FabSwingers.com > Forums > Ireland > Moral dilemma Scumbag Versus Survival.
Moral dilemma Scumbag Versus Survival.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Ok was reading through a thread there on what is a scumbag and somebody posted the people looting in Jobstown, but rhetorically speaking say perhaps we had 2/3 weeks of heavy snow in a country like ours that can't cope with snow and people can't make it to work or businesses close and people lose wages because of these snow days and they still have their families to provide for.
Remembering that most people are only a few wage packets away from poverty.
If these people go out looting for food and essential items in an over worked, over priced and under paid society does this make them scumbags that they would try and look after their family?
And another thing all these snow days etcetera who doors the bill there Joe bloggs loosing a days wages because the government are not fit to clear and keep the roads clear? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Two to three weeks is alot different to two to three days. There would always be emergency aid at that stage anyway and I'm sure these stores would be the first to hand out food for free if that was the case. The people who did that in Dublin were just scumbags. That wasn't even an isolated incident. Centra was targetted too and there was also a video of youths driving around a stolen dump truck. Scumbags saw the opportunity to take advantage with gardai not around as much. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"Nothing or no situation gives anyone the right to take whats not not theirs.
I would hope that as civil human beings we would pull together and help each other. "
Yes you have a very good point there!
I agree people should be kinder and help each other more like the auld days.
But how possible is this and you say you hope, this to me doesn't sound reassuring. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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2 incidents by d*unken youths. The other was a robbed summer truck with d*unken youths terrorising an estate.. The video you seen, look closely, they're dressed in the best of gear with expensive trainers. Scumbags did it for a laugh and not for the greater good of feeding the less well off  |
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By *ixpackCouple
over a year ago
South |
"2 incidents by d*unken youths. The other was a robbed summer truck with d*unken youths terrorising an estate.. The video you seen, look closely, they're dressed in the best of gear with expensive trainers. Scumbags did it for a laugh and not for the greater good of feeding the less well off "
The guys arrested ranged from 24-47...hardly youths.
We are out the sticks and all day yesterday lads are bombing about in quads and 4x4's. They know well they can get away with murder at the minute.
As for the original question..Im sure if this went on for weeks etc emergency measures would be put in place rather than having looting etc.
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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Please re read the main post again I'm not talking about last night. I'm referring to rhetorically if we had a blizzard lasting 2/3 weeks please re read the main post fully. Plus someone mentioned emergency aid this country is so backward how good would it be? |
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By *iktikiCouple
over a year ago
cork |
"Ok was reading through a thread there on what is a scumbag and somebody posted the people looting in Jobstown, but rhetorically speaking say perhaps we had 2/3 weeks of heavy snow in a country like ours that can't cope with snow and people can't make it to work or businesses close and people lose wages because of these snow days and they still have their families to provide for.
Remembering that most people are only a few wage packets away from poverty.
If these people go out looting for food and essential items in an over worked, over priced and under paid society does this make them scumbags that they would try and look after their family?
And another thing all these snow days etcetera who doors the bill there Joe bloggs loosing a days wages because the government are not fit to clear and keep the roads clear? "
If people were left with no option to fed themselves I'd have no problem with looting for food once all other options had been exhausted.
Last nite was just mindless thuggery |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Lidl is not over priced, you can't use that as a rationale!
Lidl goes to great lengths to keep a class of their goods inexpensive so it can retain a reputation as a good place to shop for poor people.
They're part of the solution, not the problem! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Remembering that most people are only a few wage packets away from poverty.
If these people go out looting for food and essential items in an over worked, over priced and under paid society does this make them scumbags that they would try and look after their family?
And another thing all these snow days etcetera who doors the bill there Joe bloggs loosing a days wages because the government are not fit to clear and keep the roads clear? "
In my book the following is true:
You have no rights. Human or otherwise.
You do not have a right to have a family.
You do not have a right to a job.
This is because 'rights' are a intellectual fiction that are completely contigent on the level of a country's propersity.
Have you read the UN Delcaration of Human Rights? Of course not, nobody does. Let me tell you about it - it implies sweat shop labourers in Bangladesh should be paid holiday pay.
The only thing that matters is what is possible and your choices of what you do.
Everything else is an abstraction.
The concept of 'rights' has made Westerners delusional, abstracted from realities.
The word 'rights' is in truth a synonym for 'privileges'.
I don't mean to imply people shouldn't have them - but that it's not a moral argument for what you ought to possess.
The UN could tomorrow modify their list of rights to include an X-Box and honey nut toffee but that doesn't mean anything and neither do the other rights on the list. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Think of my argument this way.
Your ideas about property seem to be contingent on wealth and poverty but even our poorest people are wealthy on the global scale.
There exist over billion people, closer to four billion by our standards, who are poor.
Should they arrive in our country, loot the stores, take our stuff - are they in the right to do so because we are richer than they are?
I don't think so. That's doesn't take you to a place where anybody is better off in the big picture.
The only way to prevent a spiral towards chaos is to allow people to do useful work and allow them to keep what they do - otherwise you're rewarding parasitic behavior.
Any behavior you reward, you get more of - it's a iron law that is much stronger than 'rights'. |
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If we stopped handing out money for free, people wouldn't feel so entitled to free things. Instead of calling it benefits, call it government community work. If you sign on and have a trade or skill or are even able bodied you should have to work in your community for your government 'wage'. Clean up your town, help paint schools or care for those less fortunate. It would give people a purpose and something to do and help your local community. And if you put something 8nto the community, you would be less likely to take away from it or destroy it.
But no one should be able to take what isnt yours. Its called respect. In times like these, community spirit should be alive and thankfully most people do help others.
We shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing.And especially not for adding to the chaos.
In context to the OP, No, there are many options to arrive at before stealing becomes necessary. And I don't think we will hit those times here. Hard times define your character. Its when you have to stand up and do things you didn't even know you were capable of. |
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By *oo32Man
over a year ago
tipperary |
"Please re read the main post again I'm not talking about last night. I'm referring to rhetorically if we had a blizzard lasting 2/3 weeks please re read the main post fully. Plus someone mentioned emergency aid this country is so backward how good would it be? "
Some of those dickheads dont need an excuse....they do it because they can...and backward as opposed to where |
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By *ohng69Man
over a year ago
athenry |
"If we stopped handing out money for free, people wouldn't feel so entitled to free things. Instead of calling it benefits, call it government community work. If you sign on and have a trade or skill or are even able bodied you should have to work in your community for your government 'wage'. Clean up your town, help paint schools or care for those less fortunate. It would give people a purpose and something to do and help your local community. And if you put something 8nto the community, you would be less likely to take away from it or destroy it.
But no one should be able to take what isnt yours. Its called respect. In times like these, community spirit should be alive and thankfully most people do help others.
We shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing.And especially not for adding to the chaos.
In context to the OP, No, there are many options to arrive at before stealing becomes necessary. And I don't think we will hit those times here. Hard times define your character. Its when you have to stand up and do things you didn't even know you were capable of."
Excellent post. Couldn't have said it better myself |
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"Two to three weeks is alot different to two to three days. There would always be emergency aid at that stage anyway and I'm sure these stores would be the first to hand out food for free if that was the case. The people who did that in Dublin were just scumbags. That wasn't even an isolated incident. Centra was targetted too and there was also a video of youths driving around a stolen dump truck. Scumbags saw the opportunity to take advantage with gardai not around as much. "
and around a dozen cars torched in tallaght
but hey scum gona scum |
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"Ok was reading through a thread there on what is a scumbag and somebody posted the people looting in Jobstown, but rhetorically speaking say perhaps we had 2/3 weeks of heavy snow in a country like ours that can't cope with snow and people can't make it to work or businesses close and people lose wages because of these snow days and they still have their families to provide for.
Remembering that most people are only a few wage packets away from poverty.
If these people go out looting for food and essential items in an over worked, over priced and under paid society does this make them scumbags that they would try and look after their family?
And another thing all these snow days etcetera who doors the bill there Joe bloggs loosing a days wages because the government are not fit to clear and keep the roads clear? "
Yes, if they went looting for food and essential items then at least they could say they did it out of desperation (although there is no excuse for taking what isn't yours) but when they're walking out with items like alcohol or breaking in with a JCB and taking the safe then that isn't desperation, it's just pure greed without any regards for morals or decency. They are scumbags, the feral vermin if their society, plain and simple. I hope the judges make an example out of them. |
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By *adame BWoman
over a year ago
C'est moi Boudoir |
Great thread. Modern and western society has long since been proven as not very civilised! People have become more distant with close proximity and access, I dread to think of a scenario like this and how it would play out. Yes the majority will claim that they are decent but just take the panic buying as an example, very few thoughts about the next person when panic, self preservation and greed come into play.
Society is based on community and this country for the last ten years or so has been progressively hitting community level at it's core.
Doing a deed is a selfless act and yet we are flooded with reports all over social media of people posting what they have done, looking for appreciation which in my opinion detracts from the deed.
Do the deed and let that be enough to know that you are decent.
Looting in desperation is not necessary in a country like ours, there are other resolution's, even if it doesn't seem like it at the time. |
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The looting was not done for necessity but greed from thugs out for their own gain.Nothing can justify this.
I would suggest you think of those poor Lidle workers that may end up out of work because of the selfish rections of a these thugs. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Great thread. Modern and western society has long since been proven as not very civilised! People have become more distant with close proximity and access, I dread to think of a scenario like this and how it would play out. Yes the majority will claim that they are decent but just take the panic buying as an example, very few thoughts about the next person when panic, self preservation and greed come into play.
Society is based on community and this country for the last ten years or so has been progressively hitting community level at it's core.
"
You have to admit, the disappearance of the Pub and the Church, two community based institutions, it's a problem.
You need some replacement or people won't interact - it can't be taken for granted that it 'just happens'.
Even in ancient times there existed community areas for various activities, theaters, debating, local markets - a lot of that sort of thing has become formalized to the point they're exclusive clubs, there has to be a public space, the way we feel like we have one online.
Secularism is all very well but unless it evolves community functions that aren't based around alcohol there's going to be this giant void that ignores whenever there is predatory people or people who fall through the cracks.
"Great thread. Modern and western society has long since been proven as not very civilised!"
Getting worse I agree but we're still head and shoulders above most other countries to be honest, including our nearest neighbour England.
I think the essential problem is that we're a victim of our economic success, we don't need to rely on each other as much. I don't like thinking that because it makes it into a hard problem to solve but it's probably right.
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I would suggest you think of those poor Lidle workers that may end up out of work because of the selfish rections of a these thugs."
And the efforts of the employees and others who made the stolen items. It's like insurance fraud - when the victim is everybody by a little bit it's easier to rationalize you haven't done anything harmful. |
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By *adame BWoman
over a year ago
C'est moi Boudoir |
"Great thread. Modern and western society has long since been proven as not very civilised! People have become more distant with close proximity and access, I dread to think of a scenario like this and how it would play out. Yes the majority will claim that they are decent but just take the panic buying as an example, very few thoughts about the next person when panic, self preservation and greed come into play.
Society is based on community and this country for the last ten years or so has been progressively hitting community level at it's core.
You have to admit, the disappearance of the Pub and the Church, two community based institutions, it's a problem.
You need some replacement or people won't interact - it can't be taken for granted that it 'just happens'.
Even in ancient times there existed community areas for various activities, theaters, debating, local markets - a lot of that sort of thing has become formalized to the point they're exclusive clubs, there has to be a public space, the way we feel like we have one online.
Secularism is all very well but unless it evolves community functions that aren't based around alcohol there's going to be this giant void that ignores whenever there is predatory people or people who fall through the cracks.
Great thread. Modern and western society has long since been proven as not very civilised!
Getting worse I agree but we're still head and shoulders above most other countries to be honest, including our nearest neighbour England.
I think the essential problem is that we're a victim of our economic success, we don't need to rely on each other as much. I don't like thinking that because it makes it into a hard problem to solve but it's probably right.
"
 |
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"
I would suggest you think of those poor Lidle workers that may end up out of work because of the selfish rections of a these thugs.
And the efforts of the employees and others who made the stolen items. It's like insurance fraud - when the victim is everybody by a little bit it's easier to rationalize you haven't done anything harmful."
I've re-read this several times and still can't understand what you're saying...  |
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No stealing to save your life should not be a crime.
In Italy they made it not a crime and released a homeless man for stealing bread with a sorry for putting him through the ordeal of court.
I would like to think that the goverment would do the stealing for us, and force the companies to load up army trucks with food about to spoil and drive out and deliver it to people. In a situation where that did not happen, then stealing is okay with me. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"If we stopped handing out money for free, people wouldn't feel so entitled to free things. Instead of calling it benefits, call it government community work. If you sign on and have a trade or skill or are even able bodied you should have to work in your community for your government 'wage'. Clean up your town, help paint schools or care for those less fortunate. It would give people a purpose and something to do and help your local community. And if you put something 8nto the community, you would be less likely to take away from it or destroy it.
But no one should be able to take what isnt yours. Its called respect. In times like these, community spirit should be alive and thankfully most people do help others.
We shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing.And especially not for adding to the chaos.
In context to the OP, No, there are many options to arrive at before stealing becomes necessary. And I don't think we will hit those times here. Hard times define your character. Its when you have to stand up and do things you didn't even know you were capable of."
Government Community work: invest work into the community, it's genius. Gives purpose, instills pride of place. Utterly genius. Well said. |
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I have a vastly different view of the world than all of you.
If I see someone stabbed and bleeding out, I am putting them in my car and breaking every law to get them to hospital.
If I come across a group of people close to death from hunger, I am breaking into a shop and getting them food.
If I come across a little girl in the middle of the street having an allergic reaction and I can go into a pharmacy and steal the medicine to save her life, I am going in and stealing it.
And due to good samaritan rule, I wouldn't even get in trouble.
It's really bad most people would watch me die instead of breaking a law to do the right thing. But makes sense I guess. |
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By *squaredCouple
over a year ago
Dublin/westmeath/kildare |
Greed & not need drove people in Dublin. Centra was robbed, lidl was smashed open & safe taken, dozens of cars burned.
I've seen lotters post of fb their takings which had nothing to do with need- opportunity & greed was all.
Garda rediverted to cover that area more & people who NEED their help are left stranded. Heard of elderly couple who ran out of fuel & where snowed in, eventually got help. Heard of garda helping people get meals in wheels, this is where help is NEEDED.
There are food banks & some shops open, there was no need. If let get away with it no point in talking about 2/3 weeks as they will have taken everything out of greed.
What's next pharmacy looting as I need med's? How much alcohol & smokes were looted?
I remember knocking in on neighbours during bad weather years ago, haven't seen that this time, where has respect gone?
Looting is looting & it's wrong 1/2/3 weeks down line, there are other options out there.
Think of all the people who worked in that lidl, depended on that pay check, supplier, customers, delivery people etc who lose out all because of greed. In video their clothes weren't torn & hanging on by thread - pure boredom & greed. I've worked with homeless people who know meaning of hunger & still had more respect.
Thankfully we still had power or these scenes would have been seen earlier - out of boredom - never mind 2/3 weeks.
Emergency strikes elsewhere aid is sent it would be same here - issue isn't hunger it is boredom & what people will do when they are. |
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"I have a vastly different view of the world than all of you.
If I see someone stabbed and bleeding out, I am putting them in my car and breaking every law to get them to hospital.
If I come across a group of people close to death from hunger, I am breaking into a shop and getting them food.
If I come across a little girl in the middle of the street having an allergic reaction and I can go into a pharmacy and steal the medicine to save her life, I am going in and stealing it.
And due to good samaritan rule, I wouldn't even get in trouble.
It's really bad most people would watch me die instead of breaking a law to do the right thing. But makes sense I guess."
I think most people would agree with you and back you up on what you have posted,but the events that sparked this forum post do not encompass anything you have mentioned. The events in question were merely scumbags doing what scumbags do. There is a marked difference in being a good samaritan and being a looting scumbag skanger who due to their actions have put people out of work and left a community without an amenity. If it did indeed come to a situation where peoples lives were in jeopardy due to food shortages then I would have no hesitation in backing people "looting" food and essentials,but demolishing a building,robbing gel insoles robbing booze and electroinc goods??? |
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"I have a vastly different view of the world than all of you.
If I see someone stabbed and bleeding out, I am putting them in my car and breaking every law to get them to hospital.
If I come across a group of people close to death from hunger, I am breaking into a shop and getting them food.
If I come across a little girl in the middle of the street having an allergic reaction and I can go into a pharmacy and steal the medicine to save her life, I am going in and stealing it.
And due to good samaritan rule, I wouldn't even get in trouble.
It's really bad most people would watch me die instead of breaking a law to do the right thing. But makes sense I guess."
Very heroic outlook if slightly ill narrow minded and uninformed. Few things to take the weight of the world off your shoulders, if you stole medicine from a pharmacy to give to someone you would probably kill them faster. The good Samaritan rule wouldn't apply in this case as you are untrained and you would more than likely do more harm than good and be charged with assault for harming the person more. The law has changed so the pharmacists can give the medication now or Call a first responder, the don't ask for hero status and carry epiadrenaline auto-injector pens.
Next up, there are people starving around the country every day, when wad the last time you volunteered to hand out blankets or food ?. Most people who do it dont brag about it.
What makes you think the rest of us would leave a dying person bleeding out in the street . If you really want to help people do the first responder course. Its very rewarding |
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By *oserMan
over a year ago
where the wild roses grow |
"If we stopped handing out money for free, people wouldn't feel so entitled to free things. Instead of calling it benefits, call it government community work. If you sign on and have a trade or skill or are even able bodied you should have to work in your community for your government 'wage'. Clean up your town, help paint schools or care for those less fortunate. It would give people a purpose and something to do and help your local community. And if you put something 8nto the community, you would be less likely to take away from it or destroy it.
But no one should be able to take what isnt yours. Its called respect. In times like these, community spirit should be alive and thankfully most people do help others.
We shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing.And especially not for adding to the chaos.
In context to the OP, No, there are many options to arrive at before stealing becomes necessary. And I don't think we will hit those times here. Hard times define your character. Its when you have to stand up and do things you didn't even know you were capable of.
Government Community work: invest work into the community, it's genius. Gives purpose, instills pride of place. Utterly genius. Well said."
Here here |
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"If we stopped handing out money for free, people wouldn't feel so entitled to free things. Instead of calling it benefits, call it government community work. If you sign on and have a trade or skill or are even able bodied you should have to work in your community for your government 'wage'. Clean up your town, help paint schools or care for those less fortunate. It would give people a purpose and something to do and help your local community. And if you put something 8nto the community, you would be less likely to take away from it or destroy it.
But no one should be able to take what isnt yours. Its called respect. In times like these, community spirit should be alive and thankfully most people do help others.
We shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing.And especially not for adding to the chaos.
In context to the OP, No, there are many options to arrive at before stealing becomes necessary. And I don't think we will hit those times here. Hard times define your character. Its when you have to stand up and do things you didn't even know you were capable of.
Government Community work: invest work into the community, it's genius. Gives purpose, instills pride of place. Utterly genius. Well said."
Thanks, I've long been an advocate of this. Unemployment drops to zero and pride and respect instilled. Every community improves, money gets saved on services, and everyone starts to take pride in the community. And if you dont do it, you dont get paid! And everyone would stop others from taking away their hard work. Seems like a perfect solution to me |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I have a vastly different view of the world than all of you.
If I see someone stabbed and bleeding out, I am putting them in my car and breaking every law to get them to hospital.
If I come across a group of people close to death from hunger, I am breaking into a shop and getting them food.
If I come across a little girl in the middle of the street having an allergic reaction and I can go into a pharmacy and steal the medicine to save her life, I am going in and stealing it.
And due to good samaritan rule, I wouldn't even get in trouble.
It's really bad most people would watch me die instead of breaking a law to do the right thing. But makes sense I guess."
Those fall under extenuating circumstances. |
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"If we stopped handing out money for free, people wouldn't feel so entitled to free things. Instead of calling it benefits, call it government community work. If you sign on and have a trade or skill or are even able bodied you should have to work in your community for your government 'wage'. Clean up your town, help paint schools or care for those less fortunate. It would give people a purpose and something to do and help your local community. And if you put something 8nto the community, you would be less likely to take away from it or destroy it.
But no one should be able to take what isnt yours. Its called respect. In times like these, community spirit should be alive and thankfully most people do help others.
We shouldn't be rewarded for doing nothing.And especially not for adding to the chaos.
In context to the OP, No, there are many options to arrive at before stealing becomes necessary. And I don't think we will hit those times here. Hard times define your character. Its when you have to stand up and do things you didn't even know you were capable of.
Government Community work: invest work into the community, it's genius. Gives purpose, instills pride of place. Utterly genius. Well said.
Thanks, I've long been an advocate of this. Unemployment drops to zero and pride and respect instilled. Every community improves, money gets saved on services, and everyone starts to take pride in the community. And if you dont do it, you dont get paid! And everyone would stop others from taking away their hard work. Seems like a perfect solution to me"
It does sound like the perfect option except the problem is this...many of these people would harm or injury themselves during the community work with the aim of suing and getting a pay out.Ive discussed this alot with the local councillors and tds at election time and all agree it should be done but the reality is they will end up trying to make money out of it wrongly.As one man said...if I gave one of them a lawnmower to cut the local park then before long he'd be back with a chopped finger and suing the state for lack of training and injuries received as a result. |
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