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Equalities act and swinging clubs
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"yes it has been debated before. Come back tomorrow and you will see this thread will have exploded." Or not! . As said...already discussed. Your answer lies above. No more comments required. Can the next mod who comes along please close the thread! | |||
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"Why dont you raise it with the equality authorities OP? See how far it gets you. What would you prefer: equal pricing, clubs over run with single males, females and couples staying away and the clubs closing down as men complain it's a cockfest. That would be a great result for equality! The reality is they are private members clubs, there will always be males willing to pay and it encourages females/couples to attend. If you don't like then don't attend clubs. Problem solved."  | |||
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"Why dont you raise it with the equality authorities OP? See how far it gets you. What would you prefer: equal pricing, clubs over run with single males, females and couples staying away and the clubs closing down as men complain it's a cockfest. That would be a great result for equality! The reality is they are private members clubs, there will always be males willing to pay and it encourages females/couples to attend. If you don't like then don't attend clubs. Problem solved." Your argument re clubs overrun with single men is a myth and misconception if prices were equal. Fact is clubs could be managed far better to deal with numbers coming through the door same as you get at say a nightclub at weekend if the place is full you have to wait till folk leave before you can get in. If for say a club sets limits on single men coming on a first come first served basis of say 50 and single fems 50 and couples the same limit based on fact regulations will only allow a certain amount on premises anyway what happens then if on a particular night say the club is nowwhere near capacity why on earth would a club not then allow single men in to fill it up. End of day its a business and yes I am totally against the inequality in pricing some clubs have fees lot cheaper and still make money. Despite all those moaning about single men at clubs remember without them most would not financially survive without them. Its about poor management and if some clubs can keep prices realistic and not extortionate then everyone gains. I only go to clubs with fbs because cost plus we enjoy more. In essence clubs hide behind the myth of the ratio to single men to women and couples to rip single men off whereas in fact its about poor managent or lack of willingness to be fair. | |||
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"I'm sure this must have been debated before but I could not access search on my mobile. So Apologies beforehand Most clubs saunas etc charge single males a lot more than single women usually more than double. I know one that charges women £5, another free for women and both charge single men £50! How can they get away with it? They know they have to get women in to attract the men but does that mean blatant rip off? Barry Hearn the former Leyton Orient chairman had a cheP season ticket deL for women £50 I think he did thAt to Attract more women fans. But a male orient fan complained to the equalities commission which ruled in his favour that the club was discriminating against men with thAt deAl so they were forced to scrap it. How do swingers clubs get away with what they charge single men? Hasn't anyone raised this with equality authorities?" would have thought if you had done this research you would not have need to ask the question, but found out for yourself, like others have said, check out previous threads, this debate and the answers have been posted on here so many times! | |||
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"I'm sure this must have been debated before but I could not access search on my mobile. So Apologies beforehand Most clubs saunas etc charge single males a lot more than single women usually more than double. I know one that charges women £5, another free for women and both charge single men £50! How can they get away with it? They know they have to get women in to attract the men but does that mean blatant rip off? Barry Hearn the former Leyton Orient chairman had a cheP season ticket deL for women £50 I think he did thAt to Attract more women fans. But a male orient fan complained to the equalities commission which ruled in his favour that the club was discriminating against men with thAt deAl so they were forced to scrap it. How do swingers clubs get away with what they charge single men? Hasn't anyone raised this with equality authorities?" Do it, go on be brave. Contact the relevant authority and make a formal complaint. You could become famous as the person who changed swinging clubs forever. | |||
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There are inequalities more unfair than single men paying more to get in a sex club, especially ones that don't have the element of choice!! | |||
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"yes it has been debated before. Come back tomorrow and you will see this thread will have exploded. Or not! . As said...already discussed. Your answer lies above. No more comments required. Can the next mod who comes along please close the thread!" There is always place for more comments on a subject. New posters bring new perspective etc. I'm sure by now you know that if you don't like the thread move on to the next one. As for demanding the thread is closed when there is nothing wrong with it. Laughable. | |||
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"Why dont you raise it with the equality authorities OP? See how far it gets you. What would you prefer: equal pricing, clubs over run with single males, females and couples staying away and the clubs closing down as men complain it's a cockfest. That would be a great result for equality! The reality is they are private members clubs, there will always be males willing to pay and it encourages females/couples to attend. If you don't like then don't attend clubs. Problem solved. Your argument re clubs overrun with single men is a myth and misconception if prices were equal. Fact is clubs could be managed far better to deal with numbers coming through the door same as you get at say a nightclub at weekend if the place is full you have to wait till folk leave before you can get in. If for say a club sets limits on single men coming on a first come first served basis of say 50 and single fems 50 and couples the same limit based on fact regulations will only allow a certain amount on premises anyway what happens then if on a particular night say the club is nowwhere near capacity why on earth would a club not then allow single men in to fill it up. End of day its a business and yes I am totally against the inequality in pricing some clubs have fees lot cheaper and still make money. Despite all those moaning about single men at clubs remember without them most would not financially survive without them. Its about poor management and if some clubs can keep prices realistic and not extortionate then everyone gains. I only go to clubs with fbs because cost plus we enjoy more. In essence clubs hide behind the myth of the ratio to single men to women and couples to rip single men off whereas in fact its about poor managent or lack of willingness to be fair." Almost every Club that we have visited in this country and abroad has the same policies on entrance and/or memberships. Perhaps the single guys who find it unfair know better? Perhaps they could band together and utilise their collectively superior marketing and management skills to create an equality club. Good luck with that. And be careful what you wish for. | |||
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"yes it has been debated before. Come back tomorrow and you will see this thread will have exploded. Or not! . As said...already discussed. Your answer lies above. No more comments required. Can the next mod who comes along please close the thread!" No  | |||
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"yes it has been debated before. Come back tomorrow and you will see this thread will have exploded. Or not! . As said...already discussed. Your answer lies above. No more comments required. Can the next mod who comes along please close the thread! No "In that case I think every possible subject has already had at least one forum thread about it so we might as well close the while thing. | |||
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"yes it has been debated before. Come back tomorrow and you will see this thread will have exploded. Or not! . As said...already discussed. Your answer lies above. No more comments required. Can the next mod who comes along please close the thread! No
In that case I think every possible subject has already had at least one forum thread about it so we might as well close the while thing."Exactly! It won't happen New opinions,New posters,it's all good and keeps it fresh
Plus if it's a repeated subject it's easy to ignore if you have nothing of value to say | |||
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"On that basis if it's a private members club,can the race /gender/sexual orientation discrimination acts be ignored?? " Yes to a degree. It's not discounted by race but it's perfectly legal to discount for " under represented groups"  | |||
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"if on a particular night say the club is nowwhere near capacity why on earth would a club not then allow single men in to fill it up. In essence clubs hide behind the myth of the ratio to single men to women and couples to rip single men off whereas in fact its about poor managent or lack of willingness to be fair." Two points we can strongly disagree with, filling a club with single guys is not a very clever way to go, and having had 52 single male applications this weekend, 17 couple ones, and 1 single lady one, we feel the ratio argument is quite a strong one! | |||
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"Oh god not again!!! Moderators, please cull these posts!!! If you do a search in the forums search box you will get no end of answers there. We can do it, it's legal. Please read the other threads and lets not go into this AGAIN! "You don't have to get into anything again. Just ignore it if you think it has been done before. | |||
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"yes it has been debated before. Come back tomorrow and you will see this thread will have exploded. Or not! . As said...already discussed. Your answer lies above. No more comments required. Can the next mod who comes along please close the thread! No " | |||
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"Oh god not again!!! Moderators, please cull these posts!!! If you do a search in the forums search box you will get no end of answers there. We can do it, it's legal. Please read the other threads and lets not go into this AGAIN! "If you don't like the subject just ignore it | |||
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"I'm sure this must have been debated before but I could not access search on my mobile. So Apologies beforehand Most clubs saunas etc charge single males a lot more than single women usually more than double. I know one that charges women £5, another free for women and both charge single men £50! How can they get away with it? They know they have to get women in to attract the men but does that mean blatant rip off? Barry Hearn the former Leyton Orient chairman had a cheP season ticket deL for women £50 I think he did thAt to Attract more women fans. But a male orient fan complained to the equalities commission which ruled in his favour that the club was discriminating against men with thAt deAl so they were forced to scrap it. How do swingers clubs get away with what they charge single men? Hasn't anyone raised this with equality authorities?" Simple answer because they can. Unless the men team up and take on the clubs it's never going to change. I personally find "private members" clubs to easy an opt out. Plenty clubs don't rip people off, equally plenty do. Maybe all club owners could get together and have a meeting, in which customers pay once for membership (say 150) which gets them into all of the clubs that sign up for the scheme, as personally I think its membership and entry and travel and hotels pretty much makes it not worth going to clubs. With a passport scheme you could get into a club you wouldn't normally go to because it's at other end of the country, but, find yourself on holiday and think I'll pop there, to have to pay membership when never likely to go again. You clubs should think about it, work with your customers | |||
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"So if you're a single female the major deciding factor whether you attend a club is whether you can get in for a fiver or less? Does this pricing scheme brand all single females as cheapskates? Surely equal entrance fees and a tight entrance policy on numbers of single guys would be a better way to go. Any female striving for equality must feel slightly ashamed by this." If a club was more than a fiver I wouldn't bother, I'd sort meets out at home instead | |||
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" Oh and by the way if you think single guy admission to a club is expensive get a wife !! "Hahahaha! | |||
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"It is. And it should be. Because it's also human nature. And every club would just have single men and then everyone would be disappointed..." Except me, because I'm looking for single men. | |||
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"Why dont you raise it with the equality authorities OP? See how far it gets you. What would you prefer: equal pricing, clubs over run with single males, females and couples staying away and the clubs closing down as men complain it's a cockfest. That would be a great result for equality! The reality is they are private members clubs, there will always be males willing to pay and it encourages females/couples to attend. If you don't like then don't attend clubs. Problem solved. Your argument re clubs overrun with single men is a myth and misconception if prices were equal. Fact is clubs could be managed far better to deal with numbers coming through the door same as you get at say a nightclub at weekend if the place is full you have to wait till folk leave before you can get in. If for say a club sets limits on single men coming on a first come first served basis of say 50 and single fems 50 and couples the same limit based on fact regulations will only allow a certain amount on premises anyway what happens then if on a particular night say the club is nowwhere near capacity why on earth would a club not then allow single men in to fill it up. End of day its a business and yes I am totally against the inequality in pricing some clubs have fees lot cheaper and still make money. Despite all those moaning about single men at clubs remember without them most would not financially survive without them. Its about poor management and if some clubs can keep prices realistic and not extortionate then everyone gains. I only go to clubs with fbs because cost plus we enjoy more. In essence clubs hide behind the myth of the ratio to single men to women and couples to rip single men off whereas in fact its about poor managent or lack of willingness to be fair. Almost every Club that we have visited in this country and abroad has the same policies on entrance and/or memberships. Perhaps the single guys who find it unfair know better? Perhaps they could band together and utilise their collectively superior marketing and management skills to create an equality club. Good luck with that. And be careful what you wish for." | |||
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"Maybe clubs are trying to offset the gender pay gap that still exists.......
There are inequalities more unfair than single men paying more to get in a sex club, especially ones that don't have the element of choice!!"That whole gender pay gay thing is such a disingenuous argument. Statistics gathered by academic 'feminists', used to intentionally mislead. For the same job, with the same level of experience there is no pay gap! Those studies which say otherwise either compare the earnings of a female graduate with a senior male in the same line of work. Or the overall earnings of both genders, without taking into account the type of work which is carried out. As the old saying goes; there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics. | |||
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"yes it has been debated before. Come back tomorrow and you will see this thread will have exploded. Or not! . As said...already discussed. Your answer lies above. No more comments required. Can the next mod who comes along please close the thread!" Haha I win. Nerr nerr | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.." Only thing I'm getting involved in on this topic as last time I got flamed. I completely agree. Dress it up how you like but clubs are effectively pimps. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. Only thing I'm getting involved in on this topic as last time I got flamed. I completely agree. Dress it up how you like but clubs are effectively pimps." Flamed by those who claim to be open minded haha. The same people who bang on about double standards, yet only when they affect the one gender. Basically people who regurgitate received information and have no capacity for analytical thinking. Of course there are different standards for different people, that is the way of the world. | |||
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"My gym has a separate ladies gym and a private staircase from their changing room to it. No men allowed in the ladies gym but the ladies are free to train in the main gym if they prefer. It works well and I dont feel hard done by. The fees are the same also. " Whilst fees are same its wrong that females can use ssme gym as men but have seperate too either equal or we are not no middle ground. Imagine uproar if there was male only gym. | |||
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" Oh and by the way if you think single guy admission to a club is expensive get a wife !! "ha ha ... Brilliant | |||
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"Imagine uproar if there was male only gym." That was basically most independent gyms until about 10 years ago. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.." It can be both 'sexist' and 'business'. And I agree with your second point. I'm not interested in going places that treat me as bait. | |||
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" It can be both 'sexist' and 'business'. And I agree with your second point. I'm not interested in going places that treat me as bait." Of course semantically you are correct. In which case both examples are sexist. On the surface one sex is receiving preferential treatment over the other. However you are ignoring complex social and genetic factors which underlay the apparent sexism. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. Only thing I'm getting involved in on this topic as last time I got flamed. I completely agree. Dress it up how you like but clubs are effectively pimps." Go to Xtasia this weekend and I bet you dont come away with that observation after two nights of Phukt. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. Only thing I'm getting involved in on this topic as last time I got flamed. I completely agree. Dress it up how you like but clubs are effectively pimps. Flamed by those who claim to be open minded haha. The same people who bang on about double standards, yet only when they affect the one gender. Basically people who regurgitate received information and have no capacity for analytical thinking. Of course there are different standards for different people, that is the way of the world. " Lol I am very capable of analytical thinking thank you, I just analytically think different to you!!! I speak from some personal experience that not in all cases does a woman doing the exact same job as a man get paid the same.....ALSO jobs/roles in the public sector 'traditionally' taken by woman attract a lower pay than what I feel equivalent jobs/roles 'traditionally' taken by men pay......again my opinion from my own analytical thinking!! | |||
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"Slightly off the swingers club theme I have issue with gyms, pools, sporting events and such that are women only I mean fine if they want to be but I can picture the fuss that would happen should a place be a male only night " I went to go the use the health spa at my gym a couple of Fridays ago and couldn't as it was men only all day Friday. | |||
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" It can be both 'sexist' and 'business'. And I agree with your second point. I'm not interested in going places that treat me as bait. Of course semantically you are correct. In which case both examples are sexist. On the surface one sex is receiving preferential treatment over the other. However you are ignoring complex social and genetic factors which underlay the apparent sexism. " Yes, and it's my personal belief that those things make both of your points sexism. It's not 'apparent' sexism, it IS sexism. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. Only thing I'm getting involved in on this topic as last time I got flamed. I completely agree. Dress it up how you like but clubs are effectively pimps. Flamed by those who claim to be open minded haha. The same people who bang on about double standards, yet only when they affect the one gender. Basically people who regurgitate received information and have no capacity for analytical thinking. Of course there are different standards for different people, that is the way of the world. Lol I am very capable of analytical thinking thank you, I just analytically think different to you!!! I speak from some personal experience that not in all cases does a woman doing the exact same job as a man get paid the same.....ALSO jobs/roles in the public sector 'traditionally' taken by woman attract a lower pay than what I feel equivalent jobs/roles 'traditionally' taken by men pay......again my opinion from my own analytical thinking!! " Well if you have experience of someone paying a woman less for the same work as a man, report it. That's illegal.. On your second comment. There is always the element of choice. One cannot pick an underpaid job as a receptionist, and then complain that an engineer is getting paid more.. The only people stopping people in under paid jobs from seeking better paid jobs are the people themselves, male or female.. There is no hidden agenda at work to keep women at the bottom. Obviously it takes time for us to see change, but we are well on the way. | |||
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" Yes, and it's my personal belief that those things make both of your points sexism. It's not 'apparent' sexism, it IS sexism." Well no it is 'apparent' because if you analyse the mechanisms leading to these sexist institutions, there is no prejudice. Just people capitalising on the very dynamics of human nature. Which as I have said previously is still immoral in my opinion. | |||
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"I'm sure this must have been debated before but I could not access search on my mobile. So Apologies beforehand Most clubs saunas etc charge single males a lot more than single women usually more than double. I know one that charges women £5, another free for women and both charge single men £50! How can they get away with it? They know they have to get women in to attract the men but does that mean blatant rip off? Barry Hearn the former Leyton Orient chairman had a cheP season ticket deL for women £50 I think he did thAt to Attract more women fans. But a male orient fan complained to the equalities commission which ruled in his favour that the club was discriminating against men with thAt deAl so they were forced to scrap it. How do swingers clubs get away with what they charge single men? Hasn't anyone raised this with equality authorities? Do it, go on be brave. Contact the relevant authority and make a formal complaint. You could become famous as the person who changed swinging clubs forever." or not lol | |||
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" Yes, and it's my personal belief that those things make both of your points sexism. It's not 'apparent' sexism, it IS sexism. Well no it is 'apparent' because if you analyse the mechanisms leading to these sexist institutions, there is no prejudice. Just people capitalising on the very dynamics of human nature. Which as I have said previously is still immoral in my opinion. " Sexism is prejudice OR discrimination OR stereotyping against someone due to their sex/gender. Charging men more for entrance to clubs is discrimination. Using women as bait for selling newspapers and getting single men into clubs is stereotyping negatively. Both are sexist. And as you say, quite morally wrong. Saying they're not sexist is just helping people to shove the problems under the rug and pretend that they don't exist. | |||
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"On your second comment. There is always the element of choice. One cannot pick an underpaid job as a receptionist, and then complain that an engineer is getting paid more.. The only people stopping people in under paid jobs from seeking better paid jobs are the people themselves, male or female.. There is no hidden agenda at work to keep women at the bottom. Obviously it takes time for us to see change, but we are well on the way. " The problem is that women are often not given the same opportunities in life. We're expected to focus on things like childbearing and housekeeping and therefore choose jobs that fit in around those lifestyles. We're also pushed towards more 'caring' jobs - for instance it's generally considered that women would be nurses and men would be doctors by many. Male nurses and women doctors are exceptions - still. Look at teaching too. It's more likely that a woman will be pushed towards primary teaching or early secondary, and men would be pushed towards secondary teaching, university lecturing or managerial positions within schools. It's sometimes very difficult to break out of that system when you've been told for your whole life that society expects you to do particular things. It's changing, but it's changing quite slowly. We'll see parity one day I hope. | |||
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" Sexism is prejudice OR discrimination OR stereotyping against someone due to their sex/gender. Charging men more for entrance to clubs is discrimination. Using women as bait for selling newspapers and getting single men into clubs is stereotyping negatively. Both are sexist. And as you say, quite morally wrong. Saying they're not sexist is just helping people to shove the problems under the rug and pretend that they don't exist." Of course you are right in what you say. There is no problem to be solved though. Discrimination does and always will happen. We are not all equal, some are smarter than others, some are more are attractive. Of course equal opportunity, and equal rights should be sacrosanct, but this is not the same thing as social, political, and economic equality. The fact that people are willing to stereotypically exploit certain groups for profit at the expense of morality is a problem of capitalism, not societal Patriarchy. | |||
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" The problem is that women are often not given the same opportunities in life. We're expected to focus on things like childbearing and housekeeping and therefore choose jobs that fit in around those lifestyles. We're also pushed towards more 'caring' jobs - for instance it's generally considered that women would be nurses and men would be doctors by many. Male nurses and women doctors are exceptions - still. Look at teaching too. It's more likely that a woman will be pushed towards primary teaching or early secondary, and men would be pushed towards secondary teaching, university lecturing or managerial positions within schools. It's sometimes very difficult to break out of that system when you've been told for your whole life that society expects you to do particular things. It's changing, but it's changing quite slowly. We'll see parity one day I hope." That is all subjective rhetoric. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but what you say is not fact. There is zero empirical evidence that, what with parity in curriculums etc, women are encouraged into certain roles. It is effectively the chicken vs. the egg argument. Do women generally speaking seek out the kind of roles you talk about, or do they only seek them out because of societal pressure. Your view may be correct, but you cannot treat it as fact without evidence. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. Only thing I'm getting involved in on this topic as last time I got flamed. I completely agree. Dress it up how you like but clubs are effectively pimps. Flamed by those who claim to be open minded haha. The same people who bang on about double standards, yet only when they affect the one gender. Basically people who regurgitate received information and have no capacity for analytical thinking. Of course there are different standards for different people, that is the way of the world. Lol I am very capable of analytical thinking thank you, I just analytically think different to you!!! I speak from some personal experience that not in all cases does a woman doing the exact same job as a man get paid the same.....ALSO jobs/roles in the public sector 'traditionally' taken by woman attract a lower pay than what I feel equivalent jobs/roles 'traditionally' taken by men pay......again my opinion from my own analytical thinking!! Well if you have experience of someone paying a woman less for the same work as a man, report it. That's illegal.. On your second comment. There is always the element of choice. One cannot pick an underpaid job as a receptionist, and then complain that an engineer is getting paid more.. The only people stopping people in under paid jobs from seeking better paid jobs are the people themselves, male or female.. There is no hidden agenda at work to keep women at the bottom. Obviously it takes time for us to see change, but we are well on the way. " Receptionists and engineers? Not comparable!! Element of choice? I 'chose' nursing as I'm good at it and it's what I wanted to do.......the fact my pay is less than what I feel are equivalent public sector jobs is definitely something us nurses would love to change and indeed our unions have tried for (not very aggressively) if you have a read up on the reasons for example nurses pay is less than a police officers (considering I'm a degree graduate especially) you will stumble across arguments about sexism and female orientated careers etc you can then analytically debate the subject with me. There is definitely an agenda to keep nurses from getting more money lol 
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" That is all subjective rhetoric. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but what you say is not fact. There is zero empirical evidence that, what with parity in curriculums etc, women are encouraged into certain roles." You are quite right. My own experiences here count for nothing... Never mind that the response from people when I tell them I'm studying at university at the age of 30 is usually 'oh, don't you want a husband and children? You don't really need a degree or career for that'. Or the response at the girls school I went to when my best friend said in the careers office that she wanted to be a doctor was 'have you considered nursing?' (she's now a successful doctor in the running for being made a consultant). Just two examples off the top of my head. Most of my friends who are women would tell you similar stories without any problems. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. Only thing I'm getting involved in on this topic as last time I got flamed. I completely agree. Dress it up how you like but clubs are effectively pimps. Flamed by those who claim to be open minded haha. The same people who bang on about double standards, yet only when they affect the one gender. Basically people who regurgitate received information and have no capacity for analytical thinking. Of course there are different standards for different people, that is the way of the world. Lol I am very capable of analytical thinking thank you, I just analytically think different to you!!! I speak from some personal experience that not in all cases does a woman doing the exact same job as a man get paid the same.....ALSO jobs/roles in the public sector 'traditionally' taken by woman attract a lower pay than what I feel equivalent jobs/roles 'traditionally' taken by men pay......again my opinion from my own analytical thinking!! Well if you have experience of someone paying a woman less for the same work as a man, report it. That's illegal.. On your second comment. There is always the element of choice. One cannot pick an underpaid job as a receptionist, and then complain that an engineer is getting paid more.. The only people stopping people in under paid jobs from seeking better paid jobs are the people themselves, male or female.. There is no hidden agenda at work to keep women at the bottom. Obviously it takes time for us to see change, but we are well on the way. Receptionists and engineers? Not comparable!! Element of choice? I 'chose' nursing as I'm good at it and it's what I wanted to do.......the fact my pay is less than what I feel are equivalent public sector jobs is definitely something us nurses would love to change and indeed our unions have tried for (not very aggressively) if you have a read up on the reasons for example nurses pay is less than a police officers (considering I'm a degree graduate especially) you will stumble across arguments about sexism and female orientated careers etc you can then analytically debate the subject with me. There is definitely an agenda to keep nurses from getting more money lol
"but nurses are male or female so how does that marry up to your females being paid less than males arguement? are you saying your male colleagues are paid more than you with similar experience and training? now you have turned it into a role being paid less than a perceived equivalent role so moved the goal posts. | |||
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" Receptionists and engineers? Not comparable!!" Exactly, and those are the kind of comparisons made by those talking bout wage disparity! " Element of choice? I 'chose' nursing as I'm good at it and it's what I wanted to do.......the fact my pay is less than what I feel are equivalent public sector jobs is definitely something us nurses would love to change and indeed our unions have tried for (not very aggressively) if you have a read up on the reasons for example nurses pay is less than a police officers (considering I'm a degree graduate especially) you will stumble across arguments about sexism and female orientated careers etc you can then analytically debate the subject with me. There is definitely an agenda to keep nurses from getting more money lol
"I totally agree with you that Nurses are underpaid. I fail to see where the sexism comes into that though.. | |||
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" You are quite right. My own experiences here count for nothing... Never mind that the response from people when I tell them I'm studying at university at the age of 30 is usually 'oh, don't you want a husband and children? You don't really need a degree or career for that'. Or the response at the girls school I went to when my best friend said in the careers office that she wanted to be a doctor was 'have you considered nursing?' (she's now a successful doctor in the running for being made a consultant). Just two examples off the top of my head. Most of my friends who are women would tell you similar stories without any problems." By no means do your own experiences count for nothing. They count for everything. You cannot attempt to explain the world through your own experience though. I don't disbelieve that there are those who still hold archaic sexist attitudes, but how to any of those examples provide example of women being stopped from achieving what they want to achieve. If anything they are success stories, and evidence to change and the system now beginning to work properly.? | |||
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"You don't listen lol.....there's an argument that nurses are underpaid compared to comparable careers due to it being a 'female' occupation......it's an interesting view point worth a read "Exactly, an argument. Not hard fact.Send me the link though, i'd love a read! | |||
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"Maybe clubs are trying to offset the gender pay gap that still exists.......
There are inequalities more unfair than single men paying more to get in a sex club, especially ones that don't have the element of choice!!
That whole gender pay gay thing is such a disingenuous argument. Statistics gathered by academic 'feminists', used to intentionally mislead. For the same job, with the same level of experience there is no pay gap!
Those studies which say otherwise either compare the earnings of a female graduate with a senior male in the same line of work. Or the overall earnings of both genders, without taking into account the type of work which is carried out. As the old saying goes; there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics. "And here we have the classic denial response combined with belittling the wealth of evidence in this area by an individual benefitting from the status quo. Note the pejorative way he uses the term 'feminist'. Still, these threads are good for bringing out into the light the veiled misogynist. | |||
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" And here we have the classic denial response combined with belittling the wealth of evidence in this area by an individual benefitting from the status quo. Note the pejorative way he uses the term 'feminist'. Still, these threads are good for bringing out into the light the veiled misogynist. " And here we have the classic bigoted feminist. No not all feminists are bigoted, but those who discredit those who do not share their ideology as misogynists most definitely are. I am not using the word feminist pejoratively at all. I used the inverted comma for academic 'feminists' because i do not believe these people are true feminists at all. They spread misinformation and exaggerate facts. Real feminists are the people in Quatar fighting for the right to an education, or to drive a car.. | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ?" I only have experience of one club on a singles night and they managed the entrance policy by making sure that men who had phoned ahead got in where as you could not just turn up. It was also a certain amount I believe | |||
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" And here we have the classic denial response combined with belittling the wealth of evidence in this area by an individual benefitting from the status quo. Note the pejorative way he uses the term 'feminist'. Still, these threads are good for bringing out into the light the veiled misogynist. And here we have the classic bigoted feminist. No not all feminists are bigoted, but those who discredit those who do not share their ideology as misogynists most definitely are. I am not using the word feminist pejoratively at all. I used the inverted comma for academic 'feminists' because i do not believe these people are true feminists at all. They spread misinformation and exaggerate facts. Real feminists are the people in Quatar fighting for the right to an education, or to drive a car.. " What makes them a 'real feminist'? | |||
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" And here we have the classic denial response combined with belittling the wealth of evidence in this area by an individual benefitting from the status quo. Note the pejorative way he uses the term 'feminist'. Still, these threads are good for bringing out into the light the veiled misogynist. And here we have the classic bigoted feminist. No not all feminists are bigoted, but those who discredit those who do not share their ideology as misogynists most definitely are. I am not using the word feminist pejoratively at all. I used the inverted comma for academic 'feminists' because i do not believe these people are true feminists at all. They spread misinformation and exaggerate facts. Real feminists are the people in Quatar fighting for the right to an education, or to drive a car.. What makes them a 'real feminist'?" Fighting for a genuine cause, rather than sitting behind a computer spreading misinformation, and opinion veiled as fact.. | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ?" There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number. | |||
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" And here we have the classic denial response combined with belittling the wealth of evidence in this area by an individual benefitting from the status quo. Note the pejorative way he uses the term 'feminist'. Still, these threads are good for bringing out into the light the veiled misogynist. And here we have the classic bigoted feminist. No not all feminists are bigoted, but those who discredit those who do not share their ideology as misogynists most definitely are. I am not using the word feminist pejoratively at all. I used the inverted comma for academic 'feminists' because i do not believe these people are true feminists at all. They spread misinformation and exaggerate facts. Real feminists are the people in Quatar fighting for the right to an education, or to drive a car.. " Am I less of a feminist because I don't drive a car in Quatar? | |||
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" Am I less of a feminist because I don't drive a car in Quatar?" I'm not going to answer your leading question. If you have a point I will gladly discuss. | |||
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" Am I less of a feminist because I don't drive a car in Quatar? I'm not going to answer your leading question. If you have a point I will gladly discuss. "It is a question, I used your examples. But if you need it expanded... You marginalise any movement made by a woman to assert herself as a feminist because she does not fit your male viewpoint of what a feminist should be. Do you not see the ridiculousness of this? We live in a patriarchal society and gender is a social construct of that society. Women are not born attached to a kitchen sink nor are born barbie like ready to sleep with men. They are forced to fight against this stereotype everyday of their lives. So my point is a woman can be an escort and still be a feminist. The men in society see a dirty whore, feminists will see a person who does a tough job in a tough economy where demand is fuelled by mens wants. | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ? There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number." That's us  | |||
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" It is a question, I used your examples. But if you need it expanded... You marginalise any movement made by a woman to assert herself as a feminist because she does not fit your male viewpoint of what a feminist should be. Do you not see the ridiculousness of this? We live in a patriarchal society and gender is a social construct of that society. Women are not born attached to a kitchen sink nor are born barbie like ready to sleep with men. They are forced to fight against this stereotype everyday of their lives. So my point is a woman can be an escort and still be a feminist. The men in society see a dirty whore, feminists will see a person who does a tough job in a tough economy where demand is fuelled by mens wants. " Which movement have I marginalised? See you are just spouting received rhetoric. Painting me as some kind of enemy when you know nothing of my views beliefs or motivations. Yes we live in a patriarchal society. Every society throughout history has been patriarchal. We need more women in positions of power, society would be so much better on the whole. What I disagree with is the narrative used to explain certain things. The misrepresentation of facts, the shifting goalposts as someone else (another woman) pointed out further up the thread. Regarding your comments about escorts. I'm not sure where they have come from.. But have a read around the forum; a lot of the feminists here make claims such as the women involved in escorting are being exploited etc etc. I think it's pretty offensive to suggest a woman cannot make an adult decision to be an escort and is simply at the whim of male desire. I see escorts, male or female, as people getting paid for something which they enjoy.. I know I'm just a man, and should see escorts as dirty whores, but I am deeply sorry for not conforming to your prejudices. | |||
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" Gender is a social construct " That is one of the central philosophies of feminism. It is a matter of huge debate in the scientific community. Nurture or nature? Yet you state it as fact.. | |||
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" And here we have the classic denial response combined with belittling the wealth of evidence in this area by an individual benefitting from the status quo. Note the pejorative way he uses the term 'feminist'. Still, these threads are good for bringing out into the light the veiled misogynist. And here we have the classic bigoted feminist. No not all feminists are bigoted, but those who discredit those who do not share their ideology as misogynists most definitely are. I am not using the word feminist pejoratively at all. I used the inverted comma for academic 'feminists' because i do not believe these people are true feminists at all. They spread misinformation and exaggerate facts. Real feminists are the people in Quatar fighting for the right to an education, or to drive a car.. " Actually, that isn't what academic feminism is. I am an academic feminist. I work in the field of history of art. I look at the history of women artists and the way that current art is relevent to women. What you seem to dislike is people who identify as feminists and live in the west, which is a rather different thing. | |||
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" Gender is a social construct That is one of the central philosophies of feminism. It is a matter of huge debate in the scientific community. Nurture or nature? Yet you state it as fact.. " You should read some Halberstam, it's the latest thinking on this subject. The scientific community has basically agreed that gender and sex are totally different things. The academic community basically agrees that gender is fluid and socially determined. Gender is a social construct. Most academics, science and humanities, agree with this. People who don't are really edge cases. However this has not yet really filtered down to everyone else yet. | |||
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" Yes we live in a patriarchal society. Every society throughout history has been patriarchal. We need more women in positions of power, society would be so much better on the whole. I see escorts, male or female, as people getting paid for something which they enjoy.. I know I'm just a man, and should see escorts as dirty whores, but I am deeply sorry for not conforming to your prejudices. " Firstly, our world has seen matriarchal societies, so your first paragraph here is factually incorrect. Secondly... The Your second statement is slightly ignorant. There are many people who are not escorts for fun and because they enjoy sex. Studies in the past have suggested that a large proportion *do not* want to be escorts. Many women are trafficked into the country and are forced to work as escorts for example. Many are forced into it with threats of violence against themselves or their children. For many women, it's basically rape because they do not want to have sex, but there is no other option. For many other women it is because they struggle to find work in our society. They have been failed for various reasons. By us. Getting a job that pays enough money to run a household is hard enough today, but many women are at a disadvantage because the odds are stacked against them in many ways. Many women are not prepared for the world in the same way that most men are, because society expect different things from women to men. It's very subtle, but it happens. Believe me. I went into porn for similar reasons. I didn't want to do porn. I didn't enjoy porn at all. I had very few choices at one point. Your argument that all sex workers enjoy their job is just completely wrong I'm afraid. A good portion of them don't, but they don't feel that they have any other options. | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change. "I do as only go with fbs they aint screwing me. | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change. "This will never happen and no it won't | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change.
This will never happen and no it won't"I wish it would though, so that I can go to more clubs without feeling like I'm bait... | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ? There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number. That's us "So a club sets a limit and you have to phone to book. What happens when half those who phoned don't show up? There's less single men and some of those who would have liked to have gone can't. And how is the limit set when unless couples and single females are also booking, you can't calculate the ratios? The first come, first in argument? Would people honestly travel miles, pay for taxis/drinks etc in the hope of getting in with no guarantee? The odds are the single guys will get there early to ensure entry and for the first hour or so the club will resemble a working mans club of the past. When the first couples/women arrive they'll be greeted with the sight of unequal ratios which will potentially give a false impression of the club and may even result in them leaving. I've yet to visit a club that is short of single guys. So whilst there are plenty of vocal disgruntled men on the forums stating 'it's unfair' and 'I'll never go to clubs' it seems there are far more that are happy to, enjoy the club scene, and who have way less of an issue with membership/entry fees. A | |||
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So clubs will always offer free or small ammounts to woman to encourage them to come to there clubs
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ? There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number. That's us
So a club sets a limit and you have to phone to book. What happens when half those who phoned don't show up? There's less single men and some of those who would have liked to have gone can't.
And how is the limit set when unless couples and single females are also booking, you can't calculate the ratios?
The first come, first in argument? Would people honestly travel miles, pay for taxis/drinks etc in the hope of getting in with no guarantee? The odds are the single guys will get there early to ensure entry and for the first hour or so the club will resemble a working mans club of the past. When the first couples/women arrive they'll be greeted with the sight of unequal ratios which will potentially give a false impression of the club and may even result in them leaving.
I've yet to visit a club that is short of single guys. So whilst there are plenty of vocal disgruntled men on the forums stating 'it's unfair' and 'I'll never go to clubs' it seems there are far more that are happy to, enjoy the club scene, and who have way less of an issue with membership/entry fees.
A"Only guys who are established members can book in for our limited nights, which are saturday nights; we have a limit of 8 guys on this night. They know that they should only put their name down if they can definitely make it and they don't waste our time and spaces as we have a 3 strikes rule if they don't turn up. Our single guy places are taken every week and rarely we are let down as only genuine guys will book. If someone cancels, then we can offer it out to a member who calls last minute. Our other swinging night on a Weds is not limited as we get lots of couples and girls who like to meet guys, but we if our ratio becomes guy heavy, we tell guys what the numbers are like on arrival and let them decide if they want to come in. We also have other events like MILF Monday which is the same price for everybody and Thurs/Sun nights which are also the same price. On 'MILF' we can take lots of guys and get our full quota everytime; on Thurs and Sundays we never have a problem of too many guys even with the 'same price for all' policy. Our limiting on a Saturday has worked for years and suits our couples who don't want lots of guys wandering around. We don't charge them a premium rate OR a membership fee to come in on this night. This works for us, but I know other clubs that don't have a limit and charge a fortune, yet still get lots of male guests, so there are people who are willing to pay. | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change.
This will never happen and no it won't
I wish it would though, so that I can go to more clubs without feeling like I'm bait..."personnelly men are my bait | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change. "
It does seem to be a happy and fortuitous happenstance, that clubs ONLY method of controlling single male numbers is by charging them the earth, and couples and single then get to skip through the doors with their wallets still full. Perhaps, and this really is out of the box thinking, a parity could be found, and numbers controlled by membership. No more single males as the club quota is full, until someone's membership runs out or is rescinded. But then of course couples would have to pay that bit more. Boo fucking hoo. | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change.
It does seem to be a happy and fortuitous happenstance, that clubs ONLY method of controlling single male numbers is by charging them the earth, and couples and single then get to skip through the doors with their wallets still full. Perhaps, and this really is out of the box thinking, a parity could be found, and numbers controlled by membership. No more single males as the club quota is full, until someone's membership runs out or is rescinded. But then of course couples would have to pay that bit more. Boo fucking hoo. "You obviously haven't read all of the club responses...look up 2 or 3 messages! lol | |||
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"It is. And it should be. Because it's also human nature. And every club would just have single men and then everyone would be disappointed..." Not everyone would be disappointed | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change.
It does seem to be a happy and fortuitous happenstance, that clubs ONLY method of controlling single male numbers is by charging them the earth, and couples and single then get to skip through the doors with their wallets still full. Perhaps, and this really is out of the box thinking, a parity could be found, and numbers controlled by membership. No more single males as the club quota is full, until someone's membership runs out or is rescinded. But then of course couples would have to pay that bit more. Boo fucking hoo.
You obviously haven't read all of the club responses...look up 2 or 3 messages! lol"Though you ARE in the minority. | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change.
It does seem to be a happy and fortuitous happenstance, that clubs ONLY method of controlling single male numbers is by charging them the earth, and couples and single then get to skip through the doors with their wallets still full. Perhaps, and this really is out of the box thinking, a parity could be found, and numbers controlled by membership. No more single males as the club quota is full, until someone's membership runs out or is rescinded. But then of course couples would have to pay that bit more. Boo fucking hoo.
You obviously haven't read all of the club responses...look up 2 or 3 messages! lol
Though you ARE in the minority."Yes we are and it works for us x | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ? There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number. That's us
So a club sets a limit and you have to phone to book. What happens when half those who phoned don't show up? There's less single men and some of those who would have liked to have gone can't.
And how is the limit set when unless couples and single females are also booking, you can't calculate the ratios?
The first come, first in argument? Would people honestly travel miles, pay for taxis/drinks etc in the hope of getting in with no guarantee? The odds are the single guys will get there early to ensure entry and for the first hour or so the club will resemble a working mans club of the past. When the first couples/women arrive they'll be greeted with the sight of unequal ratios which will potentially give a false impression of the club and may even result in them leaving.
I've yet to visit a club that is short of single guys. So whilst there are plenty of vocal disgruntled men on the forums stating 'it's unfair' and 'I'll never go to clubs' it seems there are far more that are happy to, enjoy the club scene, and who have way less of an issue with membership/entry fees.
A
Only guys who are established members can book in for our limited nights, which are saturday nights; we have a limit of 8 guys on this night. They know that they should only put their name down if they can definitely make it and they don't waste our time and spaces as we have a 3 strikes rule if they don't turn up. Our single guy places are taken every week and rarely we are let down as only genuine guys will book. If someone cancels, then we can offer it out to a member who calls last minute.
Our other swinging night on a Weds is not limited as we get lots of couples and girls who like to meet guys, but we if our ratio becomes guy heavy, we tell guys what the numbers are like on arrival and let them decide if they want to come in.
We also have other events like MILF Monday which is the same price for everybody and Thurs/Sun nights which are also the same price. On 'MILF' we can take lots of guys and get our full quota everytime; on Thurs and Sundays we never have a problem of too many guys even with the 'same price for all' policy.
Our limiting on a Saturday has worked for years and suits our couples who don't want lots of guys wandering around. We don't charge them a premium rate OR a membership fee to come in on this night. This works for us, but I know other clubs that don't have a limit and charge a fortune, yet still get lots of male guests, so there are people who are willing to pay. "Only eight single men? Thats not really enough to make me want to go - because I'm unlikely to find by of them attractive if there's only eight! I want to be able to pick someone hot with a good personality! | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change.
It does seem to be a happy and fortuitous happenstance, that clubs ONLY method of controlling single male numbers is by charging them the earth, and couples and single then get to skip through the doors with their wallets still full. Perhaps, and this really is out of the box thinking, a parity could be found, and numbers controlled by membership. No more single males as the club quota is full, until someone's membership runs out or is rescinded. But then of course couples would have to pay that bit more. Boo fucking hoo. "There is £5 difference in entrance fees where we go so we hardly skip through the door with a full wallet. Pays to shop around plenty of clubs with more reasonable prices although may not be local. | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change.
It does seem to be a happy and fortuitous happenstance, that clubs ONLY method of controlling single male numbers is by charging them the earth, and couples and single then get to skip through the doors with their wallets still full. Perhaps, and this really is out of the box thinking, a parity could be found, and numbers controlled by membership. No more single males as the club quota is full, until someone's membership runs out or is rescinded. But then of course couples would have to pay that bit more. Boo fucking hoo. "How can entry ratios be controlled by membership? 
Do all members of clubs attend every night they are open?
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ? There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number. That's us
So a club sets a limit and you have to phone to book. What happens when half those who phoned don't show up? There's less single men and some of those who would have liked to have gone can't.
And how is the limit set when unless couples and single females are also booking, you can't calculate the ratios?
The first come, first in argument? Would people honestly travel miles, pay for taxis/drinks etc in the hope of getting in with no guarantee? The odds are the single guys will get there early to ensure entry and for the first hour or so the club will resemble a working mans club of the past. When the first couples/women arrive they'll be greeted with the sight of unequal ratios which will potentially give a false impression of the club and may even result in them leaving.
I've yet to visit a club that is short of single guys. So whilst there are plenty of vocal disgruntled men on the forums stating 'it's unfair' and 'I'll never go to clubs' it seems there are far more that are happy to, enjoy the club scene, and who have way less of an issue with membership/entry fees.
A
Only guys who are established members can book in for our limited nights, which are saturday nights; we have a limit of 8 guys on this night. They know that they should only put their name down if they can definitely make it and they don't waste our time and spaces as we have a 3 strikes rule if they don't turn up. Our single guy places are taken every week and rarely we are let down as only genuine guys will book. If someone cancels, then we can offer it out to a member who calls last minute.
Our other swinging night on a Weds is not limited as we get lots of couples and girls who like to meet guys, but we if our ratio becomes guy heavy, we tell guys what the numbers are like on arrival and let them decide if they want to come in.
We also have other events like MILF Monday which is the same price for everybody and Thurs/Sun nights which are also the same price. On 'MILF' we can take lots of guys and get our full quota everytime; on Thurs and Sundays we never have a problem of too many guys even with the 'same price for all' policy.
Our limiting on a Saturday has worked for years and suits our couples who don't want lots of guys wandering around. We don't charge them a premium rate OR a membership fee to come in on this night. This works for us, but I know other clubs that don't have a limit and charge a fortune, yet still get lots of male guests, so there are people who are willing to pay.
Only eight single men? Thats not really enough to make me want to go - because I'm unlikely to find by of them attractive if there's only eight! I want to be able to pick someone hot with a good personality!"What if 80 were let in and you still didn't find any attractive? Would that be beneficial? A | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ? There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number. That's us
So a club sets a limit and you have to phone to book. What happens when half those who phoned don't show up? There's less single men and some of those who would have liked to have gone can't.
And how is the limit set when unless couples and single females are also booking, you can't calculate the ratios?
The first come, first in argument? Would people honestly travel miles, pay for taxis/drinks etc in the hope of getting in with no guarantee? The odds are the single guys will get there early to ensure entry and for the first hour or so the club will resemble a working mans club of the past. When the first couples/women arrive they'll be greeted with the sight of unequal ratios which will potentially give a false impression of the club and may even result in them leaving.
I've yet to visit a club that is short of single guys. So whilst there are plenty of vocal disgruntled men on the forums stating 'it's unfair' and 'I'll never go to clubs' it seems there are far more that are happy to, enjoy the club scene, and who have way less of an issue with membership/entry fees.
A
Only guys who are established members can book in for our limited nights, which are saturday nights; we have a limit of 8 guys on this night. They know that they should only put their name down if they can definitely make it and they don't waste our time and spaces as we have a 3 strikes rule if they don't turn up. Our single guy places are taken every week and rarely we are let down as only genuine guys will book. If someone cancels, then we can offer it out to a member who calls last minute.
Our other swinging night on a Weds is not limited as we get lots of couples and girls who like to meet guys, but we if our ratio becomes guy heavy, we tell guys what the numbers are like on arrival and let them decide if they want to come in.
We also have other events like MILF Monday which is the same price for everybody and Thurs/Sun nights which are also the same price. On 'MILF' we can take lots of guys and get our full quota everytime; on Thurs and Sundays we never have a problem of too many guys even with the 'same price for all' policy.
Our limiting on a Saturday has worked for years and suits our couples who don't want lots of guys wandering around. We don't charge them a premium rate OR a membership fee to come in on this night. This works for us, but I know other clubs that don't have a limit and charge a fortune, yet still get lots of male guests, so there are people who are willing to pay.
Only eight single men? Thats not really enough to make me want to go - because I'm unlikely to find by of them attractive if there's only eight! I want to be able to pick someone hot with a good personality!"Then you attend on a night where guys are not limited. There is a choice aspect...you have a choice to attend events where there are restrictions and a choice to attend events where there are no restrictions. Limits are only in place on a saturday. This suits the people who attend our club on this night. In fact, an awful lot of clubs are leaning towards being couples and ladies only on a saturday, so 8 is better than none! You could have 50 guys in a club and not find any attractive! lol | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ? There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number. That's us
So a club sets a limit and you have to phone to book. What happens when half those who phoned don't show up? There's less single men and some of those who would have liked to have gone can't.
And how is the limit set when unless couples and single females are also booking, you can't calculate the ratios?
The first come, first in argument? Would people honestly travel miles, pay for taxis/drinks etc in the hope of getting in with no guarantee? The odds are the single guys will get there early to ensure entry and for the first hour or so the club will resemble a working mans club of the past. When the first couples/women arrive they'll be greeted with the sight of unequal ratios which will potentially give a false impression of the club and may even result in them leaving.
I've yet to visit a club that is short of single guys. So whilst there are plenty of vocal disgruntled men on the forums stating 'it's unfair' and 'I'll never go to clubs' it seems there are far more that are happy to, enjoy the club scene, and who have way less of an issue with membership/entry fees.
A
Only guys who are established members can book in for our limited nights, which are saturday nights; we have a limit of 8 guys on this night. They know that they should only put their name down if they can definitely make it and they don't waste our time and spaces as we have a 3 strikes rule if they don't turn up. Our single guy places are taken every week and rarely we are let down as only genuine guys will book. If someone cancels, then we can offer it out to a member who calls last minute.
Our other swinging night on a Weds is not limited as we get lots of couples and girls who like to meet guys, but we if our ratio becomes guy heavy, we tell guys what the numbers are like on arrival and let them decide if they want to come in.
We also have other events like MILF Monday which is the same price for everybody and Thurs/Sun nights which are also the same price. On 'MILF' we can take lots of guys and get our full quota everytime; on Thurs and Sundays we never have a problem of too many guys even with the 'same price for all' policy.
Our limiting on a Saturday has worked for years and suits our couples who don't want lots of guys wandering around. We don't charge them a premium rate OR a membership fee to come in on this night. This works for us, but I know other clubs that don't have a limit and charge a fortune, yet still get lots of male guests, so there are people who are willing to pay.
Only eight single men? Thats not really enough to make me want to go - because I'm unlikely to find by of them attractive if there's only eight! I want to be able to pick someone hot with a good personality!
Then you attend on a night where guys are not limited. There is a choice aspect...you have a choice to attend events where there are restrictions and a choice to attend events where there are no restrictions. Limits are only in place on a saturday. This suits the people who attend our club on this night. In fact, an awful lot of clubs are leaning towards being couples and ladies only on a saturday, so 8 is better than none!
You could have 50 guys in a club and not find any attractive! lol "It's true, but I'm much more likely to click with someone if there are 50 people there. Not just 8! Saturday nights are realistically the best night for most working people to go out, so with those of us who work and look for men (as a couple and as a single) it doesn't leave us much chance for clubbing. But I guess actually *wanting* men is a serious minority still... But clubs could help change that! | |||
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" You should read some Halberstam, it's the latest thinking on this subject. The scientific community has basically agreed that gender and sex are totally different things. The academic community basically agrees that gender is fluid and socially determined. Gender is a social construct. Most academics, science and humanities, agree with this. People who don't are really edge cases. However this has not yet really filtered down to everyone else yet." Halberstam is a feminist academic... Pretty sure there is an agenda to that research, which is exactly my point.. Of course gender and sex are totally different things, however nobody can categorically say that gender is caused by socialisation. There's plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite in fact. One of the more famous examples being the little lad who due to a botched circumcision, had his penis removed on the advice of a quack doctor who suggested raising him as a girl because gender is purely a societal construct. As a toddler she always wanted to play with boys, dress like boys etc. She later had a further sex change on finding out the truth, and ultimately committed suicide. Very sad story. So my point still stands; feminism in academia is built upon an unproven principle, hence the ideology does not have the gravitas it needs for me to accept it unquestioningly. | |||
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" You should read some Halberstam, it's the latest thinking on this subject. The scientific community has basically agreed that gender and sex are totally different things. The academic community basically agrees that gender is fluid and socially determined. Gender is a social construct. Most academics, science and humanities, agree with this. People who don't are really edge cases. However this has not yet really filtered down to everyone else yet. Halberstam is a feminist academic... Pretty sure there is an agenda to that research, which is exactly my point.. Of course gender and sex are totally different things, however nobody can categorically say that gender is caused by socialisation. There's plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite in fact. One of the more famous examples being the little lad who due to a botched circumcision, had his penis removed on the advice of a quack doctor who suggested raising him as a girl because gender is purely a societal construct. As a toddler she always wanted to play with boys, dress like boys etc. She later had a further sex change on finding out the truth, and ultimately committed suicide. Very sad story. So my point still stands; feminism in academia is built upon an unproven principle, hence the ideology does not have the gravitas it needs for me to accept it unquestioningly. " Actually, Halberstam is a queer academic who is primarily interested in pop culture, and uses queer methodologies to dismantle feminist thinking... so... | |||
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" Firstly, our world has seen matriarchal societies, so your first paragraph here is factually incorrect." I know of several matrilineal societies, but no successful matriarchies, can you enlighten me? I am not saying that we have always had patriarchy because men are somehow superior, far from it. I just disagree again with the feminist narrative that women have been purposely kept down and oppressed by men for century's. We simply would not be were we are today without violent expansionism and war. Now that we are where we are, i.e a liberal and enlightened society (more so than any other point in history) we now need more matriarchal power structures, or we shall destroy the planet! Basically what i think about Capitalism as well, was a necessary evil to get us where we are today. " Secondly... The Your second statement is slightly ignorant. There are many people who are not escorts for fun and because they enjoy sex. Studies in the past have suggested that a large proportion *do not* want to be escorts. Many women are trafficked into the country and are forced to work as escorts for example. Many are forced into it with threats of violence against themselves or their children. For many women, it's basically rape because they do not want to have sex, but there is no other option. For many other women it is because they struggle to find work in our society. They have been failed for various reasons. By us. Getting a job that pays enough money to run a household is hard enough today, but many women are at a disadvantage because the odds are stacked against them in many ways. Many women are not prepared for the world in the same way that most men are, because society expect different things from women to men. It's very subtle, but it happens. Believe me. I went into porn for similar reasons. I didn't want to do porn. I didn't enjoy porn at all. I had very few choices at one point. Your argument that all sex workers enjoy their job is just completely wrong I'm afraid. A good portion of them don't, but they don't feel that they have any other options." I am not for one second ascertaining that all sex workers enjoy their jobs, I know full well that is not the case. It is you that has failed to make the distinction between escorting and prostitution. Sex trafficking is a heinous form of modern slavery and is rightly punishable by the full extent of the law. I also accept that a lot of women face economic co-ercion, however the element of choice always exists. I see that choice as a benefit rather than a hinderance. Men do not have the same choice. Possibly an explanation for higher rates of homelessness and suicide. Also your assertion that women struggle to find work in our society is based on nothing but your own ideology. Unemployment rates are actually slightly higher for men.. Thank you for engaging me on the matter in a cilvil and intellectual manner though. Most just immediately resort to childish cries of misogyny ignorance and bigotry, when in fact I actually studied feminism in a culture and society module, and know more about it than half of these shotgun feminists. I do not agree with the narrative or many of the core principles of the ideology. That does not make me a misogynist (as a few on here have already tried to claim) by any stretch of the imagination! | |||
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" Actually, Halberstam is a queer academic who is primarily interested in pop culture, and uses queer methodologies to dismantle feminist thinking... so..." Director for feminist research at USC.. | |||
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" Also your assertion that women struggle to find work in our society is based on nothing but your own ideology. Unemployment rates are actually slightly higher for men.." Unemployment rates do not take into consideration how much someone is paid. It might be easier, for example, for a woman to get a job in a clothes shop or cleaning in a hospital or similar things to that, but they don't pay as well as 'equivilent' jobs that a male might find easier to get. For instance my mother and step father work similar, lower end jobs. She is a receptionist and he is a gardener. He is paid considerably more, while their skill level is the same. (I went for a job with him and was told by the manager that I would not get on with 'the lads' because of the nature of the 'banter' in that workplace - incidentally). "Thank you for engaging me on the matter in a cilvil and intellectual manner though. Most just immediately resort to childish cries of misogyny ignorance and bigotry, when in fact I actually studied feminism in a culture and society module, and know more about it than half of these shotgun feminists. " Please don't patronise me, that attitude is worse than misogyny imo. I have just completed a module on gender and sexuality myself, it was an option from a similar course to the one that it sounds like you did. These modules are actually very basic entry level material and it does show in your arguments and understanding unfortunately. I'd suggest that if you want to engage properly in higher level discussion then you actually get reading - because your arguments show large holes in your thinking and understanding. Most of all though, your inability to put yourself empathetically in the shoes of people who actually experience this oppression 'on the ground', so to speak, really shines though. If you actually spent some time out on the street talking to people who face barriers all the time, you might begin to understand why many people quickly become frustrated with you. | |||
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" Actually, Halberstam is a queer academic who is primarily interested in pop culture, and uses queer methodologies to dismantle feminist thinking... so... Director for feminist research at USC.." Yes, quite. Queer (and black) theory is generally lumped into 'feminist' theory. If someone is head of feminist research at an institution it generally means that they are head of 'anything not mainstream or traditional' because womens, LGBT and black thinking get lumped into one single position. Which says something utterly terrible about our academic thinking globally. | |||
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" Unemployment rates do not take into consideration how much someone is paid. It might be easier, for example, for a woman to get a job in a clothes shop or cleaning in a hospital or similar things to that, but they don't pay as well as 'equivilent' jobs that a male might find easier to get. For instance my mother and step father work similar, lower end jobs. She is a receptionist and he is a gardener. He is paid considerably more, while their skill level is the same. (I went for a job with him and was told by the manager that I would not get on with 'the lads' because of the nature of the 'banter' in that workplace - incidentally). Thank you for engaging me on the matter in a cilvil and intellectual manner though. Most just immediately resort to childish cries of misogyny ignorance and bigotry, when in fact I actually studied feminism in a culture and society module, and know more about it than half of these shotgun feminists. Please don't patronise me, that attitude is worse than misogyny imo. I have just completed a module on gender and sexuality myself, it was an option from a similar course to the one that it sounds like you did. These modules are actually very basic entry level material and it does show in your arguments and understanding unfortunately. I'd suggest that if you want to engage properly in higher level discussion then you actually get reading - because your arguments show large holes in your thinking and understanding. Most of all though, your inability to put yourself empathetically in the shoes of people who actually experience this oppression 'on the ground', so to speak, really shines though. If you actually spent some time out on the street talking to people who face barriers all the time, you might begin to understand why many people quickly become frustrated with you." Your last three post have failed to challenge anything I have said directly, so now you have resorted to belittling my understanding. Who is the one being patronising again? I was being genuine, and you seemed to be actually willing to engage in debate, but now you've thrown your toys out of the pram as well. People on the streets who face barriers? Most young women are not feminists, what does that tell you? The one thing you have chosen to respond to directly is that of pay; more ideological rhetoric, with absolutely no grounding in reality. Cleaners are demographically most likely to be underpaid immigrant labour, and usually male. You cannot compare a receptionist's pay to that of a gardener at all. Landscape gardening is semi-skilled work, and back-breaking labour. You cannot even see what you're saying is totally illogical. I'm not even sure what you are even getting at with your comments on pay.. We were discussing economic factors pertaining to prostitution.. Seems that you are suggesting that receptionists turn to prostitution, in order to subsidise lower earnings than their male equivalencies? Even if what you assert has any shred of truth to it, the answer is surely to ensure all jobs pay a living wage. Rather than some very strange justification for women being forced into prostitution. Im sure a lot of receptionists out there would be quite offended. | |||
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" It is a question, I used your examples. But if you need it expanded... You marginalise any movement made by a woman to assert herself as a feminist because she does not fit your male viewpoint of what a feminist should be. Do you not see the ridiculousness of this? We live in a patriarchal society and gender is a social construct of that society. Women are not born attached to a kitchen sink nor are born barbie like ready to sleep with men. They are forced to fight against this stereotype everyday of their lives. So my point is a woman can be an escort and still be a feminist. The men in society see a dirty whore, feminists will see a person who does a tough job in a tough economy where demand is fuelled by mens wants. Which movement have I marginalised? See you are just spouting received rhetoric. Painting me as some kind of enemy when you know nothing of my views beliefs or motivations. Yes we live in a patriarchal society. Every society throughout history has been patriarchal. We need more women in positions of power, society would be so much better on the whole. What I disagree with is the narrative used to explain certain things. The misrepresentation of facts, the shifting goalposts as someone else (another woman) pointed out further up the thread. Regarding your comments about escorts. I'm not sure where they have come from.. But have a read around the forum; a lot of the feminists here make claims such as the women involved in escorting are being exploited etc etc. I think it's pretty offensive to suggest a woman cannot make an adult decision to be an escort and is simply at the whim of male desire. I see escorts, male or female, as people getting paid for something which they enjoy.. I know I'm just a man, and should see escorts as dirty whores, but I am deeply sorry for not conforming to your prejudices. " First of all, feminism sprung up as a movement to fight for the rights and equality for women in a male-dominated society. I believe you are trying to be sympathetic to women’s causes, but you are trying to define what a feminist should be and so by doing this you marginalise women. It would be the same as me trying to claim that only gay people should be protected by laws and not bisexuals, or only people with visible disabilities should only count as disabled. By trying to split these groups I marginalise them as I am neither disabled nor gay and as I don’t understand what it is to be either I contribute to the discrimination of both through my ignorance. You are doing the same to women, you are a man in a society where men dominate. I think you are trying in your own way to be sympathetic, but by dictating what a feminist is you marginalise women through your ignorance of what it means to be a woman in today’s society. Again you demonstrate this through your remarks about escorts as you seem to think that women are not being exploited by men and enjoy the job role. The sex industry is a market created by men for men, it doesn’t matter if she enjoys it or not, the escort is a job role that exists for women to cater to men’s wants. Sex work is still the fastest way for women to earn easy money, whether wife to a rich man or doing cam work out of the back bedroom. Interestingly enough only two women were self-made millionaires on the rich list? The rest had inherited it, married it or divorced to get there. Gender equality would see a woman doing sex work because she enjoys it, not because men want sex and the market exists for it. Not because she has been pressured into it to pay bills and kids to feed, and not because there are three million adverts for sex work floating about which make it easy work. But then this leads into the main argument of men and women in sex clubs, now I ask you a question: Do you not think you are trying to take a feminist argument and trying to make it about men? Sex clubs serve to fulfill demand in the same market as escorts exist in (ie men want women to have sex with and will pay – no I am not calling swingers or women escorts for those who like to make moral panic, it is a comment on the economics of swinging clubs), and by women paying less clubs meet your supply needs for women, so as you being a man win and the clubs wins. Clubs are not stupid and neither are the men who get in. Now your argument should not be about gender, it should be about social equality. These clubs make money from men paying into a club for potential sexual experiences and the well-off men who travel into the area who get in win. But you could argue that a lot of these clubs are set up in deprived areas and by charging large amounts exclude the local men who could use the facilities. Should not the clubs be helping those people who do not earn huge amounts to swing? | |||
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" People on the streets who face barriers? Most young women are not feminists, what does that tell you? " Stats please? I'd say amongst the 100+ young women on my facebook (I'm guessing I'm still young at 30) only two or three wouldn't consider myself feminist. Mind you, I didn't consider myself a feminist until I hit about 25/26 or so. I just didn't realise the problems that surrounded me until I learnt a bit more about it. It's certainly something that many people come to a bit later in life than 'young'. ". Landscape gardening is semi-skilled work, and back-breaking labour. You cannot even see what you're saying is totally illogical. " I said gardening, not landscape gardening. And to be honest, 'back breaking labour' is something that requires less skill overall than something like receptionist work, which requires a high degree of technical competence (and a good education - which gardening or labouring does not). "I'm not even sure what you are even getting at with your comments on pay.. We were discussing economic factors pertaining to prostitution.. Seems that you are suggesting that receptionists turn to prostitution, in order to subsidise lower earnings than their male equivalencies?" My apologies that you didn't follow my argument. If you look at low-end employment stats, men are often paid more (see above comments about gardeners and receptionists). Women are often forced to take low paid, part time work due to things like societal pressure, childcare, prejudice during education and so forth. Which means it can be overall harder to find employment for women that will allow them to run their household. In turn this means that women are more likely to look to work like escorting/prostitution (which are the same thing in most cases - escorting is just the 'nice' name that we give to it) because they cannot afford to support themselves and their family (because in addition women are more likely to be single caregiving parents, or carers of older relatives) and have to resort to taking work that fits around the work that they *can* secure. The answer is - of course - to ensure that all jobs have a living wage. That is for certain. But that is not the only answer. We also have to: - Eradicate sexism in schools (for instance we were encouraged into subjects like textiles and shorthand rather than design technology and science at school). - And we have to make it so that it's not considered by employers that a woman in her 20s is a bad choice for employment because she's going to decide to pop out babies (thus costing the company oodles of maternity leave and the cost of paying for replacement staff). - And of course, we have to eradicate the 'laddish banter' (read, sexist banter) in many workplaces (like gardening jobs, logistics jobs, etc) so that women can more easily look at practical jobs like that as a potential career. And those three things are just the tip of an iceberg to be honest. I could have easily listed twenty attitudes that have to change before we can start to see equality. You have to try and empathise with people. Put yourselves in their shoes. Imagine how it feels to be asked at interview if you're planning to have children in the next ten years. Or be told that it's a very blokey workplace and you'll likely be offended by the banter. Or to just be told at the age of 14 that your gender 'isn't really very good at science' and of course 'you don't need university anyway, you're going to just get married and look after kids'. We're failing girls and young women in this country. Over and over again. We're failing to give them, on the whole, an equal start in life through various social factors. Things are changing, and it's no doubt the best that it's ever been in this country, but we have a long way to go until we're all on the same footing. | |||
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" So a club sets a limit and you have to phone to book. What happens when half those who phoned don't show up? A" You give them your membership number over the phone, if you fail to turn up you have your membership cancelled. With a waiting list for single guys at some clubs, the number of men abusing this system would be low for fear of membership being ended. | |||
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" First of all, feminism sprung up as a movement to fight for the rights and equality for women in a male-dominated society. I believe you are trying to be sympathetic to women’s causes, but you are trying to define what a feminist should be and so by doing this you marginalise women. It would be the same as me trying to claim that only gay people should be protected by laws and not bisexuals, or only people with visible disabilities should only count as disabled. By trying to split these groups I marginalise them as I am neither disabled nor gay and as I don’t understand what it is to be either I contribute to the discrimination of both through my ignorance. You are doing the same to women, you are a man in a society where men dominate. I think you are trying in your own way to be sympathetic, but by dictating what a feminist is you marginalise women through your ignorance of what it means to be a woman in today’s society. Again you demonstrate this through your remarks about escorts as you seem to think that women are not being exploited by men and enjoy the job role. The sex industry is a market created by men for men, it doesn’t matter if she enjoys it or not, the escort is a job role that exists for women to cater to men’s wants. Sex work is still the fastest way for women to earn easy money, whether wife to a rich man or doing cam work out of the back bedroom. Interestingly enough only two women were self-made millionaires on the rich list? The rest had inherited it, married it or divorced to get there. Gender equality would see a woman doing sex work because she enjoys it, not because men want sex and the market exists for it. Not because she has been pressured into it to pay bills and kids to feed, and not because there are three million adverts for sex work floating about which make it easy work. But then this leads into the main argument of men and women in sex clubs, now I ask you a question: Do you not think you are trying to take a feminist argument and trying to make it about men? Sex clubs serve to fulfill demand in the same market as escorts exist in (ie men want women to have sex with and will pay – no I am not calling swingers or women escorts for those who like to make moral panic, it is a comment on the economics of swinging clubs), and by women paying less clubs meet your supply needs for women, so as you being a man win and the clubs wins. Clubs are not stupid and neither are the men who get in. Now your argument should not be about gender, it should be about social equality. These clubs make money from men paying into a club for potential sexual experiences and the well-off men who travel into the area who get in win. But you could argue that a lot of these clubs are set up in deprived areas and by charging large amounts exclude the local men who could use the facilities. Should not the clubs be helping those people who do not earn huge amounts to swing? " I know exactly how and why feminism sprung up. I fully support the routes of feminism, and the end goals. However i believe the narrative has now become twisted and that is what i do not agree with. That twisted narrative is what gives credence to the majority of contemporary western feminist theory. I think most of this theory creates conflict and division, rather than union, which is what is necessary to effect real change. If you want to discuss elements which I believe have become twisted, i am quite happy to do so. I don't think you have read my previous posts have you? I am not arguing that there is sexism against men in clubs at all.. In fact i said the opposite. With the escorting, there is an argument (and a feminist one at that) which purports that it is actually the empowered female escorts, strippers etc. that are exploiting the men. Not all or even most women feel the same way as you do. My point being that your ideology is not necessarily the reality. | |||
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"Wow.... Talk about a topic that has been hijacked to push an agenda All well and good talking about semantics and theories... But it doesn't relate to real situations " Op has stated that clubs should be reported for not charging same as men and women. I think this is a dumb idea as clubs are geared towards looking after mens needs. I think his argument should be more abut money and peoples ability to pay £50 quid to get into a club. Simples | |||
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"It is. And it should be. Because it's also human nature. And every club would just have single men and then everyone would be disappointed..." This | |||
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"Wow.... Talk about a topic that has been hijacked to push an agenda All well and good talking about semantics and theories... But it doesn't relate to real situations Op has stated that clubs should be reported for not charging same as men and women. I think this is a dumb idea as clubs are geared towards looking after mens needs. I think his argument should be more abut money and peoples ability to pay £50 quid to get into a club. Simples " Trust me it's not your contribution I was alluding to... It's what happened about half way down the thread | |||
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"Wow.... Talk about a topic that has been hijacked to push an agenda All well and good talking about semantics and theories... But it doesn't relate to real situations " And there was I thinking that it was. "Last word" thread but with only two people in it. | |||
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"Slightly off the swingers club theme I have issue with gyms, pools, sporting events and such that are women only I mean fine if they want to be but I can picture the fuss that would happen should a place be a male only night " Female only swimming at my local pool once a week, so much more relaxed and no-one pushing you out the way - I dont mean to cause a stir, and I never thought I would prefer it, but I do .. | |||
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" People on the streets who face barriers? Most young women are not feminists, what does that tell you? Stats please? I'd say amongst the 100+ young women on my facebook (I'm guessing I'm still young at 30) only two or three wouldn't consider myself feminist. Mind you, I didn't consider myself a feminist until I hit about 25/26 or so. I just didn't realise the problems that surrounded me until I learnt a bit more about it. It's certainly something that many people come to a bit later in life than 'young'. . Landscape gardening is semi-skilled work, and back-breaking labour. You cannot even see what you're saying is totally illogical. I said gardening, not landscape gardening. And to be honest, 'back breaking labour' is something that requires less skill overall than something like receptionist work, which requires a high degree of technical competence (and a good education - which gardening or labouring does not). I'm not even sure what you are even getting at with your comments on pay.. We were discussing economic factors pertaining to prostitution.. Seems that you are suggesting that receptionists turn to prostitution, in order to subsidise lower earnings than their male equivalencies? My apologies that you didn't follow my argument. If you look at low-end employment stats, men are often paid more (see above comments about gardeners and receptionists). Women are often forced to take low paid, part time work due to things like societal pressure, childcare, prejudice during education and so forth. Which means it can be overall harder to find employment for women that will allow them to run their household. In turn this means that women are more likely to look to work like escorting/prostitution (which are the same thing in most cases - escorting is just the 'nice' name that we give to it) because they cannot afford to support themselves and their family (because in addition women are more likely to be single caregiving parents, or carers of older relatives) and have to resort to taking work that fits around the work that they *can* secure. The answer is - of course - to ensure that all jobs have a living wage. That is for certain. But that is not the only answer. We also have to: - Eradicate sexism in schools (for instance we were encouraged into subjects like textiles and shorthand rather than design technology and science at school). - And we have to make it so that it's not considered by employers that a woman in her 20s is a bad choice for employment because she's going to decide to pop out babies (thus costing the company oodles of maternity leave and the cost of paying for replacement staff). - And of course, we have to eradicate the 'laddish banter' (read, sexist banter) in many workplaces (like gardening jobs, logistics jobs, etc) so that women can more easily look at practical jobs like that as a potential career. And those three things are just the tip of an iceberg to be honest. I could have easily listed twenty attitudes that have to change before we can start to see equality. You have to try and empathise with people. Put yourselves in their shoes. Imagine how it feels to be asked at interview if you're planning to have children in the next ten years. Or be told that it's a very blokey workplace and you'll likely be offended by the banter. Or to just be told at the age of 14 that your gender 'isn't really very good at science' and of course 'you don't need university anyway, you're going to just get married and look after kids'. We're failing girls and young women in this country. Over and over again. We're failing to give them, on the whole, an equal start in life through various social factors. Things are changing, and it's no doubt the best that it's ever been in this country, but we have a long way to go until we're all on the same footing." Im not doing your research for you. Do a quick search on young women rejecting feminism. Also your (again) anecdotal evidence of Facebook friends holds no credence. God knows how many women are on mine, but I'm part of the generation where we have 1000's of Facebook friends, i'd guess close to half were women. I have 3 who identify as feminists. People who do gardening as a career rather than a hobby are landscape gardeners.. Your comments about reception work requiring more education and technical skill is entirely subjective, and just incorrect. It's the only thing holding up your argument. I followed your argument perfectly, it just doesn't make logical sense. There are both men and women in low paid jobs, struggling. There are people who manage entirely on benefits. Women have the option of high paid sex work (and more power to them), 99% of men do not. How does that equate to oppression. Prostitution and escorting are not the same thing. At all. Your comments about laddish behaviour are exactly the kind of thing which causes my aversion to most schools of contemporary feminism. Demonising male traits.. for what purpose? The building industry is full of loud, in your face attitudes, swearing, sexual innuendo. Some women feel perfectly comfortable in that environment and flourish. Some don't. Most have no desire to be a builder.. There is absolutely zero evidence of women being pushed down certain paths at school in this day and age. Girls are consistently achieving higher than boys. It is the young men whom the education system is failing! Again all your comments are entirely subjective and heavily grounded in stock feminist rhetoric. I am not even saying you are necessarily wrong, just that you should be open to other ways of thinking. Remember feminism is an ideology, an ideology is a set of BELIEFS, if you are intolerant of someone who has beliefs different to your own, that makes you a bigot. | |||
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" I know exactly how and why feminism sprung up. I fully support the routes of feminism, and the end goals. However i believe the narrative has now become twisted and that is what i do not agree with. That twisted narrative is what gives credence to the majority of contemporary western feminist theory. I think most of this theory creates conflict and division, rather than union, which is what is necessary to effect real change. If you want to discuss elements which I believe have become twisted, i am quite happy to do so. I don't think you have read my previous posts have you? I am not arguing that there is sexism against men in clubs at all.. In fact i said the opposite. With the escorting, there is an argument (and a feminist one at that) which purports that it is actually the empowered female escorts, strippers etc. that are exploiting the men. Not all or even most women feel the same way as you do. My point being that your ideology is not necessarily the reality. " The central tenement of the argument is one of sex clubs in Britain and gender equality for men. You were the one diverting from the argument with your examples of Quatar and driving. Again, I say you as a man may be sympathetic to feminism as you have no experience of being one. Your comments about my ideology not being the same as others demonstrates how a patriarchal society has trained you as a man to not to listen to what women are actually saying, but to stand by what you think they should be saying. The escorting argument was to demonstrate that supply exists in a market to please men, same as sex clubs. Women escorts find it empowering to exploit men, in a market controlled by men where they cater to mens wants. Of course women would want some control and use whatever empowerment they can find. True equality will come when a woman grows up thinking being an escort is a viable career option same as plumber. People always need a plumber, but do they need a sex worker. How many couples advertise for a single woman? Would it not be easier if they could google local escorts and pay for an escort with no hassle. No one judges people for paying a plumber to unblock a toilet that they could do themselves. | |||
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" I am not even saying you are necessarily wrong, just that you should be open to other ways of thinking. Remember feminism is an ideology, an ideology is a set of BELIEFS, if you are intolerant of someone who has beliefs different to your own, that makes you a bigot. " You are arguing against women about what it is to be a woman in modern society? | |||
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"Wow.... Talk about a topic that has been hijacked to push an agenda All well and good talking about semantics and theories... But it doesn't relate to real situations " Wow, just read the whole thing ... could have missed it, as went past it a couple of times thinking it would be a boring thread, that teaches me ... | |||
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"Wow.... Talk about a topic that has been hijacked to push an agenda All well and good talking about semantics and theories... But it doesn't relate to real situations And there was I thinking that it was. "Last word" thread but with only two people in it."
It's all now just semantics to show how clever people are without what people like to call living in the real world
I think compared to the U.S. And Europe... People in the UK don't realise how good they have it regards to price
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"How did it get to this again "Because people who want the system changed aren't always prepared to put money where words lie..... If there are enough people who feel this way let them all club together and investment or build a club.... Hey, let them call it utopia! | |||
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" I'm part of the generation " You're part of MY generation. We're almost the same age. | |||
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" The central tenement of the argument is one of sex clubs in Britain and gender equality for men. You were the one diverting from the argument with your examples of Quatar and driving." You are twisting the narrative of this very debate lol. Please re-read the whole thread. I said i do not think men paying has anything to do with gender, but economic factors (exactly what you are saying, no?) i compared it to similar situations where it is women who are exploited for economic gain. Someone else started going on about feminism. I responded with the comments about the middle east. " Your comments about my ideology not being the same as others " It isn't the same as others, and that is literally all i was saying on that front.. " True equality will come when a woman grows up thinking being an escort is a viable career option same as plumber. People always need a plumber, but do they need a sex worker. How many couples advertise for a single woman? Would it not be easier if they could google local escorts and pay for an escort with no hassle. No one judges people for paying a plumber to unblock a toilet that they could do themselves." Prostitution is the the worlds oldest profession as they say. Its routes are unknown to me or you. Did women realise the raw sexual power which they held over men, and use this as a way of bartering for resources? Or did men force them into it from the start. Nobody on this planet can answer that question. One thing is for certain, at some point a few unscrupulous men have realised the lucrative nature of the industry and exploited and oppressed millions of women historically. As i have said earlier though, you are picking one side of what is effectively a chicken or egg argument, and presenting it as fact. | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ? There was a club that let in a set number of single guys on a certain night. To get in you had to phone in advance and get your name down by quoting your membership number. That's us
So a club sets a limit and you have to phone to book. What happens when half those who phoned don't show up? There's less single men and some of those who would have liked to have gone can't.
And how is the limit set when unless couples and single females are also booking, you can't calculate the ratios?
The first come, first in argument? Would people honestly travel miles, pay for taxis/drinks etc in the hope of getting in with no guarantee? The odds are the single guys will get there early to ensure entry and for the first hour or so the club will resemble a working mans club of the past. When the first couples/women arrive they'll be greeted with the sight of unequal ratios which will potentially give a false impression of the club and may even result in them leaving.
I've yet to visit a club that is short of single guys. So whilst there are plenty of vocal disgruntled men on the forums stating 'it's unfair' and 'I'll never go to clubs' it seems there are far more that are happy to, enjoy the club scene, and who have way less of an issue with membership/entry fees.
A"More men than women want to go to clubs that's the sole basis of the pricing policy. More men means more chance of ones prepared to pay through the nose. I've seen a fair few women in the forums say they wouldn't go if they had to pay male prices. | |||
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" The central tenement of the argument is one of sex clubs in Britain and gender equality for men. You were the one diverting from the argument with your examples of Quatar and driving. You are twisting the narrative of this very debate lol. Please re-read the whole thread. I said i do not think men paying has anything to do with gender, but economic factors (exactly what you are saying, no?) i compared it to similar situations where it is women who are exploited for economic gain. Someone else started going on about feminism. I responded with the comments about the middle east. Your comments about my ideology not being the same as others It isn't the same as others, and that is literally all i was saying on that front.. True equality will come when a woman grows up thinking being an escort is a viable career option same as plumber. People always need a plumber, but do they need a sex worker. How many couples advertise for a single woman? Would it not be easier if they could google local escorts and pay for an escort with no hassle. No one judges people for paying a plumber to unblock a toilet that they could do themselves. Prostitution is the the worlds oldest profession as they say. Its routes are unknown to me or you. Did women realise the raw sexual power which they held over men, and use this as a way of bartering for resources? Or did men force them into it from the start. Nobody on this planet can answer that question. One thing is for certain, at some point a few unscrupulous men have realised the lucrative nature of the industry and exploited and oppressed millions of women historically. As i have said earlier though, you are picking one side of what is effectively a chicken or egg argument, and presenting it as fact. " I think we will never agree and have reached an impasse.. Also I am bored | |||
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" I'm part of the generation You're part of MY generation. We're almost the same age." Ive no idea how old you are.. You just don't have as many friends as me on Facebook then, either way my point still stands.. | |||
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" Also I am bored" Agreed | |||
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"Fuck my feminist principles, I have a headache from all that typing I think a jaccuzzi at chams will cure it "It's threads like these that make you think who you would be happy to share a jacuzzi with. Enjoy yourself | |||
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"On that basis if it's a private members club,can the race /gender/sexual orientation discrimination acts be ignored?? " Pretty much yes although they would have to be careful. | |||
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"Oh god not again!!! Moderators, please cull these posts!!! If you do a search in the forums search box you will get no end of answers there. We can do it, it's legal. Please read the other threads and lets not go into this AGAIN! "I'm restraining myself from saying any more.
But any can feel free to Green Arrow me for the last time this was discussed. | |||
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"if on a particular night say the club is nowwhere near capacity why on earth would a club not then allow single men in to fill it up. In essence clubs hide behind the myth of the ratio to single men to women and couples to rip single men off whereas in fact its about poor managent or lack of willingness to be fair. Two points we can strongly disagree with, filling a club with single guys is not a very clever way to go, and having had 52 single male applications this weekend, 17 couple ones, and 1 single lady one, we feel the ratio argument is quite a strong one!" I don't think many disagree with managing the ratios. It's managing by the method of price differentials that is the complaint. And, from your own figures, it's not really working that well. | |||
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"I did a search for similar threads on a home computer and leRned more. Also some points raised on this thread was not on others. So the 'thread facists' who want to remove or censor discussions they personally don't like or bored off, simply ignore or go to another thread" I think that's a little bit disingenuous to call them 'thread fascists'. It's more I think an almost tongue-in-cheek "OMG! not this bloody done to death subject again". | |||
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"I have become so accustomed to being overcharged as a single with holidays/hotels etc I just accept it as being unfair but one of those things. I believe someone will come up with a better deal for singles and still make a profit.. As for sex clubs etc , I found it best to hook up with a partner (opposite gender works best) &go as a couple.." Hmm interesting. Would 2 blokes going as a couple pay couple price or 2x single male? Potential can of worms right there. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. It can be both 'sexist' and 'business'. " I made that same point in the last thread on this subject. " And I agree with your second point. I'm not interested in going places that treat me as bait." I think a far better line of attack is that it's not good business rather than that it's sexist. | |||
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" Yes, and it's my personal belief that those things make both of your points sexism. It's not 'apparent' sexism, it IS sexism. Well no it is 'apparent' because if you analyse the mechanisms leading to these sexist institutions, there is no prejudice. Just people capitalising on the very dynamics of human nature. Which as I have said previously is still immoral in my opinion. Sexism is prejudice OR discrimination OR stereotyping against someone due to their sex/gender. Charging men more for entrance to clubs is discrimination. Using women as bait for selling newspapers and getting single men into clubs is stereotyping negatively. Both are sexist. And as you say, quite morally wrong. Saying they're not sexist is just helping people to shove the problems under the rug and pretend that they don't exist." Strongly and totally agree with this. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. It can be both 'sexist' and 'business'. I made that same point in the last thread on this subject. And I agree with your second point. I'm not interested in going places that treat me as bait. I think a far better line of attack is that it's not good business rather than that it's sexist." i think it's about choice if u don't like what a clubs doing etc don't go . | |||
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"I did a search for similar threads on a home computer and leRned more. Also some points raised on this thread was not on others. So the 'thread facists' who want to remove or censor discussions they personally don't like or bored off, simply ignore or go to another thread I think that's a little bit disingenuous to call them 'thread fascists'. It's more I think an almost tongue-in-cheek "OMG! not this bloody done to death subject again"." There are such things as thread fascists though, they come out on various threads, and need to be silenced, in my humble opinion, just as one of the mods said, always someone new here and many of these 'yawn' and 'not again' comments can be intimidating (I know, I know, people should not be intimidated, but some are, and why should they be put in that position) Just saying | |||
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"if on a particular night say the club is nowwhere near capacity why on earth would a club not then allow single men in to fill it up. In essence clubs hide behind the myth of the ratio to single men to women and couples to rip single men off whereas in fact its about poor managent or lack of willingness to be fair. Two points we can strongly disagree with, filling a club with single guys is not a very clever way to go, and having had 52 single male applications this weekend, 17 couple ones, and 1 single lady one, we feel the ratio argument is quite a strong one! I don't think many disagree with managing the ratios. It's managing by the method of price differentials that is the complaint. And, from your own figures, it's not really working that well." The ratio inside the club is working extremely well thank you! | |||
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"I did a search for similar threads on a home computer and leRned more. Also some points raised on this thread was not on others. So the 'thread facists' who want to remove or censor discussions they personally don't like or bored off, simply ignore or go to another thread I think that's a little bit disingenuous to call them 'thread fascists'. It's more I think an almost tongue-in-cheek "OMG! not this bloody done to death subject again"." I have to disagree with you on that one. just as much as I disagree with the word fascists too. | |||
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"Maybe clubs are trying to offset the gender pay gap that still exists.......
There are inequalities more unfair than single men paying more to get in a sex club, especially ones that don't have the element of choice!!
That whole gender pay gay thing is such a disingenuous argument. Statistics gathered by academic 'feminists', used to intentionally mislead. For the same job, with the same level of experience there is no pay gap!
Those studies which say otherwise either compare the earnings of a female graduate with a senior male in the same line of work. Or the overall earnings of both genders, without taking into account the type of work which is carried out. As the old saying goes; there are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics.
And here we have the classic denial response combined with belittling the wealth of evidence in this area by an individual benefitting from the status quo. Note the pejorative way he uses the term 'feminist'. Still, these threads are good for bringing out into the light the veiled misogynist. "I don't think it's misogynistic to ask whether the pay gap exists because of a bias in society, bias in choice of jobs woman may tend to choose or employers still taking advantage of the fact that the woman's wage, if any, was often a second income. If we don't keep the possible reasons for the pay gap open to discussion then we're unlikely to come up with the correct response to solve it. | |||
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"Define tight entrance policy please. First ten men at the door ? Ten oldest or youngest ? Fittest ten (by whose definition). Would travel miles to a club with the chance you might not even get in ?" Lots of normal clubs use the method without too much problem. | |||
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"If it's down to poor management as stated in a previous post, are all clubs badly managed then? If you don't like the fee, don't go. It's not like you are being forced to pay " I don't think the "don't like don't go" argument is any more valid here than anywhere else. It's not like there is a choice just down the road where the price is the same. It's even more out of place when conning from someone who is actually having the advantage of the discrimination. | |||
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" Am I less of a feminist because I don't drive a car in Quatar? I'm not going to answer your leading question. If you have a point I will gladly discuss.
It is a question, I used your examples.
But if you need it expanded...
You marginalise any movement made by a woman to assert herself as a feminist because she does not fit your male viewpoint of what a feminist should be.
Do you not see the ridiculousness of this?
We live in a patriarchal society and gender is a social construct of that society. Women are not born attached to a kitchen sink nor are born barbie like ready to sleep with men. They are forced to fight against this stereotype everyday of their lives.
So my point is a woman can be an escort and still be a feminist. The men in society see a dirty whore, feminists will see a person who does a tough job in a tough economy where demand is fuelled by mens wants.
""Men will see..." What? We all have just the one set of eyes do we. No men are able to see things different from any other? A rather insulting stereotype I'd have thought. | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change. "I think a lot of the nicer guys already do to a greater or lesser extent. The clubs may realise that before it's too late but they may not. | |||
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"Supply and demand is your answer. It's not sexist, it's just business. In the same vein that page three isn't sexist, but business. Both are morally wrong though in my opinion. I find the swingers club entry price for single men slightly unsettling, because it seems very close to pimping out the females in the club. Allowing females in for free as 'bait' for men willing to pay 50 quid a pop.. It can be both 'sexist' and 'business'. I made that same point in the last thread on this subject. And I agree with your second point. I'm not interested in going places that treat me as bait. I think a far better line of attack is that it's not good business rather than that it's sexist.i think it's about choice if u don't like what a clubs doing etc don't go . " It's only a real choice of there is another club near by doing it differently. When the choice is one thing or no think that's a Hobson' choice (no real choice at all). | |||
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"if on a particular night say the club is nowwhere near capacity why on earth would a club not then allow single men in to fill it up. In essence clubs hide behind the myth of the ratio to single men to women and couples to rip single men off whereas in fact its about poor managent or lack of willingness to be fair. Two points we can strongly disagree with, filling a club with single guys is not a very clever way to go, and having had 52 single male applications this weekend, 17 couple ones, and 1 single lady one, we feel the ratio argument is quite a strong one! I don't think many disagree with managing the ratios. It's managing by the method of price differentials that is the complaint. And, from your own figures, it's not really working that well.The ratio inside the club is working extremely well thank you! " No need to thank me, I'm not running your business, you are. I'm just posting comments on a forum thread. | |||
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" Am I less of a feminist because I don't drive a car in Quatar? I'm not going to answer your leading question. If you have a point I will gladly discuss.
It is a question, I used your examples.
But if you need it expanded...
You marginalise any movement made by a woman to assert herself as a feminist because she does not fit your male viewpoint of what a feminist should be.
Do you not see the ridiculousness of this?
We live in a patriarchal society and gender is a social construct of that society. Women are not born attached to a kitchen sink nor are born barbie like ready to sleep with men. They are forced to fight against this stereotype everyday of their lives.
So my point is a woman can be an escort and still be a feminist. The men in society see a dirty whore, feminists will see a person who does a tough job in a tough economy where demand is fuelled by mens wants.
"Men will see..."
What? We all have just the one set of eyes do we. No men are able to see things different from any other? A rather insulting stereotype I'd have thought."Not really, can I go onto google and pick out which escort I want to hire in a straight forward manner without bullshit such as I am only paying for time of the escort etc. No, because we live in a society run by men and women have to work in the sex industry in a shady manner as men dictate that prostitution is something to be ashamed of. So you can be as offended as you want, not going to change the sex industry is it? Unless you are actively campaigning for a change on the law on prostitution. Oh and to answer your question I have just done a dissertation on this subject which I will be using to ask for a change in the laws as the Tories wish to switch to the Swedish model. | |||
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"Men if you don't like the club pricing policies. Why don't all men boycott the clubs? Hit these clubs were it hurts. Then you will see a change.
I think a lot of the nicer guys already do to a greater or lesser extent. The clubs may realise that before it's too late but they may not."Does that mean you are not a nice guy?! hehehe | |||
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" Not really, can I go onto google and pick out which escort I want to hire in a straight forward manner without bullshit such as I am only paying for time of the escort etc. No, because we live in a society run by men and women have to work in the sex industry in a shady manner as men dictate that prostitution is something to be ashamed of. " You should probably do a google search before you make entirely fallacious claims.. | |||
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" Am I less of a feminist because I don't drive a car in Quatar? I'm not going to answer your leading question. If you have a point I will gladly discuss.
It is a question, I used your examples.
But if you need it expanded...
You marginalise any movement made by a woman to assert herself as a feminist because she does not fit your male viewpoint of what a feminist should be.
Do you not see the ridiculousness of this?
We live in a patriarchal society and gender is a social construct of that society. Women are not born attached to a kitchen sink nor are born barbie like ready to sleep with men. They are forced to fight against this stereotype everyday of their lives.
So my point is a woman can be an escort and still be a feminist. The men in society see a dirty whore, feminists will see a person who does a tough job in a tough economy where demand is fuelled by mens wants.
"Men will see..."
What? We all have just the one set of eyes do we. No men are able to see things different from any other? A rather insulting stereotype I'd have thought.
Not really, can I go onto google and pick out which escort I want to hire in a straight forward manner without bullshit such as I am only paying for time of the escort etc. No, because we live in a society run by men and women have to work in the sex industry in a shady manner as men dictate that prostitution is something to be ashamed of.
So you can be as offended as you want, not going to change the sex industry is it? Unless you are actively campaigning for a change on the law on prostitution.
Oh and to answer your question I have just done a dissertation on this subject which I will be using to ask for a change in the laws as the Tories wish to switch to the Swedish model."I don't know what question of mine you think your answering but this answer don't answer any questions I believe I've asked. I'm also sorry to point it out to you but your comment that all men see escorts as nothing more than a dirty whore is an inaccurate stereotype of men's views. I am a man (or at least male) and it's not my view. But no need to be sorry that you may of offended me. I'm not even slightly offended. However I do think you comments are not only insulting to males as a whole but also insult your own argument, which, on the whole, are otherwise quite well made, even if I don't fully agree with them. | |||
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" No need to thank me, I'm not running your business, you are. I'm just posting comments on a forum thread." But in a way you glibly hit the point the idealists forget... At the end of the day it is still a business... And it's all well and good saying they should do this and that... But it's not your money on the line at the end of the day There is nothing at the end of the day for single women to say to clubs I want to be charged as a single man if the principles are that important to them.... In fact please do! And again if people feel it's wrong all club together, put your money on the line and open this mythical club.... In fact please do! | |||
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" Not really, can I go onto google and pick out which escort I want to hire in a straight forward manner without bullshit such as I am only paying for time of the escort etc. No, because we live in a society run by men and women have to work in the sex industry in a shady manner as men dictate that prostitution is something to be ashamed of. You should probably do a google search before you make entirely fallacious claims.. " I mean can I do so without fear of being arrested, or breaking some random law? There is much risk to the client and the sex worker. Don't think plumbers get trafficked | |||
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" No need to thank me, I'm not running your business, you are. I'm just posting comments on a forum thread. But in a way you glibly hit the point the idealists forget... At the end of the day it is still a business... And it's all well and good saying they should do this and that... But it's not your money on the line at the end of the day There is nothing at the end of the day for single women to say to clubs I want to be charged as a single man if the principles are that important to them.... In fact please do! And again if people feel it's wrong all club together, put your money on the line and open this mythical club.... In fact please do!" I wasn't being glib. I totally accept that they have a business to run and it's their money on the line, not mine. Whilst I post my opinion on here it is just an opinion. It really is up to them if they want to consider it or not. | |||
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" Am I less of a feminist because I don't drive a car in Quatar? I'm not going to answer your leading question. If you have a point I will gladly discuss.
It is a question, I used your examples.
But if you need it expanded...
You marginalise any movement made by a woman to assert herself as a feminist because she does not fit your male viewpoint of what a feminist should be.
Do you not see the ridiculousness of this?
We live in a patriarchal society and gender is a social construct of that society. Women are not born attached to a kitchen sink nor are born barbie like ready to sleep with men. They are forced to fight against this stereotype everyday of their lives.
So my point is a woman can be an escort and still be a feminist. The men in society see a dirty whore, feminists will see a person who does a tough job in a tough economy where demand is fuelled by mens wants.
"Men will see..."
What? We all have just the one set of eyes do we. No men are able to see things different from any other? A rather insulting stereotype I'd have thought.
Not really, can I go onto google and pick out which escort I want to hire in a straight forward manner without bullshit such as I am only paying for time of the escort etc. No, because we live in a society run by men and women have to work in the sex industry in a shady manner as men dictate that prostitution is something to be ashamed of.
So you can be as offended as you want, not going to change the sex industry is it? Unless you are actively campaigning for a change on the law on prostitution.
Oh and to answer your question I have just done a dissertation on this subject which I will be using to ask for a change in the laws as the Tories wish to switch to the Swedish model.
I don't know what question of mine you think your answering but this answer don't answer any questions I believe I've asked.
I'm also sorry to point it out to you but your comment that all men see escorts as nothing more than a dirty whore is an inaccurate stereotype of men's views. I am a man (or at least male) and it's not my view.
But no need to be sorry that you may of offended me. I'm not even slightly offended. However I do think you comments are not only insulting to males as a whole but also insult your own argument, which, on the whole, are otherwise quite well made, even if I don't fully agree with them."Read back through the comments that I replied to as the person was stating the opinion that only real feminists must be in countries in complete hardship. My point was how as a man can he state this when he does not know what a woman faces in this country. The example used was one of sex workers, tis a market created for men by men as women are a commodity. | |||
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" No need to thank me, I'm not running your business, you are. I'm just posting comments on a forum thread. But in a way you glibly hit the point the idealists forget... At the end of the day it is still a business... And it's all well and good saying they should do this and that... But it's not your money on the line at the end of the day There is nothing at the end of the day for single women to say to clubs I want to be charged as a single man if the principles are that important to them.... In fact please do! And again if people feel it's wrong all club together, put your money on the line and open this mythical club.... In fact please do!" I would gladly pay as much as the single men - if the single men in the club understood that I was not a commodity to be obtained. But if they believe I paid less, then they are quite likely to treat me this way. Club entry for men is 'reassuringly expensive'. | |||
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" You should probably do a google search before you make entirely fallacious claims.. I mean can I do so without fear of being arrested, or breaking some random law? There is much risk to the client and the sex worker. Don't think plumbers get trafficked "There are a host of websites, you can use perfectly safely and securely to pick and choose escorts. The escorts can even see ratings of the potential clients, which makes things safer for them.. I used to have a profile on one and do a bit of web camming work when i was 18.. This is my exact point. You have made claims which are wildly inaccurate, and you believe them purely due to your own self indoctrination. Some women aren't feminists, some men are. Although you don't like it, a man can legitimately disagree with (some, not all of) your ideology. | |||
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" I don't know what question of mine you think your answering but this answer don't answer any questions I believe I've asked. " Haha! Sorry, that made me laugh. | |||
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" You should probably do a google search before you make entirely fallacious claims.. I mean can I do so without fear of being arrested, or breaking some random law? There is much risk to the client and the sex worker. Don't think plumbers get trafficked
There are a host of websites, you can use perfectly safely and securely to pick and choose escorts. The escorts can even see ratings of the potential clients, which makes things safer for them.. I used to have a profile on one and do a bit of web camming work when i was 18..
This is my exact point. You have made claims which are wildly inaccurate, and you believe them purely due to your own self indoctrination.
Some women aren't feminists, some men are. Although you don't like it, a man can legitimately disagree with (some, not all of) your ideology.
"But how do you know these girls aren't been controlled by an agency, how do you know these girls aren't being controlled by drugs, how do you know they aren't being beaten, how do you know they practise safe sex? No you see the ratings of a few satisfied customers. Do the girls get a pention, do they get health care, do they get paid holidays? No you see what you want you want to see as you have a male perspective. I never claimed that my arguments were correct only the ones you were spouting were not as you have no idea what it is to be what you are talking about. | |||
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" How many men get chased round clubs Benny Hill style by loads of women? " Happens to me all the time, I hate it, especially when they play that stupid music at the same time | |||
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" How many men get chased round clubs Benny Hill style by loads of women? Happens to me all the time, I hate it, especially when they play that stupid music at the same time "Wish they would stop dropping used condoms around the fecking clubs | |||
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" How many men get chased round clubs Benny Hill style by loads of women? Happens to me all the time, I hate it, especially when they play that stupid music at the same time
Wish they would stop dropping used condoms around the fecking clubs "And the deathly quiet with the jingling of keys is creepy when your playing lol | |||
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"The club system is completely skewed in a mans favour. Some clubs employ working girls, some offer free entry for women, some control the guest list...all has the same effect of producing women for those lucky few men. How many men get chased round clubs Benny Hill style by loads of women, how many men have brought a woman to a club and tried to play with a woman publicly only to walk off in disgust because of the amount of women wanking around them? " I only know of 3 clubs in the UK that employ working girls.... So would you like to walk that allegation back a bit It sounds more like a scare/fear mongering going on to try and back up your point | |||
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