now, first, may i just state i am english and thusly do not understand the complexities of politics within ireland.
now i am not posting this to cause arguments and please i really dont want it to go that way.
was listening to the radio about the orange march the other day and the riots that, again, ensued.
i spoke to Em and asked her why the irish are hating each other so much, and was suprised to be told that they were British (the orange order, not the northern irish, i dont think)
now, can anyone tell me why they march?
who are the orange order
and, if they are british, why they dont march in the UK.
please, again, i dont want to hear they are scum or wankers or anything like that.
i want reasoned and sensible comments to explain to me who this order is and what they are about.
thanks in advance. |
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People of both religions march in public for their own celebrations here. It is not limited to just "Orange" people.
As I'm sure there are parades of various kinds by various groups of people throughout the UK and indeed the world ?
Who they are and what they are about is largely irrelevant. They are groups of people with a large following who want to parade. Freedom of expression and all that.
And again, both protestant and catholic groups do it. Just some seem to be more easily offended than others.
As for the rioting or violence that often occurs some time later. Does it follow the parade, or follow the protest ? People can easily get confused with that one.
I think it's more a case of some people just want an excuse to cause a riot. And the police seem to do so little about it, with arrests and prosecutions being very rare indeed. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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ok i'm not going to be smart here but i think you need to use google and find out more info on all your question and i think your post shows a genuine interest in the history of the orange order and where they came from the prades should go ahead and let ppl celabrate the day the riots are yobs fightin for the sake of it |
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"ok i'm not going to be smart here but i think you need to use google and find out more info on all your question and i think your post shows a genuine interest in the history of the orange order and where they came from the prades should go ahead and let ppl celabrate the day the riots are yobs fightin for the sake of it "
i appreciate that, and yes, i will be googling it when i get a minute.
just wanted real peoples views on it, without getting insulting, if that makes sense.
i know everyone and anyone has a right to march/protest and whatever.
its the intricacies of this one in particular i dont get.
why this route?
why, if they are british, they dont actually do it in the UK, and never have, or at least i have never heard of it happening in the UK?
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Orange order
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order
Hibernians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parades_in_Northern_Ireland#Nationalist_parades
tbh the above links are probably better sources of information than anything potentially posted by respondents here. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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People of Northern Ireland are both blessed and cursed with dual nationality, Both Irish and British as far as cultural is concerned - politically we're part of the UK. Hence they are marching in the UK.
I may be bias in my opinion so I'll try and not let it affect my answer.
But as the orange order feels the need to celebrate their british heritage they march on the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne (between he Catholic King James and the Protestant King William, who had deposed James in 1688 - to this day the monarch of cannot be catholic)
The reason there are riots/protests/etc (though some may disagree) is that the event itself is the celebration of both a pro british and anti catholic event, and in itself pro british and anti catholic feeling, as shown by the disgraceful display yesterday outside of St. Patricks or the fact that Irish tricolours are burned on bonfires.
I think it's only fair to state that many of the orange order aren't sectarian scum - as much as every nationalist isn't a stone throwing rebel without a clue... But as often happens with there kind of things, mob rule takes over, the older generation often still carrying hard feelings from the troubles, and kids who aren't old enough to know what the troubles were like and who just want to watch the world burn. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People of both religions march in public for their own celebrations here. It is not limited to just "Orange" people.
As I'm sure there are parades of various kinds by various groups of people throughout the UK and indeed the world ?
Who they are and what they are about is largely irrelevant. They are groups of people with a large following who want to parade. Freedom of expression and all that.
And again, both protestant and catholic groups do it. Just some seem to be more easily offended than others.
As for the rioting or violence that often occurs some time later. Does it follow the parade, or follow the protest ? People can easily get confused with that one.
I think it's more a case of some people just want an excuse to cause a riot. And the police seem to do so little about it, with arrests and prosecutions being very rare indeed."
 |
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"People of Northern Ireland are both blessed and cursed with dual nationality, Both Irish and British as far as cultural is concerned - politically we're part of the UK. Hence they are marching in the UK.
I may be bias in my opinion so I'll try and not let it affect my answer.
But as the orange order feels the need to celebrate their british heritage they march on the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne (between he Catholic King James and the Protestant King William, who had deposed James in 1688 - to this day the monarch of cannot be catholic)
The reason there are riots/protests/etc (though some may disagree) is that the event itself is the celebration of both a pro british and anti catholic event, and in itself pro british and anti catholic feeling, as shown by the disgraceful display yesterday outside of St. Patricks or the fact that Irish tricolours are burned on bonfires.
I think it's only fair to state that many of the orange order aren't sectarian scum - as much as every nationalist isn't a stone throwing rebel without a clue... But as often happens with there kind of things, mob rule takes over, the older generation often still carrying hard feelings from the troubles, and kids who aren't old enough to know what the troubles were like and who just want to watch the world burn."
thankyou for a reasoned answer.
do you know why they stick to the route they do, when they know it stirs up such bad feelings?
i remember a few years ago there was discussion about changing it, but they refused. |
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The Orange Order is a Protestant organisation, named after Prince William of Orange.
He became King of England, Scotland and Ireland in 1688 with the Glorious Revolution and defeated the Catholic King James in the 1690 Battle of the Boyne.
The order was founded in 1795, after Protestants and Catholics clashed at the Battle of the Diamond in County Armagh.
It held its first parade in 1796, and marches have formed a significant part of the Orange Order’s culture ever since.
Today’s Order has thousands of members - mainly in Northern Ireland, but also in the US, Canada, West Africa and New Zealand.
Every year the association holds parades to commemorate historical events - the most high-profile being a march on July 12 known by members as 'The Twelfth'.
Members celebrate the Glorious Revolution and Battle of the Boyne by marching through the streets of Belfast wearing colourful sashes, uniforms and waving banners.
Tensions arise when the procession goes through predominantly Catholic areas, and Nationalists often protest against the parade's route.
Every Orange Order member must belong to a lodge, which are similar to Masonic Lodges. There are more than 1,100 private lodges across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
hope this helps with the orange order, as for teh violence, totally different kettle of fish as both sides were responsible for it (small groups in each camp shall we say stirring it up and provoking the others which in turn, breeds what we seen on Thursday night) |
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"The Orange Order is a Protestant organisation, named after Prince William of Orange.
He became King of England, Scotland and Ireland in 1688 with the Glorious Revolution and defeated the Catholic King James in the 1690 Battle of the Boyne.
The order was founded in 1795, after Protestants and Catholics clashed at the Battle of the Diamond in County Armagh.
It held its first parade in 1796, and marches have formed a significant part of the Orange Order’s culture ever since.
Today’s Order has thousands of members - mainly in Northern Ireland, but also in the US, Canada, West Africa and New Zealand.
Every year the association holds parades to commemorate historical events - the most high-profile being a march on July 12 known by members as 'The Twelfth'.
Members celebrate the Glorious Revolution and Battle of the Boyne by marching through the streets of Belfast wearing colourful sashes, uniforms and waving banners.
Tensions arise when the procession goes through predominantly Catholic areas, and Nationalists often protest against the parade's route.
Every Orange Order member must belong to a lodge, which are similar to Masonic Lodges. There are more than 1,100 private lodges across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
hope this helps with the orange order, as for teh violence, totally different kettle of fish as both sides were responsible for it (small groups in each camp shall we say stirring it up and provoking the others which in turn, breeds what we seen on Thursday night)"
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By *abybellWoman
over a year ago
mid-ulster |
"The Orange Order is a Protestant organisation, named after Prince William of Orange.
He became King of England, Scotland and Ireland in 1688 with the Glorious Revolution and defeated the Catholic King James in the 1690 Battle of the Boyne.
The order was founded in 1795, after Protestants and Catholics clashed at the Battle of the Diamond in County Armagh.
It held its first parade in 1796, and marches have formed a significant part of the Orange Order’s culture ever since.
Today’s Order has thousands of members - mainly in Northern Ireland, but also in the US, Canada, West Africa and New Zealand.
Every year the association holds parades to commemorate historical events - the most high-profile being a march on July 12 known by members as 'The Twelfth'.
Members celebrate the Glorious Revolution and Battle of the Boyne by marching through the streets of Belfast wearing colourful sashes, uniforms and waving banners.
Tensions arise when the procession goes through predominantly Catholic areas, and Nationalists often protest against the parade's route.
Every Orange Order member must belong to a lodge, which are similar to Masonic Lodges. There are more than 1,100 private lodges across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
hope this helps with the orange order, as for teh violence, totally different kettle of fish as both sides were responsible for it (small groups in each camp shall we say stirring it up and provoking the others which in turn, breeds what we seen on Thursday night)
"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"The Orange Order is a Protestant organisation, named after Prince William of Orange.
He became King of England, Scotland and Ireland in 1688 with the Glorious Revolution and defeated the Catholic King James in the 1690 Battle of the Boyne.
The order was founded in 1795, after Protestants and Catholics clashed at the Battle of the Diamond in County Armagh.
It held its first parade in 1796, and marches have formed a significant part of the Orange Order’s culture ever since.
Today’s Order has thousands of members - mainly in Northern Ireland, but also in the US, Canada, West Africa and New Zealand.
Every year the association holds parades to commemorate historical events - the most high-profile being a march on July 12 known by members as 'The Twelfth'.
Members celebrate the Glorious Revolution and Battle of the Boyne by marching through the streets of Belfast wearing colourful sashes, uniforms and waving banners.
Tensions arise when the procession goes through predominantly Catholic areas, and Nationalists often protest against the parade's route.
Every Orange Order member must belong to a lodge, which are similar to Masonic Lodges. There are more than 1,100 private lodges across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.
hope this helps with the orange order, as for teh violence, totally different kettle of fish as both sides were responsible for it (small groups in each camp shall we say stirring it up and provoking the others which in turn, breeds what we seen on Thursday night)"
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Going to keep tight lipped about this as I can only see it descending into an argument but some very very strange opinions being expressed on this subject. Freedom of speech and all that jazz though I guess.  |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"People of Northern Ireland are both blessed and cursed with dual nationality, Both Irish and British as far as cultural is concerned - politically we're part of the UK. Hence they are marching in the UK.
I may be bias in my opinion so I'll try and not let it affect my answer.
But as the orange order feels the need to celebrate their british heritage they march on the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne (between he Catholic King James and the Protestant King William, who had deposed James in 1688 - to this day the monarch of cannot be catholic)
The reason there are riots/protests/etc (though some may disagree) is that the event itself is the celebration of both a pro british and anti catholic event, and in itself pro british and anti catholic feeling, as shown by the disgraceful display yesterday outside of St. Patricks or the fact that Irish tricolours are burned on bonfires.
I think it's only fair to state that many of the orange order aren't sectarian scum - as much as every nationalist isn't a stone throwing rebel without a clue... But as often happens with there kind of things, mob rule takes over, the older generation often still carrying hard feelings from the troubles, and kids who aren't old enough to know what the troubles were like and who just want to watch the world burn."
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thing is, there is bound to be a nationalist and republican point of view of this order, one will defend, and one will be against, and thats to be expected (same with tory and labour/city and united et al)
i, however, dont agree that it will ONLY lead to chaos on the boards as the replies so far are restrained and well thought out, and give an even account and opinion of the society, and i must thank the contributers for that.
the one thing i cant find, however, is wat i have been asking about, and thats why the route of this main march, on the 12th, is such. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Actually just re read everything there and I agree that the viewpoints are both restrained and respectful, I'm going to put my faux pas down to not having my coffee yet!! Sorry! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Going to keep tight lipped about this as I can only see it descending into an argument but some very very strange opinions being expressed on this subject. Freedom of speech and all that jazz though I guess. "
i,m with ya , have the fkin tongue bit of myself lol i guess this came from my post maybe for wishin everyone a happy and safe 12th of july but hey i suppose you could say it was like orther wishin orther a happy sain patricks day fk i dunno lol |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"No need to be so cheeky lovedup we are entitled to our opinion to which is that you knew more than you let on about this subject before you brought it up.But then some people like to stir."
thats exactly what it was posted for to get a bd reaction out of people just glad the op did,nt get their wish  |
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"No need to be so cheeky lovedup we are entitled to our opinion to which is that you knew more than you let on about this subject before you brought it up.But then some people like to stir.
thats exactly what it was posted for to get a bd reaction out of people just glad the op did,nt get their wish "
not at all.
before i posted this i had NO knowledge of who they were, what they were about, or where they came from.
in the UK we hear VERY little about it until riots kick off and everything goes pear shaped.
the march on the 12th is the only one we hear of because its the only one there is ever much trouble about.
you know what they say, nothing travels faster than bad news.
so to say i only posted this up to stir or cause trouble, is wide of the mark to say the least, otherwise i wouldnt have put the fact i dont want arguments or hostility.
some people just cant help BUT to argue on these boards.
the chatrooms are primarily for talking sex (or rather leering over people), as is messaging.
i always thought the forums were for everything, all subjects.
and as i said, if people dont want to talk about a specific subject then just dont click on that thread, it really is that simple. |
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The reason why you only really hear of trouble on this day is from the ardoyne/crumlin route, it passes shopfronts of a catholic area but also a protestant area just yards away, so long story short catholics say its going through there area and dont want it where prods want it to pass as its also a road they use its alot about so called shared space within the area, i could write for hours in depth about it but wont |
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By *ouple04Couple
over a year ago
county antrim |
Yeah right lovedup and you never have any riots in England after marches lol.Saying no more on the matter but still say its not the place people here hear enough of it on the news most nights so they dont need it on here but Google is a great thing nowadays for finding out all you need to know. |
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"Yeah right lovedup and you never have any riots in England after marches lol.Saying no more on the matter but still say its not the place people here hear enough of it on the news most nights so they dont need it on here but Google is a great thing nowadays for finding out all you need to know."
and have found a great deal on google, thank you very much.
not saying we dont have riots and trouble here, but seeings as our news reports on problems here, then we generally get good info on it.
our news, however, tends to gloss over stuff from across the water, unless its the other side of the bloody world.
really, i would have thought people would have jumped at the change to educate someone that shows a genuine interest in the history of ones country, rather than just piss and moan and offer conspiricy theories about wanting to cause trouble.
nothing really could be further from the truth.
since i have been seeing Em i have been asking about the troubles (being too young, and then getting the English perspective on things you tend to have a sided view of things)
but if you would like yet another english person to have a biggoted view of the irish then so be it.
talk about small minded mentality.
thank god not ALL irish are like yourself, and a few that have commented on this thread.
and i must, again, thank those that have offered considered and sensible reactions to this thread.
it is very much appreciated. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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Everyone justs needs to get on with each other! tho it is hard to when orange men march to show anti catholic views and pro British views thats not right in my view |
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There may not be many marches in England, but there would be in Scotland. No idea about Wales.
But I know people in various bands have travelled to England for different events there so it does happen.
As for the routes. Largely who knows really....why walk any route ? A lot are "traditional" and they have used them for years, ignoring changes due to road network changes, and meeting locations changing of course.
The route would also be to meet up with other bands and lodges along the way from different districts, so obviously they need to go into certain areas.
The routes only get contentious these days because population make-up in various areas has changed over the years. What may have been a predominantly loyalist area before, may now be mostly nationalist. ( not using protestant or catholic as many of those such normal people really dont care )
I guess it would be like holding something like a St Georges day parade through a Muslim heartland in London or Birmingham. Chances are they might not be too welcome. |
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"There may not be many marches in England, but there would be in Scotland. No idea about Wales.
But I know people in various bands have travelled to England for different events there so it does happen.
As for the routes. Largely who knows really....why walk any route ? A lot are "traditional" and they have used them for years, ignoring changes due to road network changes, and meeting locations changing of course.
The route would also be to meet up with other bands and lodges along the way from different districts, so obviously they need to go into certain areas.
The routes only get contentious these days because population make-up in various areas has changed over the years. What may have been a predominantly loyalist area before, may now be mostly nationalist. ( not using protestant or catholic as many of those such normal people really dont care )
I guess it would be like holding something like a St Georges day parade through a Muslim heartland in London or Birmingham. Chances are they might not be too welcome."
thank you very much.
appreciate your concise reasoning. |
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Couldn't give a flying fuck if your..A green or orange. Or if your black or white or Indian or Asian or Muslim or anything. Irish norn Irish British Scottish welsh French Australian....... You get me jist?? If you are sound.. Hot in my eyes.. Then we are fucking! That is all on this subject. Good night! |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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everyone's being a tad harsh on lup, He/she has said they're from England originally and aren't acquainted with certain aspects of seasonal traditions on this island..
although this is a sensitive subject for some considering the nature and tone in which the question was asked the defensive responses aren't necessary.
Will say though within a democracy regardless of your personal political leanings it's important to respect others freedom of cultural expression.. otherwise the stage is set for your and their civil liberties to be eroded and compromised. |
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"everyone's being a tad harsh on lup, He/she has said they're from England originally and aren't acquainted with certain aspects of seasonal traditions on this island..
although this is a sensitive subject for some considering the nature and tone in which the question was asked the defensive responses aren't necessary.
Will say though within a democracy regardless of your personal political leanings it's important to respect others freedom of cultural expression.. otherwise the stage is set for your and their civil liberties to be eroded and compromised."
absolutely. |
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By (user no longer on site)
over a year ago
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"Couldn't give a flying fuck if your..A green or orange. Or if your black or white or Indian or Asian or Muslim or anything. Irish norn Irish British Scottish welsh French Australian....... You get me jist?? If you are sound.. Hot in my eyes.. Then we are fucking! That is all on this subject. Good night!"
that's the way to go!!! lol  |
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