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(Bisexual) men and cocks
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I think some women just find it a turn-off. Just about all hetero/bi men find 2 women together a turn on. Not the same for all women watching 2 men together.
But I could be wrong  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual... "
In my experience it seems to be because the female wants to be 100% centre of attention and if you're bi that won't be the case |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex."
Not all bi people have sti's |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's"
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu  |
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's"
Who said they did? That's not my thoughts by the way,I loved having bi mmf meets when I met. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu "
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual...
In my experience it seems to be because the female wants to be 100% centre of attention and if you're bi that won't be the case"
Only if it's a MMF 3some.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti "
I know...hence my "tongue firmly in cheek" comment...i was mocking the fact that people assume that being bi means you don't care who you're fucking...
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti "
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way."
Seems I'm not the only one, Maybe think before you type because that's what you said |
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way.
Seems I'm not the only one, Maybe think before you type because that's what you said "
Oh my God they're not my reasoning I was just saying why others may not meet them |
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Nah, some women just don't like the thought is all.
Or a dozen other reasons. They know their minds, and that's cool.
There's plenty of folk who over-objectify to the point of anonymity on all points of the sexuality spectrum.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way.
Seems I'm not the only one, Maybe think before you type because that's what you said
Oh my God they're not my reasoning I was just saying why others may not meet them "
Quote "they may have a higher chance of having an sti" Unquote |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way.
Seems I'm not the only one, Maybe think before you type because that's what you said "
No she didn't. What she said is at the start of this quoted post.
She said "they may have a higher chance of having an sti" - *may* and *higher chance*.
She absolutely did not say all bi people have sti's. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both. "
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
|
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Nah, some women just don't like the thought is all.
Or a dozen other reasons. They know their minds, and that's cool.
There's plenty of folk who over-objectify to the point of anonymity on all points of the sexuality spectrum. "
|
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Or maybe it’s because that guy has lost his ‘machismo’ element if he’s had a cock in his mouth. No longer seen as ‘manly’ enough as the insult cock sucker is regularly used as an insult by Men to other Men to demean them, portraying them as being in some way subservient to the guy they pleasured.
Bi women don’t get an insult of ‘fanny licker’
That’s my guess anyway  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way.
Seems I'm not the only one, Maybe think before you type because that's what you said
No she didn't. What she said is at the start of this quoted post.
She said "they may have a higher chance of having an sti" - *may* and *higher chance*.
She absolutely did not say all bi people have sti's. "
I never said she did I simply quoted her |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
"
Again, not biphobic.
Not wanting to meet someone doesn't make me phobic of anything.
Also, implying people shouldn't choose who they do and don't want to meet or they risk being labeled "phobic" comes off as super creepy.
Just saying. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
Again, not biphobic.
Not wanting to meet someone doesn't make me phobic of anything.
Also, implying people shouldn't choose who they do and don't want to meet or they risk being labeled "phobic" comes off as super creepy.
Just saying. "
Oh I'm not saying that! No one should meet/fuck someone they don't want to.
You're twisting my words there...
But if the ONLY thing that puts you off someone is their bisexuality, you are biphobic. In not saying you should meet them anyway. I'm not saying you SHOULD do anything.
As a bisexual person myself, I wouldn't want to meet someone who isn't interested in bi people.
|
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"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
"
Well absolutely been there. "We want the girls to play hard, but we will block you immediately if he has ever had any bi experiences".
Oh no, there's no "reason" for that, it's "just are preference" :/
What is the logic of it not being *possible* to be turned on by a guy who still loves women despite also having other (contextually irrelevant) interests comes into play? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
Again, not biphobic.
Not wanting to meet someone doesn't make me phobic of anything.
Also, implying people shouldn't choose who they do and don't want to meet or they risk being labeled "phobic" comes off as super creepy.
Just saying.
Oh I'm not saying that! No one should meet/fuck someone they don't want to.
You're twisting my words there...
But if the ONLY thing that puts you off someone is their bisexuality, you are biphobic. In not saying you should meet them anyway. I'm not saying you SHOULD do anything.
As a bisexual person myself, I wouldn't want to meet someone who isn't interested in bi people.
"
I see nothing wrong with men being bisexual, nothing at all. I just don't want sexual intimacy with a bisexual man. And that's my choice. To put someone in a position where either they're happy to have sex with someone who they aren't attracted to (for any reason) or label them a bigot in some way is a very unhelpful thing to do.
Not wanting to meet someone because they're bisexual doesn't make you biphobic.
|
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"You're twisting my words there...
But if the ONLY thing that puts you off someone is their bisexuality, you are biphobic. In not saying you should meet them anyway. I'm not saying you SHOULD do anything.
As a bisexual person myself, I wouldn't want to meet someone who isn't interested in bi people.
"
I think your originally one liner could be taken in various ways but it's clear to me you aren't saying things like "If you wouldn't fuck a transgender person you're transphobic".
I do still think though it's understandable and part of the human condition or whatever to support things in concept, very vocally, but still feel a little... uncomfortable... when it gets very close to you. I do get that TBF. We're absolutely looking for bi guys, however when that profile is 95% veris from other guys and mostly shots of his nice tight bumhole, I'll admit I'm unlikely to get in touch. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
Well absolutely been there. "We want the girls to play hard, but we will block you immediately if he has ever had any bi experiences".
Oh no, there's no "reason" for that, it's "just are preference" :/
What is the logic of it not being *possible* to be turned on by a guy who still loves women despite also having other (contextually irrelevant) interests comes into play?"
Exactly! They're never bothered about any of the women they may have been with...but a penis? Oh gosh no...instant turn off... |
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"I see nothing wrong with men being bisexual, nothing at all. I just don't want sexual intimacy with a bisexual man. And that's my choice. To put someone in a position where either they're happy to have sex with someone who they aren't attracted to (for any reason) or label them a bigot in some way is a very unhelpful thing to do.
Not wanting to meet someone because they're bisexual doesn't make you biphobic.
"
It doesn't in itself no. It's about why, right? So bearing in mind that "that's my choice" is not a reason, just begging the question... Why? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
Again, not biphobic.
Not wanting to meet someone doesn't make me phobic of anything.
Also, implying people shouldn't choose who they do and don't want to meet or they risk being labeled "phobic" comes off as super creepy.
Just saying.
Oh I'm not saying that! No one should meet/fuck someone they don't want to.
You're twisting my words there...
But if the ONLY thing that puts you off someone is their bisexuality, you are biphobic. In not saying you should meet them anyway. I'm not saying you SHOULD do anything.
As a bisexual person myself, I wouldn't want to meet someone who isn't interested in bi people.
I see nothing wrong with men being bisexual, nothing at all. I just don't want sexual intimacy with a bisexual man. And that's my choice. To put someone in a position where either they're happy to have sex with someone who they aren't attracted to (for any reason) or label them a bigot in some way is a very unhelpful thing to do.
Not wanting to meet someone because they're bisexual doesn't make you biphobic.
"
Not being attracted to someone is a different thing though isn't it. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I have nowhere said that you SHOULD touch anyone you're not interested in.
I've said what I've said. I stand by it.
You disagree. That's cool, we don't need to agree |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"I see nothing wrong with men being bisexual, nothing at all. I just don't want sexual intimacy with a bisexual man. And that's my choice. To put someone in a position where either they're happy to have sex with someone who they aren't attracted to (for any reason) or label them a bigot in some way is a very unhelpful thing to do.
Not wanting to meet someone because they're bisexual doesn't make you biphobic.
It doesn't in itself no. It's about why, right? So bearing in mind that "that's my choice" is not a reason, just begging the question... Why?"
See my first reply to the thread for that answer. =) |
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way.
Seems I'm not the only one, Maybe think before you type because that's what you said
Oh my God they're not my reasoning I was just saying why others may not meet them
Quote "they may have a higher chance of having an sti" Unquote"
You don't need to quote or unquote anything,everytime I go for a sexual check they ask if I've been with a bisexual man. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
Again, not biphobic.
Not wanting to meet someone doesn't make me phobic of anything.
Also, implying people shouldn't choose who they do and don't want to meet or they risk being labeled "phobic" comes off as super creepy.
Just saying.
Oh I'm not saying that! No one should meet/fuck someone they don't want to.
You're twisting my words there...
But if the ONLY thing that puts you off someone is their bisexuality, you are biphobic. In not saying you should meet them anyway. I'm not saying you SHOULD do anything.
As a bisexual person myself, I wouldn't want to meet someone who isn't interested in bi people.
I see nothing wrong with men being bisexual, nothing at all. I just don't want sexual intimacy with a bisexual man. And that's my choice. To put someone in a position where either they're happy to have sex with someone who they aren't attracted to (for any reason) or label them a bigot in some way is a very unhelpful thing to do.
Not wanting to meet someone because they're bisexual doesn't make you biphobic.
Not being attracted to someone is a different thing though isn't it. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I have nowhere said that you SHOULD touch anyone you're not interested in.
I've said what I've said. I stand by it.
You disagree. That's cool, we don't need to agree "
Not really, no.
If you aren't attracted to someone, it stands to reason you also wouldn't want to be intimate with them.
And I'm not putting words in your mouth. You literally said that you think people who state that they don't want to meet bi men are biphobic/homophobic.
You're right, we won't agree and it seems like a waste of time to continue this further.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You're twisting my words there...
But if the ONLY thing that puts you off someone is their bisexuality, you are biphobic. In not saying you should meet them anyway. I'm not saying you SHOULD do anything.
As a bisexual person myself, I wouldn't want to meet someone who isn't interested in bi people.
I think your originally one liner could be taken in various ways but it's clear to me you aren't saying things like "If you wouldn't fuck a transgender person you're transphobic".
I do still think though it's understandable and part of the human condition or whatever to support things in concept, very vocally, but still feel a little... uncomfortable... when it gets very close to you. I do get that TBF. We're absolutely looking for bi guys, however when that profile is 95% veris from other guys and mostly shots of his nice tight bumhole, I'll admit I'm unlikely to get in touch."
Im glad someone understands what im actually saying...
If you would absolutely fuck him, until you find out that at somepoint in time he has enjoyed another man's penis then you're biphobic. It's really quite simple.
It's no wonder so many bi guys are listed as straight on here! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
Again, not biphobic.
Not wanting to meet someone doesn't make me phobic of anything.
Also, implying people shouldn't choose who they do and don't want to meet or they risk being labeled "phobic" comes off as super creepy.
Just saying.
Oh I'm not saying that! No one should meet/fuck someone they don't want to.
You're twisting my words there...
But if the ONLY thing that puts you off someone is their bisexuality, you are biphobic. In not saying you should meet them anyway. I'm not saying you SHOULD do anything.
As a bisexual person myself, I wouldn't want to meet someone who isn't interested in bi people.
I see nothing wrong with men being bisexual, nothing at all. I just don't want sexual intimacy with a bisexual man. And that's my choice. To put someone in a position where either they're happy to have sex with someone who they aren't attracted to (for any reason) or label them a bigot in some way is a very unhelpful thing to do.
Not wanting to meet someone because they're bisexual doesn't make you biphobic.
Not being attracted to someone is a different thing though isn't it. Stop putting words in my mouth.
I have nowhere said that you SHOULD touch anyone you're not interested in.
I've said what I've said. I stand by it.
You disagree. That's cool, we don't need to agree
Not really, no.
If you aren't attracted to someone, it stands to reason you also wouldn't want to be intimate with them.
And I'm not putting words in your mouth. You literally said that you think people who state that they don't want to meet bi men are biphobic/homophobic.
You're right, we won't agree and it seems like a waste of time to continue this further.
"
Yep. If that is the ONLY reason.
If without knowing he was no you'd fuck him, but knowing he's bi, you wouldn't. You are absofuckinglutely biphobic. Regardless of whether you yourself are bi or not.
I'm not saying you should fuck them anyway...thats up to you. I wouldn't tell ANYONE who they should/shouldn't fuck
We'll agree to disagree |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way.
Seems I'm not the only one, Maybe think before you type because that's what you said
Oh my God they're not my reasoning I was just saying why others may not meet them
Quote "they may have a higher chance of having an sti" Unquote
You don't need to quote or unquote anything,everytime I go for a sexual check they ask if I've been with a bisexual man."
That's great we finally agree on your original quote that you do think bi people are a higher risk of carrying sti's..
Nothing more to be said really just understand people will have issues with that statement |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
Well absolutely been there. "We want the girls to play hard, but we will block you immediately if he has ever had any bi experiences".
Oh no, there's no "reason" for that, it's "just are preference" :/
What is the logic of it not being *possible* to be turned on by a guy who still loves women despite also having other (contextually irrelevant) interests comes into play?
Exactly! They're never bothered about any of the women they may have been with...but a penis? Oh gosh no...instant turn off... "
Lots of people are turned off by previous female partners. One problem with having public verifications. |
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's
Whaaaaaat?!
You mean being no doesn't mean you'll fuck ANYONE?! And that you don't give a shit about sexual health?!
You're kidding?!
(tongue firmly in cheek here)
Lu
I never said that I was replying to the comment saying Bi people are more likely to have an sti
I think you're taking what people say in the wrong way.
Seems I'm not the only one, Maybe think before you type because that's what you said
Oh my God they're not my reasoning I was just saying why others may not meet them
Quote "they may have a higher chance of having an sti" Unquote
You don't need to quote or unquote anything,everytime I go for a sexual check they ask if I've been with a bisexual man.
That's great we finally agree on your original quote that you do think bi people are a higher risk of carrying sti's..
Nothing more to be said really just understand people will have issues with that statement "
Jesus Christ I give up,for the final time that's not my thoughts. If it was I wouldn't have met bi men |
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"
Quote "they may have a higher chance of having an sti" Unquote
You don't need to quote or unquote anything,everytime I go for a sexual check they ask if I've been with a bisexual man.
That's great we finally agree on your original quote that you do think bi people are a higher risk of carrying sti's..
Nothing more to be said really just understand people will have issues with that statement "
Well TBF whatever the data actually is (which I do not know) If my wife and I have a bi guy round then she can still give blood and I can't... It's not necessarily a position based only in prejudiced, surely that is rooted in some science? |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? -
*****because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman? ******
"
?
|
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Oh it’s definitely an opinion former, and as for that tongue well and truly firmly in cheek. Would it not be better placed on a clit and what about a cock firmly placed in an ass
It’s all preferences |
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"Speaking for myself as a bi woman who doesn't want to meet bi men for sex.
Its not that deep, I simply find the idea of two men having sex a turn off. And when I know someone is bi, that thought occurs to me and therefore I don't find enjoyment in it.
I'm definitely not biphobic, again, I'm bi myself. There'd just be no point in me meeting a bi guy sexually since I wouldn't be turned on at all and it'd be unenjoyable for us both.
You can be bi and biphobic...just saying.
Well absolutely been there. "We want the girls to play hard, but we will block you immediately if he has ever had any bi experiences".
Oh no, there's no "reason" for that, it's "just are preference" :/
What is the logic of it not being *possible* to be turned on by a guy who still loves women despite also having other (contextually irrelevant) interests comes into play?
Exactly! They're never bothered about any of the women they may have been with...but a penis? Oh gosh no...instant turn off...
Lots of people are turned off by previous female partners. One problem with having public verifications. "
Lots of people are turned off by men who bareback anyone as well, male or female. Plus how many avoid partners with over 100 veris in a short period of time |
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"
It doesn't in itself no. It's about why, right? So bearing in mind that "that's my choice" is not a reason, just begging the question... Why?
See my first reply to the thread for that answer. =) "
I don't honestly know if that's a justification or not. It sounds reasonable as a final position, but who knows what a psychotherapist might ask about it?! and if it's things just buried in cultural / societal norms then it doesn't feel right to blanket damn that person for them. The very fundamentals of beauty are a social construct that has changes a lot over time... big boobs, small boobs, tanned skin, bleached white skin... |
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"Lots of people are turned off by men who bareback anyone as well, male or female. Plus how many avoid partners with over 100 veris in a short period of time"
But at what point does being part of a fundamental demographic shift to being specific (but not unique) lifestyle choices that are reasonable to use to judge their character? |
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"
Quote "they may have a higher chance of having an sti" Unquote
You don't need to quote or unquote anything,everytime I go for a sexual check they ask if I've been with a bisexual man.
That's great we finally agree on your original quote that you do think bi people are a higher risk of carrying sti's..
Nothing more to be said really just understand people will have issues with that statement
Well TBF whatever the data actually is (which I do not know) If my wife and I have a bi guy round then she can still give blood and I can't... It's not necessarily a position based only in prejudiced, surely that is rooted in some science?"
I was told I couldn't give blood once by the clinic if I'd been with a bisexual man,whether that's still the case I don't know. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
It doesn't in itself no. It's about why, right? So bearing in mind that "that's my choice" is not a reason, just begging the question... Why?
See my first reply to the thread for that answer. =)
I don't honestly know if that's a justification or not. It sounds reasonable as a final position, but who knows what a psychotherapist might ask about it?! and if it's things just buried in cultural / societal norms then it doesn't feel right to blanket damn that person for them. The very fundamentals of beauty are a social construct that has changes a lot over time... big boobs, small boobs, tanned skin, bleached white skin..."
Its not something I'd be looking to discuss with a psychotherapist, I'm on fab to have fun physical encounters with like minded individuals who I find attractive. Bisexual men just don't factor into the sex side of swinging for me.
Ultimately, I can't help what turns me on, or turns me off. If people want to label me as biphobic because of that, that's fine. I know that isn't the case, and I'm not here to please everyone else. I'll just focus on those I'm interested in meeting. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I've had a mmf with 2 bi guys. I didn't enjoy watching the 2 guys fuck each other, it did nothing for me sexually. So I now choose not to meet bi guys. That does not make me biphobic as I have nothing against it, I'm bi myself.
Biphobia refers to the fear, hatred or intolerance of bisexual men and women. Biphobia is a term used to describe aversion felt toward bisexuality and bisexuals as a social group or as individuals. I just looked that up on the net. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Lots of people are turned off by men who bareback anyone as well, male or female. Plus how many avoid partners with over 100 veris in a short period of time
But at what point does being part of a fundamental demographic shift to being specific (but not unique) lifestyle choices that are reasonable to use to judge their character?"
Why would it mean they are judging their character?
I wonder if this is why some men get irate when women turn them down. They just don't want to fuck them, it doesn't mean they are judging them. |
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"Lots of people are turned off by men who bareback anyone as well, male or female. Plus how many avoid partners with over 100 veris in a short period of time
But at what point does being part of a fundamental demographic shift to being specific (but not unique) lifestyle choices that are reasonable to use to judge their character?
Why would it mean they are judging their character?
I wonder if this is why some men get irate when women turn them down. They just don't want to fuck them, it doesn't mean they are judging them. "
I just mean them as an individual, rather than a label. It's yet to happen that we've met any Asian couples with guys that we like the look of, but I wouldn't dream for a second to put one of those racist "NO ASIANS!!!" blurbs in our profile. |
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Another thread about bi men, another thread of women saying 'I' m not into watching two men have sex, therefore I won't meet bi men', as if that makes any sense whatsoever.
Shockingly, bi men are not obligated to have sex with both men and women at the same time.
Therefore the only reason not to meet a bi man one on one is if the mere fact that he is also attracted to men is unpleasant to you.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual... "
Being married to a bi man, I've never felt like I wasn't centre of attention in any meets we have had, and my other half is very fussy about the men we meet as am I. But I have met and know some bi guys who will meet almost anyone, but then again I've met women who will also. I think there are bi guys who don't fancy other guys in relationship terms, just as part of threesome, then there are those guys who will meet guys alone. All depends on the person in my opinion xx |
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"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual... "
I think it is purely that side of their sexual nature does not interest them and they don’t want to be involved or persuaded for a third M to join them, although it is possible to have a MFM with a bi man and they don’t interact with the other male, it is all down to boundaries and communication.
On this part “When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock”...... could the same not be said for bi women, a pussy is just a pussy ? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Lots of people are turned off by men who bareback anyone as well, male or female. Plus how many avoid partners with over 100 veris in a short period of time
But at what point does being part of a fundamental demographic shift to being specific (but not unique) lifestyle choices that are reasonable to use to judge their character?
Why would it mean they are judging their character?
I wonder if this is why some men get irate when women turn them down. They just don't want to fuck them, it doesn't mean they are judging them.
I just mean them as an individual, rather than a label. It's yet to happen that we've met any Asian couples with guys that we like the look of, but I wouldn't dream for a second to put one of those racist "NO ASIANS!!!" blurbs in our profile."
We wouldn't meet Asian guys, but not because we're racist, simply because we don't find them attractive, just like hairy guys or skinny women, Its just a sexual preference. I'm BBW and we have had messages before saying 'sorry BBW isn't my thing' I don't take it personally, this site's about fantasy for us not to be taken so seriously x |
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"
We wouldn't meet Asian guys, but not because we're racist, simply because we don't find them attractive, just like hairy guys or skinny women, Its just a sexual preference. I'm BBW and we have had messages before saying 'sorry BBW isn't my thing' I don't take it personally, this site's about fantasy for us not to be taken so seriously x"
I'd think it's the blanket statements are entire ethnicities, orientations etc., that make these things problematic. The stats might not work in their favour when judging on a case by case basis, but to say as a universal fact that not one Asian man is attractive to you... eh... |
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By *otSoPoshWoman
over a year ago
In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon |
It doesn't bother me if a man I'm attracted to is bisexual, straight or undetermined. If we want to have the sexy times then as long as he isn't bringing previous partners with him (unless previously agreed) then I don't really mind.
That said..... Bi MMF? Or more Ms? Oh hell yes please......  |
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"It doesn't bother me if a man I'm attracted to is bisexual, straight or undetermined. If we want to have the sexy times then as long as he isn't bringing previous partners with him (unless previously agreed) then I don't really mind.
That said..... Bi MMF? Or more Ms? Oh hell yes please...... "
Perve |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I love the fact D is bi and he doesn’t just give or receive any sexual favours from any Tom Dick or Harry ! There has to be some form of attraction and connection and right time right place , I love seeing two guys together so I get the best of both worlds |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
We wouldn't meet Asian guys, but not because we're racist, simply because we don't find them attractive, just like hairy guys or skinny women, Its just a sexual preference. I'm BBW and we have had messages before saying 'sorry BBW isn't my thing' I don't take it personally, this site's about fantasy for us not to be taken so seriously x
I'd think it's the blanket statements are entire ethnicities, orientations etc., that make these things problematic. The stats might not work in their favour when judging on a case by case basis, but to say as a universal fact that not one Asian man is attractive to you... eh..."
Well I've not come across one as yet, but who knows what the future holds. Ive never eaten baked beans, but I don't keep trying them, as I know they don't appeal to me. People like what they like, that's life x |
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By *otSoPoshWoman
over a year ago
In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon |
"It doesn't bother me if a man I'm attracted to is bisexual, straight or undetermined. If we want to have the sexy times then as long as he isn't bringing previous partners with him (unless previously agreed) then I don't really mind.
That said..... Bi MMF? Or more Ms? Oh hell yes please......
Perve "
Suck it up buttercup.....
(please ) |
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"It doesn't bother me if a man I'm attracted to is bisexual, straight or undetermined. If we want to have the sexy times then as long as he isn't bringing previous partners with him (unless previously agreed) then I don't really mind.
That said..... Bi MMF? Or more Ms? Oh hell yes please......
Perve
Suck it up buttercup.....
(please ) "
 |
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"
We wouldn't meet Asian guys, but not because we're racist, simply because we don't find them attractive, just like hairy guys or skinny women, Its just a sexual preference. I'm BBW and we have had messages before saying 'sorry BBW isn't my thing' I don't take it personally, this site's about fantasy for us not to be taken so seriously x
I'd think it's the blanket statements are entire ethnicities, orientations etc., that make these things problematic. The stats might not work in their favour when judging on a case by case basis, but to say as a universal fact that not one Asian man is attractive to you... eh...
Well I've not come across one as yet, but who knows what the future holds. Ive never eaten baked beans, but I don't keep trying them, as I know they don't appeal to me. People like what they like, that's life x"
To some extent, sure. And you phrase it just fine I think. It's when you're a ... sentient... baked bean... (?!?!) and get told you're unwanted and horrible, even though they've never tried that it starts getting shitty. |
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"I love the fact D is bi and he doesn’t just give or receive any sexual favours from any Tom Dick or Harry ! There has to be some form of attraction and connection and right time right place , I love seeing two guys together so I get the best of both worlds "
Us to a T |
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By *otSoPoshWoman
over a year ago
In a ball gown because that's how we roll in N. Devon |
"It doesn't bother me if a man I'm attracted to is bisexual, straight or undetermined. If we want to have the sexy times then as long as he isn't bringing previous partners with him (unless previously agreed) then I don't really mind.
That said..... Bi MMF? Or more Ms? Oh hell yes please......
Perve
Suck it up buttercup.....
(please )
"
Thought you'd like that  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex."
Really!
|
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
Oh the old "bisexual men" preference debate again?
It is not in the slightest bit phobic to have a preference not to meet bisexual men if it is simply stated in terms of a "preference" - it comes down to how it's stated though.
Someone says to me (bisexual man that I am) "I prefer not to meet you" not a problem/not phobic - someone says to me "I prefer not to meet you as the idea of bisexual male sex, regardless of whether it is being done in front of me, is not a turn on" not a problem/not phobic.
Someone says to me "I prefer not to meet you because you're a disgusting disease ridden cock sucking bisexual slut who can't keep his hands off cocks" then I have a problem and it is absolutely phobic.
It all comes down to context and how it's expressed.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest that some people won't meet me because of my sexuality and I don't see the need to start screaming phobic or some kind of ism every time it happens, unless it's done in bigoted terms.
To come back to the OP though and the question that has been largely overlooked for the sake of the "phobic" debate:
"Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?"
I don't think bisexuality has anything to do with it - *some* men will treat women like a pussy regardless of their sexuality |
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"
It all comes down to context and how it's expressed.
....
I don't think bisexuality has anything to do with it - *some* men will treat women like a pussy regardless of their sexuality "
I suppose it depends what the judgement actually is. Isn't intent and motivation more significant? If you're homophobic, racist, sexist whatever... that isn't changed by saying it out loud or not. It's still what you think, for whatever reason you think it.
Ultimately whilst the act and the person are connected they are still distinct things, both of which have context and all and can be judged somewhat independently.
....
Yeah, I'm not seeing that angle at all. Maybe it's just that bi guys are presumably for more successful on average than straight guys at finding pieces of meat, if that's what they are looking for.
|
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"
It all comes down to context and how it's expressed.
....
I suppose it depends what the judgement actually is. Isn't intent and motivation more significant? If you're homophobic, racist, sexist whatever... that isn't changed by saying it out loud or not. It's still what you think, for whatever reason you think it.
Ultimately whilst the act and the person are connected they are still distinct things, both of which have context and all and can be judged somewhat independently.
"
Of course intent and motivation are both relevant and significant - but if they're not aired you may never know what they truly are.
I was discussing where they *are* aired, which is all you have to go on to decide if someone's intent and motivation is indeed veritable, and someone simply stating they prefer not to meet bisexual men is not a phobic statement in my book, and is as acceptable as someone saying they prefer not to meet people shorter than them, or who are into specific kinks.
It all comes back to how a preference is stated not necessarily what it is.
|
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual... "
It's not just bi men that do this... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I can grantee anyone who says they will not meet a bi guy has all ready meet one or 2 or three
Who are secretly bi and have they profiles set to straight
Really would shock some people if we tv/ts open or mail boxes to the public off fab and or looked at me pages
Would be a real eye opener off how many guys message us looking for fun who have straight in they profile and are only looking for woman and couples |
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"Could it just be personal taste?
Some people like some stuff and some dont, why is it an issue?"
But where does "personal taste" fundamentally come from. There are all sorts of things you can apply that too that vary massively, culture to culture... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Or maybe it’s because that guy has lost his ‘machismo’ element if he’s had a cock in his mouth. No longer seen as ‘manly’ enough as the insult cock sucker is regularly used as an insult by Men to other Men to demean them, portraying them as being in some way subservient to the guy they pleasured.
Bi women don’t get an insult of ‘fanny licker’
That’s my guess anyway "
Yep, that's where I'd put my money too. If this is someone's preference then I can understand it, better than a lot of the other stupid reasons people come up with, makes me wonder why it's such a rarely expressed view? |
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Really!
"
Don't you start . It's not what I think I met bisexual men when I was meeting,it's what other may think and what I've read on here and that they ask at the clinic. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Really!
Don't you start . It's not what I think I met bisexual men when I was meeting,it's what other may think and what I've read on here and that they ask at the clinic."
I have to say I was a little surprised that you would say that. |
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Really!
Don't you start . It's not what I think I met bisexual men when I was meeting,it's what other may think and what I've read on here and that they ask at the clinic.
I have to say I was a little surprised that you would say that. "
I think I just need to shut up or make myself a little clearer |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Not all bi people have sti's"
And not all women who aren't sexually attracted to bi men are homophobic |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Really!
Don't you start . It's not what I think I met bisexual men when I was meeting,it's what other may think and what I've read on here and that they ask at the clinic.
I have to say I was a little surprised that you would say that.
I think I just need to shut up or make myself a little clearer "
You absolutely do not need to shut up.
|
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Really!
Don't you start . It's not what I think I met bisexual men when I was meeting,it's what other may think and what I've read on here and that they ask at the clinic.
I have to say I was a little surprised that you would say that.
I think I just need to shut up or make myself a little clearer
You absolutely do not need to shut up.
"
I was tired in my defence,I have a teenager coming and going at all hours I'll blame it on her my brain is mush at the best of time's |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Really!
Don't you start . It's not what I think I met bisexual men when I was meeting,it's what other may think and what I've read on here and that they ask at the clinic.
I have to say I was a little surprised that you would say that.
I think I just need to shut up or make myself a little clearer
You absolutely do not need to shut up.
I was tired in my defence,I have a teenager coming and going at all hours I'll blame it on her my brain is mush at the best of time's "
Nah just blame it on the teenager.  |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"Could it just be personal taste?
Some people like some stuff and some dont, why is it an issue?
But where does "personal taste" fundamentally come from. There are all sorts of things you can apply that too that vary massively, culture to culture... "
But does it really matter when all's said and done? Yes of course if that person is prejudiced somehow or bigoted it matters but if it really is simply a case of "personal taste" is it any different to my "personal taste" for not liking marmite? Or most of my clothes being blues, greys and greens or any number of other things we all express a preference about every day of our lives? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Could it just be personal taste?
Some people like some stuff and some dont, why is it an issue?
Exactly the view I take "
Having taken some abuse on the forums before for saying that many women don't really understand why they find certain men attractive, I find it funny that "it's just my preference" is now being used as a defense. |
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex.
Really!
Don't you start . It's not what I think I met bisexual men when I was meeting,it's what other may think and what I've read on here and that they ask at the clinic.
I have to say I was a little surprised that you would say that.
I think I just need to shut up or make myself a little clearer
You absolutely do not need to shut up.
I was tired in my defence,I have a teenager coming and going at all hours I'll blame it on her my brain is mush at the best of time's
Nah just blame it on the teenager. "
Definitely teenagers eh horrible thing's . Apart from when she took me out for my birthday last weekend then of course she's an angel |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Could it just be personal taste?
Some people like some stuff and some dont, why is it an issue?
Exactly the view I take
Having taken some abuse on the forums before for saying that many women don't really understand why they find certain men attractive, I find it funny that "it's just my preference" is now being used as a defense."
Why do they need a defence?
As long as someone isn't being deliberately offensive no reason needs to be given. Infact if people give or expect a reason for a no it would solve a lot of issues. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Could it just be personal taste?
Some people like some stuff and some dont, why is it an issue?
Exactly the view I take
Having taken some abuse on the forums before for saying that many women don't really understand why they find certain men attractive, I find it funny that "it's just my preference" is now being used as a defense.
Why do they need a defence?
As long as someone isn't being deliberately offensive no reason needs to be given. Infact if people give or expect a reason for a no it would solve a lot of issues. "
*didn't |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"Could it just be personal taste?
Some people like some stuff and some dont, why is it an issue?
Exactly the view I take
Having taken some abuse on the forums before for saying that many women don't really understand why they find certain men attractive, I find it funny that "it's just my preference" is now being used as a defense."
Having not seen or remembered those threads it's difficult to comment by comparison but I think "preference" is a perfectly acceptable reason to express any number of tastes from the mundane to the more complex and think we get too hung up on here for needing an "explanation" for everything - sometimes it is simply a "preference" plain and simple, yes there might be underlying reasons for that preference and if ideologically they are sound and expressed in a reasonable way then I have no issue with them.
I also think a lot of (mostly male) users get hung up on people expressing preferences that rule them out when just accepting people hold them is the better way to go for all - by railing against someone's preference (if it's non bigoted) you're not going to change their mind after all. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Having not seen or remembered those threads it's difficult to comment by comparison but I think "preference" is a perfectly acceptable reason to express any number of tastes from the mundane to the more complex and think we get too hung up on here for needing an "explanation" for everything - sometimes it is simply a "preference" plain and simple, yes there might be underlying reasons for that preference and if ideologically they are sound and expressed in a reasonable way then I have no issue with them.
I also think a lot of (mostly male) users get hung up on people expressing preferences that rule them out when just accepting people hold them is the better way to go for all - by railing against someone's preference (if it's non bigoted) you're not going to change their mind after all."
Yeah, if someone doesn't want to meet with you then I don't believe they have to give a reason, it's their decision.
The thread was about giving dating advice to men, so in that context knowing why you find some men attractive and not others was important.
I'm saying you shouldn't try and have it both ways, either you understand why you're attracted (or not) to some men or you don't. A preference is a reason but not an explanation. |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
" A preference is a reason but not an explanation."
Very true but often an explanation isn't needed, or shouldn't be, on here - if someone chooses not to meet me, all I need to know is that they don't want to meet me plain and simple.
Trouble is, as I said, too many people get hung up on needing an explanation. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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" A preference is a reason but not an explanation.
Very true but often an explanation isn't needed, or shouldn't be, on here - if someone chooses not to meet me, all I need to know is that they don't want to meet me plain and simple.
Trouble is, as I said, too many people get hung up on needing an explanation."
I was referring to the current discussion on here though and not what is appropriate when meeting.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's better to admit you have a preference and don't know why, than to come up with a false explanation that clearly doesn't match what you actually do.
There could be a non-phobic explanation for a preference against bi men but I don't see how you can make that claim without knowing why you have that preference. |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
" A preference is a reason but not an explanation.
Very true but often an explanation isn't needed, or shouldn't be, on here - if someone chooses not to meet me, all I need to know is that they don't want to meet me plain and simple.
Trouble is, as I said, too many people get hung up on needing an explanation.
I was referring to the current discussion on here though and not what is appropriate when meeting.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's better to admit you have a preference and don't know why, than to come up with a false explanation that clearly doesn't match what you actually do.
There could be a non-phobic explanation for a preference against bi men but I don't see how you can make that claim without knowing why you have that preference."
Probably because too many people are ready to jump on it calling "phobic" regardless of what that reason might be, so it's simpler to express a preference and leave it at that. |
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"Could it just be personal taste?
Some people like some stuff and some dont, why is it an issue?
But where does "personal taste" fundamentally come from. There are all sorts of things you can apply that too that vary massively, culture to culture...
But does it really matter when all's said and done? Yes of course if that person is prejudiced somehow or bigoted it matters but if it really is simply a case of "personal taste" is it any different to my "personal taste" for not liking marmite? Or most of my clothes being blues, greys and greens or any number of other things we all express a preference about every day of our lives? "
I'm sure we can all agree that any given classification of humanity is a bit different to yeast extract. |
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"There could be a non-phobic explanation for a preference against bi men but I don't see how you can make that claim without knowing why you have that preference.
Probably because too many people are ready to jump on it calling "phobic" regardless of what that reason might be, so it's simpler to express a preference and leave it at that."
I guess a take on this though is that if people are "phobic" it's not necessarily a chosen position, or one that they are even aware of. I'd say it's "OK" to be phobic in various ways, as long as you are willing to consider that position when challenged. It's not always somethign to be damned for, but something that you can look at and want to work out for your own personal development. And maybe you just can't shift it, maybe it's impossible, or too hard for the impact it creates. Ultimately given there's no reason to have to get over those views when they really have zero impact on anyone's life, it's more an interesting conversation to me than something that must be "fixed".
I *KNOW* I have various irrational prejudices or varying proportions, but generally they don't matter to any extent, and probably will never go away. |
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"That's not the first reason that springs to my mind,more that they may have a higher chance of having an sti or are not turned on by two men having sex."
I'd buy that, if some of the women saying they don't meet bi guys didn't have scores of "meet" verifications themselves.
It's biphobia, nothing less. It's okay for them to swing both ways (literally) but a guy doing it is seen as "dirty". Jokers.
Lou x |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nope. I think women who don't wanna meet bi men are homophobic/biphobic.
Lu "
Homophobia is just a word and covers a spectrum of possibilities - we shouldn't fear the word alone or use it for effect. In this case it's an acceptable form of homophobia/personal choice imho - it's not hurting anyone or telling anyone they can't do anything they like, it's not illegal and who on earth would want to have sex with someone who didn't want to have sex with them anyway? (I'm sure in that basis there must also be plenty of homophobephobes).
Some folk don't like Nippy because they think he's a dick from what they see in the forum and they wouldn't sleep with ME because of that. They don't KNOW I'm a dick, they just think it, I may or may not be and if I took the dick test then who'd get to say what an acceptable level of dickishness is? But anyway, if ppl THINK I'm a dick then I think it's ok for them not to want to meet me on that basis and I wouldn't call them dickist or or try to slurr them for not getting to know me better. Power to personal choice, however IST it may appear to the easily offended!  |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"Could it just be personal taste?
Some people like some stuff and some dont, why is it an issue?
But where does "personal taste" fundamentally come from. There are all sorts of things you can apply that too that vary massively, culture to culture...
But does it really matter when all's said and done? Yes of course if that person is prejudiced somehow or bigoted it matters but if it really is simply a case of "personal taste" is it any different to my "personal taste" for not liking marmite? Or most of my clothes being blues, greys and greens or any number of other things we all express a preference about every day of our lives?
I'm sure we can all agree that any given classification of humanity is a bit different to yeast extract."
Yes it's different but in simplest terms the matter of "personal taste/preference" over either thing isn't any different really - yes the underlying reasons for one may be apt deeper than the other but it still comes down to personal taste/preference.
The reasons for that personal taste/preference are interesting to discuss for sure, but are they an absolute necessity in either case? |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"There could be a non-phobic explanation for a preference against bi men but I don't see how you can make that claim without knowing why you have that preference.
Probably because too many people are ready to jump on it calling "phobic" regardless of what that reason might be, so it's simpler to express a preference and leave it at that.
I guess a take on this though is that if people are "phobic" it's not necessarily a chosen position, or one that they are even aware of. I'd say it's "OK" to be phobic in various ways, as long as you are willing to consider that position when challenged. It's not always somethign to be damned for, but something that you can look at and want to work out for your own personal development. And maybe you just can't shift it, maybe it's impossible, or too hard for the impact it creates. Ultimately given there's no reason to have to get over those views when they really have zero impact on anyone's life, it's more an interesting conversation to me than something that must be "fixed".
I *KNOW* I have various irrational prejudices or varying proportions, but generally they don't matter to any extent, and probably will never go away."
You see though - this is the problem I have with the term "phobic" being broad brush applied to anyone stating a "preference/personal taste" - the definition of "phobic" is:
"having or involving an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something."
To use the example of not meeting bisexual men:
Does someone not wanting to meet them have a "fear" of them? Not necessarily
Does someone not wanting to meet them have an aversion to them? Again arguably not necessarily, although I concede not wanting to sleep with them *could* be an aversion for *some*
Is not wanting to meet them "irrational" or "extreme"? Again not necessarily
People can have any number of rational reasons for not wanting to meet bisexual men that are not in the slightest bit "phobic" - not being able to give blood for three months is one, personal experience is another, personal taste another and the list goes on.
It really doesn't matter to me in the slightest that people won't meet me because I'm bisexual, and in fact in my experience that number is fairly small compared to the number that potentially would meet me because of, or in spite of, my sexuality. The only time I have an issue with it is when that preference is expressed in derogatory or bigoted terms. |
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"There could be a non-phobic explanation for a preference against bi men but I don't see how you can make that claim without knowing why you have that preference.
Probably because too many people are ready to jump on it calling "phobic" regardless of what that reason might be, so it's simpler to express a preference and leave it at that.
I guess a take on this though is that if people are "phobic" it's not necessarily a chosen position, or one that they are even aware of. I'd say it's "OK" to be phobic in various ways, as long as you are willing to consider that position when challenged. It's not always somethign to be damned for, but something that you can look at and want to work out for your own personal development. And maybe you just can't shift it, maybe it's impossible, or too hard for the impact it creates. Ultimately given there's no reason to have to get over those views when they really have zero impact on anyone's life, it's more an interesting conversation to me than something that must be "fixed".
I *KNOW* I have various irrational prejudices or varying proportions, but generally they don't matter to any extent, and probably will never go away.
You see though - this is the problem I have with the term "phobic" being broad brush applied to anyone stating a "preference/personal taste" - the definition of "phobic" is:
"having or involving an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something."
To use the example of not meeting bisexual men:
Does someone not wanting to meet them have a "fear" of them? Not necessarily
Does someone not wanting to meet them have an aversion to them? Again arguably not necessarily, although I concede not wanting to sleep with them *could* be an aversion for *some*
Is not wanting to meet them "irrational" or "extreme"? Again not necessarily
People can have any number of rational reasons for not wanting to meet bisexual men that are not in the slightest bit "phobic" - not being able to give blood for three months is one, personal experience is another, personal taste another and the list goes on.
It really doesn't matter to me in the slightest that people won't meet me because I'm bisexual, and in fact in my experience that number is fairly small compared to the number that potentially would meet me because of, or in spite of, my sexuality. The only time I have an issue with it is when that preference is expressed in derogatory or bigoted terms."
Very well put. Interesting thread in as much as written comprehension is so open to misunderstanding. But I have to say I think calling someone a "phone" or an "ist" is absolutely derogatory. It's never used in a complimentary way. The issue I have with this is the "judges" who dare to project there limited knowledge of an individual into words and call them out using a derogatory label and further then assume that they must evaluate why they have preferences. They dont. Some people come here for some light hearted fun and enjoyment. They may not have the time, inclination or in some cases ability to understand their personal preferences. I don't like marmite or fish but I dont feel inclined to spend too much time or effort in analysing why. It's great to have the intellectual debate but not to judge people when you ask them "what is your preference" and then judge them for their contribution to the answer.
I'd imagine the reasons why some women choose not to meet bi men are many and varied. And no explanations beyond "I choose not to" are necessary. |
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"There could be a non-phobic explanation for a preference against bi men but I don't see how you can make that claim without knowing why you have that preference.
Probably because too many people are ready to jump on it calling "phobic" regardless of what that reason might be, so it's simpler to express a preference and leave it at that.
I guess a take on this though is that if people are "phobic" it's not necessarily a chosen position, or one that they are even aware of. I'd say it's "OK" to be phobic in various ways, as long as you are willing to consider that position when challenged. It's not always somethign to be damned for, but something that you can look at and want to work out for your own personal development. And maybe you just can't shift it, maybe it's impossible, or too hard for the impact it creates. Ultimately given there's no reason to have to get over those views when they really have zero impact on anyone's life, it's more an interesting conversation to me than something that must be "fixed".
I *KNOW* I have various irrational prejudices or varying proportions, but generally they don't matter to any extent, and probably will never go away.
You see though - this is the problem I have with the term "phobic" being broad brush applied to anyone stating a "preference/personal taste" - the definition of "phobic" is:
"having or involving an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something."
To use the example of not meeting bisexual men:
Does someone not wanting to meet them have a "fear" of them? Not necessarily
Does someone not wanting to meet them have an aversion to them? Again arguably not necessarily, although I concede not wanting to sleep with them *could* be an aversion for *some*
Is not wanting to meet them "irrational" or "extreme"? Again not necessarily
People can have any number of rational reasons for not wanting to meet bisexual men that are not in the slightest bit "phobic" - not being able to give blood for three months is one, personal experience is another, personal taste another and the list goes on.
It really doesn't matter to me in the slightest that people won't meet me because I'm bisexual, and in fact in my experience that number is fairly small compared to the number that potentially would meet me because of, or in spite of, my sexuality. The only time I have an issue with it is when that preference is expressed in derogatory or bigoted terms.
Very well put. Interesting thread in as much as written comprehension is so open to misunderstanding. But I have to say I think calling someone a "phone" or an "ist" is absolutely derogatory. It's never used in a complimentary way. The issue I have with this is the "judges" who dare to project there limited knowledge of an individual into words and call them out using a derogatory label and further then assume that they must evaluate why they have preferences. They dont. Some people come here for some light hearted fun and enjoyment. They may not have the time, inclination or in some cases ability to understand their personal preferences. I don't like marmite or fish but I dont feel inclined to spend too much time or effort in analysing why. It's great to have the intellectual debate but not to judge people when you ask them "what is your preference" and then judge them for their contribution to the answer.
I'd imagine the reasons why some women choose not to meet bi men are many and varied. And no explanations beyond "I choose not to" are necessary. "
A *phone!... And I was trying to be so serious too |
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"
Does someone not wanting to meet them have an aversion to them? Again arguably not necessarily, although I concede not wanting to sleep with them *could* be an aversion for *some*
Is not wanting to meet them "irrational" or "extreme"? Again not necessarily
People can have any number of rational reasons for not wanting to meet bisexual men that are not in the slightest bit "phobic" - not being able to give blood for three months is one, personal experience is another, personal taste another and the list goes on.
"
Not convinced tbh. I gave the blood example, which is only for men meeting bi men, not women I think. But that's never been a justification I've ever actually seen.
Personal experience... Which by definition needs to have created a prejudice.
With semantics here, prejudice is a neutral word, very often a good thing in contract law or whatever so its not used here as a derogatory term. The implication out the end may well be though.
But you ended with "personal taste" and yet again though that is the start something, not the end. That argument is just circular, right? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You mean that bi men only want my cock and not the guy owning it ?
Gutted now 
Everyone wants me, what are you talking about....? "
Yes but you are unique that's why. Iam just a pal copy of any guys who drive a ford explorer these days |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"You mean that bi men only want my cock and not the guy owning it ?
Gutted now
Everyone wants me, what are you talking about....?
Yes but you are unique that's why. Iam just a pal copy of any guys who drive a ford explorer these days "
And this is why I own your cock my lover.... |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Lots of people are turned off by men who bareback anyone as well, male or female. Plus how many avoid partners with over 100 veris in a short period of time
But at what point does being part of a fundamental demographic shift to being specific (but not unique) lifestyle choices that are reasonable to use to judge their character?
Why would it mean they are judging their character?
I wonder if this is why some men get irate when women turn them down. They just don't want to fuck them, it doesn't mean they are judging them.
I just mean them as an individual, rather than a label. It's yet to happen that we've met any Asian couples with guys that we like the look of, but I wouldn't dream for a second to put one of those racist "NO ASIANS!!!" blurbs in our profile."
Ah ok that makes sense now thanks. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual...
Being married to a bi man, I've never felt like I wasn't centre of attention in any meets we have had, and my other half is very fussy about the men we meet as am I. But I have met and know some bi guys who will meet almost anyone, but then again I've met women who will also. I think there are bi guys who don't fancy other guys in relationship terms, just as part of threesome, then there are those guys who will meet guys alone. All depends on the person in my opinion xx"
Good point. X |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"
Does someone not wanting to meet them have an aversion to them? Again arguably not necessarily, although I concede not wanting to sleep with them *could* be an aversion for *some*
Is not wanting to meet them "irrational" or "extreme"? Again not necessarily
People can have any number of rational reasons for not wanting to meet bisexual men that are not in the slightest bit "phobic" - not being able to give blood for three months is one, personal experience is another, personal taste another and the list goes on.
Not convinced tbh. I gave the blood example, which is only for men meeting bi men, not women I think. But that's never been a justification I've ever actually seen.
Personal experience... Which by definition needs to have created a prejudice.
With semantics here, prejudice is a neutral word, very often a good thing in contract law or whatever so its not used here as a derogatory term. The implication out the end may well be though.
But you ended with "personal taste" and yet again though that is the start something, not the end. That argument is just circular, right? "
I've seen the blood example given plenty of times and it *does* apply to men and women - from the blood donation service site you cannot give blood if:
"You are a *person* who in the past 3 months has had sex with a man or men who have had oral or anal sex with a man or men, with or without protection"
As for prejudice and if we're being semantic let's look at the definition (the non-legal one which most people would go to when it's used):
"preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience."
So how "personal experience" fits that definition I'm not sure?
The "personal taste" argument is indeed circular for those that choose to make it so, and cannot accept simply that someone is allowed to have personal taste/preference without assuming the reasons behind it are somehow wrong.
I'll end again by saying as a bisexual man it bothers me not one jot that *some* people may not want to meet me for sex because of my sexuality, I accept that is a preference they are entitled to and so long as the reasons behind that preference are not bigoted or hateful I really don't have a problem with it being "just their preference". |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual...
I think it is purely that side of their sexual nature does not interest them and they don’t want to be involved or persuaded for a third M to join them, although it is possible to have a MFM with a bi man and they don’t interact with the other male, it is all down to boundaries and communication.
*** On this part “When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock”...... could the same not be said for bi women, a pussy is just a pussy ? *** "
*** Yes of course.
But the OP question was because of a comment on a thread I was reading about orally bi men. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Oh the old "bisexual men" preference debate again?
It is not in the slightest bit phobic to have a preference not to meet bisexual men if it is simply stated in terms of a "preference" - it comes down to how it's stated though.
Someone says to me (bisexual man that I am) "I prefer not to meet you" not a problem/not phobic - someone says to me "I prefer not to meet you as the idea of bisexual male sex, regardless of whether it is being done in front of me, is not a turn on" not a problem/not phobic.
Someone says to me "I prefer not to meet you because you're a disgusting disease ridden cock sucking bisexual slut who can't keep his hands off cocks" then I have a problem and it is absolutely phobic.
It all comes down to context and how it's expressed.
Doesn't bother me in the slightest that some people won't meet me because of my sexuality and I don't see the need to start screaming phobic or some kind of ism every time it happens, unless it's done in bigoted terms.
*** To come back to the OP though and the question that has been largely overlooked for the sake of the "phobic" debate:
"Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?"
I don't think bisexuality has anything to do with it - *some* men will treat women like a pussy regardless of their sexuality ***"
*** I agree, I was just wondering if it was a perception that some people may have. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"There could be a non-phobic explanation for a preference against bi men but I don't see how you can make that claim without knowing why you have that preference.
Probably because too many people are ready to jump on it calling "phobic" regardless of what that reason might be, so it's simpler to express a preference and leave it at that.
I guess a take on this though is that if people are "phobic" it's not necessarily a chosen position, or one that they are even aware of. I'd say it's "OK" to be phobic in various ways, as long as you are willing to consider that position when challenged. It's not always somethign to be damned for, but something that you can look at and want to work out for your own personal development. And maybe you just can't shift it, maybe it's impossible, or too hard for the impact it creates. Ultimately given there's no reason to have to get over those views when they really have zero impact on anyone's life, it's more an interesting conversation to me than something that must be "fixed".
I *KNOW* I have various irrational prejudices or varying proportions, but generally they don't matter to any extent, and probably will never go away."
I've found it an interesting discussion with good points to think about.
I'm not looking for an 'answer' as everyone is different and I don't think they should have to explain either. I agree they don't matter. Unless they make their views known in a bigoted unpleasant way, in which case they probably matter even less to me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nope. I think women who don't wanna meet bi men are homophobic/biphobic.
Lu "
so heterosexual people are homophobic / biphobic because they are heterosexual  thats a bit like telling a gay man hes got to have straight sex or he hetro-phobic ... |
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"Nope. I think women who don't wanna meet bi men are homophobic/biphobic.
Lu
so heterosexual people are homophobic / biphobic because they are heterosexual thats a bit like telling a gay man hes got to have straight sex or he hetro-phobic ... "
No, that's totally fallacious. Firstly the language is about excluding bi guys not not seeking them out. Secondly bi guys still like women, gay men don't like women. A bi guy meeting a woman will, of course, be notionally "straight" for that period of time. The conflict is totally, obviously, different. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Nope. I think women who don't wanna meet bi men are homophobic/biphobic.
Lu
so heterosexual people are homophobic / biphobic because they are heterosexual thats a bit like telling a gay man hes got to have straight sex or he hetro-phobic ...
No, that's totally fallacious. Firstly the language is about excluding bi guys not not seeking them out. Secondly bi guys still like women, gay men don't like women. A bi guy meeting a woman will, of course, be notionally "straight" for that period of time. The conflict is totally, obviously, different. "
I thought I was going to have to be the one to point out the fuzzy logic |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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maybe i just said that the wrong way im bi and a married a bi guy (bi since teens) not swinger bi but fully bi so i know the dynamic but a bi guy can play straight but hes still bi that enough for some i dont think those who dont want to play with bi guys should be labeled with anti anything thats what i was trying to say preference is preference nothing else |
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"maybe i just said that the wrong way im bi and a married a bi guy (bi since teens) not swinger bi but fully bi so i know the dynamic but a bi guy can play straight but hes still bi that enough for some i dont think those who dont want to play with bi guys should be labeled with anti anything thats what i was trying to say preference is preference nothing else"
Again, words like like "preference" is the start of a conversation, not then end. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"When some (bisexual) men have sexual interaction with other men, they don't need to be attracted to the man, they just suck/ fuck them because they want some cock.
Do you think that could be a reason why some women don't want to meet bi men? - because they feel like the bi man would just treat them like a pussy and not as a woman?
...(Bisexual) in brackets because some men who suck cocks or fuck men, don't identify as bisexual... "
We’re all different though aren’t we, but the similarity is, that we can’t force ourselves to be attracted to something we’re not, and it is our right to have whatever preference we choose.
I love bi men
Hippy |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"maybe i just said that the wrong way im bi and a married a bi guy (bi since teens) not swinger bi but fully bi so i know the dynamic but a bi guy can play straight but hes still bi that enough for some i dont think those who dont want to play with bi guys should be labeled with anti anything thats what i was trying to say preference is preference nothing else
Again, words like like "preference" is the start of a conversation, not then end. "
lol ok if you say so |
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By *not69Man
over a year ago
Lancashire |
I find it's more couples who say "no bi guys" and I just put that down to the make half not wanting a 3some with another guy who maybe looking at his arse thinking "oh I really wanna put my cock there" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I notice in debates like this ppl will only pick up on weakness from the less able in order to help them "prove" or validate their own OPINION, yet they ignore the stronger points from the more able that would challenge them to think a little deeper. Being right and winning, or rather the appearance of such, seems more important than working through the issue and reaching a common understanding or solution....
Opinions are opinions, I don't know when folk will work this out and stop trying to prove others opinions wrong - it's not possible really to control what others think or believe, you can influence, but if you insist on simply telling ppl they're wrong, being rude, name calling and labelling them it'll generally have the reverse effect.... |
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By *emini ManMan
over a year ago
There and to the left a bit |
"maybe i just said that the wrong way im bi and a married a bi guy (bi since teens) not swinger bi but fully bi so i know the dynamic but a bi guy can play straight but hes still bi that enough for some i dont think those who dont want to play with bi guys should be labeled with anti anything thats what i was trying to say preference is preference nothing else
Again, words like like "preference" is the start of a conversation, not then end. "
In the context of deciding whether someone is for you in terms of meeting from here "preference" is both the start and the end of the conversation or should be though.
Everyone has a right to "prefer" to meet someone or not, and not expect to have that preference questioned - it won't make the blindest bit of difference to whether that someone wants to meet you to know why they hold that preference.
In a wider debate about why someone won't meet people of a particular sexuality then yes "preference" can be the beginning of a conversation as to why that preference is held, but again doesn't have to be - depends how much it matters to the individuals concerned I guess.
I just find it funny that male bisexuality is one of probably two "preferences" that seems to be debated in a circular fashion ad infinitum on here and yet you rarely see debates about people who hold a preference not to meet TVs for example, or any of the myriad other elements of sexuality that may be ruled out by "preference" |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I find it's more couples who say "no bi guys" and I just put that down to the make half not wanting a 3some with another guy who maybe looking at his arse thinking "oh I really wanna put my cock there" "
Just because you're bi doesn't mean you like anal, Same as if you're hetero. This is a common misconception especially surrounding TV's |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"I notice in debates like this ppl will only pick up on weakness from the less able in order to help them "prove" or validate their own OPINION, yet they ignore the stronger points from the more able that would challenge them to think a little deeper. Being right and winning, or rather the appearance of such, seems more important than working through the issue and reaching a common understanding or solution....
Opinions are opinions, I don't know when folk will work this out and stop trying to prove others opinions wrong - it's not possible really to control what others think or believe, you can influence, but if you insist on simply telling ppl they're wrong, being rude, name calling and labelling them it'll generally have the reverse effect.... "
Which ppl? |
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