FabSwingers.com > Forums > Ireland > Border Poll
Border Poll
Jump to: Newest in thread
 |
By *asual777Man
over a year ago
i travel all over |
"Had a conversation about this with a guy tonight!
What are people thinking on the matter?
Good? Bad? "
The problem with the brexit referendum is that due diligence did not take place beforehand to ascertain all the different possibilities . Instead of leave/remain it should have asked remain vs a softer option vs a nuclear option with clear communication in terms of what these things mean for the ECJ, NI etc.
A United ireland poll has to follow a similar piece of work . I know for many unification trumps everything , but voters have to know how things will impact on the economy and the Protestant community so it’s not a simple yes or no choice then deal with the fall out later.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ubal1Man
over a year ago
Newry Down |
I have never had, nor expressed, any opinion on the concept of a united Ireland, in the sense of a single political construct that would cover the island of Ireland, because it is such a fraught issue.
If you express an opinion, one way or the other, then it is bound to cause friction, especially when living in the North, where opinions are so divided, usually along religious lines.
Frankly, I could not care less about it, so that as when it occurs, which is probably a fait accompli, an inevitability because Catholics outbreed the members of the so-called Protestant faiths, sects and groupings; that I am left no worse off financially.
The concept of a united Ireland means nothing to me except that those who have strong opinions may stop fighting about it, when it happens ..., and that will be of benefit to the rest of us who do not care! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"I have never had, nor expressed, any opinion on the concept of a united Ireland, in the sense of a single political construct that would cover the island of Ireland, because it is such a fraught issue.
If you express an opinion, one way or the other, then it is bound to cause friction, especially when living in the North, where opinions are so divided, usually along religious lines.
Frankly, I could not care less about it, so that as when it occurs, which is probably a fait accompli, an inevitability because Catholics outbreed the members of the so-called Protestant faiths, sects and groupings; that I am left no worse off financially.
The concept of a united Ireland means nothing to me except that those who have strong opinions may stop fighting about it, when it happens ..., and that will be of benefit to the rest of us who do not care!"
Almost identical to how I feel, yet I keep being told but you MUST prefer one to the other and have a preference…and I don’t. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ermbiMan
over a year ago
Ballyshannon |
"A United ireland poll has to follow a similar piece of work . I know for many unification trumps everything , but voters have to know how things will impact on the economy and the Protestant community so it’s not a simple yes or no choice then deal with the fall out later.
"
When the Brits hacked the island in two it was a protestant state for a protestant people. There was no regard for the nationalist community. For many years the nationalists were oppressed with no housing no jobs and no rights. It lives long in the memory and then we have to bow and scrape to what unionists want in a united Ireland. I'm not so sure a lot of people in the North would be open to a list of demands. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *onnrodMan
over a year ago
moira |
"A United ireland poll has to follow a similar piece of work . I know for many unification trumps everything , but voters have to know how things will impact on the economy and the Protestant community so it’s not a simple yes or no choice then deal with the fall out later.
When the Brits hacked the island in two it was a protestant state for a protestant people. There was no regard for the nationalist community. For many years the nationalists were oppressed with no housing no jobs and no rights. It lives long in the memory and then we have to bow and scrape to what unionists want in a united Ireland. I'm not so sure a lot of people in the North would be open to a list of demands. "
And that's the retrogressive attitude on both sides that keeps dragging us backwards into the medieval little shit hole it remains.
Fuck progress as long as 'themuns' don't have it better...
"lives long in the memory" is a reason and a tag line for all the shit we have to put up with here and why we're no further on 26 years after the GFA.
Also, if you think that unionists will be able to make, let alone enforce, a list of demands within a united Ireland then you my friend need to wake up and realise that you will probably always feel bitter and oppressed no matter what political outcome you live under. There's a massive tone of inferiority in your whole post. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ermbiMan
over a year ago
Ballyshannon |
"A United ireland poll has to follow a similar piece of work . I know for many unification trumps everything , but voters have to know how things will impact on the economy and the Protestant community so it’s not a simple yes or no choice then deal with the fall out later.
When the Brits hacked the island in two it was a protestant state for a protestant people. There was no regard for the nationalist community. For many years the nationalists were oppressed with no housing no jobs and no rights. It lives long in the memory and then we have to bow and scrape to what unionists want in a united Ireland. I'm not so sure a lot of people in the North would be open to a list of demands.
And that's the retrogressive attitude on both sides that keeps dragging us backwards into the medieval little shit hole it remains.
Fuck progress as long as 'themuns' don't have it better...
"lives long in the memory" is a reason and a tag line for all the shit we have to put up with here and why we're no further on 26 years after the GFA.
Also, if you think that unionists will be able to make, let alone enforce, a list of demands within a united Ireland then you my friend need to wake up and realise that you will probably always feel bitter and oppressed no matter what political outcome you live under. There's a massive tone of inferiority in your whole post. "
Don't worry I am awake. There will be demands I have no doubt and they will have to be listened to. And I sm neither bitter nor oppressed. That's what reality was and still is under different guises today. No tone of inferiority here mate. U dont know me |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
These debates are always hilarious because they resurrect tired old stereotypes and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else.
I despise politics so I'm not getting into "that" debate but right now the vast majority of people in NI are more concerned about putting bread on the table than they are about whether you keep your toaster in the press
Finding money for essentials is more important than how close your eyes are together.
New shoes for the kids is higher on the list than what foot you kick with.
It's impossible to have a grown up conversation with those who have never grown up. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"These debates are always hilarious because they resurrect tired old stereotypes and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else.
I despise politics so I'm not getting into "that" debate but right now the vast majority of people in NI are more concerned about putting bread on the table than they are about whether you keep your toaster in the press
Finding money for essentials is more important than how close your eyes are together.
New shoes for the kids is higher on the list than what foot you kick with.
It's impossible to have a grown up conversation with those who have never grown up."
Here here !! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"These debates are always hilarious because they resurrect tired old stereotypes and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else.
I despise politics so I'm not getting into "that" debate but right now the vast majority of people in NI are more concerned about putting bread on the table than they are about whether you keep your toaster in the press
Finding money for essentials is more important than how close your eyes are together.
New shoes for the kids is higher on the list than what foot you kick with.
It's impossible to have a grown up conversation with those who have never grown up."
 100% this |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *onnrodMan
over a year ago
moira |
"These debates are always hilarious because they resurrect tired old stereotypes and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else.
I despise politics so I'm not getting into "that" debate but right now the vast majority of people in NI are more concerned about putting bread on the table than they are about whether you keep your toaster in the press
Finding money for essentials is more important than how close your eyes are together.
New shoes for the kids is higher on the list than what foot you kick with.
It's impossible to have a grown up conversation with those who have never grown up."
Exactly!! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ustBoWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere in Co. Down |
"The majority of those voting will have never lived in the north "
And ?
If it ever did happen it will be something that both sides of the border will have to agree on not just one side that has the higher population anyhow  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
The UK government gives NI a block grant of 10 billion sterling every year, a United Ireland sure sounds like a great idea but it would result in people South of the bored paying higher taxes in order to fund it, the block grant will be gone and a study has shown that a sum of 4.5 billion will be enough to keep the North ticking over and that's what the Irish government needs to fund NI which isn't an earth shattering amount either however the people of NI will be at a loss of 5.5 billion sterling a year.. Would they want their living standards to drop to achieve a united Ireland, I very much doubt so, it would be a silly move for everyone north and south financially we will all be worse off not to mention the fact that UDA and other paramilitaries will go crazy if this goes ahead, let's not poke a sleeping bear, and we hear so much talk of catholics outnumbering protestants now well of course the North has seen a huge influx in east Europeans namely Polish who just so happen to be Catholic so these numbers are skewed and are not accurate, they will of course have voting rights which will have tip any decision either way as they are a sizeable cohort.. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *asual777Man
over a year ago
i travel all over |
"The majority of those voting will have never lived in the north
And ?
If it ever did happen it will be something that both sides of the border will have to agree on not just one side that has the higher population anyhow "
I was responding to ‘ and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else’.
Living in the north will not be necessary to vote . It’s not necessary for people to have an opinion on the Matter |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"The majority of those voting will have never lived in the north
And ?
If it ever did happen it will be something that both sides of the border will have to agree on not just one side that has the higher population anyhow
I was responding to ‘ and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else’.
Living in the north will not be necessary to vote . It’s not necessary for people to have an opinion on the Matter "
I didn't mention voting. I'm talking about those who still believe any conversation about NI has been about religion for at least 2 generations. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ustBoWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere in Co. Down |
"The majority of those voting will have never lived in the north
And ?
If it ever did happen it will be something that both sides of the border will have to agree on not just one side that has the higher population anyhow
I was responding to ‘ and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else’.
Living in the north will not be necessary to vote . It’s not necessary for people to have an opinion on the Matter "
And why would that comment upset you so much .It's true those who don't and haven't lived up north quite often think they know best for people who do live up here.
That comment never said they don't get a choice to vote on the matter .And anyone who hasn't lived anywhere else does not know how it would be better for someone else who does live there. That's just common sense really. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *asual777Man
over a year ago
i travel all over |
"The majority of those voting will have never lived in the north
And ?
If it ever did happen it will be something that both sides of the border will have to agree on not just one side that has the higher population anyhow
I was responding to ‘ and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else’.
Living in the north will not be necessary to vote . It’s not necessary for people to have an opinion on the Matter
And why would that comment upset you so much .It's true those who don't and haven't lived up north quite often think they know best for people who do live up here.
That comment never said they don't get a choice to vote on the matter .And anyone who hasn't lived anywhere else does not know how it would be better for someone else who does live there. That's just common sense really."
It doesn’t upset me at all . I am merely clarifying . |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ustBoWoman
over a year ago
Somewhere in Co. Down |
"The majority of those voting will have never lived in the north
And ?
If it ever did happen it will be something that both sides of the border will have to agree on not just one side that has the higher population anyhow
I was responding to ‘ and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else’.
Living in the north will not be necessary to vote . It’s not necessary for people to have an opinion on the Matter
And why would that comment upset you so much .It's true those who don't and haven't lived up north quite often think they know best for people who do live up here.
That comment never said they don't get a choice to vote on the matter .And anyone who hasn't lived anywhere else does not know how it would be better for someone else who does live there. That's just common sense really.
It doesn’t upset me at all . I am merely clarifying ."
Oh I think it's pretty clear now alright  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
So, 42.3% now identify as Catholic and 37.3% identify as Protestant, according to the 2021 Census BUT 20.4% identify as neither Catholic, or Protestant? Also, given that, as mentioned, a proportion (albeit small) that identified as Catholic will not be Irish Catholic, there is no certainty of a majority in any border poll and I don't think there will be a political move for a border poll until there is that certainty? I also feel a section of the Catholic community may not vote for a United Ireland, purely for economic reasons....be it less taxation, free healthcare, or more generous benefits North of the Border.
Yes, the numbers make for good headlines on a quiet news day but remember, there are 3 types of lies.....lies, damned lies and statistics!! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
As said above, the 10billion funding from the UK government is enough to halt any discussion about a border poll at this present time. It would probably suit the UK government to have the sitting government in Dublin fund Northen Ireland from their budget. Brexit was and have proven to be a pie in the sky idea, as not really thought through and the UK government assumed Europe would bend over and take all the stipulations they wanted. Its been proven that the powers that be in Brussels want to make this process so hard for the UK government. So until there is clear and fixed terms of what brexit really means for this Island there should be no thinking of a border poll and for what it is worth, I don't see a united Ireland in the next 30-50years as to many with deep rooted bigotry on both sides up there could see the bad days of thr troubles return |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *og-ManMan
over a year ago
somewhere |
I think it will be hard to agree on the wording of any poll never mind try to discuss an outcome of one
Is a majority equal to 50% of the actual vote plus 1
Or is it the majority of the people entitled to vote plus 1 as some parties are now saying
From a personal point of view the more I visit Belfast and get comfortable driving around and meeting fellow fabbers the more I realise that the people on both sides are more alike than I thought
Then again at the party on Friday I didn't care about their political views just how sexy they looked |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"These debates are always hilarious because they resurrect tired old stereotypes and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else.
I despise politics so I'm not getting into "that" debate but right now the vast majority of people in NI are more concerned about putting bread on the table than they are about whether you keep your toaster in the press
Finding money for essentials is more important than how close your eyes are together.
New shoes for the kids is higher on the list than what foot you kick with.
It's impossible to have a grown up conversation with those who have never grown up."
Totally. More and more the pressing issue will be a financial one. I'd want hard facts. There is so much to untangle. NI contributions, taxes paid, benefits, pensions, access to the NHS (and it's institutions) and continuity of ongoing treatment, school funding, university grants and funding, apprenticeship schemes. And those are just the things off the top of my head that might affect me and my family directly. Romantic idealism is good and dandy but I think we're a long way having all the unification ducks in a row.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ancy38Woman
over a year ago
galway |
"The UK government gives NI a block grant of 10 billion sterling every year, a United Ireland sure sounds like a great idea but it would result in people South of the bored paying higher taxes in order to fund it, the block grant will be gone and a study has shown that a sum of 4.5 billion will be enough to keep the North ticking over and that's what the Irish government needs to fund NI which isn't an earth shattering amount either however the people of NI will be at a loss of 5.5 billion sterling a year.. Would they want their living standards to drop to achieve a united Ireland, I very much doubt so, it would be a silly move for everyone north and south financially we will all be worse off not to mention the fact that UDA and other paramilitaries will go crazy if this goes ahead, let's not poke a sleeping bear, and we hear so much talk of catholics outnumbering protestants now well of course the North has seen a huge influx in east Europeans namely Polish who just so happen to be Catholic so these numbers are skewed and are not accurate, they will of course have voting rights which will have tip any decision either way as they are a sizeable cohort.. "
If the UDA and the likes go crazy they will be dealt with by the same force if not more! They are not a sleeping bear! They where an organisation propped up by the British establishment who waged war on poor innocent catholics in the north. In a united ireland they won't have this support of the British and won't be able carryout the same type of murders that they did through the troubles. Yes they will murder innocent people again but nothing on the scale they once did!
That is a defeatist attitude saying dont go there because a bunch murders with blood lust might go crazy!
There will be a united ireland in our lifetime and unionists will eventually come to terms with it that there'll be no going back. Its that simple! |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The UK government gives NI a block grant of 10 billion sterling every year, a United Ireland sure sounds like a great idea but it would result in people South of the bored paying higher taxes in order to fund it, the block grant will be gone and a study has shown that a sum of 4.5 billion will be enough to keep the North ticking over and that's what the Irish government needs to fund NI which isn't an earth shattering amount either however the people of NI will be at a loss of 5.5 billion sterling a year.. Would they want their living standards to drop to achieve a united Ireland, I very much doubt so, it would be a silly move for everyone north and south financially we will all be worse off not to mention the fact that UDA and other paramilitaries will go crazy if this goes ahead, let's not poke a sleeping bear, and we hear so much talk of catholics outnumbering protestants now well of course the North has seen a huge influx in east Europeans namely Polish who just so happen to be Catholic so these numbers are skewed and are not accurate, they will of course have voting rights which will have tip any decision either way as they are a sizeable cohort..
If the UDA and the likes go crazy they will be dealt with by the same force if not more! They are not a sleeping bear! They where an organisation propped up by the British establishment who waged war on poor innocent catholics in the north. In a united ireland they won't have this support of the British and won't be able carryout the same type of murders that they did through the troubles. Yes they will murder innocent people again but nothing on the scale they once did!
That is a defeatist attitude saying dont go there because a bunch murders with blood lust might go crazy!
There will be a united ireland in our lifetime and unionists will eventually come to terms with it that there'll be no going back. Its that simple!"
Not that long ago you were telling us Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine and that putin was only posturing
As someone said before another person who probably never set foot in Northern Ireland but can tell them what has to be done from an armchair in Co Galway |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The UK government gives NI a block grant of 10 billion sterling every year, a United Ireland sure sounds like a great idea but it would result in people South of the bored paying higher taxes in order to fund it, the block grant will be gone and a study has shown that a sum of 4.5 billion will be enough to keep the North ticking over and that's what the Irish government needs to fund NI which isn't an earth shattering amount either however the people of NI will be at a loss of 5.5 billion sterling a year.. Would they want their living standards to drop to achieve a united Ireland, I very much doubt so, it would be a silly move for everyone north and south financially we will all be worse off not to mention the fact that UDA and other paramilitaries will go crazy if this goes ahead, let's not poke a sleeping bear, and we hear so much talk of catholics outnumbering protestants now well of course the North has seen a huge influx in east Europeans namely Polish who just so happen to be Catholic so these numbers are skewed and are not accurate, they will of course have voting rights which will have tip any decision either way as they are a sizeable cohort..
If the UDA and the likes go crazy they will be dealt with by the same force if not more! They are not a sleeping bear! They where an organisation propped up by the British establishment who waged war on poor innocent catholics in the north. In a united ireland they won't have this support of the British and won't be able carryout the same type of murders that they did through the troubles. Yes they will murder innocent people again but nothing on the scale they once did!
That is a defeatist attitude saying dont go there because a bunch murders with blood lust might go crazy!
There will be a united ireland in our lifetime and unionists will eventually come to terms with it that there'll be no going back. Its that simple!"
But it's really NOT simple is it? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
I'm all for it. Unfortunately the problem is that no one actually knows what unification would entail on a practical basis NHS pensions social housing Tax. I certainly wouldn't want to walk into an enlarged free state Dail. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ancy38Woman
over a year ago
galway |
"The UK government gives NI a block grant of 10 billion sterling every year, a United Ireland sure sounds like a great idea but it would result in people South of the bored paying higher taxes in order to fund it, the block grant will be gone and a study has shown that a sum of 4.5 billion will be enough to keep the North ticking over and that's what the Irish government needs to fund NI which isn't an earth shattering amount either however the people of NI will be at a loss of 5.5 billion sterling a year.. Would they want their living standards to drop to achieve a united Ireland, I very much doubt so, it would be a silly move for everyone north and south financially we will all be worse off not to mention the fact that UDA and other paramilitaries will go crazy if this goes ahead, let's not poke a sleeping bear, and we hear so much talk of catholics outnumbering protestants now well of course the North has seen a huge influx in east Europeans namely Polish who just so happen to be Catholic so these numbers are skewed and are not accurate, they will of course have voting rights which will have tip any decision either way as they are a sizeable cohort..
If the UDA and the likes go crazy they will be dealt with by the same force if not more! They are not a sleeping bear! They where an organisation propped up by the British establishment who waged war on poor innocent catholics in the north. In a united ireland they won't have this support of the British and won't be able carryout the same type of murders that they did through the troubles. Yes they will murder innocent people again but nothing on the scale they once did!
That is a defeatist attitude saying dont go there because a bunch murders with blood lust might go crazy!
There will be a united ireland in our lifetime and unionists will eventually come to terms with it that there'll be no going back. Its that simple!
But it's really NOT simple is it?"
There will be a united ireland sooner rather than later. It is that simple. European will want it, America wants it and the majority of the irish people wants it. Its just we need to start preparing it. It's inevitable it's going to happen. It's been talked about for so long,we just need the break in irish politics north and south then it'll happen. If it doesn't happen in the first referendum (which I believe it will) it will happen in the following referendums. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"The UK government gives NI a block grant of 10 billion sterling every year, a United Ireland sure sounds like a great idea but it would result in people South of the bored paying higher taxes in order to fund it, the block grant will be gone and a study has shown that a sum of 4.5 billion will be enough to keep the North ticking over and that's what the Irish government needs to fund NI which isn't an earth shattering amount either however the people of NI will be at a loss of 5.5 billion sterling a year.. Would they want their living standards to drop to achieve a united Ireland, I very much doubt so, it would be a silly move for everyone north and south financially we will all be worse off not to mention the fact that UDA and other paramilitaries will go crazy if this goes ahead, let's not poke a sleeping bear, and we hear so much talk of catholics outnumbering protestants now well of course the North has seen a huge influx in east Europeans namely Polish who just so happen to be Catholic so these numbers are skewed and are not accurate, they will of course have voting rights which will have tip any decision either way as they are a sizeable cohort..
If the UDA and the likes go crazy they will be dealt with by the same force if not more! They are not a sleeping bear! They where an organisation propped up by the British establishment who waged war on poor innocent catholics in the north. In a united ireland they won't have this support of the British and won't be able carryout the same type of murders that they did through the troubles. Yes they will murder innocent people again but nothing on the scale they once did!
That is a defeatist attitude saying dont go there because a bunch murders with blood lust might go crazy!
There will be a united ireland in our lifetime and unionists will eventually come to terms with it that there'll be no going back. Its that simple!
But it's really NOT simple is it?
There will be a united ireland sooner rather than later. It is that simple. European will want it, America wants it and the majority of the irish people wants it. Its just we need to start preparing it. It's inevitable it's going to happen. It's been talked about for so long,we just need the break in irish politics north and south then it'll happen. If it doesn't happen in the first referendum (which I believe it will) it will happen in the following referendums. "
And I'll say it again. There is nothing simple about it. The last thing anyone in the North wants is another Brexit-like shit show, and that's miniscule compared with the level of extrication that would be required |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ancy38Woman
over a year ago
galway |
"The UK government gives NI a block grant of 10 billion sterling every year, a United Ireland sure sounds like a great idea but it would result in people South of the bored paying higher taxes in order to fund it, the block grant will be gone and a study has shown that a sum of 4.5 billion will be enough to keep the North ticking over and that's what the Irish government needs to fund NI which isn't an earth shattering amount either however the people of NI will be at a loss of 5.5 billion sterling a year.. Would they want their living standards to drop to achieve a united Ireland, I very much doubt so, it would be a silly move for everyone north and south financially we will all be worse off not to mention the fact that UDA and other paramilitaries will go crazy if this goes ahead, let's not poke a sleeping bear, and we hear so much talk of catholics outnumbering protestants now well of course the North has seen a huge influx in east Europeans namely Polish who just so happen to be Catholic so these numbers are skewed and are not accurate, they will of course have voting rights which will have tip any decision either way as they are a sizeable cohort..
If the UDA and the likes go crazy they will be dealt with by the same force if not more! They are not a sleeping bear! They where an organisation propped up by the British establishment who waged war on poor innocent catholics in the north. In a united ireland they won't have this support of the British and won't be able carryout the same type of murders that they did through the troubles. Yes they will murder innocent people again but nothing on the scale they once did!
That is a defeatist attitude saying dont go there because a bunch murders with blood lust might go crazy!
There will be a united ireland in our lifetime and unionists will eventually come to terms with it that there'll be no going back. Its that simple!
Not that long ago you were telling us Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine and that putin was only posturing
As someone said before another person who probably never set foot in Northern Ireland but can tell them what has to be done from an armchair in Co Galway "
I can not remember saying this about Russia however if I did, just because I was wrong on this does not mean I'm wrong about everything!
Amusing you saying about from my armchair in Galway. You don't me nor my families ties to the north although I'm not going to say on am open forum. Just know, I would have more incite to the north than 95% of the members posting on this thread.
With all that said, when I seen the title for this thread I swore I wasn't going to post in it because it just becomes tit for tat and there's no winners. My bad for doing it. I'm not on fab fir this and with this, I won't be posting anymore on this thread. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
As a Catholic born and bred in South Armagh within spitting distance of the border and having to walk through one of the most heavily fortified checkpoints to and from school I think I can speak with authority when I say that all was never as it seemed.
In 1984 the Catholic owned company I worked for was asked to supply a business owned and run by the then leader of the UDA.
In 1991 the company I was managing was invited to supply a number of loyalist clubs which we did without a single incident for almost 10 years.
I've had a gun put to my head by members of Republican groups as many times as I've had it done by members of Loyalist groups and also the British army.
On every single occasion my religion had nothing to do with it. They all wanted to relieve me of the goods and cash I was carrying and on a few occasions, twice in the same week.
Religion has no significance when it comes to the business of making or taking money so all those experts who see everything in black and white really need to take those blinkers off.
Anyone thinking that because we've managed to out ride and had a more productive reproductive policy than our protestant neighbours that a United Ireland is a shoe in needs to give their head a wobble. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *onnrodMan
over a year ago
moira |
"The UK government gives NI a block grant of 10 billion sterling every year, a United Ireland sure sounds like a great idea but it would result in people South of the bored paying higher taxes in order to fund it, the block grant will be gone and a study has shown that a sum of 4.5 billion will be enough to keep the North ticking over and that's what the Irish government needs to fund NI which isn't an earth shattering amount either however the people of NI will be at a loss of 5.5 billion sterling a year.. Would they want their living standards to drop to achieve a united Ireland, I very much doubt so, it would be a silly move for everyone north and south financially we will all be worse off not to mention the fact that UDA and other paramilitaries will go crazy if this goes ahead, let's not poke a sleeping bear, and we hear so much talk of catholics outnumbering protestants now well of course the North has seen a huge influx in east Europeans namely Polish who just so happen to be Catholic so these numbers are skewed and are not accurate, they will of course have voting rights which will have tip any decision either way as they are a sizeable cohort..
If the UDA and the likes go crazy they will be dealt with by the same force if not more! They are not a sleeping bear! They where an organisation propped up by the British establishment who waged war on poor innocent catholics in the north. In a united ireland they won't have this support of the British and won't be able carryout the same type of murders that they did through the troubles. Yes they will murder innocent people again but nothing on the scale they once did!
That is a defeatist attitude saying dont go there because a bunch murders with blood lust might go crazy!
There will be a united ireland in our lifetime and unionists will eventually come to terms with it that there'll be no going back. Its that simple!"
Easy for you to be flippant about a few innocent people being murdered when you didn't have to life your entire life through that scenario being an everyday occurrence. All the while you were playing the plastic patriot nice and safe all the way down in the wesht of Ireland. Who's going to be dealing with them? I'm pretty sure the people of the Republic will love the reality of the Garda being tooled up to deal with the threat or face being picked off at will. It's a horrific prospect that you've obviously never had to consider.
Yes, the Republic does have a vested interest in the border poll and should have a say, but hopefully the decisions will be based on facts and not lazy clichés from armchair historians. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and one opinion is as legitimate as any other.
I think it's fair to say that the majority of people on the Island of Ireland are in favour of the idea of unity but it will ultimately be down to who pays for it, before it becomes a reality?
I don't think it's 40 or 50 years away but neither do I think it's 10 years, or less away.
The only thing we have learnt is that it won't happen by way of coercion, rather by way of persuasion. If it's genuinely for the good of all, why would anyone stand in the way? As things stand, it's only one community's aspiration.....so there's still a lot of persuading to do. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ubal1Man
over a year ago
Newry Down |
From brief conversations with hardened Republicans, I think most would have welcomed the demise of Northern Ireland on the hundredth anniversary of its foundation, which for demographic/psephological reasons is inevitable, but probably not for many years.
Currently, for selfish reasons I would not welcome it: the cost of living, south of the border is perceptibly higher and taxation of all types is also higher.
The adverse reaction of loyalist paramilitaries, even lone wolves is a risk as evidenced by the worst day of the Troubles: the Dublin and Monaghan atrocities. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
As a Northerner living in the south, I rarely engage in these debates. Most in the Republic have little to no idea about the Norn Iron situation. They still hold on to a quasi romantic notion, without understanding the complexities involved in a possible all Ireland scenario.
Personally, I don't see it happening. Economically, it's a non starter. Look at Germany. They are still paying for the cost of reunification 30 years on, and it's a very sore point for many.
Ireland's economy couldn't support an extra 1.5 million people.
Then there's the social/cultural aspects. How does a state absorb a minority that hates it's very existence? How does the education system work? What about jobs?
Politically, how do you redraw constituency boundaries? Where is the parliament? Where is the new capital?
National anthem? National symbols?
How does the state cope with the required changes to the social welfare, healthcare and civil service?
I just don't see it happening. I've no desire to be lumbered with even higher taxes to facilitate such a transition. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
E here. Slightly off topic but one of the reasons I feared brexit was that the paramilitaries would see an opportunity to turn the whole border area into another wild west.
As for a border pole. I think it will definitely happen but as others have said its hugely complicated and not just about the numbers. Dear only knows how any separation would work. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
From the north here, I come from a republican background but I would say no to a “united ireland”. The cost of living in the south is way more expensive than the north. There’s 10000 reasons for it and against it but at the end of the day it’s each persons own opinion…. I do beleave at some point a poll will be called and now is the right time to prepare for the outcome regardless of what it will be  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ermbiMan
over a year ago
Ballyshannon |
Yes there's practical issues to work out. But let's not delude ourselves about a free NHS. Taxes and national insurance contributions pay for it. 20% basic rate tax both jurisdictions. The block grant benefits NI thanks to a large tax population combining the whole of the UK. If taxes from NI workers alone were to fund public services the standard would be much lower. GDP in South much higher in South than North. People need to see and know the stats instead of making sweeping statements they do not understand |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
I think there will be a referendum for a united Ireland well within the next 20 years, maybe even 10. I think it will result in a United Ireland, and unfortunately a return to some level of violence. But I believe it is the will of the people, and it will happen.
|
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes there's practical issues to work out. But let's not delude ourselves about a free NHS. Taxes and national insurance contributions pay for it. 20% basic rate tax both jurisdictions. The block grant benefits NI thanks to a large tax population combining the whole of the UK. If taxes from NI workers alone were to fund public services the standard would be much lower. GDP in South much higher in South than North. People need to see and know the stats instead of making sweeping statements they do not understand"
Of course people know that. NI contributions also fund your contributions based job seekers should you need it, maternity allowance, pensions, bereavement support. I think a huge question for people would be "I've contributed all of my working life to something which I now cannot access". I don't think people are deluded, I think they have very real concerns about access to public services. As an example, if PHI was required to part fund treatment would it cover pre-existing conditions where treatment had previously been provided by the NHS. It's the minutiae that will matter to the average person on the street. Making them out to be thick for not understanding a system they have no experience of is an incredibly unhelpful stance |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *ermbiMan
over a year ago
Ballyshannon |
"Yes there's practical issues to work out. But let's not delude ourselves about a free NHS. Taxes and national insurance contributions pay for it. 20% basic rate tax both jurisdictions. The block grant benefits NI thanks to a large tax population combining the whole of the UK. If taxes from NI workers alone were to fund public services the standard would be much lower. GDP in South much higher in South than North. People need to see and know the stats instead of making sweeping statements they do not understand
Of course people know that. NI contributions also fund your contributions based job seekers should you need it, maternity allowance, pensions, bereavement support. I think a huge question for people would be "I've contributed all of my working life to something which I now cannot access". I don't think people are deluded, I think they have very real concerns about access to public services. As an example, if PHI was required to part fund treatment would it cover pre-existing conditions where treatment had previously been provided by the NHS. It's the minutiae that will matter to the average person on the street. Making them out to be thick for not understanding a system they have no experience of is an incredibly unhelpful stance"
Let's be clear I wasn't making out anyone to be thick and my stance is not one of being unhelpful |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"Yes there's practical issues to work out. But let's not delude ourselves about a free NHS. Taxes and national insurance contributions pay for it. 20% basic rate tax both jurisdictions. The block grant benefits NI thanks to a large tax population combining the whole of the UK. If taxes from NI workers alone were to fund public services the standard would be much lower. GDP in South much higher in South than North. People need to see and know the stats instead of making sweeping statements they do not understand"
The South is bigger, has a higher population, so obviously bigger GDP. NI benefits from the central UK tax pot, in the same manner as Scotland and Wales. If NI became part of a Unified Ireland overnight, the tax burden for everyone in the South, as well as the North, would increase, or do you just cut services in the 6 Counties and continue as normal in the other 26?
We have day to day experience of both systems and undoubtedly residents of the South pay more than those in the North, it's simply a fact. Your car taxation, your toll roads, your pay per visit healthcare system, Professional feed etc it's simply a fact.
Money is and will always be the deciding factor in when any reunification actually happens, forget all the idealism of the aspiration and look at the actual facts.
Just one opinion, of course, as is everyone else's views just their opinion  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"These debates are always hilarious because they resurrect tired old stereotypes and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else.
I despise politics so I'm not getting into "that" debate but right now the vast majority of people in NI are more concerned about putting bread on the table than they are about whether you keep your toaster in the press
Finding money for essentials is more important than how close your eyes are together.
New shoes for the kids is higher on the list than what foot you kick with.
It's impossible to have a grown up conversation with those who have never grown up."
The WAY more generous social welfare system here in the Republic would be something to reassure those people no? |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
I don't think the North would be able to financially support the South lol, and if the welfare system is better in the south just wait to the nordies get their fingers into it there won't be enough to go around  |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"These debates are always hilarious because they resurrect tired old stereotypes and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else.
I despise politics so I'm not getting into "that" debate but right now the vast majority of people in NI are more concerned about putting bread on the table than they are about whether you keep your toaster in the press
Finding money for essentials is more important than how close your eyes are together.
New shoes for the kids is higher on the list than what foot you kick with.
It's impossible to have a grown up conversation with those who have never grown up.
The WAY more generous social welfare system here in the Republic would be something to reassure those people no?"
Not those who aren't in receipt of social welfare. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
Those who are on low incomes have the very generous Working Family Paynent here. Many who didn't get anything in the north will find themselves getting payments now. Also families have much increased child benefit. Carers is higher. Jobseekers is higher. If helping struggling families is the aim them they would be mad to vote against it. Paying for all this is the real issue. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
"Those who are on low incomes have the very generous Working Family Paynent here. Many who didn't get anything in the north will find themselves getting payments now. Also families have much increased child benefit. Carers is higher. Jobseekers is higher. If helping struggling families is the aim them they would be mad to vote against it. Paying for all this is the real issue."
My original point had nothing to do with how or why anyone would vote either way.
It was about the fact that people who have never lived in NI are still under the false impression that the majority of people here are more concerned about whether you are Catholic or Protestant than anything else and always jump on these threads to mansplain to those of us who do live here. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By *og-ManMan
over a year ago
somewhere |
"Thankfully the GFA states that only the people of NI will decide its future. Hands off, No Surrender and all that  "
Thought it was the majority on both sides of the border and not just the people on one side
It's also only The UK government that can call the referendum in the first place |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
|
By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
|
"These debates are always hilarious because they resurrect tired old stereotypes and people who have never lived in the North and in many cases have never even set foot in it believe they know better than everyone else.
I despise politics so I'm not getting into "that" debate but right now the vast majority of people in NI are more concerned about putting bread on the table than they are about whether you keep your toaster in the press
Finding money for essentials is more important than how close your eyes are together.
New shoes for the kids is higher on the list than what foot you kick with.
It's impossible to have a grown up conversation with those who have never grown up.
The WAY more generous social welfare system here in the Republic would be something to reassure those people no?"
It wouldn't be as generous with an extra 250,000 people drawing from the well.
Taxation rates would need to be adjusted. We'd see a huge increase in government borrowing just to cover the social security tab, which is estimated to cost the UK exchequer up to £10bn annually.
And... Any territorial changes would result in Ireland having to change its EU membership, along with the possibility of all EU member states needing to ratify any proposal to bring a 32 county Ireland into its fold.
But, sure, just have a border poll. We'll all sing a load of Wolfe Tones songs and it'll be grand |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
I'm sure the EU ratification would be a purely administrative thing. I can't see anyone with a strong objection there.
You're spot on with the cost issues though. Paying for all this is going to mean some changes. The government won't get away with its "one for everyone in the audience" budgeting once they have to carry the additional costs. |
Reply privately, Reply in forum +quote
or View forums list | |
» Add a new message to this topic
