainly more complex than I think people make out sometimes. One thing I do not agree with and I see it a lot with feminism and any form of Black resistance to racism is when people that belong to a dominant group tell you how to organise successfully or what you need to do in order to gain their support. Supporting, and by supporting j mean working, resistance to oppression should not be conditional in my opinion. That’s problematic. Anyway, as I said, just because I don’t believe in female supremacy (though from your follow up I understand more what you mean) I still think there’s room for you in feminism and it’s not for me or another man to police that. | |||
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" all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
Radical feminists don’t give feminists a bad name. Radical feminists have got shit done.
And my feeling on this is although I don’t agree with it all, I love that they’ve got a point where they can be who they are and feel comfortable with that. Radical politics are divisive for sure but I think marginalised groups seeking to take power is understandable even if I don’t believe in it. It’s easy to dismiss when the power has always been in an individual’s hands.
Also the complexity of this is that this expression, whilst you may not agree with it, is upsetting but doesn’t reaffirm or reproduce power relations which oppress or dominate men.
I understand why you’re upset by it though, but I think what I know is that radical feminists have done their bit, they’ve earned their flowers and there’s a space for radicalism in feminism even if I don’t believe it should come in the form of gender superiority. But I do not see a problem with women that wish to for separation from men or that wish to avoid relationships with men.
Everyone one should have who they want in their lives end of. People should have the people they love surrounding them, I don't think many would disagree.
But you don't have to be radical to get shit done. I've worked for nearly a decade on getting my workplace a more female friendly place. And it's making a difference. Currently working on guidelines for females who have a miscarriage, as we don't have any currently. Ok it's not radical but I've stood on my feet for hours on end whilst miscarrying. And I'd rather nobody else would have to suffer that. It's not radical but it will make a difference to those in a similar situation.
"Definitely; and I commend you for doing such things
I think I’m more radical in the sense that I’m outspoken and not afraid about it lol; being a radical feminist is also a spectrum so I’m definitely not as radical as other radical feminists (I’ve said radical too many times oops)
That being said; both radical and non-radical feminists are wonderful people and I hope we can all continue our intersectional feminism in a way that benefits us all | |||
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" Everyone one should have who they want in their lives end of. People should have the people they love surrounding them, I don't think many would disagree. But you don't have to be radical to get shit done. I've worked for nearly a decade on getting my workplace a more female friendly place. And it's making a difference. Currently working on guidelines for females who have a miscarriage, as we don't have any currently. Ok it's not radical but I've stood on my feet for hours on end whilst miscarrying. And I'd rather nobody else would have to suffer that. It's not radical but it will make a difference to those in a similar situation. " I think the work you do is incredibly important and thank you for it. For me though, for change, and by change I mean equality, to come about, you need radical, revolutionary action. And I think throughout history not necessarily today, what’s got us to where we are is revolutionaries and radical people that have challenged oppressive structures and institutions. That’s true of feminism in my understanding but obviously not experience and CERTAINLY true of Black resistance to racism. I believe many other causes too. So radicalism has got shit done. And I think there’s a space for radicals in resistance movements. | |||
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"I’m a trans inclusive radical feminist; I’m very vocal about women’s rights, sex workers rights, trans rights, gay rights etc; im also very outspoken about how I truly do not give one single care for men; I am not here to entertain men. I’m very unapologetic about my need to not have men in my life, unless they are related to me; men will call it misandry and I remind myself that misandry hurts men’s feelings; misogyny kills women. Ironically, I owned an Instagram account dedicating to discussing mens issues from 2017-2022. As a feminist, the amount of hate I got FROM MEN was ridiculous. I made the space as a way to talk about mens issues without taking up women’s spaces: and people just seemed to be angry about it? I stopped doing it earlier this year for the sake of my health and now just focus on mental health advocacy and recovery. I have no shame in being a feminist: feminism is still needed in this world because some men still believe women having rights means theirs are being taken away. Just look at what’s happening in America with abortion; now think about all those third world countries where women don’t even have a voice. I feel lucky to live in the U.K. where my life isn’t solely devoted to fighting for my rights as an AFAB person; that being said, I’m still a vehement radical feminist. I have no problem shouting about how I believe in female superiority (maybe that’s the lesbianism talking) and how I don’t need or want men in my life; I’m also very vocal about the fact that I don’t care if it offends men. There’s a long way to go; I feel lucky to live in the 21st century as a young femme-presenting non-binary person as more opportunities are given to me; I’ve also experienced tons of misogyny in my life that only made my feminism more radical. TLDR; yes feminism is still needed- from a radical trans inclusive feminist all is this. You’re a beautiful human. Thank you.
She's not though, she talks about female superiority while claiming to be part of a group that was established for equality not to be above and think they're better.
Disregards feelings and opinions of men while wanting to voice and get her own across.
It's so called feminists like this that give them a bad face unfortunately and the kind they really don't need
First of all, my pronouns are they/them, not she. Misgendering me isn’t really a good way to make your point.
Second of all, My female superiority only extends to my own personal life- I surround myself with women, whether they be trans or cis, and AFAB people, as a way of making my life much better. My trauma with men has only made my female superiority stance stronger- I no longer wish to have men in my life and that’s perfectly okay. If a man didn’t want women in his life, I wouldn’t bat an eyelid.
Third of all, I think you’re confused on what feminism was actually established as. Feminism, at least 1st and 2nd wave, as always been radical feminism. Feminism was diluted down by the 3rd and 4th wave as a way to make it more palatable for men as this was the only way they would listen to us; I choose not to live by these rules and instead align myself with the values of earlier feminists.
Fourth- I’d love to know where I’ve disregarded the feelings and opinions of men. They can tell me their opinions all they want- I just don’t want to listen to them. That’s my choice and that should be respected- I shouldn’t have to listen to you just because you’re a man.
Fifth- As a man, do you think it’s okay to tone police my feminism? You don’t get to tell me what is and isn’t feminism.
Sixth- Remember when I was vocal about my rights and opinions on a thread and you made a sexist joke? Almost as if men like you give men a bad name
I'm disregarding everything you just said because I can and you're stubborn anyway.
I will say if you use your head you could look back at that thread and then you would see and remember it was a sarcastic remark that you didn't understand because you don't know me and not a sexist one
Am I stubborn or do you just not like AFAB people sticking up for themselves?
Feel free to disregard it; like I said, I don’t care for men nor do I feel to need to pander to them.
I'm all for people sticking up for themselves, I'm not a snowflake.
Also we can all see you don't care about them which is why I don't care for your views on others.
You say you are all for people sticking up for themselves and yet you made a sexist joke when I DID stand up for myself "I'm all for people standing up for themselves if they aren't doing while trying to put others down and completely disregarding them. Also again, you need to go back and read the thread and get your facts straight because again, it wasn't a sexist joke | |||
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"Activists and radicals are essential. They force policy makers to make changes. Progressive policy change never happened because oppressed groups waited patiently with their hands up to ask for equal rights." That part. But they still want us to be patient and wait our turn. | |||
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" Everyone one should have who they want in their lives end of. People should have the people they love surrounding them, I don't think many would disagree. But you don't have to be radical to get shit done. I've worked for nearly a decade on getting my workplace a more female friendly place. And it's making a difference. Currently working on guidelines for females who have a miscarriage, as we don't have any currently. Ok it's not radical but I've stood on my feet for hours on end whilst miscarrying. And I'd rather nobody else would have to suffer that. It's not radical but it will make a difference to those in a similar situation. I think the work you do is incredibly important and thank you for it. For me though, for change, and by change I mean equality, to come about, you need radical, revolutionary action. And I think throughout history not necessarily today, what’s got us to where we are is revolutionaries and radical people that have challenged oppressive structures and institutions. That’s true of feminism in my understanding but obviously not experience and CERTAINLY true of Black resistance to racism. I believe many other causes too. So radicalism has got shit done. And I think there’s a space for radicals in resistance movements. " We need layers of action in lots of different directions. I'm not a radical (in the sense of excluding men from my life or otherwise) but I believe that they have a place, and I support them as allies | |||
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"Activists and radicals are essential. They force policy makers to make changes. Progressive policy change never happened because oppressed groups waited patiently with their hands up to ask for equal rights. That part. But they still want us to be patient and wait our turn. " Because all they actually want is for us to shut up and go away. | |||
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" Everyone one should have who they want in their lives end of. People should have the people they love surrounding them, I don't think many would disagree. But you don't have to be radical to get shit done. I've worked for nearly a decade on getting my workplace a more female friendly place. And it's making a difference. Currently working on guidelines for females who have a miscarriage, as we don't have any currently. Ok it's not radical but I've stood on my feet for hours on end whilst miscarrying. And I'd rather nobody else would have to suffer that. It's not radical but it will make a difference to those in a similar situation. I think the work you do is incredibly important and thank you for it. For me though, for change, and by change I mean equality, to come about, you need radical, revolutionary action. And I think throughout history not necessarily today, what’s got us to where we are is revolutionaries and radical people that have challenged oppressive structures and institutions. That’s true of feminism in my understanding but obviously not experience and CERTAINLY true of Black resistance to racism. I believe many other causes too. So radicalism has got shit done. And I think there’s a space for radicals in resistance movements. We need layers of action in lots of different directions. I'm not a radical (in the sense of excluding men from my life or otherwise) but I believe that they have a place, and I support them as allies " You couldn’t get rid of me from your life
Don’t worry, I couldn’t you either
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" Everyone one should have who they want in their lives end of. People should have the people they love surrounding them, I don't think many would disagree. But you don't have to be radical to get shit done. I've worked for nearly a decade on getting my workplace a more female friendly place. And it's making a difference. Currently working on guidelines for females who have a miscarriage, as we don't have any currently. Ok it's not radical but I've stood on my feet for hours on end whilst miscarrying. And I'd rather nobody else would have to suffer that. It's not radical but it will make a difference to those in a similar situation. I think the work you do is incredibly important and thank you for it. For me though, for change, and by change I mean equality, to come about, you need radical, revolutionary action. And I think throughout history not necessarily today, what’s got us to where we are is revolutionaries and radical people that have challenged oppressive structures and institutions. That’s true of feminism in my understanding but obviously not experience and CERTAINLY true of Black resistance to racism. I believe many other causes too. So radicalism has got shit done. And I think there’s a space for radicals in resistance movements. We need layers of action in lots of different directions. I'm not a radical (in the sense of excluding men from my life or otherwise) but I believe that they have a place, and I support them as allies You couldn’t get rid of me from your life
Don’t worry, I couldn’t you either
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" Everyone one should have who they want in their lives end of. People should have the people they love surrounding them, I don't think many would disagree. But you don't have to be radical to get shit done. I've worked for nearly a decade on getting my workplace a more female friendly place. And it's making a difference. Currently working on guidelines for females who have a miscarriage, as we don't have any currently. Ok it's not radical but I've stood on my feet for hours on end whilst miscarrying. And I'd rather nobody else would have to suffer that. It's not radical but it will make a difference to those in a similar situation. I think the work you do is incredibly important and thank you for it. For me though, for change, and by change I mean equality, to come about, you need radical, revolutionary action. And I think throughout history not necessarily today, what’s got us to where we are is revolutionaries and radical people that have challenged oppressive structures and institutions. That’s true of feminism in my understanding but obviously not experience and CERTAINLY true of Black resistance to racism. I believe many other causes too. So radicalism has got shit done. And I think there’s a space for radicals in resistance movements. " Why does it need to be radical action though? The things I've done have real world benefits. The policies I've helped bring about are now used in other institutions around the country. Sometimes when we talk and are vocal what changes are we actually bringing about to people? Like you said things need to change to being about equality. Sometimes actions are needed not just talk, policy changes at a local level, which can then be used as evidence to change things on a national level. Not necessarily radical but definitely is one way of getting change. We all want equality different people do it in different ways. | |||
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"I'm aware the comments are getting quite long, so I haven't quoted. I'm not a radical feminist. I can see their contribution has been and continues to be very valuable. So I do appreciate Annie's perspective and views here about feminism. But I don't see what point is served by going back to a thread some weeks ago to score points against a man. I defended you on that thread, annie. I agreed with you but I also said that PD has shown himself to be a good guy here. It just isn't necessary to attack him. And I do care about the feelings and issues that men have because they're half of the population. They're my family, my friends, my lovers. I don't want a feminism for myself that says I only care about half the world. " Thank you and yes I agree that everyone should be equal no matter their gender or race | |||
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