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Road Racing in Ulster and Ireland
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By *andytown OP Man
over a year ago
Gods Own Country |
Following a meeting about the increase in insurance costs to stage events across the province, the whole of the race meetings have been cancelled at this point 
No more NW200, Armoy, Cookstown, Tandragee etc able to run 
I'd hope that our Southern union has better luck and can continue.
Is this the final nail in the coffin of our great national sport  |
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By *imherkkCouple
over a year ago
Co Kilkenny |
Big in the scene for years and years both competing and helping in the background. This happened again a few years ago, no insurance made a deal for three years. So that's three years to find another insurance company or were mcui just expecting them to renew again after they were told it wouldn't be happening. |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
"Silly question maybe... but can't they just put the price up to cover the additional insurance premiums?"
Theoretically yes but you reach a tipping point where the competitors (who pay the entry fee) can no longer afford it.
Now you might ask - what about sponsorship - these events already have that and need that money to cover other costs like road closing, equipment, medical, feeding marshals etc etc.
You wouldnt believe how expensive one of these events is to run and then when you almost tripple the insurance to become a 6 figure sum for 2 days racing - you reach the tipping point.
Its a sad sad day.
The corporations are running this world, deciding how we live our lives and governments are their henchmen |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
"Makes sense. Do attendees watch this for free? "
No they pay to gain entry but again - that money goes to cover running costs which are enormous.
A lot of these events run with budgets in high 6 figures and bearly make a profit or even somtimes loose a small amout of money that the club has to absorb.
And remember - the vast majority of the organising is done by volunteers who need to hold down day jobs too.
Easy to see how the tipping point is reached then.
This is a massive blow to areas where these events take place |
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I guess my take would be that an event like this should be able to financually stand on its own feet, and that if attendees and participants aren't willing or able to pay what it takes to cover its costs then it should be allowed to die naturally. Set the price at a level that will cover the costs and see if people will pay... if they don't then its obviously not important enough to find the money for and is unviable. I wouldn't be blaming the insurance company. I can only imagine the level of risk here is. very high. If they priced it too high then someone else could come in with a lower quote. The fact the no-one has means that risk / price isn't far above the market. |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
"I guess my take would be that an event like this should be able to financually stand on its own feet, and that if attendees and participants aren't willing or able to pay what it takes to cover its costs then it should be allowed to die naturally. Set the price at a level that will cover the costs and see if people will pay... if they don't then its obviously not important enough to find the money for and is unviable. I wouldn't be blaming the insurance company. I can only imagine the level of risk here is. very high. If they priced it too high then someone else could come in with a lower quote. The fact the no-one has means that risk / price isn't far above the market."
Again theoretically yes... but ... there is a wider impact. These events bring 1000s of visitors who spend vast amounts of money in local and often rural areas that depend on the event as a major part of their annual turnover.
Then there are all the companies who build and prepare the bikes - if bikes cant race they go out of business
Then there are the young riders who are looking to make a career out of riding or even just grow their skills - how can they develop if there is no racing.
Imagine if the OP had posted that horse racing was not going ahead this year as they could not secure insurance.... do you think Horse Racing Ireland would be left to their own devices to try and save the event/sport??? |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
Also just to note - the insurance company can set what ever price they like when they are the only ones willing to quote....
The risk factor may not be proportional to the profit being made if you get me |
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By *oghunter33Woman
over a year ago
on the hill NordWest of |
"I guess my take would be that an event like this should be able to financually stand on its own feet, and that if attendees and participants aren't willing or able to pay what it takes to cover its costs then it should be allowed to die naturally. Set the price at a level that will cover the costs and see if people will pay... if they don't then its obviously not important enough to find the money for and is unviable. I wouldn't be blaming the insurance company. I can only imagine the level of risk here is. very high. If they priced it too high then someone else could come in with a lower quote. The fact the no-one has means that risk / price isn't far above the market."
Ya, I don't really agree with this. I've no insight about road racing, but I've seen and heard enough about insurance and their rip off culture. Additionally we have that (adapted) American culture of people suing businesses/events for every fart and the legal industry happily exploiting this income stream. Add brexit and therefore a reduced competion in the insurance market and the situation gets even worse.
All this has a knock on effect on many industries/events. I've seen many businesses and events disappear for this exact reason, not able to afford their insurance anymore because massive insurance hikes after a single claim or simply because there's not enough competition. |
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I completely agree with regards the horse racing industry. The subsidies are scandalous.
Insurance is unfortunately a fact of life... my public liability is way up this year and I've had to absorb it for now.
If you want someone to blame, then I'd put it at the feet of those who look for massive payouts by feigning and exaggerating injury which forces up premiums. |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
"I completely agree with regards the horse racing industry. The subsidies are scandalous.
Insurance is unfortunately a fact of life... my public liability is way up this year and I've had to absorb it for now.
If you want someone to blame, then I'd put it at the feet of those who look for massive payouts by feigning and exaggerating injury which forces up premiums."
Agreed - and the judges who award these ridiculous payouts.
It will never change as long as the solicitors are on a % of the award and the judges are former solicitors/barristers themselves... its like shooting fish in a barrell for the ambulance chasing section of the legal profession |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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According to the BBC report one main contributing factor in the rise in cost has been the recent payouts with loss of lives, in particular the last TT where 6 died. The organisers state premiums for this year have risen 3 fold just for public liabilities. |
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"According to the BBC report one main contributing factor in the rise in cost has been the recent payouts with loss of lives, in particular the last TT where 6 died. The organisers state premiums for this year have risen 3 fold just for public liabilities."
Jesus.. 6 dead. That's shocking. I'm surprised that would be allowed to operate at all. Kinda justifies the insurance issues. |
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"Silly question maybe... but can't they just put the price up to cover the additional insurance premiums?"
I’ve read where the insurance company has an increased the premium from 150,000 to 400,000 . A price increase like that is unsustainable! A sad day for motorcycle racing in Ireland . |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"According to the BBC report one main contributing factor in the rise in cost has been the recent payouts with loss of lives, in particular the last TT where 6 died. The organisers state premiums for this year have risen 3 fold just for public liabilities.
Jesus.. 6 dead. That's shocking. I'm surprised that would be allowed to operate at all. Kinda justifies the insurance issues."
There was one year where a lot more died. It started to change perceptions around the road racing scenes. Many called for limiters to the speeds but that never happened as it seemed speed was the priority over skill, manufactures and some competitors lobbied against it but there's the increased risk and cost.
At what point though does the moral dilemma trump the cost?
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By *andytown OP Man
over a year ago
Gods Own Country |
"According to the BBC report one main contributing factor in the rise in cost has been the recent payouts with loss of lives, in particular the last TT where 6 died. The organisers state premiums for this year have risen 3 fold just for public liabilities.
Jesus.. 6 dead. That's shocking. I'm surprised that would be allowed to operate at all. Kinda justifies the insurance issues.
There was one year where a lot more died. It started to change perceptions around the road racing scenes. Many called for limiters to the speeds but that never happened as it seemed speed was the priority over skill, manufactures and some competitors lobbied against it but there's the increased risk and cost.
At what point though does the moral dilemma trump the cost?
"
I get the moral dilemma, I really do. But those that have this feeling aren't the guys and girls who are racing.
It's very much the outsiders who don't compete, sponsor, volunteer or even go to watch the sport.
I stand with those who wish to compete on their terms at a sport they very much love
 |
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I guess thats your conflict right there between those who are passionate about the sport at any risk, and those who pick up the bills for that risk when things go wrong.
F1 somehow managed to massively reduce risk and is still very popular. |
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"I guess thats your conflict right there between those who are passionate about the sport at any risk, and those who pick up the bills for that risk when things go wrong.
F1 somehow managed to massively reduce risk and is still very popular."
F1 is a multi billion dollar industry and Irish road racing is mainly funded by sponsors and by the racers themselves . There are no other sports that I know of, where the participant has to pay to compete. |
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"I guess thats your conflict right there between those who are passionate about the sport at any risk, and those who pick up the bills for that risk when things go wrong.
F1 somehow managed to massively reduce risk and is still very popular.
F1 is a multi billion dollar industry and Irish road racing is mainly funded by sponsors and by the racers themselves . There are no other sports that I know of, where the participant has to pay to compete. "
What does that have to do with reducing the risk. It sounds to me like risk reduction is essential in order to allow events to be able to afford to continue. Not to mention the potential risk to life. |
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By *adylaceWoman
over a year ago
Waterford City |
Irish rallying has been facing these pressures for years. I've lost count of how many times it has almost come to the end and I've seen many events have to cancel because the projected revenue from entries coming in wasn't going to cover the cost of the insurance never mind all the other costs. It's sad to see that sports people love are being put under these pressures. But I feel the only thing that will solve it if the rules on law suits are tightened up. I've seen people sue because they witnessed a bad crash at a rally. They got no injuries, just witnessed it and claimed for the trauma. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"According to the BBC report one main contributing factor in the rise in cost has been the recent payouts with loss of lives, in particular the last TT where 6 died. The organisers state premiums for this year have risen 3 fold just for public liabilities.
Jesus.. 6 dead. That's shocking. I'm surprised that would be allowed to operate at all. Kinda justifies the insurance issues.
There was one year where a lot more died. It started to change perceptions around the road racing scenes. Many called for limiters to the speeds but that never happened as it seemed speed was the priority over skill, manufactures and some competitors lobbied against it but there's the increased risk and cost.
At what point though does the moral dilemma trump the cost?
I get the moral dilemma, I really do. But those that have this feeling aren't the guys and girls who are racing.
It's very much the outsiders who don't compete, sponsor, volunteer or even go to watch the sport.
I stand with those who wish to compete on their terms at a sport they very much love
"
I don't think those who race are immuned to the moral dilemma at all. I'd say many of them face it and fight with it even more so as it's more real to them than those outside and not directly in conflict with it. They are the ones that have and face the greatest lost.
Those who sponsor may not have the same moral dilemma as it's all about money, profit and exposure and they are a few steps away from it. Corporates rarely exercise moral dilemmas.
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"I guess thats your conflict right there between those who are passionate about the sport at any risk, and those who pick up the bills for that risk when things go wrong.
F1 somehow managed to massively reduce risk and is still very popular.
F1 is a multi billion dollar industry and Irish road racing is mainly funded by sponsors and by the racers themselves . There are no other sports that I know of, where the participant has to pay to compete.
What does that have to do with reducing the risk. It sounds to me like risk reduction is essential in order to allow events to be able to afford to continue. Not to mention the potential risk to life."
F1 can afford it , road racing can’t ! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I guess thats your conflict right there between those who are passionate about the sport at any risk, and those who pick up the bills for that risk when things go wrong.
F1 somehow managed to massively reduce risk and is still very popular.
F1 is a multi billion dollar industry and Irish road racing is mainly funded by sponsors and by the racers themselves . There are no other sports that I know of, where the participant has to pay to compete. "
I agree here. There's no comparison at all. F1 funding is unlimited through their type of sponsorship, advertising, following and exposure. Road racing is at the other extreme. Like comparing world boxing and street fighting worlds apart. |
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By *adylaceWoman
over a year ago
Waterford City |
"Rallying can't afford to reduce risk? Then rallying needs to prepare to not exist if it can't pay the price of that risk (insurance)."
Rallying has done a huge amount over the last few years to reduce risk on the stages and thankfully there has been a huge reduction in incidents involving injury but rally cars crash and its hard to stop people from trying to claim when all they did was witness the crash. |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
"Rallying can't afford to reduce risk? Then rallying needs to prepare to not exist if it can't pay the price of that risk (insurance)."
Easy there now. Youre getting confused. Nobody said rallying cant afford to reduce risk or get insurance. Its motorcycle road racing this debate is on.
Rallying has its insurance in place for 2023 and the season is up and running. Plus rallying has introduced a whole host of risk refuction measures over the last 15 years.
This debate is not about rallying but they are very closely related sports I agree |
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I can absolutely imagine trauma coming from seeing a bad accident where someone was hurt. Reducing the likelihood of that accident and therefore the claim risk and therefore the insurance cost would be the aim. |
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By *adylaceWoman
over a year ago
Waterford City |
"Rallying can't afford to reduce risk? Then rallying needs to prepare to not exist if it can't pay the price of that risk (insurance).
Easy there now. Youre getting confused. Nobody said rallying cant afford to reduce risk or get insurance. Its motorcycle road racing this debate is on.
Rallying has its insurance in place for 2023 and the season is up and running. Plus rallying has introduced a whole host of risk refuction measures over the last 15 years.
This debate is not about rallying but they are very closely related sports I agree"
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"Rallying can't afford to reduce risk? Then rallying needs to prepare to not exist if it can't pay the price of that risk (insurance).
Easy there now. Youre getting confused. Nobody said rallying cant afford to reduce risk or get insurance. Its motorcycle road racing this debate is on.
Rallying has its insurance in place for 2023 and the season is up and running. Plus rallying has introduced a whole host of risk refuction measures over the last 15 years.
This debate is not about rallying but they are very closely related sports I agree"
Oh sorry youre right I was getting confused between the two. |
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By *adylaceWoman
over a year ago
Waterford City |
"I can absolutely imagine trauma coming from seeing a bad accident where someone was hurt. Reducing the likelihood of that accident and therefore the claim risk and therefore the insurance cost would be the aim. "
This conversation is going around in circles. The case I'm talking about just witnessed a crash. Nobody was hurt in this crash. They also chose to go to an event that cars are driving at high speeds at. I'm backing out of this now because I don't want to hijack a thread about road racing. Enjoy your day. |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
"I can absolutely imagine trauma coming from seeing a bad accident where someone was hurt. Reducing the likelihood of that accident and therefore the claim risk and therefore the insurance cost would be the aim.
This conversation is going around in circles. The case I'm talking about just witnessed a crash. Nobody was hurt in this crash. They also chose to go to an event that cars are driving at high speeds at. I'm backing out of this now because I don't want to hijack a thread about road racing. Enjoy your day. "
This ... here here |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Nearly all motorsport in this county is facing similar issues.
Mondello, our only race circuit in the south is having battles with people who’ve recently moved to the area and are trying to have it shut down or restricted to the point that it’s not viable to open anymore. |
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By *andytown OP Man
over a year ago
Gods Own Country |
"Nearly all motorsport in this county is facing similar issues.
Mondello, our only race circuit in the south is having battles with people who’ve recently moved to the area and are trying to have it shut down or restricted to the point that it’s not viable to open anymore. "
What a venue, went down there as a wean with the parents great memories.
British Super Bikes used to do a round there and was a great weekend.
You'd think that when you looked at a house there... You would have seen the bloody big circuit there  |
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By *andytown OP Man
over a year ago
Gods Own Country |
"For years all the different disciplines in motorcycle racing have been subbing the road racing side and it was not right to be fair and now everyone is suffering "
Seriously? Explain please... |
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"For years all the different disciplines in motorcycle racing have been subbing the road racing side and it was not right to be fair and now everyone is suffering
Seriously? Explain please... "
Last year let's say the pot was 150k that is split between all the clubs in Ireland that are affiliated to the MCI a lot of the clubs didn't do any road racing but still pay a share in the pot |
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By *andytown OP Man
over a year ago
Gods Own Country |
"For years all the different disciplines in motorcycle racing have been subbing the road racing side and it was not right to be fair and now everyone is suffering
Seriously? Explain please...
Last year let's say the pot was 150k that is split between all the clubs in Ireland that are affiliated to the MCI a lot of the clubs didn't do any road racing but still pay a share in the pot"
Surely that's a good thing to sustain the long term future though!
If they didn't organise their own races then there must have been a valid reason that season, it maybe their turn soon to be able to run a race whilst others can't |
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"For years all the different disciplines in motorcycle racing have been subbing the road racing side and it was not right to be fair and now everyone is suffering
Seriously? Explain please...
Last year let's say the pot was 150k that is split between all the clubs in Ireland that are affiliated to the MCI a lot of the clubs didn't do any road racing but still pay a share in the pot
Surely that's a good thing to sustain the long term future though!
If they didn't organise their own races then there must have been a valid reason that season, it maybe their turn soon to be able to run a race whilst others can't "
Not when the guy running the Irish side is a millionaire and has been in power since the 70s and all he cares about is the roads and nothing else |
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By *andytown OP Man
over a year ago
Gods Own Country |
"For years all the different disciplines in motorcycle racing have been subbing the road racing side and it was not right to be fair and now everyone is suffering
Seriously? Explain please...
Last year let's say the pot was 150k that is split between all the clubs in Ireland that are affiliated to the MCI a lot of the clubs didn't do any road racing but still pay a share in the pot
Surely that's a good thing to sustain the long term future though!
If they didn't organise their own races then there must have been a valid reason that season, it maybe their turn soon to be able to run a race whilst others can't
Not when the guy running the Irish side is a millionaire and has been in power since the 70s and all he cares about is the roads and nothing else "
You are kind of answering your own argument.
Think about that folks.
And revert back to me about the original points.... Big hugs btw xox |
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"In the US I paid 10 dollars to race all night. You sign your life away but it's that cheap, the spectators also sign the same sheet just incase they get hurt."
That sounds like a great way to handle it. I wonder if the legal system here allows that or if the organisers would still be on the hook for damages. |
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By *ubal1Man
over a year ago
Newry Down |
There is a very simple solution to this insurance problem that was initially adumbrated several years ago, and has now come centre stage: e.g. if the NW 200 costs £500k by way of premium, then charge a fee from Every spsctator.
The vast majority would not object to paying £10 per person.
No insurance; no events. |
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"In the US I paid 10 dollars to race all night. You sign your life away but it's that cheap, the spectators also sign the same sheet just incase they get hurt.
That sounds like a great way to handle it. I wonder if the legal system here allows that or if the organisers would still be on the hook for damages."
Apparently the European Union don't allow it |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"In the US I paid 10 dollars to race all night. You sign your life away but it's that cheap, the spectators also sign the same sheet just incase they get hurt.
That sounds like a great way to handle it. I wonder if the legal system here allows that or if the organisers would still be on the hook for damages.
Apparently the European Union don't allow it "
But they are not in Europe |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
"There is a very simple solution to this insurance problem that was initially adumbrated several years ago, and has now come centre stage: e.g. if the NW 200 costs £500k by way of premium, then charge a fee from Every spsctator.
The vast majority would not object to paying £10 per person.
No insurance; no events. "
They pay in already but as explained earlier the insurance is just one component of a major event like this. All the other peices cost major money to organise too. Its not cheap to close down a 6 square mile peice of the countryside and turn it into a racetrack.
So to recap - both the specatators and competitors already pay well to fund these events and sponsors give generously - but to ask any of these for anymore - it reaches breaking point.
And at end of the day - its been allowed to get that way due to poor laws which allow a claim culture and insurance companies are terrified of this |
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By *ndqtMan
over a year ago
The Wild West |
"I’ll agree with you but if someone looses a loved one
And she/he are sitting there rearing the kids on their own and the spectators go home
Mmm"
When they get on the bikes they accept the risk.
No different to climbing on the back of a race horse, going free style rock climbing or base jumping... you accept the risk
Anyway - a lot of people seem to be confused with whats being discussed.
Its the PL insurance that cant be secured. That doesnt cover the competitors - just the pubkic and land owners.
The competitor cover is actually available believe it or not and is being put in place at moment to allow riders go compete in other juristictions |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"I’ll agree with you but if someone looses a loved one
And she/he are sitting there rearing the kids on their own and the spectators go home
Mmm
When they get on the bikes they accept the risk.
No different to climbing on the back of a race horse, going free style rock climbing or base jumping... you accept the risk
Anyway - a lot of people seem to be confused with whats being discussed.
Its the PL insurance that cant be secured. That doesnt cover the competitors - just the pubkic and land owners.
The competitor cover is actually available believe it or not and is being put in place at moment to allow riders go compete in other juristictions"
As in Belgium I presume |
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Former racer (short curcuit) but lots of friends doing the roads and always support road races. To say am gutted this has happened is an understatement. All the costs and time and effort put in by clubs and competitors down the swanny. The clubs barely break even on the costs of running an event, disaster the way insurance has gone but the MCUI is a shambles, needs ripping apart and start again because they are half the reason we are here with their incompetence and blatant lies when asked about securing insurance at a recent AGM. They Knew last December the only insurance company offering cover had walked away from covering motorcycle racing and let on they were still in talks with them when they weren't until it all came out today. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Former racer (short curcuit) but lots of friends doing the roads and always support road races. To say am gutted this has happened is an understatement. All the costs and time and effort put in by clubs and competitors down the swanny. The clubs barely break even on the costs of running an event, disaster the way insurance has gone but the MCUI is a shambles, needs ripping apart and start again because they are half the reason we are here with their incompetence and blatant lies when asked about securing insurance at a recent AGM. They Knew last December the only insurance company offering cover had walked away from covering motorcycle racing and let on they were still in talks with them when they weren't until it all came out today. "
I seriously didn’t know this but there is an opinion in Belgium maybe not for road races but
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Former racer (short curcuit) but lots of friends doing the roads and always support road races. To say am gutted this has happened is an understatement. All the costs and time and effort put in by clubs and competitors down the swanny. The clubs barely break even on the costs of running an event, disaster the way insurance has gone but the MCUI is a shambles, needs ripping apart and start again because they are half the reason we are here with their incompetence and blatant lies when asked about securing insurance at a recent AGM. They Knew last December the only insurance company offering cover had walked away from covering motorcycle racing and let on they were still in talks with them when they weren't until it all came out today. "
I seriously didn’t know this but there is an opinion in Belgium maybe not for road races but
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Former racer (short curcuit) but lots of friends doing the roads and always support road races. To say am gutted this has happened is an understatement. All the costs and time and effort put in by clubs and competitors down the swanny. The clubs barely break even on the costs of running an event, disaster the way insurance has gone but the MCUI is a shambles, needs ripping apart and start again because they are half the reason we are here with their incompetence and blatant lies when asked about securing insurance at a recent AGM. They Knew last December the only insurance company offering cover had walked away from covering motorcycle racing and let on they were still in talks with them when they weren't until it all came out today.
I seriously didn’t know this but there is an opinion in Belgium maybe not for road races but it’s curcir and professional
So get in contact
"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Former racer (short curcuit) but lots of friends doing the roads and always support road races. To say am gutted this has happened is an understatement. All the costs and time and effort put in by clubs and competitors down the swanny. The clubs barely break even on the costs of running an event, disaster the way insurance has gone but the MCUI is a shambles, needs ripping apart and start again because they are half the reason we are here with their incompetence and blatant lies when asked about securing insurance at a recent AGM. They Knew last December the only insurance company offering cover had walked away from covering motorcycle racing and let on they were still in talks with them when they weren't until it all came out today.
I seriously didn’t know this but there is an opinion in Belgium maybe not for road races but it’s curcir and professional
So get in contact
"
will do and I’ll let you know how it works and if it works well then I’ll have to blame Boris |
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