FabSwingers.com > Forums > Ireland > IRFU trans decision

IRFU trans decision

By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

So on the back of yesterday's decision by the IRFU to ban transwomen from female rugby, what are peoples reactions/opinions to this....

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By *ilthyNightsCouple over a year ago

East / North, Cork

Its a logical decision. I know some will feel left out by it though. Hopefully in time trans women will be able to compete against each other so there is a more equal playing field.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I always said rugby is a tough sport and it takes balls to play it

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By *antra MassageMan over a year ago

South Side.

Common sense wins over PC.

Other sporting bodies should do the same .

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By *exesrangerMan over a year ago

Jameson main bar

It's the right thing to do really, having said that, if you think about it, like really think about it......

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Common sense wins over PC.

Other sporting bodies should do the same . "

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By *ed just RedWoman over a year ago

Dublin City

"I always said rugby is a tough sport and it takes balls to play it

Except transwomen don’t have balls.

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man over a year ago

City Centre, Dublin

Yeah common sense prevails, facts and science over Twitter mob and ideologues.

Although it’s not nice that a small minority get left out but it’s for the greater good.

Thinks it’s a bit mental that wimen who are now men can carry on and play against fellas and get absolutely trampled if they more or less let the IRFU off with any liability

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By *ot neuteredMan over a year ago

Kildare

As someone who has daughters playing rugby, I totally agree with the Irfu, great they had the bottle to do it

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I always said rugby is a tough sport and it takes balls to play it

Except transwomen don’t have balls.

What about the funny shaped one used in the game?

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By *ilthyNightsCouple over a year ago

East / North, Cork

"I always said rugby is a tough sport and it takes balls to play it

Except transwomen don’t have balls.

Many trans women still have testes, some will have the op eventually, some will choose not to. You can still live as a trans woman with your cock and balls intact.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

100percent. Balls/genitalia don't determine the gender as person is

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By *ubeMan over a year ago

Drogheda

It's zbout time someone said no to the PC mob. Yes its not nice we have to leave out a few people, but when someone has an unfair advantage that's not on, there are lots of sports where it's pure skill and male and female can compete against each other, but why would any young lady spend all of her young life training to end up competing against someone with an advantage. It would kill off women's sport, and we are only starting to see them getting treated equally. There is still a long way to go for them it would be a shame to see it implode just to please a very small few.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Dont mind all the pc crac, a biological man "transitioning" would seriously hurt a girl in rugby, at least in soccer and football there is not much tackling and girls could take a bit of it but rugby is a different beast altogether,

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's a sad day for trans rights. There are plenty of studies that confirm that HRT (hormone replacement therapy) will reverse any advantage that a trans person would have. The changes obviously aren't instant, it will take a year or two. As such I'm totally on board that trans athletes that only just started HRT should be excluded, but a more scientific approach would be appreciated. All those supposed advantages (bone density, red blood cell count and muscle mass) are easily quantifiable.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I think it's a very sensible move.

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By *ant111Man over a year ago

Dublin 6

"Yeah common sense prevails, facts and science over Twitter mob and ideologues.

Although it’s not nice that a small minority get left out but it’s for the greater good.

Thinks it’s a bit mental that wimen who are now men can carry on and play against fellas and get absolutely trampled if they more or less let the IRFU off with any liability

"
I wouldn't let them loose with a Hurley anyway.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"It's a sad day for trans rights. There are plenty of studies that confirm that HRT (hormone replacement therapy) will reverse any advantage that a trans person would have. The changes obviously aren't instant, it will take a year or two. As such I'm totally on board that trans athletes that only just started HRT should be excluded, but a more scientific approach would be appreciated. All those supposed advantages (bone density, red blood cell count and muscle mass) are easily quantifiable.

I tend to agree here. In time there will be better measures and sophisticated analysis to ensure fairness is maintained while accommodating gender diversity.

For now, I think the best decision has been made.

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By *liusMan over a year ago

leinster

When human remains are found they are that of a male and female Nothing else period! We need to remember this. I respect people's right to be who they want to be but they have to remember and respect their genetic makeup.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"When human remains are found they are that of a male and female Nothing else period! We need to remember this. I respect people's right to be who they want to be but they have to remember and respect their genetic makeup."

You do realise that there is actually more than just male and female, right? And I'm not talking about gender identity or expression here. I'm talking actual genetics. Please educate yourself on intersexuality before spouting nonsense like that, thanks

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By *liusMan over a year ago

leinster

OK so enlighten me as to what genders there are when human remains are found? I've only heard of two. Male and female but if you can educate me I'm all ears.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Why are you putting 'remains' on some sort of pedestal?

Remains also don't show signs of eye colour, autism, sexual orientation. They're are next to useless in showing signs of human diversity because they're just bones.

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By *onnrodMan over a year ago

moira

I support inclusion as an idea, but like everything else there are exceptions and limits.

It is scientifically recorded that an average man who grows to adulthood will have a higher bone density (app 50% greater in males vs females of comparable size) and muscle mass (40% greater upper body and 33% greater lower body) than an average woman. Hormone treatment will ultimately affect the levels of aggression and the sub conscious tendency to put this advantage to use, but the bottom line is that a transgender female who grew to maturity as a man will have a huge physical advantage in any female sport where size, strength and power are key elements in performance and the reduction of testosterone has less of an affect where performance can be more greatly affected by the conscious decision to use that advantage.

Rugby is going through a storm regarding the injury levels in intermediate and top level competition, particularly in instances of head and neck injuries, and this is in the face of falling numbers of participants world wide in grass roots levels, so if the IRB wants to show that it is being proactive in this area they simply cannot allow a person with this sort of physical advantage to line up against a significantly weaker opponent.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

do people really think that a trans person would get into sports just to have an unfair advantage?

That's so ridiculous, considering how hard it is to be legally recognised as trans in Ireland and receive HRT in the first place.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Bone density is highly affected by hormone therapy, even cis-women that suffer from osteoporosis (severe loss of bone density) are treated with hormones to help restore bone density. Please actual use the internet to educate yourself instead of just watching Netflix

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By *onnrodMan over a year ago

moira

"do people really think that a trans person would get into sports just to have an unfair advantage?

That's so ridiculous, considering how hard it is to be legally recognised as trans in Ireland and receive HRT in the first place.

Intention has absolutely nothing to do with it. Its purely down to physics. It's why there are weight classes in combat sports, which are an even more compelling case against trans female inclusion to fight natural females, as even if the fighters were the same weight, a greater proportion of the trans females weight will be bone and muscle.

You need to take the blinkers off. Yes, trans rights are a hot topic and in most cases I'd say more power to you, but the confines of the situation have to be observed as well and an unfair advantage is still an unfair advantage regardless of the emotions involved.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Bone density is highly affected by hormone therapy, even cis-women that suffer from osteoporosis (severe loss of bone density) are treated with hormones to help restore bone density. Please actual use the internet to educate yourself instead of just watching Netflix

All your shouting and condescending comments-which there is no need for- aren't going to win you this one. The right decision was made.

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By *onnrodMan over a year ago

moira

Don't be condescending just because my argument doesn't suit your lifestyle or identity. I have no agenda in this but I will point you to the following...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6469959/#:~:text=Recent%20data%20from%20transgender%20men,with%20natal%20females%20%5B11%5D.

"In conclusion, long-term CSHT had a neutral effect on BMD in transgender men. In transgender women, no changes in femoral BMD were found, and an increase in lumbar spine BMD was observed after 12 and =24 months of CSHT. Even though all the studies considered were observational, including mostly small samples and diverse hormone protocols, the evidence from the present meta-analyses indicates that BMD is preserved in transgender individuals during CSHT."

In other words, if they're big before transition, they going to be big for a significant amount of time afterwards.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

https://theros.org.uk/information-and-support/osteoporosis/causes/medications-for-transgender-people/

Osteoporosis is one of the many risk factors associated with HRT. Many of the other risks (e.g. high blood pressure) will pretty much make it impossible for a trans person to become a professional athlete anyway.

I believe trans people should not be excluded just because they are trans. Should they have to undergo proper ongoing medical evaluation to compete? Sure, much like doping controls are already in place in many professional sports.

We have always been here, we are not going anywhere and we will archive equality. Trans rights are human rights

Am I condescending, yes. But none of you nay sayers and haters are any better.

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By *onnrodMan over a year ago

moira

Again, you're looking at it purely from a discrimination point of view.

Trans people aren't being excluded "just because they're trans", they're being excluded because of the liklihood that their statistically probable physical advantage is a risk to others in a sport where physical injury is already a key issue.

If you're going to ignore that and just keep going back to "I'm trans I should be allowed to do whatever the hell I want and f**k any other concerned parties" argument, then the discussion is a bit of a dead stick.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

It's not only horses that wear blinkers then.

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By *ateniteCouple over a year ago

Youghal

"https://theros.org.uk/information-and-support/osteoporosis/causes/medications-for-transgender-people/

We have always been here, we are not going anywhere and we will archive equality. Trans rights are human rights

Am I condescending, yes. But none of you nay sayers and haters are any better. "

I'm not an academic and have zero interest in debate but as a rugby coach and father of female rugby players I 100% agree with the IRFU's decision. Trans rights or not, I will not put my daughters safety at risk on the field for the sake of trans rights and as crass as it sounds my daughters will not share dressing rooms with trans men and its a sad day when society allows that.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Again, you're looking at it purely from a discrimination point of view.

Well, if that is the case, then why do they not allow trans athletes that can prove that they have the physical attributes considered normal for their chosen gender? But they don't do that, instead they exclude them outright, which is wrong.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"https://theros.org.uk/information-and-support/osteoporosis/causes/medications-for-transgender-people/

We have always been here, we are not going anywhere and we will archive equality. Trans rights are human rights

Am I condescending, yes. But none of you nay sayers and haters are any better.

Ah yes, the good old fairy tale of trans people being serial killers, rapists, child mole sters and the like

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By *ateniteCouple over a year ago

Youghal

"https://theros.org.uk/information-and-support/osteoporosis/causes/medications-for-transgender-people/

We have always been here, we are not going anywhere and we will archive equality. Trans rights are human rights

Am I condescending, yes. But none of you nay sayers and haters are any better.

Ah yes, the good old fairy tale of trans people being serial killers, rapists, child mole sters and the like

Nope, just don't want my daughter's sharing dressing rooms with men against their will just because society says they have to or because an organisation is afraid to upset a ridiculous liberal movement.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Fair enough, but trans women are not men. Yes, we were not born as women (at least in body) but none the less we are not just men in dresses. I really hope that you will some day get to know trans people and gain a better understanding of who we truly are.

We've all grown up with Hollywood movies that portray trans people as murderers, deceivers , abominations and sexual predators, but these depictions are not the reality at all. At the end of the day we are just humans beings wanting to be who we are, just like everyone else

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

At first I thought this was the correct decision.

Ive had second thoughts though, I was once told that rugby was a sport everyone could play. It didn’t matter if you were tall, short, big, slow, skinny or quick, there was always a position for you. Surely they could assess players on an individual basis?

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By *ilthyNightsCouple over a year ago

East / North, Cork

"At first I thought this was the correct decision.

No... because every player has an opposite on the other team, and that opposite would be at a disadvantage

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By *ateniteCouple over a year ago

Youghal

"At first I thought this was the correct decision.

I know this an extreme example but what position would Tagdh Furlong play if he decided he was trans? Tough to find a position for a guy that would hospitalise every player on the opposition team whether he was a prop or a winger.

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By *ilthyNightsCouple over a year ago

East / North, Cork

"Fair enough, but trans women are not men. Yes, we were not born as women (at least in body) but none the less we are not just men in dresses. I really hope that you will some day get to know trans people and gain a better understanding of who we truly are.

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that trans women are just men in dresses. It's been mostly quite a respectful discussion.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Correct decision. The truth doesn't care about feelings

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By * la carteCouple over a year ago

Dublin

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that trans women are just men in dresses. It's been mostly quite a respectful discussion. "

Indeed, and surprisingly so considering how most of these discussions end in the Lounge.

Of course, Hollywood movies aren't accurate depictions of minorities.

I am a parent of a teen who identifies transgender and therefore have a little understanding of how challenging a life it is.

I have not researched the "data" but intuitively I believe it is the right decision for a sport like rugby in the eyes of safety.

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By *azirlMan over a year ago

Marbella

I know lots of trans people and none of them support the woke mob or are as arrogant as you. They simply want to live life as a man or woman but none of them pretend they wouldn’t have an advantage(mtf) or disadvantage(ftm) when it comes to sports etc they accept the hand they were dealt and just live life without going out of there way to hurt others even it means they can’t do everything.

The top womens teams in sports can’t compete with even mid level boys teams once the boys hit around 14 trying to pretend being trans isn’t an advantage in womens sports is ridiculous.

Women transition to men and get to use testosterone etc but they still can’t compete against even low level men in sports.

You can stop pretending Hollywood etc made trans people out to be the bad guys because in reality it made them out to be victims and people to have sympathy for more than anything else. I can’t think of many movies that describe what you’re claiming at all.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You can't reverse engineer puberty

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Common sense wins over PC.

Other sporting bodies should do the same . "
Absolutely

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

My apologies that I'm posting again, but looking at this from another angle. So the people that are for this change day that this is because trans athletes have an advantage, yes? But that only applies to old farts like myself that decided late in their life to transition. But where does this general trans ban leave the current trans youth that either decided to transition before puberty hit or used puberty blockers to give them more time to transition. These young people never developed that supposed advantage, right? Yet these fine young humans are barred from sports.

I think that the "advantage" reasoning is just a weak cover for the real reason behind this. Money. We all know that professional sports isn't about the game or the players anymore, maybe less drastic when it comes to rugby as compared to soccer. But still money is a huge factor and fear of not being able to line their pockets certainly plays a part in this.

Another hidden reason is shame.

Why shame you say? Wether we admit it or not, the majority of men are mainky interested in women sports not because of the sports, but rather the women. And I do not even see a big problem in this, sure objectifying women is not great but it's just nature at the end of the day. But why shame then? Well, given the fact that Ireland is still a very religious place, I would think that many men are afraid of the simple realization that they are likely not able to tell a cis-woman apart from a trans-woman on TV screen. This nicely leads into the situation that, god forbid, a man might feel sexually attracted to a trans woman. What a shameful thought that must be, attracted to something that you've always been taught to hate

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By *azirlMan over a year ago

Marbella

"My apologies that I'm posting again, but looking at this from another angle. So the people that are for this change day that this is because trans athletes have an advantage, yes? But that only applies to old farts like myself that decided late in their life to transition. But where does this general trans ban leave the current trans youth that either decided to transition before puberty hit or used puberty blockers to give them more time to transition. These young people never developed that supposed advantage, right? Yet these fine young humans are barred from sports.

Another hidden reason is shame.

You’re reaching so far that it’s impossible to take you serious on this topic.

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man over a year ago

City Centre, Dublin

Just to muddy the waters further….

I read in an article that this rule change will affect 2 currently registered players, has anyone asked these players what they think?

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By *oghunter33Woman over a year ago

on the hill NordWest of

I don't have much knowledge about this topic but I followed bit the controversy of that American college swimmer Thomas who competed up until 2019 in the men's team and was ranked midfield, mediocre. Since 2020 she's competing with women and is now ranked 1st in 500yard freestyle and 5th in 200yeard. So it's obvious that she has a physical advantage.

I'm all for equality and inclusion but ya can't achieve equality for some by sacrificing equality of others.

The IRFU's decision is discriminatory towards transgender but the decision is also understandable and reasonable if you set it in a wider context.

Unfortunately until we find a fair way to include everyone in competitive sport will be confronted with those kinda crude decision that we'll leave one side deeply unhappy.

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By *andR2019Couple over a year ago

Nunya

While I feel for the people missing out, I’m in total agreement.

I was a footballer at youth level back in Scotland and most of my friends played rugby for the Scotland youth levels too and I would join in for time to time. I know how hard boys/men play.

The skill gap is massive but that wouldn’t be my worry, my worry is the danger and damage that could be caused and I would not allow my daughter to play if that was the case.

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By * la carteCouple over a year ago

Dublin

Another hidden reason is shame.

Transitioning medically before puberty is an entirely different discussion, and in my opinion, would be an absolutely ghastly thing to allow any minor to decide to do. It is currently still illegal in Ireland, and I for one hope it stays that way. This kind of medical decision is not a decision that a child or teenager can possibly make with fully informed consent and in full awareness of the consequences.

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By *j47Man over a year ago

limerick

"I don't have much knowledge about this topic but I followed bit the controversy of that American college swimmer Thomas who competed up until 2019 in the men's team and was ranked midfield, mediocre. Since 2020 she's competing with women and is now ranked 1st in 500yard freestyle and 5th in 200yeard. So it's obvious that she has a physical advantage.

I'm all for equality and inclusion but ya can't achieve equality for some by sacrificing equality of others.

The IRFU's decision is discriminatory towards transgender but the decision is also understandable and reasonable if you set it in a wider context.

Unfortunately until we find a fair way to include everyone in competitive sport will be confronted with those kinda crude decision that we'll leave one side deeply unhappy. "

Thats it on a nutshell one size does not fit all either way its a hard call and untill we have better ways we have to live with the compermise

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Another hidden reason is shame.

Agree 100% with this.

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man over a year ago

City Centre, Dublin

Another hidden reason is shame.

100% agree

People that age can’t buy a pint or cigarettes but it’s argued that they should be allowed to make a life altering decision, I can’t go along with that

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By *ilthyNightsCouple over a year ago

East / North, Cork

Another hidden reason is shame.

You've crossed over into batshit crazy here

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By *onnrodMan over a year ago

moira

Another hidden reason is shame.

Jesus, you're really reaching now! You accused me of basing my arguments on Netflix, I gave you documented results of a scientific study. So now you're accusing and guessing what people's reasons are for watching sports and their reasons for objecting to trans MTF people competing against natural females, based on nothing more than your own bias.

It sounds like you feel you have to take the side of all trans issues just because you identify that way and therefore you need to ignore valid input to the discussion.

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By *exesrangerMan over a year ago

Jameson main bar

Popcorn....I need popcorn quick

Give it to me.. give it to me now

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Another hidden reason is shame.

As a very active member of the LGBTQIA community I have huge problems taking your points about money and shame seriously.

Who has a fear of not being able to line their pockets and why would that be impacted by allowing trans women pay along side cis-women?

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By *indenMan over a year ago

Naas which is South West of Dublin

I think the decision was the correct one at the moment but like everything, particularly where rugby, safety and rules are concerned, I wouldn’t expect it is set in stone and will be constantly reviewed and or altered as necessary.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

The top womens teams in sports can’t compete with even mid level boys teams once the boys hit around 14 trying to pretend being trans isn’t an advantage in womens sports is ridiculous.

Women transition to men and get to use testosterone etc but they still can’t compete against even low level men in sports.

I can think of Silence of the Lambs and Psycho straight away but there are plenty of others

If you're interested in the portray of trans people in movies there's a really good documentary on Netflix called "Disclosure" about the subject

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man over a year ago

City Centre, Dublin

The top womens teams in sports can’t compete with even mid level boys teams once the boys hit around 14 trying to pretend being trans isn’t an advantage in womens sports is ridiculous.

Women transition to men and get to use testosterone etc but they still can’t compete against even low level men in sports.

I can think of Silence of the Lambs and Psycho straight away but there are plenty of others

If you're interested in the portray of trans people in movies there's a really good documentary on Netflix called "Disclosure" about the subject "

In the theme of equality and all that, sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

How many straight white men are baddies in films?

Troll lol lol

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Last time I checked straight white men weren't a minority group

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By *indenMan over a year ago

Naas which is South West of Dublin

"Last time I checked straight white men weren't a minority group "

Well not in here anyway, too many of the feckers….

But I must admit, I didn’t think of any movies in the context mentioned above, some may consider that to have been inclusive.

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man over a year ago

City Centre, Dublin

"Last time I checked straight white men weren't a minority group "

Ooooooooooooh

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Another hidden reason is shame.

This is why it is important to make puberty blockers available, they provide the extra time required to make a more informed decision.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

South Park did a very good piece on trans sport participation and the hysteria surrounding it with a macho man randy savage cameo

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By * la carteCouple over a year ago

Dublin

This is why it is important to make puberty blockers available, they provide the extra time required to make a more informed decision."

Again, most definitely not an option I would be in favour of! Years of medication to put off a decision until of age for a journey they quite possibly don't want to take after all!!!

I know what my own hormones do to me on a monthly basis without taking my period into consideration, never mind the adverse effects and side effects on a child by prescribing puberty blockers, a child who may very well change their minds umpteen times as to how they identify - a child who cannot give informed consent to such a life changing decision.

Personally, as a parent of a teen identifying transgender, I will always opt for taking the "natural" route of life. With respect and in support of how they identify, in a loving and caring home. Once they're 18, they can make whatever decision they wish. I will support them either way but I will not support medical intervention prior to that.

There's a reason for age of consent!

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This is why it is important to make puberty blockers available, they provide the extra time required to make a more informed decision.

Again, most definitely not an option I would be in favour of! Years of medication to put off a decision until of age for a journey they quite possibly don't want to take after all!!!

There's a reason for age of consent!"

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

Great opinions and discussions here. I knew this would be a little controversial but to be fair most kept it mature. Just to add my two cents. I still can't fathom that some grown adults think that you are a member of the opposite sex when everyone and their mother knows you are not. Just because you feel you are or would like to be, unfortunately nature didn't take your feelings into account when assigning your dna. The fact that some people actually think puberty blockers for young kids who can hardly decide what to have for breakfast are the answer shows how far off the rails humanity has gone. Your feelings do not entitle you to either invade womens safe spaces or take the places of females that have gone through all of hard work to get where they are in women's sports and who have also been through all of the trials, tribulations and ups and downs of being female whist you on the other hand have avoided by being exactly what you are, male.

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By *unnygolCouple over a year ago

templeogue

It's not trans rights....its the rights of those born female that need to be protected, you cannot be objective as you are trans. It's utterly ridiculous to think you should be allowed to physically engage in women's contact sports. And we have no issue at all with equality etc.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Look at it this way, how many men have transitioned into women's sports and dominated and how many women have transitioned into mens sports and dominated, its an advantage that mid table male athletes have exploited and it does ruin it for women's sports,

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By *antra MassageMan over a year ago

South Side.

And the Tavistock clinic in the UK has been closed by the NHS, as its counselling and medication practises for transgender inclined children have been deemed unsafe.

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By *xplicitMan over a year ago

donegal

Sorry but I am at a total loss as to why any individual that has transitioned should be welcome in any gender specific sport. To me the only answer is trans sports in their own right. Then everyone has full protection of their own individual rights .

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Great opinions and discussions here. I knew this would be a little controversial but to be fair most kept it mature. Just to add my two cents. I still can't fathom that some grown adults think that you are a member of the opposite sex when everyone and their mother knows you are not. Just because you feel you are or would like to be, unfortunately nature didn't take your feelings into account when assigning your dna. The fact that some people actually think puberty blockers for young kids who can hardly decide what to have for breakfast are the answer shows how far off the rails humanity has gone. Your feelings do not entitle you to either invade womens safe spaces or take the places of females that have gone through all of hard work to get where they are in women's sports and who have also been through all of the trials, tribulations and ups and downs of being female whist you on the other hand have avoided by being exactly what you are, male. "

Opinions and discussions are fine but not when it comes to whether trans people have a right to exist..

By denying their right to exist it basically dehumanises a person and this type of attitude can lead to violence. Attacks and murders against transpeople are already far too high.

DNA is not just XX and XY. It's far more complicated than that.

https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a

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By *oghunter33Woman over a year ago

on the hill NordWest of

So you think being transgender is just a mood or feeling, some sort irrationality that leads to a false entitlement and the only thing that defines your gender is what's between your legs?

Crikey man, you might have some issues there... Maybe you should look up the definition of identifying and feeling, then try to find the compassion and imagination to evoke what it must feel like if you were given the wrong body.

Btw my best guess is that sort of white knighting for women born with a vagina won't get you more opportunities on here.

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By *ilthyNightsCouple over a year ago

East / North, Cork

Can you explain why you think trans women trample on women's rights?

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By *ilthyNightsCouple over a year ago

East / North, Cork

Does anyone here who was born with a vagina think this too?

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By *oghunter33Woman over a year ago

on the hill NordWest of

So you think being transgender is just a mood or feeling, some sort irrationality that leads to a false entitlement and the only thing that defines your gender is what's between your legs?

Btw my best guess is that sort of white knighting for women born with a vagina won't get you more opportunities on here.

White knighting. Don't be a bitch.

I happen to believe in standing up for what's right whether that it be for make or female. Take a look back at 99 percent of the comments here and they do the same. I also believe compassion is born out of the truth. Thinking u have been given the wrong body to me is a mental issue. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't mean you get to trample on women's rights because of what you feel. I can't get up in the morning and decide that I feel I am black or Chinese or any other race because I am not. Simple as. Perhaps you should try having some compassion for your follow females instead of being part of the woke mob. "

Maybe you should read my first post on this thread.

Being transgender isn't a mental issue/disorder.

To defend someone's rights by putting others down isn't a virtue.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"100percent. Balls/genitalia don't determine the gender as person is "
so tell me how do you determine..try selling sheep with balls at a mart or anywhere else as breeding stock ffs's get real.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Do we think it's the right decision? No. Do we see where they are coming from with said decision? Unfortunately yes. Does it exclude trans people from a sport that they love? Yes.

Also quite shocked at some of the comments on this thread, ranging from the down right transphobic to the kind of shit you would hear JK Rowling about trans women. I always thought swingers are more liberal people but I must have thought wrong. Great stuff for the private notes however.

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By *3nsesMan over a year ago

Dublin

I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

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By *acob12369Man over a year ago

URPANTS

Ban women's rugby , awful stuff

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Look at it this way, how many men have transitioned into women's sports and dominated and how many women have transitioned into mens sports and dominated, its an advantage that mid table male athletes have exploited and it does ruin it for women's sports, "

Name one athlete you think has transitioned for the sole purpose of a sporting advantage?

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By *onandsusieCouple over a year ago

town

"I always said rugby is a tough sport and it takes balls to play it

Except transwomen don’t have balls.

What about the funny shaped one used in the game?"
only funny if ya think a soccer ball is normal.

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition". "

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Really? Like, really? Do you have a trans child? Have you ever supported a trans child? Sat with them as they break their heart trying to understand why they feel so impossibly lost? Been there through years of gruelling counselling? Know anything about gender identity counselling for children? About working with a child to provide safe, measured and progressive social transitioning?

My guess is no, because if you had one iota of knowledge you wouldn't come off with crap like this.

Are you OK with children who transition FTM? Any white knighting on behalf of the blokes?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

For the love of God what percentage of the population are "trans"?? Maybe 0.0001% and here we are pandering to this bullshit! You are either a man or a woman and if you want to play sports you stick to what sports you belong to either male or female. There are 2 genders, male and female, and you are born one or the other, end of

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By *eaAndBenCouple over a year ago

Dublin

[Removed by poster at 15/08/22 00:05:33]

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"For the love of God what percentage of the population are "trans"?? Maybe 0.0001% and here we are pandering to this bullshit! You are either a man or a woman and if you want to play sports you stick to what sports you belong to either male or female. There are 2 genders, male and female, and you are born one or the other, end of"

You appear to have had a compassion and empathy bypass

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Such a profound yet scientific response. I hope you get nominated for an award. You really deserve it.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Just because you type those words out on a screen, it doesn't make them true.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

You appear to have had a compassion and empathy bypass"

And a knowledge bypass.

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By *heHornyWandererMan over a year ago

glasgow

Definitely the right decision, professional sport should be separated by the sexes, not gender.

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By *3nsesMan over a year ago

Dublin

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans"

It's bottom of the barrel because it's the most extreme and unlilely option and people who are transphobic etc nearly always pick the most extreme and unlikely situation to justify alienate and marginalising minority groups.

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

First off I am not transsphobic. Disagreeing with not wanting transwomen on women's teams or safe spaces does not make one transsphobic yet that is the kind of speech that trans activists love to harp on about. Its an opinion, that's all. And its an opinion that tries to give some little bit of protection to women. Why is that so hard to fathom. Secondly. Yeah your right, tagh furlong probably will never transition to a woman, but, maybe he will, who knows. The point is that there is nothing to stop a man who is going to cause harm to a woman on a sports field transitioning and playing in women's sports. Obviously until now with the introduction of the ban. As for safe spaces, yeah some women might not care but some might. Any women I've had the conversation with said if someone was in a changing room that was clearly a man because he had a penis then they would feel totally uncomfortable and would leave immediately,especially if there was younger girls in that locker room. Msybe I'm being completely naive here but it makes sense to me.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?"

My opinion is either they change in the locker room of whatever there sex or a third option for trans. Why would women need protection from other women. Making a statement lie transwomen are women doesn't cut it in this situation. What is your recommendation to real womaen who would be uncomfortable in a locker room with a naked transwoman that has male genitals. Or maybe they should go elsewhere? And would u tell a parent who wants to change with their young daughter while a transwoman is getting changed. U can keep saying a transwoman is a woman but that does nothing for real women's issues.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

Perhaps education is key. If I was the child's parent I would explain. Are cis men to be similarly protected from transmen?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If women don't need protection from other women in changing areas why would they need protection from a trans woman?

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

To be fair, the real issue is the unfair advantage that a Trans woman may have when competing with women in a body that has had the advantage of testosterone for years or decades, leading to size and speed differences. Its an emotive subject but it's not all about transphobia.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"To be fair, the real issue is the unfair advantage that a Trans woman may have when competing with women in a body that has had the advantage of testosterone for years or decades, leading to size and speed differences. Its an emotive subject but it's not all about transphobia. "

Oh I understand that...I was just exploring some of the OPs other opinions on the subject

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

Oh I understand that...I was just exploring some of the OPs other opinions on the subject "

I wasn't even addressing it to you particularly, it was just a general comment!

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

Hey Shannon! I respect your opinion but mixing the genders in an extremely physically contact sport will lead to serious carnage and injury. I dont see it as a sad day for the trans community at all. I see it as a blessing for them.

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"If women don't need protection from other women in changing areas why would they need protection from a trans woman?"

Because they are men. No matter what way you dress the matter up.i can't be a woman anymore than I can be a black person.

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

Perhaps education is key. If I was the child's parent I would explain. Are cis men to be similarly protected from transmen?"

Personally I wouldn't visit this kind of confusion on a child. In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants. As for men, yes I also thi k they need to be protected, if they feel they need to be. We can't just start telling men and women that from now on regardless of how you feel your safe spaces will now be occupied by members of the opposite sex.

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!!

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man over a year ago

City Centre, Dublin

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!! "

You do know Twitter is not a real place

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!! "

I'm gonna suggest that you've never taken part in reasonable debate with a comment like that.

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!!

I'm gonna suggest that you've never taken part in reasonable debate with a comment like that.

"
whats wrong with my comment? Leftist loons comment offend your cotton socks?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

[Removed by poster at 17/08/22 18:19:12]

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!!

I'm gonna suggest that you've never taken part in reasonable debate with a comment like that.

whats wrong with my comment? Leftist loons comment offend your cotton socks? "

You're proving my point pretty well.

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man over a year ago

City Centre, Dublin

Has anyone used the term “woke” or “snowflake” yet?

I can’t be arsed going up through the comments

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!!

I'm gonna suggest that you've never taken part in reasonable debate with a comment like that.

whats wrong with my comment? Leftist loons comment offend your cotton socks?

You're proving my point pretty well.

Im glad im proving what ever point you mean.

so tell us Michael whats your opinion on the topic?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Has anyone used the term “woke” or “snowflake” yet?

I can’t be arsed going up through the comments"

Just open the Daily Mail and you'll get a good idea of a lot of them

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!!

I'm gonna suggest that you've never taken part in reasonable debate with a comment like that.

whats wrong with my comment? Leftist loons comment offend your cotton socks?

You're proving my point pretty well.

Im glad im proving what ever point you mean.

so tell us Michael whats your opinion on the topic?"

I have no interest in conversing with you at all but it's up there already if you care to look.

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so "

See here is an example of the kind of crap we hear today. Phobic or a phobia, means he or she is scared of something. Transphobic is thrown around willy nilly. His opinion just doesnt aline with yours so lets call him transphobic!! Why dont we just cancel him and brand him as evil? Ffs

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By *ay_Gatsby_D4Man over a year ago

City Centre, Dublin

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so

Why are ye getting worked up with one person opinion that doesn’t align with yours?

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!!

I'm gonna suggest that you've never taken part in reasonable debate with a comment like that.

whats wrong with my comment? Leftist loons comment offend your cotton socks?

You're proving my point pretty well.

Im glad im proving what ever point you mean.

so tell us Michael whats your opinion on the topic?

I have no interest in conversing with you at all but it's up there already if you care to look. "

You're looking and sounding stupid micheal lad. Ive zero problem with transgender people. Live and let fucking live. But a guy who comes out as trans, and thinks they can just jump into the womens league needs their head examined. Its down right dangerous for the biological women. And you know it

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so

Why are ye getting worked up with one person opinion that doesn’t align with yours?"

Im not. Go read what i wrote. Then read it again. I was defending the guy who made the comment.

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By *ichael McCarthyMan over a year ago

Lucan

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!!

I'm gonna suggest that you've never taken part in reasonable debate with a comment like that.

whats wrong with my comment? Leftist loons comment offend your cotton socks?

You're proving my point pretty well.

Im glad im proving what ever point you mean.

so tell us Michael whats your opinion on the topic?

I have no interest in conversing with you at all but it's up there already if you care to look.

Meh.

You're adding nothing to the debate but insults.

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

"There was a huge argument on this topic on the twitter machine .. its amazing the amount of leftist loons who choose to ignore basic biology!!

I'm gonna suggest that you've never taken part in reasonable debate with a comment like that.

whats wrong with my comment? Leftist loons comment offend your cotton socks?

You're proving my point pretty well.

Im glad im proving what ever point you mean.

so tell us Michael whats your opinion on the topic?

I have no interest in conversing with you at all but it's up there already if you care to look.

Meh.

You're adding nothing to the debate but insults. "
am i tho???? Leftist loon insults you?? Or is it the fact that you cant debate this topic that insults you? Im baffled here honestly. Im baffled that in 2022 we need to debate gender identity. If you were born with a penis and testicles you are a male. If you've ovaries and a cervix/vagina you are a female. There is a huge bloody difference in both genders physically. Hence why its god dam dangerous to let a trans man loose to play a physical contact sport such as rugby in a womans league. The irfu made this decision wisely.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so "

You forgot comparing trans to having mental problems (I can't find said comment now but I do distinctly remember him saying it)

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so

I think you'll find that fear is at the root of most things we find abhorant.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

Perhaps education is key. If I was the child's parent I would explain. Are cis men to be similarly protected from transmen?

God help you're ever faced with helping your own child with that kind of intransigence. At least I can sleep at night knowing my own trans child has been fully supported with an open heart and mind and allowed the freedom to navigate their path to happiness. I'd much rather that than the alternative - a child who was ready to take their own life

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so

I think you'll find that fear is at the root of most things we find abhorant. "

I agree but this isnt fear of transgender people. Its the fear of what can happen in terms of full contact sport. It would be carnage for the women if a transgender woman took part. Physically, that transgender woman would be extremely strong in comparison and it would cause nothing but grief. Unfortunately if they want to take part then stick to the gender they were born in and identify as trans. Its safer that way.

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

Perhaps education is key. If I was the child's parent I would explain. Are cis men to be similarly protected from transmen?

I do hear whee you are coming from in that sense. I just wonder has social media and this whole trans movement started putting thoughts in kids heads that ordinaraly would never have arisen. I do have a colleague whes 17 year old daughter literally just told her that she wants to be a boy. Never ever showed any signs through her life. Something is feeding this. And maybe mental health intervention should be the first port of call instead of promoting the behaviour. Then again I could be completely wrong as I'm not in that position

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so "
your trans rhetoric isn't working. I'm not transsphobic. And my comment stands. It is not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants. If I lived in the US and wanted to get in to college so wanted to use the affirmative action program to get in, could I identify as black in order to do so.?

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

Perhaps education is key. If I was the child's parent I would explain. Are cis men to be similarly protected from transmen?

You have zero understanding of the counselling involved around gender identity. Perhaps you should try and educate yourself. If it was as simple as peer pressure or thoughts being put in their head, trust me, it would come out during the support process. I'm not sure what you mean by medical health intervention. Maybe we should lock the pesky buggers up or give them electric shock therapy...that'll put their notions out of them

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By *nthonydebarraMan over a year ago

Clare , limerick

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

Perhaps education is key. If I was the child's parent I would explain. Are cis men to be similarly protected from transmen?

Christ above. Electric shock therapy isnt what anyone wants to see. But some sort of therapy is definitely needed. If some biological or man thinks they are a woman, then something is wrong. It aint a bad thing. People question themselves everyday on topics. But to think you're really a different gender at heart is something that needs to guided medically

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By *indenMan over a year ago

Naas which is South West of Dublin

Oh sweet baby Jesus and the wee donkey……

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I try my best to avoid threads like this, for good reason. Absolute bottom of the barrel comments like "what if tadgh furlong decided to transition".

But why is that a bottom of the barrel comment. Are u saying that the likes of Tadg Furlong cannot be trans

Not transphobic he says and then says

". In my eyes its not healthy to tell a boy he can be a girl if he wants"

Which translates as it's healthy to tell a boy he can't be a girl..which translates as it's bad for a boy to be a girl

You're transphobic so why not just say so

I think you'll find that fear is at the root of most things we find abhorant.

I wasnt referring to the sport discussion. I was talking about the OPs other comments about trans people which I highlighted and show a clear fear of trans people hence why he is a transphobe despite what he may say.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

Perhaps education is key. If I was the child's parent I would explain. Are cis men to be similarly protected from transmen?

You obviously don't get irony.

Reply privately (thread closed by moderator)

By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"I haven't copied and pasted your post but where should transwomen change/go to the bathroom? Do cis women normally need protection from other women in changing areas or bathrooms?

Perhaps education is key. If I was the child's parent I would explain. Are cis men to be similarly protected from transmen?

Fuck me pink and call me Rosy. The sarcasm flew right over your head there didn't it? Also the point I was making about the counselling and support mechanisms. How someone is supported through transition. The length of time they spend in therapy. The anguish they face on a daily basis. Swear to god, some of the ignorance around the subject that's on display here is staggering. I'd pretty much guarantee that anyone who transitions did not just wake up one morning and decide they wanted to a different gender.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Well said

Seems I got irony and sarcasm mixed up. Oops!

Some of the comments here are straight out of the Daily Mail.

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By *ford dudeMan over a year ago

County

My own opinion is, trans people absolutely have a place in sport should they desire. More power to them. Its great for physical and mental health. This is a grouping that suffers more from depression related health issues than most. We should be doing as much as we can to help them not turn them away.

But, in a case of physical sport like rugby. Having played it myself. I come down on the side of mtf players not joining in with the women's team.

But I absolutely think that any trans people wishing to compete should have a third category for trans athletes/sportspeople available.

I don't think that barriers should be put up to trans persons enjoying sport and they should be included should they wish. But for rugby in particular, it should be in a third grouping for everyone's safety.

Also some of the comments here are really overboard. Live and let live folks!

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"My own opinion is, trans people absolutely have a place in sport should they desire. More power to them. Its great for physical and mental health. This is a grouping that suffers more from depression related health issues than most. We should be doing as much as we can to help them not turn them away.

But, in a case of physical sport like rugby. Having played it myself. I come down on the side of mtf players not joining in with the women's team.

But I absolutely think that any trans people wishing to compete should have a third category for trans athletes/sportspeople available.

Also some of the comments here are really overboard. Live and let live folks!

I completely agree. A third category probably is the best course of action. Is there enough trans people for a development of a third category? Probably not. But I honestly don't think there should be transwomen any sport that requires any physical exertion. They will always have some level of ad antage which inevitably takes away from the women of that sport.

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By *acob12369Man over a year ago

URPANTS

But, in a case of physical sport like rugby. Having played it myself. I come down on the side of mtf players not joining in with the women's team.

But I absolutely think that any trans people wishing to compete should have a third category for trans athletes/sportspeople available.

Also some of the comments here are really overboard. Live and let live folks!

Surely 4 categories minimum are required.

Be hard to get numbers for teams id say. There wud be a lot of amalgamations.

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By *ford dudeMan over a year ago

County

"Surely 4 categories minimum are required.

Be hard to get numbers for teams id say. There wud be a lot of amalgamations. "

I think it would be better to have less teams but still playing than an outright ban.

The numbers is an issue, but if there's demand there. Then you'd need some way to go forward and while not perfect a trans league/team would seem to me to be the best compromise all round.

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By *3nsesMan over a year ago

Dublin

They will never get the numbers. Given the small numbers I don't understand why it can the done on a case by case basis.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Two categories.

Female only & Open to all.

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"Two categories.

Female only & Open to all."

Good point... Could work

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"They will never get the numbers. Given the small numbers I don't understand why it can the done on a case by case basis. "

That doesn't address the issue of fairness though. We can't just start giving places on teams ahead of women.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"They will never get the numbers. Given the small numbers I don't understand why it can the done on a case by case basis.

That doesn't address the issue of fairness though. We can't just start giving places on teams ahead of women. "

A case by case basis would be what I would be leaning towards. After all, not all cis men are physically stronger than all cis women.

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By *3nsesMan over a year ago

Dublin

"They will never get the numbers. Given the small numbers I don't understand why it can the done on a case by case basis.

That doesn't address the issue of fairness though. We can't just start giving places on teams ahead of women. "

Well, yes we can actually. I know there are the usual type of tranphobes who wouldn't like that kind of thing happening though.

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By *3nsesMan over a year ago

Dublin

Also I don't dee why the rules aren't applied only at a professional level rather than including amateur as well.

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By *i12345Man over a year ago

etown

Right decision in my opinion! If they didn’t play it when they had balls, why should they play without them and against women who will have a disadvantage due to the strength of the “trans” “athlete”

Imagine sexton, furlong etc. wearing a wig and going playing against the women? Easy to see which way that’ll go, 60+ points for Johnny and the boys

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"They will never get the numbers. Given the small numbers I don't understand why it can the done on a case by case basis.

That doesn't address the issue of fairness though. We can't just start giving places on teams ahead of women.

Well, yes we can actually. I know there are the usual type of tranphobes who wouldn't like that kind of thing happening though. "

You don't have to be transphobe to realise that a trans person getting a place on a team ahead of a cis female is completely unfair. Have a look at what happened to those poor girls that lea Thomas robbed medals from. They were absolutely gutted. He's a man. End of. He denied a girl a place on the team and denied a girl a place on the podium. It's very easy for guys to say its unfair to exclude the trans person but it's not negatively affecting men.

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By *oadrunner2000 OP Man over a year ago

city centre

"They will never get the numbers. Given the small numbers I don't understand why it can the done on a case by case basis.

That doesn't address the issue of fairness though. We can't just start giving places on teams ahead of women.

A case by case basis would be what I would be leaning towards. After all, not all cis men are physically stronger than all cis women."

Unfortunately in the vast majority of physical sports men are absolutely stronger then women. Perhaps in non contact sports like snooker or darts. Outside of those I don't see how both can compete together without disadvantage to cis women.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Also I don't dee why the rules aren't applied only at a professional level rather than including amateur as well. "

Because in order to progress to elite level females need to start playing & enjoying sport from a very young age in fair and safe environment.

They're unlikely to have the same engagement and commitment to sport (and therefore improve their skills which enable progression to an elite, professional level) if they are unfairly disadvantaged by playing alongside biological males.

Female professional sports players don't just wake up one morning and they're suddenly Olympic level. They've obviously started as amateurs.

Putting the question of elite sport aside, girls are less likely to partake in any sport, regardless of their ability, if they're playing alongside biological boys. So not only are the most talented disadvantaged but the normal girl who would just benefit from some exercise is also disadvantaged.

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By *ildGroverMan over a year ago

rathfarnham

"You don't have to be transphobe to realise that He's a man. End of. He denied a girl a place on the team and denied a girl a place on the podium. It's very easy for guys to say its unfair to exclude the trans person but it's not negatively affecting men. "

Pretty transphobic to say “he’s a man. End of”

Do you reckon he and anyone else transitions for the craic? Because it’s so easy and maybe there’ll be a medal or two in it?

For the record I don’t believe that any woman who has transitioned after puberty (which in fairness is going to be everyone) should be allowed to compete physically against cod females based on the science to date but to be so dismissive of someone who has or is going through the process is just wrong.

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By *3nsesMan over a year ago

Dublin

"Also I don't dee why the rules aren't applied only at a professional level rather than including amateur as well.

Because in order to progress to elite level females need to start playing & enjoying sport from a very young age in fair and safe environment.

Female professional sports players don't just wake up one morning and they're suddenly Olympic level. They've obviously started as amateurs.

There's very few sports that don't have boys and girls competing against each other from a young age though.

You won't find any coach who would say that having girls competing with boys is a bad thing for their development.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Also I don't dee why the rules aren't applied only at a professional level rather than including amateur as well.

Because in order to progress to elite level females need to start playing & enjoying sport from a very young age in fair and safe environment.

Female professional sports players don't just wake up one morning and they're suddenly Olympic level. They've obviously started as amateurs.

There's very few sports that don't have boys and girls competing against each other from a young age though.

You won't find any coach who would say that having girls competing with boys is a bad thing for their development. "

Very young age...fair enough, you can get away with it. Once their bodies start developing, they need to be separated.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Pretty transphobic to say “he’s a man. End of”

Do you reckon he and anyone else transitions for the craic? Because it’s so easy and maybe there’ll be a medal or two in it?

Why is it wrong? He's expressing an opinion?

Why is it transphobic to say Lia Thomas is a biological man? If you accept that this individual is a trans woman, then by your logic you need to accept the transition from man to a trans woman. Lia has changed gender and how their presentation to the world but it is impossible to change sex. Therefore, Lia Thomas identifies as a trans woman but remains, until the end of time, a biological man.

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By *ildGroverMan over a year ago

rathfarnham

Pretty transphobic to say “he’s a man. End of”

Do you reckon he and anyone else transitions for the craic? Because it’s so easy and maybe there’ll be a medal or two in it?

Why is it wrong? He's expressing an opinion?

Never said it was transphobic to refer to LT as a biological man did I??

I have pretty clearly set out what was actually in the post is wrong.

It is wrong to refer to someone who has transitioned and identifies as say, a woman, as “he” it is demeaning and belittling.

And that of course is my….. opinion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Pretty transphobic to say “he’s a man. End of”

Do you reckon he and anyone else transitions for the craic? Because it’s so easy and maybe there’ll be a medal or two in it?

Why is it wrong? He's expressing an opinion?

Never said it was transphobic to refer to LT as a biological man did I??

I have pretty clearly set out what was actually in the post is wrong.

It is wrong to refer to someone who has transitioned and identifies as say, a woman, as “he” it is demeaning and belittling.

And that of course is my….. opinion "

Indeed, misgendering is demeaning, belittling and can -in many cases - be harmful

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Pretty transphobic to say “he’s a man. End of”

Do you reckon he and anyone else transitions for the craic? Because it’s so easy and maybe there’ll be a medal or two in it?

Why is it wrong? He's expressing an opinion?

Never said it was transphobic to refer to LT as a biological man did I??

I have pretty clearly set out what was actually in the post is wrong.

It is wrong to refer to someone who has transitioned and identifies as say, a woman, as “he” it is demeaning and belittling.

And that of course is my….. opinion "

What if it is someone's belief that since it is impossible to change sex, they should not feel compelled to deny what their eyes tell them and say "she" when they clearly see a "he"?

For the record, I'll almost always call someone what they like. On a one to one basis, I wouldn't go out of my way to make someone feel uncomfortable or be unnecessarily cruel.

However, in my head, I'd still see a man and think they were a man.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Pretty transphobic to say “he’s a man. End of”

Do you reckon he and anyone else transitions for the craic? Because it’s so easy and maybe there’ll be a medal or two in it?

Why is it wrong? He's expressing an opinion?

Never said it was transphobic to refer to LT as a biological man did I??

I have pretty clearly set out what was actually in the post is wrong.

It is wrong to refer to someone who has transitioned and identifies as say, a woman, as “he” it is demeaning and belittling.

And that of course is my….. opinion

What if it is someone's belief that since it is impossible to change sex, they should not feel compelled to deny what their eyes tell them and say "she" when they clearly see a "he"?

For the record, I'll almost always call someone what they like. On a one to one basis, I wouldn't go out of my way to make someone feel uncomfortable or be unnecessarily cruel.

However, in my head, I'd still see a man and think they were a man.

Almost 17 years ago I gave birth to a baby girl. That child that i love more than life itself has been through hell and back. That child is now he/him, lives as a boy, has chosen a new name and is treated in his everyday life as the gender he identified as 5 years ago.

Now by my reckoning, if I - his mother, who grew him in my womb, who has wiped bums and tears and snot, who has loved him unconditionally for the beautiful person he is - can manage it, then it's not too fucking hard for some stranger to suck it up and not misgender him. To do otherwise is just plain bloody ignorance

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By *og-ManMan over a year ago

somewhere

Wasn't going to say anything in this thread until I read what was written above this post

Its from the heart ,its the truth ...simple as

My sons best friend asked my family could we except her if she transitioned to a him...

His own family didnt so our home was a safe place for him

Yes we called him the wrong name every now and then and memorably once my six year old once asked him while we were having dinner

"Did you used to be a girl in this house to be told yes and he answered.." Thank fuck I was confused " .....That was it...end of confusion

Its not difficult to call someone what they ask ....its just good manners

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

This post is meandering away from the original discussion. Is it safe for a transgeder woman too play contact rugby with real women. Absolutely not... is it safe for a 14 year old boy to play with grown men? This has nothing to do with limiting rights. Its a safety issue. Women's rights matter too. To further Women's sport we need to protect it. Letting genetic males compete in Women's events to appease a tiny minority is not sustainable. If you're transgender and love sport that much... set up your own division.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"This post is meandering away from the original discussion. Is it safe for a transgeder woman too play contact rugby with real women. Absolutely not... is it safe for a 14 year old boy to play with grown men? This has nothing to do with limiting rights. Its a safety issue. Women's rights matter too. To further Women's sport we need to protect it. Letting genetic males compete in Women's events to appease a tiny minority is not sustainable. If you're transgender and love sport that much... set up your own division. "

Meandering of threads is natural. In discussion and debate it's healthy to challenge ideas and opinions - and perhaps shed light or provide insight. For example the use of terminology such as real women or words like appeasement

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

If you oppose my post, you oppose womens rights. Simple.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

Oh this thread went left.

Until a trans woman can be tested to see if shes physically on the same level requirements to see if she isn't a safety threat against a female player the ban is right. Hopefully in time this will change to include trans women and these measures will be put in place to test them so everyone can be included.

As for all the oh I don't want a man in a woman's changing room, they choose this, well when I look at her I see a guy.

There's plenty of cis men and women that could be mistaking for women and visversa.

Educate yourself before you come out with stupidty.

They're called pronouns for a reason. So if they prefer he/she, they/them even indigo whatever it is just use them.

At the end of the day just show a bit of respect to another human being its not hard.

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Oh this thread went left.

As for all the oh I don't want a man in a woman's changing room, they choose this, well when I look at her I see a guy.

There's plenty of cis men and women that could be mistaking for women and visversa.

Educate yourself before you come out with stupidty.

They're called pronouns for a reason. So if they prefer he/she, they/them even indigo whatever it is just use them.

At the end of the day just show a bit of respect to another human being its not hard."

Brillant post and insight

I think it was the correct decision from the IRFU.

Until the science can say otherwise and we know more than we know now - it was the right stance to take.

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By *ananaman41Man over a year ago

Dublin

Why cant trans women compete in mens sports? If youre born male then compete as a male. Why is this not an option?

No exclusion then

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why cant trans women compete in mens sports? If youre born male then compete as a male. Why is this not an option?

No exclusion then"

They can. At least that was the IRFU’S stance to go along with other rugby governing bodies. Basically men who have transitioned to women can play male rugby and paraphrasing “ they know the risks involved “ or worded something like that. Trans men born as women can’t play male rugby which i totally agree with. They’ve not gone through puberty etc. At a clear disadvantage and could get seriously hurt. If the science catches up and says otherwise , fair enough but until then……

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By *ananaman41Man over a year ago

Dublin

"Why cant trans women compete in mens sports? If youre born male then compete as a male. Why is this not an option?

No exclusion then

I fail to see what the issue is then. No exclusion

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By (user no longer on site) over a year ago

"Why cant trans women compete in mens sports? If youre born male then compete as a male. Why is this not an option?

No exclusion then

I fail to see what the issue is then. No exclusion"

Personally, no idea. I’m fairly unmoved by all this. I’m not generalising but when this convo has been brought up over the years “some” women ( born women and trans ) let ego come into it and think it’s a personal attack on their strength, ability. Nonsense. I’m guided by fact. Science. Not hurt feelings.

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