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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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The quote is by Carl Sagan about America but certainly resonates with me as a generalisation on spciety more than ever in the current climate.
The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive in the enormously influential media : lowest common denominator programming , credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"The quote is by Carl Sagan about America but certainly resonates with me as a generalisation on spciety more than ever in the current climate.
The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive in the enormously influential media : lowest common denominator programming , credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance. "
It's so true isn't it. Ignorant and proud. Some people wear it like a badge of honour. Evidence, facts, expertise are all questioned now. Feelings matter more than facts.
This is Issac Asimov's take on it;
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
It's so true isn't it. Ignorant and proud. Some people wear it like a badge of honour. Evidence, facts, expertise are all questioned now. Feelings matter more than facts.
This is Issac Asimov's take on it;
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
"
I havven't seen that quote before. It is very true as you said.
I wonder would his sentiment be stronger if Newton lived in at a time when info was so easily available on the net (good & bad). |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"
It's so true isn't it. Ignorant and proud. Some people wear it like a badge of honour. Evidence, facts, expertise are all questioned now. Feelings matter more than facts.
This is Issac Asimov's take on it;
“Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
I havven't seen that quote before. It is very true as you said.
I wonder would his sentiment be stronger if Newton lived in at a time when info was so easily available on the net (good & bad)."
Part of the problem is too much information, which is ironic. It doesn't help that either that people have been let down by the pillars of our society. |
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By (user no longer on site) OP
over a year ago
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"
Part of the problem is too much information, which is ironic. It doesn't help that either that people have been let down by the pillars of our society. "
You are spot on. Too many people have poor choices that fill in their cognitive biases. For instance Fox news is virtually a state run propoganda machine for the right wing. They use the "Jesus" card perfectly with their viewers. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"
Part of the problem is too much information, which is ironic. It doesn't help that either that people have been let down by the pillars of our society.
You are spot on. Too many people have poor choices that fill in their cognitive biases. For instance Fox news is virtually a state run propoganda machine for the right wing. They use the "Jesus" card perfectly with their viewers."
Any ideas on how it can be countered? The media has so much responsibility in this regard. They promote the shouty populists that appeal to the lowest common denominator. Does the likes of George Hook, Joe Duffy or Stephen Nolan promote debate or incite division? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"
Part of the problem is too much information, which is ironic. It doesn't help that either that people have been let down by the pillars of our society.
You are spot on. Too many people have poor choices that fill in their cognitive biases. For instance Fox news is virtually a state run propoganda machine for the right wing. They use the "Jesus" card perfectly with their viewers.
Any ideas on how it can be countered? The media has so much responsibility in this regard. They promote the shouty populists that appeal to the lowest common denominator. Does the likes of George Hook, Joe Duffy or Stephen Nolan promote debate or incite division?"
Bring up your kids with the concept that doubt is a crucial driver for human development |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Great thread... There are a few problems as I see it.
As humans and society we have severe biases, blind spots, sensitivities and crowd behaviours that can be and are increasingly manipulated by the media.
The same same erosion of culture globally (globalisation)
The americanisation of Ireland.
Anti-intellectualism = feelings before all else = left wing ideals that are pervasive in the current media and discourse and act to oversensitive and weaken society (while not doing doing half enough/casually ignoring real oppression)
The cure... Ignore the news, read books and get off social media. Do you best to learn about lying with statistics. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"Great thread... There are a few problems as I see it.
As humans and society we have severe biases, blind spots, sensitivities and crowd behaviours that can be and are increasingly manipulated by the media.
The same same erosion of culture globally (globalisation)
The americanisation of Ireland.
Anti-intellectualism = feelings before all else = left wing ideals that are pervasive in the current media and discourse and act to oversensitive and weaken society (while not doing doing half enough/casually ignoring real oppression)
The cure... Ignore the news, read books and get off social media. Do you best to learn about lying with statistics. "
Are you saying that you think anti-itellectualism is solely a left wing ideal? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Are you saying that you think anti-itellectualism is solely a left wing ideal?"
Absolutely not but in Ireland we are relatively free from right wing extremes while the left is the voice of the media currently. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Actually let me accurate... Anti intellectualism isn't an ideal of itself but leftist policies tend to be characterised by anti-intellualism (often unintentional and wrapped in a blanket of pseudoscience to make it look factual) |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"Actually let me accurate... Anti intellectualism isn't an ideal of itself but leftist policies tend to be characterised by anti-intellualism (often unintentional and wrapped in a blanket of pseudoscience to make it look factual) "
Everything you describe there screams American conservative republican, and not always unintentional. I don't think you can push this bogeyman as only being from one side. Are parts of the left guilty of it? I would say yes. Are parts of the right? Most definitely yes.
But thanks for the clarification. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Yeah but let's drop the American Conservative republic shite for a minute.
We are in Ireland and should mind our own business a bit better and stop obsessing over trump. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Part of the problem is too much information, which is ironic. It doesn't help that either that people have been let down by the pillars of our society.
You are spot on. Too many people have poor choices that fill in their cognitive biases. For instance Fox news is virtually a state run propoganda machine for the right wing. They use the "Jesus" card perfectly with their viewers.
Any ideas on how it can be countered? The media has so much responsibility in this regard. They promote the shouty populists that appeal to the lowest common denominator. Does the likes of George Hook, Joe Duffy or Stephen Nolan promote debate or incite division?"
I feel these social commentators while they can highlight certain issues to the masses can also be responsible for fanning the flames of hysteria. While the focus is on smaller issues the big boys continue to rule the world unnoticed almost |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"
Part of the problem is too much information, which is ironic. It doesn't help that either that people have been let down by the pillars of our society.
You are spot on. Too many people have poor choices that fill in their cognitive biases. For instance Fox news is virtually a state run propoganda machine for the right wing. They use the "Jesus" card perfectly with their viewers.
Any ideas on how it can be countered? The media has so much responsibility in this regard. They promote the shouty populists that appeal to the lowest common denominator. Does the likes of George Hook, Joe Duffy or Stephen Nolan promote debate or incite division?
I feel these social commentators while they can highlight certain issues to the masses can also be responsible for fanning the flames of hysteria. While the focus is on smaller issues the big boys continue to rule the world unnoticed almost "
Those commentators only job is to weaponise outrage. Nothing gets the phones hopping and the links clicked like good 'ol outrage. Most of the time they are just actors and con men. Some play the part so long they believe their own shit.
You don't even have to look past this forum as an example. Reactionary threads will hit 175 replies in no time. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Also I'd appreciate some examples of the left pushing an anti intellectual agenda in this country, so I can understand where you're coming from. "
I'll give you one you will love (hate) and probably react emotionally too.
The gender pay gap:
1 Ticks the emotions box - half of society certainly don't want to be underpaid for what is between their legs - I would be angry too
2 It leverages a generalisation - Women are underpaid X% on average - Women work until X month for free
This is the poster slogan to get under people's skin - it's true (on average) but hold your horses and lets not jump to conclusions
3 When broken down by type of job, experience, time worked, level of work etc... In other words categorised and looked at case by case it is found to be even with no systematic sexism*
This is the finding of economists and business bodies like IBEC in Ireland.
*There are of course a minority of cases that are the result of real sexist pig attitudes but thankfully we have laws for this.
So there we have
1 the emotional angle
2 the half truth
3 the ignorance of experts who give the more complicated, slightly harder to comprehend but ultimately correct version of reality
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Part of the problem is too much information, which is ironic. It doesn't help that either that people have been let down by the pillars of our society.
You are spot on. Too many people have poor choices that fill in their cognitive biases. For instance Fox news is virtually a state run propoganda machine for the right wing. They use the "Jesus" card perfectly with their viewers.
Any ideas on how it can be countered? The media has so much responsibility in this regard. They promote the shouty populists that appeal to the lowest common denominator. Does the likes of George Hook, Joe Duffy or Stephen Nolan promote debate or incite division?
I feel these social commentators while they can highlight certain issues to the masses can also be responsible for fanning the flames of hysteria. While the focus is on smaller issues the big boys continue to rule the world unnoticed almost
Those commentators only job is to weaponise outrage. Nothing gets the phones hopping and the links clicked like good 'ol outrage. Most of the time they are just actors and con men. Some play the part so long they believe their own shit.
You don't even have to look past this forum as an example. Reactionary threads will hit 175 replies in no time. "
While everyone comments on the outrage the more serious issues are ignored ... unfortunately it's how the world works and why the big guys and gals get away with quietly controlling us all |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
I feel these social commentators while they can highlight certain issues to the masses can also be responsible for fanning the flames of hysteria. While the focus is on smaller issues the big boys continue to rule the world unnoticed almost
Those commentators only job is to weaponise outrage. Nothing gets the phones hopping and the links clicked like good 'ol outrage. Most of the time they are just actors and con men. Some play the part so long they believe their own shit.
You don't even have to look past this forum as an example. Reactionary threads will hit 175 replies in no time. "
Yes but ironically outrage was weapinised against George Hook was it not? |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Actually let me accurate... Anti intellectualism isn't an ideal of itself but leftist policies tend to be characterised by anti-intellualism (often unintentional and wrapped in a blanket of pseudoscience to make it look factual) "
Right wing extremes are very much held dear by our politicians, they just cloak them in their leftist Psychobabble so the oppressed believe they are fighting their corner, when in fact all they are doing is creating a climate of social deprivation to keep those oppressed in their place whilst lining the pockets of the most wealthy.
The Labour party were a fantastic example.
Journalism in Ireland can only be described in a simplified term, as piss poor. Bedfellows of the government and politicians that spoon feed the nation that this is what we need more of. Sure it's gonna be a long hard road but your children will thank us for it and so will you. I find it an unbearable chore to sit through the Irish news as a result.
As Abraham Lincoln once said "Not everything you read on the internet is true".
And why does most of your threads deviate to sexism in Ireland all the time? Your train of thought is almost fixated with it. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"
I feel these social commentators while they can highlight certain issues to the masses can also be responsible for fanning the flames of hysteria. While the focus is on smaller issues the big boys continue to rule the world unnoticed almost
Those commentators only job is to weaponise outrage. Nothing gets the phones hopping and the links clicked like good 'ol outrage. Most of the time they are just actors and con men. Some play the part so long they believe their own shit.
You don't even have to look past this forum as an example. Reactionary threads will hit 175 replies in no time.
Yes but ironically outrage was weapinised against George Hook was it not? "
If we were to agree that it was, then in this instance I'm not sure that it's a bad thing. I knew George in a professional capacity years ago and let's just say he's not the most respectful to women.
Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy in my opinion. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"
I feel these social commentators while they can highlight certain issues to the masses can also be responsible for fanning the flames of hysteria. While the focus is on smaller issues the big boys continue to rule the world unnoticed almost
Those commentators only job is to weaponise outrage. Nothing gets the phones hopping and the links clicked like good 'ol outrage. Most of the time they are just actors and con men. Some play the part so long they believe their own shit.
You don't even have to look past this forum as an example. Reactionary threads will hit 175 replies in no time.
Yes but ironically outrage was weapinised against George Hook was it not? "
Brexit in my opinion was a right wing coup, they created divisions and exploited fears all for a power grab. This will have a massive impact on the entire island of Ireland. Irelands economy will take a hit, we will see the return of the border which could well see people reforming the band. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
Superflash, ad for thoughts on the gender pay gap "myth", personally I can't speak to it as I'm a man and I've not experienced it. So I'm going to put a pin in it for now.
I know for a fact Gem has some strong opinions on it but she doesn't post on the forums. I may speak to her and come back with a rebuttal. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"
I feel these social commentators while they can highlight certain issues to the masses can also be responsible for fanning the flames of hysteria. While the focus is on smaller issues the big boys continue to rule the world unnoticed almost
Those commentators only job is to weaponise outrage. Nothing gets the phones hopping and the links clicked like good 'ol outrage. Most of the time they are just actors and con men. Some play the part so long they believe their own shit.
You don't even have to look past this forum as an example. Reactionary threads will hit 175 replies in no time.
Yes but ironically outrage was weapinised against George Hook was it not?
Brexit in my opinion was a right wing coup, they created divisions and exploited fears all for a power grab. This will have a massive impact on the entire island of Ireland. Irelands economy will take a hit, we will see the return of the border which could well see people reforming the band."
That country is going to be fucked by brexit and they're too arrogant to see it. If it wasn't going to have such a knock on effect for ourselves I'd say let them learn the hard way. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Right wing extremes are very much held dear by our politicians, they just cloak them in their leftist Psychobabble so the oppressed believe they are fighting their corner, when in fact all they are doing is creating a climate of social deprivation to keep those oppressed in their place whilst lining the pockets of the most wealthy.
The Labour party were a fantastic example.
Journalism in Ireland can only be described in a simplified term, as piss poor. Bedfellows of the government and politicians that spoon feed the nation that this is what we need more of. Sure it's gonna be a long hard road but your children will thank us for it and so will you. I find it an unbearable chore to sit through the Irish news as a result.
As Abraham Lincoln once said "Not everything you read on the internet is true".
And why does most of your threads deviate to sexism in Ireland all the time? Your train of thought is almost fixated with it."
I agree with you on the politicians (except for some of the new breed who appear to be drinking koolaid).
Its not so much about sexism - I care about feminism overegging the pudding - views that need to be guarded in modern society for fear of being a "woman hater" - but I can speak my mind here with some anonymity. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Superflash, ad for thoughts on the gender pay gap "myth", personally I can't speak to it as I'm a man and I've not experienced it. So I'm going to put a pin in it for now.
I know for a fact Gem has some strong opinions on it but she doesn't post on the forums. I may speak to her and come back with a rebuttal. "
I don't want to debate... I just wanted to make the case of the emotional angle being overused.
But hey it works.... Much to my dismay reason isn't the most persuasive currency but emotion sells like hotcakes.
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"Superflash, ad for thoughts on the gender pay gap "myth", personally I can't speak to it as I'm a man and I've not experienced it. So I'm going to put a pin in it for now.
I know for a fact Gem has some strong opinions on it but she doesn't post on the forums. I may speak to her and come back with a rebuttal.
I don't want to debate... I just wanted to make the case of the emotional angle being overused.
But hey it works.... Much to my dismay reason isn't the most persuasive currency but emotion sells like hotcakes.
"
Fair enough, but for right now I'm not accepting that argument as viable. I'm still gonna call it a myth. |
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Slightly off topic, but then again it kind of points to the ill in society whereby there is a lack of intellectual reflection on serious issues.
Richard Dawkins recently said he should not have been allowed a vote in the Brexit referendum. His reasoning is that he knew fuck all about it..so why was he asked to vote in the first place. He wasn't being deliberately funny, he was being sincere. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"Do you accept that it's an emotive subject? "
Aren't all subjects emotive to a degree? Part of our opinions and decisions are based on emotions.
We're not Vulcans.
So yes I would accept it's an emotive subject but I think the point you're trying to make is that emotions are overshadowing it.
I'm not necessarily agreeing with that. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Slightly off topic, but then again it kind of points to the ill in society whereby there is a lack of intellectual reflection on serious issues.
Richard Dawkins recently said he should not have been allowed a vote in the Brexit referendum. His reasoning is that he knew fuck all about it..so why was he asked to vote in the first place. He wasn't being deliberately funny, he was being sincere. "
I agree with him.
Democracy + advanced media spin gives us a fundamentally flawed system.
I haven't figured out an answer but in some way voters need to be proven competent to make a decision.
Turkeys voting for Christmas
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"Slightly off topic, but then again it kind of points to the ill in society whereby there is a lack of intellectual reflection on serious issues.
Richard Dawkins recently said he should not have been allowed a vote in the Brexit referendum. His reasoning is that he knew fuck all about it..so why was he asked to vote in the first place. He wasn't being deliberately funny, he was being sincere.
I agree with him.
Democracy + advanced media spin gives us a fundamentally flawed system.
I haven't figured out an answer but in some way voters need to be proven competent to make a decision.
Turkeys voting for Christmas
"
Now that, I think, I can agree with you on. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"Slightly off topic, but then again it kind of points to the ill in society whereby there is a lack of intellectual reflection on serious issues.
Richard Dawkins recently said he should not have been allowed a vote in the Brexit referendum. His reasoning is that he knew fuck all about it..so why was he asked to vote in the first place. He wasn't being deliberately funny, he was being sincere.
I agree with him.
Democracy + advanced media spin gives us a fundamentally flawed system.
I haven't figured out an answer but in some way voters need to be proven competent to make a decision.
Turkeys voting for Christmas
"
So called 'identity politics' is cancerous. It doesn't matter what the "*ism" is. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"Slightly off topic, but then again it kind of points to the ill in society whereby there is a lack of intellectual reflection on serious issues.
Richard Dawkins recently said he should not have been allowed a vote in the Brexit referendum. His reasoning is that he knew fuck all about it..so why was he asked to vote in the first place. He wasn't being deliberately funny, he was being sincere.
I agree with him.
Democracy + advanced media spin gives us a fundamentally flawed system.
I haven't figured out an answer but in some way voters need to be proven competent to make a decision.
Turkeys voting for Christmas
So called 'identity politics' is cancerous. It doesn't matter what the "*ism" is."
I disagree. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"I agree wholeheartedly - there is an unconstructive them and us element in every "ism"."
Then it sounds like you just want a throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"There are a few bad apples, that means I disagree with the whole movement."
Real life is not 4chan, people. C'mon. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"I agree wholeheartedly - there is an unconstructive them and us element in every "ism".
Then it sounds like you just want a throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"There are a few bad apples, that means I disagree with the whole movement."
Real life is not 4chan, people. C'mon."
Identity politcs is the easiest way to create division. E.G. Milosevic, Farage, Paisley, Trump...... |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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I'll take your analogy and say that a few bad apples have caused a good tree to rot to its core 
I don't know what 4chan is
If feminism was a political party it needs a good coup, shake up rebounding and a new manifesto. Then I'd get behind it fully.
Time to get back to the real business of equality (to replace the current supplication of the whims of already privileged women in the west) |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I agree wholeheartedly - there is an unconstructive them and us element in every "ism".
Then it sounds like you just want a throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"There are a few bad apples, that means I disagree with the whole movement."
Real life is not 4chan, people. C'mon.
Identity politcs is the easiest way to create division. E.G. Milosevic, Farage, Paisley, Trump......"
Now we are talking. Horrible destructive forces but the powers at be love the distraction. |
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"I'll take your analogy and say that a few bad apples have caused a good tree to rot to its core
I don't know what 4chan is
If feminism was a political party it needs a good coup, shake up rebounding and a new manifesto. Then I'd get behind it fully.
Time to get back to the real business of equality (to replace the current supplication of the whims of already privileged women in the west) "
Could we leave gender aside, Flash? we have done this dance to death. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"I agree wholeheartedly - there is an unconstructive them and us element in every "ism".
Then it sounds like you just want a throw the baby out with the bathwater.
"There are a few bad apples, that means I disagree with the whole movement."
Real life is not 4chan, people. C'mon.
Identity politcs is the easiest way to create division. E.G. Milosevic, Farage, Paisley, Trump......"
With those examples, yes. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
Time to get back to the real business of equality (to replace the current supplication of the whims of already privileged women in the west)
Wow."
Only one wow..
I was hoping for a wow just wow
What I'm getting at is that it's hard to listen to talk of oppression from a well educated girl with an 800 euro phone in one hand and a 4 euro coffee in the other.
#lastword |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"
Time to get back to the real business of equality (to replace the current supplication of the whims of already privileged women in the west)
Wow.
Only one wow..
I was hoping for a wow just wow
What I'm getting at is that it's hard to listen to talk of oppression from a well educated girl with an 800 euro phone in one hand and a 4 euro coffee in the other.
#lastword"
There are degrees of oppression. |
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"Also I'd appreciate some examples of the left pushing an anti intellectual agenda in this country, so I can understand where you're coming from.
I'll give you one you will love (hate) and probably react emotionally too.
The gender pay gap:
1 Ticks the emotions box - half of society certainly don't want to be underpaid for what is between their legs - I would be angry too
2 It leverages a generalisation - Women are underpaid X% on average - Women work until X month for free
This is the poster slogan to get under people's skin - it's true (on average) but hold your horses and lets not jump to conclusions
3 When broken down by type of job, experience, time worked, level of work etc... In other words categorised and looked at case by case it is found to be even with no systematic sexism*
This is the finding of economists and business bodies like IBEC in Ireland.
*There are of course a minority of cases that are the result of real sexist pig attitudes but thankfully we have laws for this.
So there we have
1 the emotional angle
2 the half truth
3 the ignorance of experts who give the more complicated, slightly harder to comprehend but ultimately correct version of reality
"
As far as I recall the gender pay gap in Ireland is recognised by all political parties as a reality, and not just by the left leaning. To raise this issue in public necessitates presenting facts which may incur an emotional reaction, and so it should. This was done by all parties.
Is it not a fact and not a generalisation that women are underpaid when compared to men in Ireland? How is this a half truth?
An expert will give an explanation in terms that they understand, because some do not understand, and I include myself here, does not mean that they are wrong, as you correctly state. You bringing this up reminds me of the Dunning- Kruger effect. A good read if interested.
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By *oggoneMan
over a year ago
Derry |
"
Time to get back to the real business of equality (to replace the current supplication of the whims of already privileged women in the west)
Wow.
Only one wow..
I was hoping for a wow just wow
What I'm getting at is that it's hard to listen to talk of oppression from a well educated girl with an 800 euro phone in one hand and a 4 euro coffee in the other.
#lastword"
I enjoy our conversations, in many ways we are quite similar but I think we disagree on how to go forward. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"
There are degrees of oppression.
Will then we agree.
"
Are you saying that if a woman can afford an iPhone and a 4 euro coffee should should count her blessings and shut the hell up? Cos that's how it's coming across. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"
There are degrees of oppression.
Will then we agree.
Are you saying that if a woman can afford an iPhone and a 4 euro coffee should should count her blessings and shut the hell up? Cos that's how it's coming across. "
That's how you reword one statement for more emotion
I'm just getting at having a sense of perspective in the world |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Also I'd appreciate some examples of the left pushing an anti intellectual agenda in this country, so I can understand where you're coming from.
I'll give you one you will love (hate) and probably react emotionally too.
The gender pay gap:
1 Ticks the emotions box - half of society certainly don't want to be underpaid for what is between their legs - I would be angry too
2 It leverages a generalisation - Women are underpaid X% on average - Women work until X month for free
This is the poster slogan to get under people's skin - it's true (on average) but hold your horses and lets not jump to conclusions
3 When broken down by type of job, experience, time worked, level of work etc... In other words categorised and looked at case by case it is found to be even with no systematic sexism*
This is the finding of economists and business bodies like IBEC in Ireland.
*There are of course a minority of cases that are the result of real sexist pig attitudes but thankfully we have laws for this.
So there we have
1 the emotional angle
2 the half truth
3 the ignorance of experts who give the more complicated, slightly harder to comprehend but ultimately correct version of reality
As far as I recall the gender pay gap in Ireland is recognised by all political parties as a reality, and not just by the left leaning. To raise this issue in public necessitates presenting facts which may incur an emotional reaction, and so it should. This was done by all parties.
Is it not a fact and not a generalisation that women are underpaid when compared to men in Ireland? How is this a half truth?
An expert will give an explanation in terms that they understand, because some do not understand, and I include myself here, does not mean that they are wrong, as you correctly state. You bringing this up reminds me of the Dunning- Kruger effect. A good read if interested.
"
I've sworn off debating this. But the half truth is using an average across an entire population - Does it mean systematic oppression (despite a legal frame work against it) or does it point to the choices people make on average?
I'll leave you to do the hard thinking while I go Google that effect you mentioned. |
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By *ohnandGemCouple
over a year ago
Louth/Meath/Dublin |
"
There are degrees of oppression.
Will then we agree.
Are you saying that if a woman can afford an iPhone and a 4 euro coffee should should count her blessings and shut the hell up? Cos that's how it's coming across.
That's how you reword one statement for more emotion
I'm just getting at having a sense of perspective in the world "
Then I'll rephrase. Just because it's hard for you to listen doesn't mean they don't have an argument.
I think that's fundamentally what it is. There's not enough listening. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Here's the question... is feeling oppressed the same as actually being oppressed?
Maybe to the person... But to society?
Now consider that feeling comes from perception and then think about media spin.
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"Also I'd appreciate some examples of the left pushing an anti intellectual agenda in this country, so I can understand where you're coming from.
I'll give you one you will love (hate) and probably react emotionally too.
The gender pay gap:
1 Ticks the emotions box - half of society certainly don't want to be underpaid for what is between their legs - I would be angry too
2 It leverages a generalisation - Women are underpaid X% on average - Women work until X month for free
This is the poster slogan to get under people's skin - it's true (on average) but hold your horses and lets not jump to conclusions
3 When broken down by type of job, experience, time worked, level of work etc... In other words categorised and looked at case by case it is found to be even with no systematic sexism*
This is the finding of economists and business bodies like IBEC in Ireland.
*There are of course a minority of cases that are the result of real sexist pig attitudes but thankfully we have laws for this.
So there we have
1 the emotional angle
2 the half truth
3 the ignorance of experts who give the more complicated, slightly harder to comprehend but ultimately correct version of reality
As far as I recall the gender pay gap in Ireland is recognised by all political parties as a reality, and not just by the left leaning. To raise this issue in public necessitates presenting facts which may incur an emotional reaction, and so it should. This was done by all parties.
Is it not a fact and not a generalisation that women are underpaid when compared to men in Ireland? How is this a half truth?
An expert will give an explanation in terms that they understand, because some do not understand, and I include myself here, does not mean that they are wrong, as you correctly state. You bringing this up reminds me of the Dunning- Kruger effect. A good read if interested.
I've sworn off debating this. But the half truth is using an average across an entire population - Does it mean systematic oppression (despite a legal frame work against it) or does it point to the choices people make on average?
I'll leave you to do the hard thinking while I go Google that effect you mentioned. "
Deal with one thing at a time.
Using statistical information is not the same as a half truth . The gender pay gap exists,nothing half way about it.
If you can accept that it exists then yes there is a pay bias in general;systematic oppression as you put it, but organised I doubt.
You Are right that there are laws to ensure equal pay ,but this is only were the jobs are equal and both males and females are able to do that job.
I think that what the gender pay gap reveals is that women usually leave work or work part time to becomes for family,beit kids , parent etc or stay in lower paid and flexible careers to facilitate their role in the household, note how I say usually,some men also do this, I don't know statistically if I am correct on this but am sure someone could let me know, just my perspective based on personal experiences. |
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"You are on the right track. This is a good thread so if you want to debate the page gap - open a new topic on please. "
Eh? 
Thanks for your acknowledgment, you brought gender pay gap up, I was commenting on that, why would I want to start a new thread? SMH indeed.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"You are on the right track. This is a good thread so if you want to debate the page gap - open a new topic on please.
Eh?
Thanks for your acknowledgment, you brought gender pay gap up, I was commenting on that, why would I want to start a new thread? SMH indeed. "
Sorry if I came across badly.
I could get into all day but I think others don't want to have their thread detracted from. |
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Very interesting posts there guys.
Moving back to the OP...Sagan mentioned superstition. Interesting Spicer comment the other day saying the best thing to do now is pray for the victims of the recent shooting. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's the question... is feeling oppressed the same as actually being oppressed?
Maybe to the person... But to society?
Now consider that feeling comes from perception and then think about media spin.
Yes, imho. Oppression is a state of mind surely. I feel oppressed but others in the same situation are blissfully unaware. They have a different perception of the same facts.
"
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One of the problems I find is being asked to vote on an issue, and not knowing the ins and outs of said issue. For me having two opposition parties trying to tell me how to vote is wrong. Surely people should be given independent information without a slant enabling you to make an educated choice.
Unfortunately we live in a world where people put more faith in something on the Internet than looking for the truth. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Here's the question... is feeling oppressed the same as actually being oppressed?
Maybe to the person... But to society?
Now consider that feeling comes from perception and then think about media spin.
Yes, imho. Oppression is a state of mind surely. I feel oppressed but others in the same situation are blissfully unaware. They have a different perception of the same facts.
"
OK but can you see that there are cases where the elastic between someone's perception and reality is overstretched?
Do you pander to those who shout loudest or to those who need most help? |
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"One of the problems I find is being asked to vote on an issue, and not knowing the ins and outs of said issue. For me having two opposition parties trying to tell me how to vote is wrong. Surely people should be given independent information without a slant enabling you to make an educated choice.
Unfortunately we live in a world where people put more faith in something on the Internet than looking for the truth. "
The referendum commission produces independent unbiased information for each referendum we have. It's usually presented in the way of leaflets delivered to each household as well as tv adverts. |
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