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Do things ever kick off in clubs?
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Yes definitely. I was playing in group fun when the wife stormed off out of the room. Came back a few minutes later shouting and carrying on like a jealous child.
It was embarrassing for her husband and the rest of us. People like that shouldnt be swinging if they can't handle it.
Mrs |
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This once happened at a club I won't name to spare everyone's blushes...
There was this "single" bloke who was a regular. At least he said he was single, but as it turned out, he had a gf at home.
This gf must have got suspicious when he was out at weekends until all hours, so one Saturday night when he had gone to the club, she looked at his search history on the computer. She found details of the club, phoned them up and got membership information.
She then went to the club, became a member and wandered in, only to see her bloke balls deep in a woman in a private room where you could see in through a mirror but those inside couldn't see out.
She went berserk. Hammering on the mirror so hard, she broke the glass. He came out, saw her and - stupidly - tried to take the moral high ground, accusing her of spying on him .
That went down like a bucket of cold sick and she executed a perfect right hook on his nose, before being dragged away by customers.
Not surprisingly, they were both thrown out and banned. He was also sent a bill for the broken mirror which, do his credit, he paid. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"This once happened at a club I won't name to spare everyone's blushes...
There was this "single" bloke who was a regular. At least he said he was single, but as it turned out, he had a gf at home.
This gf must have got suspicious when he was out at weekends until all hours, so one Saturday night when he had gone to the club, she looked at his search history on the computer. She found details of the club, phoned them up and got membership information.
She then went to the club, became a member and wandered in, only to see her bloke balls deep in a woman in a private room where you could see in through a mirror but those inside couldn't see out.
She went berserk. Hammering on the mirror so hard, she broke the glass. He came out, saw her and - stupidly - tried to take the moral high ground, accusing her of spying on him .
That went down like a bucket of cold sick and she executed a perfect right hook on his nose, before being dragged away by customers.
Not surprisingly, they were both thrown out and banned. He was also sent a bill for the broken mirror which, do his credit, he paid. "
Facking heck imagine having sex cheating of your partner and they can see you at it  |
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"This once happened at a club I won't name to spare everyone's blushes...
There was this "single" bloke who was a regular. At least he said he was single, but as it turned out, he had a gf at home.
This gf must have got suspicious when he was out at weekends until all hours, so one Saturday night when he had gone to the club, she looked at his search history on the computer. She found details of the club, phoned them up and got membership information.
She then went to the club, became a member and wandered in, only to see her bloke balls deep in a woman in a private room where you could see in through a mirror but those inside couldn't see out.
She went berserk. Hammering on the mirror so hard, she broke the glass. He came out, saw her and - stupidly - tried to take the moral high ground, accusing her of spying on him .
That went down like a bucket of cold sick and she executed a perfect right hook on his nose, before being dragged away by customers.
Not surprisingly, they were both thrown out and banned. He was also sent a bill for the broken mirror which, do his credit, he paid.
Facking heck imagine having sex cheating of your partner and they can see you at it "
Indeed.. The whole story came out because after she was dragged off him, they had a slanging match where he continued to accuse her of spying and she explained how she found him. As you can imagine we were all agog  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Never seen it myself but that's because I've only ever been during the day when it's quieter but I did hear a story of a couple being booted out of a certain club because the Male of the couple was inserting the pool balls up his partners arse.
How true that is I couldn't say but I'm sure you can read it on here in the club section  |
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By *orkizCouple
over a year ago
Wakefield |
Once out of all the years we've been swinging it was in le chambre the fem was chasing her hubby slapping him because he had tried chatting up the barmaid in a pub and the wife wasn't happy never saw them again lol
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"This once happened at a club I won't name to spare everyone's blushes...
There was this "single" bloke who was a regular. At least he said he was single, but as it turned out, he had a gf at home.
This gf must have got suspicious when he was out at weekends until all hours, so one Saturday night when he had gone to the club, she looked at his search history on the computer. She found details of the club, phoned them up and got membership information.
She then went to the club, became a member and wandered in, only to see her bloke balls deep in a woman in a private room where you could see in through a mirror but those inside couldn't see out.
She went berserk. Hammering on the mirror so hard, she broke the glass. He came out, saw her and - stupidly - tried to take the moral high ground, accusing her of spying on him .
That went down like a bucket of cold sick and she executed a perfect right hook on his nose, before being dragged away by customers.
Not surprisingly, they were both thrown out and banned. He was also sent a bill for the broken mirror which, do his credit, he paid.
Facking heck imagine having sex cheating of your partner and they can see you at it
Indeed.. The whole story came out because after she was dragged off him, they had a slanging match where he continued to accuse her of spying and she explained how she found him. As you can imagine we were all agog "
Lol like he was inocent and doing nothing wrong. This should of been on the Jeremy Kyle |
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Not in a club, but a couple we know went to a club, pulled another couple and went back to their place.
Things were going swimmingly with the bloke in the couple we knew getting it on with the woman in the other couple, when the bloke in that couple went mad, calling his partner a slag and threatening to kill her. She had to hide in the bathroom whilst our friends talked down the bloke.
He eventually calmed down, but that was the end of the night.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Never seen it myself but that's because I've only ever been during the day when it's quieter but I did hear a story of a couple being booted out of a certain club because the Male of the couple was inserting the pool balls up his partners arse.
How true that is I couldn't say but I'm sure you can read it on here in the club section "
Kinky haha |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Not in a club, but a couple we know went to a club, pulled another couple and went back to their place.
Things were going swimmingly with the bloke in the couple we knew getting it on with the woman in the other couple, when the bloke in that couple went mad, calling his partner a slag and threatening to kill her. She had to hide in the bathroom whilst our friends talked down the bloke.
He eventually calmed down, but that was the end of the night.
"
Makes me think what was he thinking agreeing to it in the first place  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Not in a club, but a couple we know went to a club, pulled another couple and went back to their place.
Things were going swimmingly with the bloke in the couple we knew getting it on with the woman in the other couple, when the bloke in that couple went mad, calling his partner a slag and threatening to kill her. She had to hide in the bathroom whilst our friends talked down the bloke.
He eventually calmed down, but that was the end of the night.
Makes me think what was he thinking agreeing to it in the first place "
Husband- I want to take you and watch you having sex with another guy.
Then when she does.. YOU SLAG! |
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"Not in a club, but a couple we know went to a club, pulled another couple and went back to their place.
Things were going swimmingly with the bloke in the couple we knew getting it on with the woman in the other couple, when the bloke in that couple went mad, calling his partner a slag and threatening to kill her. She had to hide in the bathroom whilst our friends talked down the bloke.
He eventually calmed down, but that was the end of the night.
Makes me think what was he thinking agreeing to it in the first place
Husband- I want to take you and watch you having sex with another guy.
Then when she does.. YOU SLAG! "
I think some blokes think swinging is a great way for them to get to fuck other women, but can't handle it when their partner enjoys sex with another man. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Witnessed a few nasty moments over the years.
All of which were women who didn’t know when to stop drinking and started shouting abuse or lashing out at their partner.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Once. Out of many, many times. It was dealt with quickly.
With alcohol flowing and a bit of jealousy I would of thought it would happen more "
Most swingers dont get jelous... they want to do it  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not in a club, but a couple we know went to a club, pulled another couple and went back to their place.
Things were going swimmingly with the bloke in the couple we knew getting it on with the woman in the other couple, when the bloke in that couple went mad, calling his partner a slag and threatening to kill her. She had to hide in the bathroom whilst our friends talked down the bloke.
He eventually calmed down, but that was the end of the night.
"
What a party pooper eh?  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Not in a club, but a couple we know went to a club, pulled another couple and went back to their place.
Things were going swimmingly with the bloke in the couple we knew getting it on with the woman in the other couple, when the bloke in that couple went mad, calling his partner a slag and threatening to kill her. She had to hide in the bathroom whilst our friends talked down the bloke.
He eventually calmed down, but that was the end of the night.
Makes me think what was he thinking agreeing to it in the first place
Husband- I want to take you and watch you having sex with another guy.
Then when she does.. YOU SLAG!
I think some blokes think swinging is a great way for them to get to fuck other women, but can't handle it when their partner enjoys sex with another man. "
Love watching each other having fun.. if people get jelous they shouldn't be swinging |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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On my last club visit there was a couple who were extremely d*unk, who eventually got ejected after the man got a bit handsy with whichever fems happened to pass by. His missus kept rowing with him about it, but the staff dealt with them efficiently, and got them out with the minimum of fuss possible. |
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Yes.
Someone (a Romanian man) tried to drag me out a hot tub... he was very quickly removed.
I’ve had people touch me without being asked.
I’ve had someone be so rough with me they made me bleed (my ex went nuts at him and the twat still asked if he could carry on!)
I’ve had pushy people not understand “no means no”.
Basically, add a couple of single men (or even couples!), add alcohol and entitlement and it will cause arguments unfortunately. |
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By *eah BabyCouple
over a year ago
Cheshire, Windermere ,Cumbria |
"Yes.
Someone (a Romanian man) tried to drag me out a hot tub... he was very quickly removed.
I’ve had people touch me without being asked.
I’ve had someone be so rough with me they made me bleed (my ex went nuts at him and the twat still asked if he could carry on!)
I’ve had pushy people not understand “no means no”.
Basically, add a couple of single men (or even couples!), add alcohol and entitlement and it will cause arguments unfortunately. "
Oh heck sounds like you have had a nightmare! If that was me the said man would have found himself in the hot tub and not in a way he found fun  glad to hear he was removed though.
People certainly shouldn’t touch without the invite or them asking if ok by you and as for someone making me bleed a swift jolt to the knackers and asking them how they like it would have been in order |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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The only time I’ve had unpleasantness was when I laughed at a gentleman complaining at the bar after he’d been informed that at the gloryhole he’d stuck his cock through it was the hubby not the wife who’d sucked him off. He didn’t like my assertion that the whole point of the gloryhole is taking the risk. He got quite aggressive and was asked to leave. |
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Only had a problem once, a couple came in and the lady seemed to have had quite a bit to drink, Dutch courage maybe, but as she come into one of the open play rooms she shouted “ Ohh I can’t look at that”, then she got really loud and came over to the bed that I was on with a fwb as we had stopped mid fuck wondering what the he’ll was going on, she then tried to grab him from behind practically climbing on his back, the husband was mortified at this point and he dragged her away, the owners asked them to leave right there and then  |
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"The only time I’ve had unpleasantness was when I laughed at a gentleman complaining at the bar after he’d been informed that at the gloryhole he’d stuck his cock through it was the hubby not the wife who’d sucked him off. He didn’t like my assertion that the whole point of the gloryhole is taking the risk. He got quite aggressive and was asked to leave. "
Some people are unbelievable (him not you) |
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"Yes.
Someone (a Romanian man) tried to drag me out a hot tub... he was very quickly removed.
I’ve had people touch me without being asked.
I’ve had someone be so rough with me they made me bleed (my ex went nuts at him and the twat still asked if he could carry on!)
I’ve had pushy people not understand “no means no”.
Basically, add a couple of single men (or even couples!), add alcohol and entitlement and it will cause arguments unfortunately.
Oh heck sounds like you have had a nightmare! If that was me the said man would have found himself in the hot tub and not in a way he found fun glad to hear he was removed though.
People certainly shouldn’t touch without the invite or them asking if ok by you and as for someone making me bleed a swift jolt to the knackers and asking them how they like it would have been in order "
Yeah it’s an “experience” going as a single fem haha |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The only time I’ve had unpleasantness was when I laughed at a gentleman complaining at the bar after he’d been informed that at the gloryhole he’d stuck his cock through it was the hubby not the wife who’d sucked him off. He didn’t like my assertion that the whole point of the gloryhole is taking the risk. He got quite aggressive and was asked to leave. "
To be honest I would of expected there to be a woman on the other side as well. I thought there would be bi clubs for men. |
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By *oxychicWoman
over a year ago
Nottinghamshire |
"The only time I’ve had unpleasantness was when I laughed at a gentleman complaining at the bar after he’d been informed that at the gloryhole he’d stuck his cock through it was the hubby not the wife who’d sucked him off. He didn’t like my assertion that the whole point of the gloryhole is taking the risk. He got quite aggressive and was asked to leave.
To be honest I would of expected there to be a woman on the other side as well. I thought there would be bi clubs for men. "
Gloryholes it just that anyone can suck it's the chance u take when u stick your cock through lol |
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By *eah BabyCouple
over a year ago
Cheshire, Windermere ,Cumbria |
"Yes.
Someone (a Romanian man) tried to drag me out a hot tub... he was very quickly removed.
I’ve had people touch me without being asked.
I’ve had someone be so rough with me they made me bleed (my ex went nuts at him and the twat still asked if he could carry on!)
I’ve had pushy people not understand “no means no”.
Basically, add a couple of single men (or even couples!), add alcohol and entitlement and it will cause arguments unfortunately.
Oh heck sounds like you have had a nightmare! If that was me the said man would have found himself in the hot tub and not in a way he found fun glad to hear he was removed though.
People certainly shouldn’t touch without the invite or them asking if ok by you and as for someone making me bleed a swift jolt to the knackers and asking them how they like it would have been in order
Yeah it’s an “experience” going as a single fem haha "
I can imagine lol, you are very brave, just hope you have had some enjoyable experiences. |
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I’ve seen a number of couples having arguments between themselves in clubs.
I’ve also heard story’s of couples going to meet other couples and during play one of them “freaks out”. One woman attacked the Male if the other couple with her shoe. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"The only time I’ve had unpleasantness was when I laughed at a gentleman complaining at the bar after he’d been informed that at the gloryhole he’d stuck his cock through it was the hubby not the wife who’d sucked him off. He didn’t like my assertion that the whole point of the gloryhole is taking the risk. He got quite aggressive and was asked to leave.
To be honest I would of expected there to be a woman on the other side as well. I thought there would be bi clubs for men.
Gloryholes it just that anyone can suck it's the chance u take when u stick your cock through lol"
Well you learn something new every day thanks for the info. I don't know how I would of reacted if I felt a beard  |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
|
"Yes.
Someone (a Romanian man) tried to drag me out a hot tub... he was very quickly removed.
I’ve had people touch me without being asked.
I’ve had someone be so rough with me they made me bleed (my ex went nuts at him and the twat still asked if he could carry on!)
I’ve had pushy people not understand “no means no”.
Basically, add a couple of single men (or even couples!), add alcohol and entitlement and it will cause arguments unfortunately. "
Damn that's assault  |
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By *oxychicWoman
over a year ago
Nottinghamshire |
"The only time I’ve had unpleasantness was when I laughed at a gentleman complaining at the bar after he’d been informed that at the gloryhole he’d stuck his cock through it was the hubby not the wife who’d sucked him off. He didn’t like my assertion that the whole point of the gloryhole is taking the risk. He got quite aggressive and was asked to leave.
To be honest I would of expected there to be a woman on the other side as well. I thought there would be bi clubs for men.
Gloryholes it just that anyone can suck it's the chance u take when u stick your cock through lol
Well you learn something new every day thanks for the info. I don't know how I would of reacted if I felt a beard "
Dont stick your cock through a glory hole then as its very often men that doing the sucking lol |
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Personally I always said and think swinger clubs should be alcohol. Free zones if you can’t swing unless Yr pissed Off Yr face should you really be doing it seen many a fight between couples and singles all because of alcohol we normally only drink soft drinks when swinging |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Not in a club but at a sauna at mixed day. Two single women who came to sauna together having a big row because one wasn't keen on sharing a guy in private room |
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YES once too many times ive seen it.
arguments with the couples
It dosnt just happen with the clubs either, It also happens with organised meets as well.
Once was so bad at an organised club meet, I had heard the young couples argument was going out for a smoke.
Found her on the floor helped her up and found she was covered in blood took her back to reception entrance.
Some of the patrons had heard her screams and had come out.
He had punched her so hard her mouth was really bleeding badly and swelled up a bit.
I stayed with her at reception for a bit with the door staff, as ambulance and police was on its way.
She was in tears and hysterical that the person she was with could do such a thing.
Then went for a smoke after a bit and joined the group of ladies and men outside.
I did go back and ask at door staff how she was.
Later on was told boyfriend done a runner she went back to hotel and he was arrested there.
She was a loverly lady didnt need what she got that night, as ive always remembered it. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Seen a few tiffs over the years, and once had a wonan storm off and lock herself in the toilet when my then partner crossed a boundary neither of the other couple bothered to mention to us beforehand which was handled excellently by the club (the old Tease 2) who just wanted to make sure everyone was okay.
The worst I've ever seen was a couple who had a domestic that started in the bar but over the following 30 monutes or so moved to the play areas, then the smoking area and finally their room where it continued at such volume that the whole smoking area could hear it word for word. The woman was the sole aggressor and the man barely said a word as she repeatedly abused him. Despite the whole club being disturbed and aware of the couples behaviour the club were incredibly reluctant to ask them to leave and eventually said they had warned them they would have to leave if they didn't stop. Quite laughable given how the club presents itself though I guess they were regulars |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Not violence but I’ve been in one now closed Derbyshire club and seen a group of 6 women absolutely paralytic, stumbling around shouting and generally being a pain, having decided the club was a cheap boozy night out. Spoilt the night for everyone else, couldn’t help thinking if it had been a group of guys they’d have been kicked out |
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I’ve seen couples on two occasions where the wife has stormed out in floods of tears. The last one I remember screaming “He’s a fxxxking lying bxxtard, we’ve had this before!”
Another incident I saw was as I was leaving, and a couple were signing in. Only the female wasn’t for paying her half as a couple, preferring to only pay as a single female and let the bloke pay a single male fee, which he obviously hadn’t expected! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Seen it a fair amount. A lot of the time you don't need to see it with your eyes, ir hear it with your ears... you can simply feel the tension.
But yeah, seen a fair few kick offs.
It's not always that people are insecure or shouldn't be swinging. People cross boundaries and it's shit.
We're at the stage where we're still discovering what is and isn't comfortable for us, and without trying stuff we won't know. I wouldn't kick off in a club tho, but yeah, I would call time and leave
P |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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How do you behave in swingers club
Is it just be friendly and nice to people I'm asking as I nit been but I would love to go and I dont want to be kicked out for behaving the worng way |
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By *ty31Man
over a year ago
NW London |
"How do you behave in swingers club
Is it just be friendly and nice to people I'm asking as I nit been but I would love to go and I dont want to be kicked out for behaving the worng way"
Being friendly, respectful and not being creepy or silent.
Basically just behave how you would at a regular bar or party and you'll be just fine |
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"How do you behave in swingers club
Is it just be friendly and nice to people I'm asking as I nit been but I would love to go and I dont want to be kicked out for behaving the worng way"
Most clubs provide advice on etiquette, particularly for subgle men, on their websites. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"How do you behave in swingers club
Is it just be friendly and nice to people I'm asking as I nit been but I would love to go and I dont want to be kicked out for behaving the worng way
Most clubs provide advice on etiquette, particularly for subgle men, on their websites."
I will check that out if I decided to visit a club |
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"How do you behave in swingers club
Is it just be friendly and nice to people I'm asking as I nit been but I would love to go and I dont want to be kicked out for behaving the worng way
Most clubs provide advice on etiquette, particularly for subgle men, on their websites."
In all honesty I think the emphasis to ‘behave’ is always put on the single guys - often unfairly imo. Occasionally I think they’re treated with the least respect by both clubs and other fabbers because they’re the most ‘expendable’. I’ve seen single men, couples and single ladies behave badly - no one is more innocent or guilty in my experience.
As for trouble - I’ve seen a few instances in my 6 years of clubbing - but it’s generally dealt with swiftly and capably by the owners and it’s never spoiled the evening. |
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"How do you behave in swingers club
Is it just be friendly and nice to people I'm asking as I nit been but I would love to go and I dont want to be kicked out for behaving the worng way
Most clubs provide advice on etiquette, particularly for subgle men, on their websites.
In all honesty I think the emphasis to ‘behave’ is always put on the single guys - often unfairly imo. Occasionally I think they’re treated with the least respect by both clubs and other fabbers because they’re the most ‘expendable’. I’ve seen single men, couples and single ladies behave badly - no one is more innocent or guilty in my experience.
As for trouble - I’ve seen a few instances in my 6 years of clubbing - but it’s generally dealt with swiftly and capably by the owners and it’s never spoiled the evening. "
Agreed on all counts. |
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"How do you behave in swingers club
Is it just be friendly and nice to people I'm asking as I nit been but I would love to go and I dont want to be kicked out for behaving the worng way
Most clubs provide advice on etiquette, particularly for subgle men, on their websites.
In all honesty I think the emphasis to ‘behave’ is always put on the single guys - often unfairly imo. Occasionally I think they’re treated with the least respect by both clubs and other fabbers because they’re the most ‘expendable’. I’ve seen single men, couples and single ladies behave badly - no one is more innocent or guilty in my experience. "
Having visited clubs both as a single guy, and as a couple, I can speak from experience how differently a single guy is treated in the club scene. You do need a thick skin, it's not for the faint of heart |
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So why do clubs sell booze if all the shit that happens in them is caused by d*unks
In our experience most guys can’t fuck when they drink to much
and the girls who are tend to pass out when they get in the room ? |
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By *oxychicWoman
over a year ago
Nottinghamshire |
"So why do clubs sell booze if all the shit that happens in them is caused by d*unks
In our experience most guys can’t fuck when they drink to much
and the girls who are tend to pass out when they get in the room ?"
They dont all sell alcohol |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Hopefully when I visit one it will sell alcohol. I think il need it for shagging courage in front of an audience lol and it will help me with my shyness. |
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By *oxychicWoman
over a year ago
Nottinghamshire |
"Hopefully when I visit one it will sell alcohol. I think il need it for shagging courage in front of an audience lol and it will help me with my shyness. "
Not all have a license so maybe check that out and you dont need to shag in front of a audience if you chose not to ,there is private rooms |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Hopefully when I visit one it will sell alcohol. I think il need it for shagging courage in front of an audience lol and it will help me with my shyness.
Not all have a license so maybe check that out and you dont need to shag in front of a audience if you chose not to ,there is private rooms "
Gotcha |
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"So why do clubs sell booze if all the shit that happens in them is caused by d*unks
In our experience most guys can’t fuck when they drink to much
and the girls who are tend to pass out when they get in the room ?"
Most I've been to don't, it's BYO, served by staff. |
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"We know not all clubs but I’d say 80% do here as most think it’s a pre requisite that they need to sell alcohol if people are gonna be fucking "
I tend to drive to clubs and have 2 small wines at the beginning of an evening.
On the very rare occasions I’ve had a lot to drink at clubs (when I’ve got a local hotel etc) then I haven’t had sex.
If you need a large dose of ‘Dutch courage’ to swing then you certainly shouldn’t be swinging imo. I’ve come across women in couples who are practically ready to pass out before they feel comfortable going upstairs to play - and obviously steer well clear!
As an aside - very few clubs have a license to sell alcohol - the vast majority I’ve visited are byo. Xx |
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"How do you behave in swingers club
Is it just be friendly and nice to people I'm asking as I nit been but I would love to go and I dont want to be kicked out for behaving the worng way
Most clubs provide advice on etiquette, particularly for subgle men, on their websites.
In all honesty I think the emphasis to ‘behave’ is always put on the single guys - often unfairly imo. Occasionally I think they’re treated with the least respect by both clubs and other fabbers because they’re the most ‘expendable’. I’ve seen single men, couples and single ladies behave badly - no one is more innocent or guilty in my experience.
As for trouble - I’ve seen a few instances in my 6 years of clubbing - but it’s generally dealt with swiftly and capably by the owners and it’s never spoiled the evening. "
Agree entirely. I'm not singling out single men, it's just that a guy asked and many clubs provide guidance aimed specifcally at single men. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'm a doorman and I've seen security in clubs watching the TV monitors but in a room .. best way then you only come out when some scatty arseholed Doris starts kicking off or some handsy geeza doesn't understand the English word NO.
If you've ever worked in bars and discos with idiots who still have their clobber on then you know dropping yer draws don't make a difference |
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lol 
