FabSwingers.com > Forums > The Lounge > Sorry, if this has been discussed but..
Sorry, if this has been discussed but..
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?"
I wouldn't use the word coloured. |
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This is akin to people complaining about an able bodied actor playing Stephen Hawking or a straight actor playing a gay role or vice versa
It's acting ... nothing more
Sorry you can't play the pope ... you're protestant .. etc etc etc |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
I wouldn't use the word coloured."
I genuinely don't know what the appropriate word to use is but I'm just repeating the word used by Google, if it's inappropriate I'm really sorry. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I suppose as long the message and point of the program gets its point across, the race of any of the actors shouldn't matter.
On the other hand, if it is a factual program and not a dramatisation, then the makers should try their best to make everything as historically accurate as possible. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"This is akin to people complaining about an able bodied actor playing Stephen Hawking or a straight actor playing a gay role or vice versa
It's acting ... nothing more
Sorry you can't play the pope ... you're protestant .. etc etc etc"
So, please forgive me if I'm wrong on this, you'd think it's okay if a white actor played a documentary on Martin Luther King? |
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Just watched David Copperfield with Dev Patel and a cast that has quite a few people of different nationalities and races. Due to the film being great fun, well acted and glorious to look at, you soon forget that there’s brown or Asian people playing traditionally white roles. Or I certainly did.
It’s acting no more no less I don’t care that the actor playing the role doesn’t look like the person they’re portraying. If it’s a good retelling of the story, that’ll do me  |
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"This is akin to people complaining about an able bodied actor playing Stephen Hawking or a straight actor playing a gay role or vice versa
It's acting ... nothing more
Sorry you can't play the pope ... you're protestant .. etc etc etc
So, please forgive me if I'm wrong on this, you'd think it's okay if a white actor played a documentary on Martin Luther King?"
It is down to the director and their casting staff surely ... they want to find the best person to play the role and get the maximum audience |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Anne Boleyn was white so I don't understand why a black actress would play the role tbh.
Would a white actor play say Martin Luther King in a film or drama role ? |
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"Anne Boleyn was white so I don't understand why a black actress would play the role tbh.
Would a white actor play say Martin Luther King in a film or drama role ?"
I'm sorry but if they are portraying a person they should at least have them look a bit like them  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Anne Boleyn was white so I don't understand why a black actress would play the role tbh.
Would a white actor play say Martin Luther King in a film or drama role ?
I'm sorry but if they are portraying a person they should at least have them look a bit like them "
This is where my view point is, Anne Boleyn was a factual and historical person who was white. |
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Is it historically factual drama though, from what I can see it’s a new twist in the last months of her life more a physiological thriller. Is it actually set in the Tudor times or is it being modernised for today, like they’ve done with Hamlet, Romeo & Juliet (yes I know they are fictional characters).
To twist this around Jesus is portrayed by many as white but he was more than likely to have not been.
Wait for the programme and see, personally it doesn’t bother me but I know it will upset some for various reasons. C5 has always been controversial and well it’s got everyone talking about a programme that isn’t even here yet. |
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"Anne Boleyn was white so I don't understand why a black actress would play the role tbh.
Would a white actor play say Martin Luther King in a film or drama role ?
I'm sorry but if they are portraying a person they should at least have them look a bit like them
This is where my view point is, Anne Boleyn was a factual and historical person who was white."
I think if a white person was cast as !Martin Luther King there would be uproar.
My personal opinion is that it shouldn't matter what colour or gender a person is, as long as they can convince you for a period of time that they are that person.
When it comes to historical accuracy quite a lot of what's presented as fact especially surrounding Ann Boleyn is shrouded and obscured by the propaganda of the time anyway. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"This is akin to people complaining about an able bodied actor playing Stephen Hawking or a straight actor playing a gay role or vice versa
It's acting ... nothing more
Sorry you can't play the pope ... you're protestant .. etc etc etc
So, please forgive me if I'm wrong on this, you'd think it's okay if a white actor played a documentary on Martin Luther King?"
Julia Roberts |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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ian fleming based James Bond on a white russian spy.
i dont think id would matter if the next James Bond was black the only thing that matters with acting is being right for the role and doing it well. |
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I guess it depends upon the context of the film / programme .. check out the Noughts and Crosses novel series (and BBC drama series) by Malorie Blackman as a concept and apply that concept to historical figures ... what then? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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It wouldn't have made any difference if Anne Boleyn was a person of colour but I think history may have read a little differently if Martin Luther King wasn't. |
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"It wouldn't have made any difference if Anne Boleyn was a person of colour but I think history may have read a little differently if Martin Luther King wasn't. "
Just actors, playing a part, why should we care? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It wouldn't have made any difference if Anne Boleyn was a person of colour but I think history may have read a little differently if Martin Luther King wasn't.
Just actors, playing a part, why should we care?"
It was a comment on the real person not the actors |
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"Im looking forward to seeing Jason Statham's Martin Luther king jr...
Or Denzil Washington playing Ed Milliband in the upcoming political drama Laboured "
Mmmm, i can't wait for the bacon roll scene...
 |
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"It wouldn't have made any difference if Anne Boleyn was a person of colour but I think history may have read a little differently if Martin Luther King wasn't.
Just actors, playing a part, why should we care?
It was a comment on the real person not the actors"
So, we shouldn't care. Cool. |
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"It wouldn't have made any difference if Anne Boleyn was a person of colour but I think history may have read a little differently if Martin Luther King wasn't.
Just actors, playing a part, why should we care?
It was a comment on the real person not the actors"
Henry the eighth would not have married a black woman. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"It wouldn't have made any difference if Anne Boleyn was a person of colour but I think history may have read a little differently if Martin Luther King wasn't.
Just actors, playing a part, why should we care?
It was a comment on the real person not the actors
Henry the eighth would not have married a black woman. "
But now looking back her colour isn't relevant to the story. The fact that MLK was black is relevant |
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"It wouldn't have made any difference if Anne Boleyn was a person of colour but I think history may have read a little differently if Martin Luther King wasn't.
Just actors, playing a part, why should we care?
It was a comment on the real person not the actors
Henry the eighth would not have married a black woman.
But now looking back her colour isn't relevant to the story. The fact that MLK was black is relevant "
If Ann Boleyn had been black there wouldn't be a story but I take your point. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Wow this is funny.....
I lived in Japan when the movie “ Memoirs of Geisha “ came out in 2005.....
The outrage by the Japanese people that a Chinese actress played a Japanese role was tantamount to a act of war....
I thought to myself, Damn I need to get back to America.... these people are crazy.,,,,. |
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"Anne Boleyn was white so I don't understand why a black actress would play the role tbh.
Would a white actor play say Martin Luther King in a film or drama role ?
I'm sorry but if they are portraying a person they should at least have them look a bit like them "
I think dwayne Johnson would be amazing as Anne boleyn... |
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Should ethnic minority actors be excluded from all historical roles, including many Shakespearian ones? I've love the Royal Shakespeare Company's actors, whatever their race, for example.
We have an historical perspective that's limited. If a character's traits were the full subject of a piece, there might be a little influence on the choice of actor.
I'm inclined against limiting other's experiences, including the audiences'. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
I wouldn't use the word coloured."
..
I would.
I was taught at school/ home to say coloured as the polite word for black persons or people of colour..Black was deemed offensive,so today for me 50 years on "Black" to me still sounds like people being rude...
Re:OPs question,
Would we have Denzil Washington playing Adolf Hitler just because he's an excellent actor ? |
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Exactly this. A terrific movie where the colour of the actors’ skin was totally irrelevant.
"Just watched David Copperfield with Dev Patel and a cast that has quite a few people of different nationalities and races. Due to the film being great fun, well acted and glorious to look at, you soon forget that there’s brown or Asian people playing traditionally white roles. Or I certainly did.
It’s acting no more no less I don’t care that the actor playing the role doesn’t look like the person they’re portraying. If it’s a good retelling of the story, that’ll do me "
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Coming soon to channel five..
The story of Rosie Parkes..starring Kate Winslet... probably  "
With all due respect, that's exactly my point, if that movie was made with her in the title role how much uproar would there be?
Rightly so though! |
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By *hilloutMan
over a year ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
Historical context is important and undeniable. If she was a white woman she should be played by an actor that fits the part. Same as already mentioned, i'd find it inconceivable that a light skinned actor would portray MLK, or Malcom X, Mohammad Ali or Barack Obama for example.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Historical context is important and undeniable. If she was a white woman she should be played by an actor that fits the part. Same as already mentioned, i'd find it inconceivable that a light skinned actor would portray MLK, or Malcom X, Mohammad Ali or Barack Obama for example.
"
Thank you, sir |
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This isn’t really an issue in the theatre world as much as on TV.
In theatre it’s accepted that the audience are able suspend their belief. A female Hamlet? Sure. A black female Richard II? Absolutely. The majority of the Hamilton cast? The ticket sales would indicate it’s fine.
I believe it wouldn’t work in the same manner for Parks, MLK et al where race is an important factor in the story.
|
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"Historical context is important and undeniable. If she was a white woman she should be played by an actor that fits the part. Same as already mentioned, i'd find it inconceivable that a light skinned actor would portray MLK, or Malcom X, Mohammad Ali or Barack Obama for example.
"
I do understand both sides of the argument here. However, a couple of points made before raise interesting points. The programme in question is a dramatisation of the last weeks of her life, being her being accused and found guilty of high treason on the grounds of adultery, inc3st, and plotting to kill the King, not because of the colour of her skin. It is not meant to be a historical documentary.
For the black characters being talked about, Malcolm X, MLK etc ... their stories are wholly driven by the colour of their skin so,yes,it would be met badly if any film about them has the lead played by a non-black actor.
|
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"This isn’t really an issue in the theatre world as much as on TV.
In theatre it’s accepted that the audience are able suspend their belief. A female Hamlet? Sure. A black female Richard II? Absolutely. The majority of the Hamilton cast? The ticket sales would indicate it’s fine.
I believe it wouldn’t work in the same manner for Parks, MLK et al where race is an important factor in the story.
"
I'm desperately uninterested in getting into this, in general terms, but medium matters for this sort of thing. I'm not entirely sure why. (Also the relationship between history and popular historical interpretation is often pretty fucking tenuous)
Although my intro to theatre proper was reinterpretation of King Lear (feminist, queer, race, all sorts of other stuff it was school I forget), so... theatre gets away with stuff. That kind of intellectual stretch is something I appreciate.
Obviously majority being played by minority is more acceptable than the other way around (although on disability and trans stuff other way around happens  ), particularly when the minority issue is a key part of the story. |
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By *hilloutMan
over a year ago
All over the place! Northwesr, , Southwest |
"Historical context is important and undeniable. If she was a white woman she should be played by an actor that fits the part. Same as already mentioned, i'd find it inconceivable that a light skinned actor would portray MLK, or Malcom X, Mohammad Ali or Barack Obama for example.
I do understand both sides of the argument here. However, a couple of points made before raise interesting points. The programme in question is a dramatisation of the last weeks of her life, being her being accused and found guilty of high treason on the grounds of adultery, inc3st, and plotting to kill the King, not because of the colour of her skin. It is not meant to be a historical documentary.
For the black characters being talked about, Malcolm X, MLK etc ... their stories are wholly driven by the colour of their skin so,yes,it would be met badly if any film about them has the lead played by a non-black actor.
"
I think many would find it condescending that the main defining feature of those people was their skin colour and not who they were or what they accomplished. Would the same be said of Gandhi or Mao Tse Tung, or Che Gue Vara or any other non "white" figure?
If the roles were reversed and a white actor played any of the previously named historical figures, the cries of racism and "cultural appropriation" would be immediate.
Race and skin colour are part of their identity as a historical figure. You start to ignore that simple truth because it's woke or trendy, then you create needless divisions and resentment in society. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"This isn’t really an issue in the theatre world as much as on TV.
In theatre it’s accepted that the audience are able suspend their belief. A female Hamlet? Sure. A black female Richard II? Absolutely. The majority of the Hamilton cast? The ticket sales would indicate it’s fine.
I believe it wouldn’t work in the same manner for Parks, MLK et al where race is an important factor in the story.
"
With all due respect, so it's okay for a coloured/black actress playing Anne Boleyn but not a white actress playing Parks? |
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"I suppose as long the message and point of the program gets its point across, the race of any of the actors shouldn't matter.
On the other hand, if it is a factual program and not a dramatisation, then the makers should try their best to make everything as historically accurate as possible."
Very well put it's a bit like making a documentary on slavery using Caucasian actors the treatment would still be apparent. |
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"Oh hear we go the whole black vs white thing. Why we even discussing it ?? Does it really matter its only a big deal if people make it a big deal "
I mean, my comment is on the acceptable bounds of interpretation in literary media and the suspension of disbelief... |
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By *mmabluTV/TS
over a year ago
upton wirral |
"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?"
I think it is wrong and it sickens me.
It is more likely to cause problems than cure any.I bet they would not show Barack Obama as white |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh hear we go the whole black vs white thing. Why we even discussing it ?? Does it really matter its only a big deal if people make it a big deal "
we are discussing it because the OP made a good 'context/ portrayal point. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?I think it is wrong and it sickens me.
It is more likely to cause problems than cure any.I bet they would not show Barack Obama as white"
That's my opinion, I agree with you. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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A few of the people on this thread have posted comments along the lines before of it doesn't matter what colour someone's skin is it should be the best person gets the job. I guess that doesn't apply to acting then? |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?"
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
|
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
"
Mmhm. Blonde haired blue eyed American Jesus. Shrug. |
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By *mmmMaybeCouple
over a year ago
West Wales |
"One name
Ben Kingsley
Case closed,
your welcome
S
Ben Kingsley is of Indian descent on his father's side.so although fairer skinned...etc etc "
Any idea how far back, I mean go far enough back & many of us are French but I’m not using it as a reason to play Napoleon in the next film.
;-)
S |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
"
Why stop there? Why not have a wheelchair bound paraplegic playing gymnast A in the story of abuse in American gymnastics.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh hear we go the whole black vs white thing. Why we even discussing it ?? Does it really matter its only a big deal if people make it a big deal
I mean, my comment is on the acceptable bounds of interpretation in literary media and the suspension of disbelief..."
Come again luv |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh hear we go the whole black vs white thing. Why we even discussing it ?? Does it really matter its only a big deal if people make it a big deal
we are discussing it because the OP made a good 'context/ portrayal point."
There's better things to talk about |
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"Oh hear we go the whole black vs white thing. Why we even discussing it ?? Does it really matter its only a big deal if people make it a big deal
I mean, my comment is on the acceptable bounds of interpretation in literary media and the suspension of disbelief...
Come again luv "
My comment was on... let's say the way art is made and interpreted. Not on race |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh hear we go the whole black vs white thing. Why we even discussing it ?? Does it really matter its only a big deal if people make it a big deal
I mean, my comment is on the acceptable bounds of interpretation in literary media and the suspension of disbelief...
Come again luv
My comment was on... let's say the way art is made and interpreted. Not on race "
There is no race , we are human that is the only race there is |
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"Oh hear we go the whole black vs white thing. Why we even discussing it ?? Does it really matter its only a big deal if people make it a big deal
I mean, my comment is on the acceptable bounds of interpretation in literary media and the suspension of disbelief...
Come again luv
My comment was on... let's say the way art is made and interpreted. Not on race
There is no race , we are human that is the only race there is "
Ok.
My comment was not on race, perceived or actual. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
Mmhm. Blonde haired blue eyed American Jesus. Shrug."
As son of god, Jesus could be whatever he damn well pleased
Now Whoopi Goldberg playing god in a Muppets movie and Santa in another  |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
Mmhm. Blonde haired blue eyed American Jesus. Shrug.
As son of god, Jesus could be whatever he damn well pleased
Now Whoopi Goldberg playing god in a Muppets movie and Santa in another "
To the extent that we consider the Bible an historical document (lol), I... think they might have mentioned that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Oh hear we go the whole black vs white thing. Why we even discussing it ?? Does it really matter its only a big deal if people make it a big deal
we are discussing it because the OP made a good 'context/ portrayal point.
There's better things to talk about "
And worse- that's why it's called a ',forum' |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
Mmhm. Blonde haired blue eyed American Jesus. Shrug.
As son of god, Jesus could be whatever he damn well pleased
Now Whoopi Goldberg playing god in a Muppets movie and Santa in another
To the extent that we consider the Bible an historical document (lol), I... think they might have mentioned that."
The bible is clearly nonsese but Jesus was a real man. No son of god, just a spiritual teacher who was later proclaimed by others to be the son of god and protrayed by westerners as a white man |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Anne Boleyn was white so I don't understand why a black actress would play the role tbh.
Would a white actor play say Martin Luther King in a film or drama role ?
I'm with you on this"
I think the biggest issue is that there isn't as many roles for black actors. |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
Mmhm. Blonde haired blue eyed American Jesus. Shrug.
As son of god, Jesus could be whatever he damn well pleased
Now Whoopi Goldberg playing god in a Muppets movie and Santa in another
To the extent that we consider the Bible an historical document (lol), I... think they might have mentioned that.
The bible is clearly nonsese but Jesus was a real man. No son of god, just a spiritual teacher who was later proclaimed by others to be the son of god and protrayed by westerners as a white man"
Yes.
Was there a man Jesus, son of Joseph, who made apocalyptic religious claims in ancient Judea? Almost certainly. The rest... ehhhh. |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
I wouldn't use the word coloured.
I genuinely don't know what the appropriate word to use is but I'm just repeating the word used by Google, if it's inappropriate I'm really sorry."
Black actor
Mixed race actor
White actor
Asian actor......
It's not really something that needs specifying.
For the point you are raising I get it. |
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"Anne Boleyn was white so I don't understand why a black actress would play the role tbh.
Would a white actor play say Martin Luther King in a film or drama role ?
I'm with you on this
I think the biggest issue is that there isn't as many roles for black actors. "
I get that, especially roles of substance |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
Why stop there? Why not have a wheelchair bound paraplegic playing gymnast A in the story of abuse in American gymnastics.
"
I think we prefer the term wheelchair user. We're only bound to it if specifically requested (silk rope preferred). Even my mates with the most profound disability get off their bums to sleep in a regular bed
I have used bondage tape to keep one teammate in his chair for a basketball game though (we've also used gaffer tape and sellotape before now ). Oh, the pre Covid days  |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
Why stop there? Why not have a wheelchair bound paraplegic playing gymnast A in the story of abuse in American gymnastics.
I think we prefer the term wheelchair user. We're only bound to it if specifically requested (silk rope preferred). Even my mates with the most profound disability get off their bums to sleep in a regular bed
I have used bondage tape to keep one teammate in his chair for a basketball game though (we've also used gaffer tape and sellotape before now ). Oh, the pre Covid days "
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
Mmhm. Blonde haired blue eyed American Jesus. Shrug.
As son of god, Jesus could be whatever he damn well pleased
Now Whoopi Goldberg playing god in a Muppets movie and Santa in another
To the extent that we consider the Bible an historical document (lol), I... think they might have mentioned that.
The bible is clearly nonsese but Jesus was a real man. No son of god, just a spiritual teacher who was later proclaimed by others to be the son of god and protrayed by westerners as a white man
Yes.
Was there a man Jesus, son of Joseph, who made apocalyptic religious claims in ancient Judea? Almost certainly. The rest... ehhhh."
.
Oohh that's another good thread subject in itself...
Tons of 'was Jesus a real person '
Sites on t'internet.
I seem to remember one of the best pieces of evidence was an unearthed Roman tax document which said in essence ' go find that Jesus of Nazareth bloke everyone's going on about..we might get some Dosh from him'( I don't think they were the exact words mind)! |
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"... channel 5 is apparently going to make a programme about Henry VIII's second wife, Anne Boleyn, with a coloured actress in the leading role?
I strongly believe racism in any form is abhorrent with no caveats whatsoever but she was a factual person and definitely white so, what do you think?
Well pretty much all western churches portray Jesus as white when he was in fact a Syrian and would have been darked skined.
Nothing new about people of differnt colours and descents playing roles of other colours and decent.
Mmhm. Blonde haired blue eyed American Jesus. Shrug.
As son of god, Jesus could be whatever he damn well pleased
Now Whoopi Goldberg playing god in a Muppets movie and Santa in another
To the extent that we consider the Bible an historical document (lol), I... think they might have mentioned that.
The bible is clearly nonsese but Jesus was a real man. No son of god, just a spiritual teacher who was later proclaimed by others to be the son of god and protrayed by westerners as a white man
Yes.
Was there a man Jesus, son of Joseph, who made apocalyptic religious claims in ancient Judea? Almost certainly. The rest... ehhhh..
Oohh that's another good thread subject in itself...
Tons of 'was Jesus a real person '
Sites on t'internet.
I seem to remember one of the best pieces of evidence was an unearthed Roman tax document which said in essence ' go find that Jesus of Nazareth bloke everyone's going on about..we might get some Dosh from him'( I don't think they were the exact words mind)!"
It's both interesting and not.
The bare facts, Jesus son of Joseph, a carpenter, who roamed Judea preaching about the end of the world... It's a bit like asking if there's a Tom Jones in Wales who watches rugby and works at Tesco. Almost certainly true. (the rest, evidence is bloody thin and the evidentiary trail has been tampered with from the beginning, essentially)
What are the images we create of Jesus, how has that changed over time... Historical reception and literary interpretation. Endlessly fascinating subjects. Complicated |
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"
It's both interesting and not.
The bare facts, Jesus son of Joseph, a carpenter, who roamed Judea preaching about the end of the world... It's a bit like asking if there's a Tom Jones in Wales who watches rugby and works at Tesco. Almost certainly true. (the rest, evidence is bloody thin and the evidentiary trail has been tampered with from the beginning, essentially)
What are the images we create of Jesus, how has that changed over time... Historical reception and literary interpretation. Endlessly fascinating subjects. Complicated "
He's not the son of God, he's a very naughty boy  |
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"
It's both interesting and not.
The bare facts, Jesus son of Joseph, a carpenter, who roamed Judea preaching about the end of the world... It's a bit like asking if there's a Tom Jones in Wales who watches rugby and works at Tesco. Almost certainly true. (the rest, evidence is bloody thin and the evidentiary trail has been tampered with from the beginning, essentially)
What are the images we create of Jesus, how has that changed over time... Historical reception and literary interpretation. Endlessly fascinating subjects. Complicated
He's not the son of God, he's a very naughty boy "
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By *hunky GentMan
over a year ago
Maldon and Peterborough |
Does anyone think that Alexandre Dumas would want D'Artagnan played by a black man or mixed race?
I think not - because that wouldn't be true to the character he wrote.
Leave male characters as male
Female as female
White as white
Black as black.
I.e. true to how the character was written.
Otherwise what's next - Martin Poppins???? |
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By *asmeenTV/TS
over a year ago
STOKE ON TRENT |
"Does anyone think that Alexandre Dumas would want D'Artagnan played by a black man or mixed race?
I think not - because that wouldn't be true to the character he wrote.
Leave male characters as male
Female as female
White as white
Black as black.
I.e. true to how the character was written.
Otherwise what's next - Martin Poppins????"
No times should change
Mix it up use more transwomen etc. |
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"Who cares? She's long dead so I don't think she'd mind. "
It might alter the way in which the piece is interpreted by viewers.
Like... I dunno. Literally every other way in which every other piece of historical data is interpreted or any editorial decisions are made |
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"Who cares? She's long dead so I don't think she'd mind.
It might alter the way in which the piece is interpreted by viewers.
Like... I dunno. Literally every other way in which every other piece of historical data is interpreted or any editorial decisions are made "
If someone is that easily influenced by the colour of a person's skin then I have a hard time imagining that they will even be watching a documentary about Anne Boleyn in the first place. |
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"Who cares? She's long dead so I don't think she'd mind. "
If I was Ann Boleyn (I'm eternally grateful that I wasn't) I think I'd be more concerned about correcting the trumped up charges that got me and several other people executed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Who cares? She's long dead so I don't think she'd mind.
If I was Ann Boleyn (I'm eternally grateful that I wasn't) I think I'd be more concerned about correcting the trumped up charges that got me and several other people executed."
Excactly |
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"Who cares? She's long dead so I don't think she'd mind.
If I was Ann Boleyn (I'm eternally grateful that I wasn't) I think I'd be more concerned about correcting the trumped up charges that got me and several other people executed.
Excactly "
I quite like my head firmly attached to my neck |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Who cares? She's long dead so I don't think she'd mind.
If I was Ann Boleyn (I'm eternally grateful that I wasn't) I think I'd be more concerned about correcting the trumped up charges that got me and several other people executed.
Excactly
I quite like my head firmly attached to my neck "
Me too lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Sounds like a shit program. It's on Channel 5. If Chuck Norris was in it however... "
The following casting should be considered.take note Ch 5:
Henry VIII.. Donald Trump (former president)
Anne Boleyn... Peggy from he di hi
The lady in waiting..lily savage
Keeper of the stool... Dominic Cummings..
The king's prosecutor..Consuila from Family Guy |
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I think most of the people who bother to watch the program will be aware of original ethnic origin of the historical figure. I think most viewers will be more interested in the portrayal character and the story rather than the historical accuracy of the skin colour. I just hope that the actress in question does an excellent job. If not people will say she was chosen for the purposes of virtue signalling over suitability for the character. |
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"Who cares? She's long dead so I don't think she'd mind.
It might alter the way in which the piece is interpreted by viewers.
Like... I dunno. Literally every other way in which every other piece of historical data is interpreted or any editorial decisions are made
If someone is that easily influenced by the colour of a person's skin then I have a hard time imagining that they will even be watching a documentary about Anne Boleyn in the first place. "
Ha. Is true, but subconscious bias exists.
It permeates everything. Every tiny choice in wording, in script, in camera angle. It all adds up to deviate from the historical texts. And then - how do you interpret those, what do you include, what do you leave out, how do you extrapolate (because it's necessary, no text tells us everything)? |
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By *JohnMan
over a year ago
Newcastle upon Tyne |
I'm going to make a prediction. In this programme, the actor playing the character of Boleyn will not speak with the same accent as Boleyn herself. She will be saying words that Boleyn never said. The language she uses will be significantly different.
And no one will care. Why does the colour of her skin matter, but these differences (and many many others) don't? I'm struggling to think of an answer that isn't rooted in racism.
I saw a production of Oedipus at Colonus last year that had him played by a woman. It wasn't a gender-swapped version - the character was still male. It was fine. The sex of the actor made no difference at all. |
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"I'm going to make a prediction. In this programme, the actor playing the character of Boleyn will not speak with the same accent as Boleyn herself. She will be saying words that Boleyn never said. The language she uses will be significantly different.
And no one will care. Why does the colour of her skin matter, but these differences (and many many others) don't? I'm struggling to think of an answer that isn't rooted in racism.
I saw a production of Oedipus at Colonus last year that had him played by a woman. It wasn't a gender-swapped version - the character was still male. It was fine. The sex of the actor made no difference at all."
Some adaptations matter more than others in certain contexts, and why they matter is telling.
We interpret the past and in doing so talk about ourselves. It was ever thus. |
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"I'm going to make a prediction. In this programme, the actor playing the character of Boleyn will not speak with the same accent as Boleyn herself. She will be saying words that Boleyn never said. The language she uses will be significantly different.
And no one will care. Why does the colour of her skin matter, but these differences (and many many others) don't? I'm struggling to think of an answer that isn't rooted in racism.
I saw a production of Oedipus at Colonus last year that had him played by a woman. It wasn't a gender-swapped version - the character was still male. It was fine. The sex of the actor made no difference at all."
You make a very good point. But some people... And I'm one of them... Don't think about our visual entertainment that deeply...
If I was watching a film about Carl lewis, Muhammed Ali, mlk... Ghandi... Mugabe and so on... I'd expect it to be a black actor... If I was watching one about Princess Di, the queen of England etc.. And I don't think that's the worst. |
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"Should ethnic minority actors be excluded from all historical roles, including many Shakespearian ones? I've love the Royal Shakespeare Company's actors, whatever their race, for example.
We have an historical perspective that's limited. If a character's traits were the full subject of a piece, there might be a little influence on the choice of actor.
I'm inclined against limiting other's experiences, including the audiences'. "
I’ve been to see quite a bit of Shakespeare at Stratford the last few years. I find Shakespeare quite tricky to understand anyway, and the RSC do seem to enjoy making it more difficult by having very few productions in period settings and costume, mixing up the genders (literally turning a king into a queen), and mixing up the races within families.
If it’s a really, really good production (I loved King Lear with Anthony Sher) then you can navigate your way through it, but it does feel like box ticking rather than artistically driven.
For historical figures... as above, if Dwayne Johnson can pull off Anne Boleyn it would be fantastic to watch.
Anthony Hopkins did an amazing job with Nixon, despite looking nothing like him. All things are possible I suppose. The audience will decide if they still buy the story. |
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"Should ethnic minority actors be excluded from all historical roles, including many Shakespearian ones? I've love the Royal Shakespeare Company's actors, whatever their race, for example.
We have an historical perspective that's limited. If a character's traits were the full subject of a piece, there might be a little influence on the choice of actor.
I'm inclined against limiting other's experiences, including the audiences'.
I’ve been to see quite a bit of Shakespeare at Stratford the last few years. I find Shakespeare quite tricky to understand anyway, and the RSC do seem to enjoy making it more difficult by having very few productions in period settings and costume, mixing up the genders (literally turning a king into a queen), and mixing up the races within families.
If it’s a really, really good production (I loved King Lear with Anthony Sher) then you can navigate your way through it, but it does feel like box ticking rather than artistically driven.
For historical figures... as above, if Dwayne Johnson can pull off Anne Boleyn it would be fantastic to watch.
Anthony Hopkins did an amazing job with Nixon, despite looking nothing like him. All things are possible I suppose. The audience will decide if they still buy the story."
Definitely.
We tell stories. Interpret. Reinterpret.
From recording of current events, to interpretation as they become history, to rewriting and analysis.
Further creative input as it becomes popularised or indeed fiction (the boundary blurs). |
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"Should ethnic minority actors be excluded from all historical roles, including many Shakespearian ones? I've love the Royal Shakespeare Company's actors, whatever their race, for example.
We have an historical perspective that's limited. If a character's traits were the full subject of a piece, there might be a little influence on the choice of actor.
I'm inclined against limiting other's experiences, including the audiences'.
I’ve been to see quite a bit of Shakespeare at Stratford the last few years. I find Shakespeare quite tricky to understand anyway, and the RSC do seem to enjoy making it more difficult by having very few productions in period settings and costume, mixing up the genders (literally turning a king into a queen), and mixing up the races within families.
If it’s a really, really good production (I loved King Lear with Anthony Sher) then you can navigate your way through it, but it does feel like box ticking rather than artistically driven.
For historical figures... as above, if Dwayne Johnson can pull off Anne Boleyn it would be fantastic to watch.
Anthony Hopkins did an amazing job with Nixon, despite looking nothing like him. All things are possible I suppose. The audience will decide if they still buy the story.
Definitely.
We tell stories. Interpret. Reinterpret.
From recording of current events, to interpretation as they become history, to rewriting and analysis.
Further creative input as it becomes popularised or indeed fiction (the boundary blurs). "
Don't you think that some of it depends on your expectations? If it is clear it is reinterpretation of historical events or a retelling. I admire those who can go and watch Shakespeare or similar where characters are rewritten. But it's not for me. I simply don't enjoy it. If I want to see the seven samurai I don't enjoy seeing the magnificent seven.
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"Should ethnic minority actors be excluded from all historical roles, including many Shakespearian ones? I've love the Royal Shakespeare Company's actors, whatever their race, for example.
We have an historical perspective that's limited. If a character's traits were the full subject of a piece, there might be a little influence on the choice of actor.
I'm inclined against limiting other's experiences, including the audiences'.
I’ve been to see quite a bit of Shakespeare at Stratford the last few years. I find Shakespeare quite tricky to understand anyway, and the RSC do seem to enjoy making it more difficult by having very few productions in period settings and costume, mixing up the genders (literally turning a king into a queen), and mixing up the races within families.
If it’s a really, really good production (I loved King Lear with Anthony Sher) then you can navigate your way through it, but it does feel like box ticking rather than artistically driven.
For historical figures... as above, if Dwayne Johnson can pull off Anne Boleyn it would be fantastic to watch.
Anthony Hopkins did an amazing job with Nixon, despite looking nothing like him. All things are possible I suppose. The audience will decide if they still buy the story.
Definitely.
We tell stories. Interpret. Reinterpret.
From recording of current events, to interpretation as they become history, to rewriting and analysis.
Further creative input as it becomes popularised or indeed fiction (the boundary blurs).
Don't you think that some of it depends on your expectations? If it is clear it is reinterpretation of historical events or a retelling. I admire those who can go and watch Shakespeare or similar where characters are rewritten. But it's not for me. I simply don't enjoy it. If I want to see the seven samurai I don't enjoy seeing the magnificent seven.
"
Yes and no.
The things you enjoy seeing are equally reinterpretation, just less obvious if you don't know what you're looking for.
You have aesthetic preferences, that's fine, as do we all. But nothing in this sort of sphere is free from editorial influence, ever. (In some ways "true to history" interpretation might pull people into a false sense of security that this is "truth") |
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"Should ethnic minority actors be excluded from all historical roles, including many Shakespearian ones? I've love the Royal Shakespeare Company's actors, whatever their race, for example.
We have an historical perspective that's limited. If a character's traits were the full subject of a piece, there might be a little influence on the choice of actor.
I'm inclined against limiting other's experiences, including the audiences'.
I’ve been to see quite a bit of Shakespeare at Stratford the last few years. I find Shakespeare quite tricky to understand anyway, and the RSC do seem to enjoy making it more difficult by having very few productions in period settings and costume, mixing up the genders (literally turning a king into a queen), and mixing up the races within families.
If it’s a really, really good production (I loved King Lear with Anthony Sher) then you can navigate your way through it, but it does feel like box ticking rather than artistically driven.
For historical figures... as above, if Dwayne Johnson can pull off Anne Boleyn it would be fantastic to watch.
Anthony Hopkins did an amazing job with Nixon, despite looking nothing like him. All things are possible I suppose. The audience will decide if they still buy the story.
Definitely.
We tell stories. Interpret. Reinterpret.
From recording of current events, to interpretation as they become history, to rewriting and analysis.
Further creative input as it becomes popularised or indeed fiction (the boundary blurs).
Don't you think that some of it depends on your expectations? If it is clear it is reinterpretation of historical events or a retelling. I admire those who can go and watch Shakespeare or similar where characters are rewritten. But it's not for me. I simply don't enjoy it. If I want to see the seven samurai I don't enjoy seeing the magnificent seven.
Yes and no.
The things you enjoy seeing are equally reinterpretation, just less obvious if you don't know what you're looking for.
You have aesthetic preferences, that's fine, as do we all. But nothing in this sort of sphere is free from editorial influence, ever. (In some ways "true to history" interpretation might pull people into a false sense of security that this is "truth")"
Got me thinking... So is a non fiction book art? A documentary purely the producers interpretation? How much of "historical facts" are just an authors version and selective and or editorialised interpretation of events and transactions.? How much of public records (as an example) are interpretable and ambiguous?
When the history of covid is written, will the debate about with covid, or because of covid deaths be resolved.?
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"
Got me thinking... So is a non fiction book art? A documentary purely the producers interpretation? How much of "historical facts" are just an authors version and selective and or editorialised interpretation of events and transactions.? How much of public records (as an example) are interpretable and ambiguous?
When the history of covid is written, will the debate about with covid, or because of covid deaths be resolved.?
"
To a degree, yes. How do you choose to express fact? Why one fact over another? How did it become fact (are these things actually fact)? It's why these questions, what interpretation is ok and why, tells us more about ourselves than the material we're interpreting. Western cultures are having another contebtious discussion on race. So race comes into the forefront. If I were being asked to interpret the period it wouldn't be high on my list of priorities as decisions to make or interpretations to examine.
We may have more evidence once the dust settles on the pandemic. Depends on what's collected and why, there may not be enough data points. And what questions to ask - science, medicine, or history, literature. I'm not qualified to speak on the first. On the second, I suspect questions will be asked about the nature of society. How we see ourselves and how that plays out in crisis. The stories we tell about ourselves and how that influences our actions. The role of leaders, the media, social media, education, critical thinking. But I obviously don't know, because I'm insufficiently detached to see this as a subject of historical analysis. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Please, please, please leave Darth Vader alone. Don't mess with the dude. "
Darth Vader was voiced by James Earl Jones but was played by a white actor on screen....
Ohh the horror... I think I should start a protest. |
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I think we'll have to just wait out and judge it on its merit once released. We can speculate till the cows come home. Anne Boleyn is something that has been done a fair few times over the decades. This interpretation may be historically accurate in terms of current popular historical concensus today. Although often historical concensus changes over time with the changing fashions in popular historical veiw points, new discoveries and the social landscape of the time. It also may not really focus heavily on the history at all. As others have said it may be bias to exploring the story in modern eyes rather than eyes of the period. Maybe used as veichle to explore the issues that are in vouge today rather than the history. I suspect that is the chief worry about the casting, that its more about box ticking than anything else. For me the skin colour of the actress is of no importance to me. All I care about is if the preformer can convincingly pull of the part and that the direction, accuracy and script are good. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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right im going to say what alot of people on here are trying to but wont for fear of being branded raceist.
you cant have a black person play the role of a white person, if that view offends people, then so be it, i know alot of black and colourd people having lived in africa. from what ive seen and experianced first hand, the people who get most offended by racism are white middle class people, oh and the most raceist person i ever met was black, think of that what you will,
this post will probably get removed and i will most likely gat a ban from the forums, we need to stop worrying about who we are going to offend, and get on with life, i cant believe in this day and age we are so worked up on race, it really doesnt matter, we all bleed when cut etc.
however if a film needs a white actor, then use a white actor |
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"Please, please, please leave Darth Vader alone. Don't mess with the dude.
Darth Vader was voiced by James Earl Jones but was played by a white actor on screen....
Ohh the horror... I think I should start a protest."
You realise that darth vadar was not a historical figure nor at any point was any skin seen on screen. He could have been played by a woman and would have made no difference. |
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"Please, please, please leave Darth Vader alone. Don't mess with the dude.
Darth Vader was voiced by James Earl Jones but was played by a white actor on screen....
Ohh the horror... I think I should start a protest.
You realise that darth vadar was not a historical figure nor at any point was any skin seen on screen. He could have been played by a woman and would have made no difference. "
He takes he’s helmet off at the end of return of the Jedi and was white in the 3 prequels! just saying |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Please, please, please leave Darth Vader alone. Don't mess with the dude.
Darth Vader was voiced by James Earl Jones but was played by a white actor on screen....
Ohh the horror... I think I should start a protest.
You realise that darth vadar was not a historical figure nor at any point was any skin seen on screen. He could have been played by a woman and would have made no difference.
He takes he’s helmet off at the end of return of the Jedi and was white in the 3 prequels! just saying "
You also forgot to mention his son and daughter are white in these movies.....
Anyway as an American I’ve seen first hand how the people in the UK take their history seriously....
I was visiting London a few years back and people were going crazy over the Queens jubilee or something..... I just thought meh.... why all this traffic?
But honestly this thread is for the over 50 crowd to state their displeasure with the way the world is currently.....
Next they will be moaning about gay or transgender people being portrayed in the media..... |
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